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luisde8cd
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Joined: Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:02 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:13 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 49):
Well the short answer is :shoot them down But most likely the poor Sukhoi's would be smoking on the tarmac before they were employed. If hostilities ever broke out between the US and Venezuela, militarily it would be a short affair.

Yes. They would never see the Tomahawks coming from the Caribbean.

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 49):
Fighting a land war would be different of course , Venezuela has tough terrain ideal for insurgent warfare.

Regretfully yes. Chavez plans to have a 1 million strong civilian militia armed with AK47s "his private guerrilla". In case of an invasion, I'm sure he'd get support from the Colombian guerrillas and it will be a very complicated war for the US.

Nevertheless, I think that if the US invades, nobody will give a shit about it and won't bother to take the AK47s to fight the marines. The people that support Chavez do it because of the money he hands out. They won't risk their lives fighting a superior military force to save his ass.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
Dougloid
Posts: 7248
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:29 am

Hey, Luis....don't sweat it. There are a lot of fellers down your way that like to 'beard the yanqui' but it's all in a day's work. Senor Chavez must have his fifteen minutes of fame amd some very expensive toys. Bad government sucks. We have plenty of the home grown variety.

One thing that the Russians aren't the greatest at with their product lineup is good 'hot and high' performance. Friend of mine was a tech rep for Northrop over in Saudi, one day they tell him, you're going to Sanaa in Yemen, support some F5s the Saudis are giving to the government down there. So this dude ends up in Yemen, where he's on one side of the field and a crew of Cubans is supporting the MiGs on the other side of the airfield. So the Cubans with their MiGs have to do all their missions early in the morning because they can't get airborne in the heat of the day. They were pissed, and he'd wave at them from the back seat when they were off on a training ride.

Saludos desde Des Moines, Iowa.
If you believe in coincidence, you haven't looked close enough-Joe Leaphorn
 
LMP737
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:48 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 51):
Regretfully yes. Chavez plans to have a 1 million strong civilian militia armed with AK47s "his private guerrilla".

Sounds more like a private army of enforcers to me. In the end I have a bad feeling that's what they might end up being used for when the "expected" yanqui invasion never comes.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 48):

I noticed that old Hugo was recently in Belarus paying tribute to their president who is commonly refered to as "Europe's last dictator".

He planned to continue from Belarus to the DPR Korea ("North Korea") but according to some govt sources, he was convinced by his closest advisors to suspend the visit because of the missile crisis.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:46 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 51):
I think that if the US invades

Luis, this just ain't gonna happen. No way will a drop of blood of a single US Marine is going to get spilled for VZ. Just no way.

You boys are going to have to get rid of him yourself, or learn to live with him.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 1:59 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

FAV vs. FACh or FAB, it would be a good match. My $$$ is on Brasil

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
What are you trying so suggest?

That the age of the picture would put the US and Venezuela in a different political climate, and that it is a crappy picture. You take it?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
You guys can take over the whole world if you'd like.

I'd rather not, but it is nice to know the option is there. Americans should focus on American problems.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
I respect your opinion, but I still stand with mine.

Why shouldn't you? Venezuela is your country. I am not crazy about our leader, but the public elected him. Dubya is in charge for now and I am comfortable respecting the office.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
Now we are in the same league as N Korea, Iran, Syria, etc...

I don't think so, but if Hugo wants to get himself some nukes, then the whole situation will escalate.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 55):
You boys are going to have to get rid of him yourself, or learn to live with him.

I've heard that somewhere else...

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 56):
That the age of the picture would put the US and Venezuela in a different political climate, and that it is a crappy picture. You take it?

And who said it was a recent picture? I fail to find such statement in this thread. Question... what are we discussing here? The quality of a picture showing a F15 and a F16 or the new SU-30MKs that Chavez is buying from the russians?

Someone asked who had trained the FAV pilots and I replied: French and US Air Forces. The pic was meant to show cooperation between the USAF and FAV. As I have stressed in previous posts, this happened in the past and isn't what's going on right now.

That's something you should be proud about... the great USAF pilots did an excellent job training their Venezuelan counterparts. I don't know why is it so hard for you to realize that fact and you vent your frustration by bitching about the quality of a picture  banghead 

Quoting Migfan (Reply 56):
FAV vs. FACh or FAB, it would be a good match. My $$$ is on Brasil

Thankfully Latin America is one of the world's peaceful regions so those matches will never occur and if they did, I would gladly put my $$ on the FAV. LatAm hasn't seen a major conflict between its country for decades. The only exception is the Colombian Civil War.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 56):
I don't think so, but if Hugo wants to get himself some nukes, then the whole situation will escalate.

He won't. But we are still branded as part of a new "axis of evil" which doesn't require that the govt. is making nukes to be part of it.
 
RAPCON
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:33 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
Thankfully Latin America is one of the world's peaceful regions so those matches will never occur and if they did, I would gladly put my $$ on the FAV. LatAm hasn't seen a major conflict between its country for decades. The only exception is the Colombian Civil War

1. Overall peace has occurred mainly because of the existence of that big country in "El Norte" which has to give permission for two countries to have a war in the American continent. No permission, no war!

2. I've exercised with all the major South American AF/Navies and my very learned and experienced military money is on the FaCH, by a wide margin.

3. You've forgotten a lot of other civil/guerrilla wars (ex: Peru, Arg, Bolivia, Nicaragua I, Nicaragua II, Nicaragua III, Guatemala, etc.) , and some miniscule border conflicts (ex: Peru/Ecuador, Soccer War, etc.).
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:13 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
I don't know why is it so hard for you to realize that fact and you vent your frustration by bitching about the quality of a picture

Forget it, you missed the point...

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
But we are still branded as part of a new "axis of evil"

Aww, poor evil person...  cry 

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
aislepathlight
Posts: 549
Joined: Tue Dec 27, 2005 5:44 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:27 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 49):

Well the short answer is :shoot them down But most likely the poor Sukhoi's would be smoking on the tarmac before they were employed. If hostilities ever broke out between the US and Venezuela, militarily it would be a short affair. Fighting a land war would be different of course , Venezuela has tough terrain ideal for insurgent warfare.

We have no reason to fight with them... for now. Anyway, we have to rap up our current military ops before we go on.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

Would you want to get Mainstays? They suck, but they are AWACS
bleepbloop
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 7:32 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 47):
I have Polish cousins, does that count?

No! You must steal a car. Then you'll be a part of the club...if you manage to get ILS's illusive BMW with the KIA interior, you'll be President of Poland.  Wink

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
Ok we can disagree here again. 30 Su-30mk + 22 F16 + 23 F5s + 16 Mirage 50 add up 91 fighter aircraft. Which is a very impresive number for a 25 million population country. The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

Yes, but what is the condition of the F-16s, F-5s, and Mirages? Indeed, a healthy number...but Chavez is looking to these Sukhois since he can't get spares from the US.

Any idea what Chavez's real goal behind this militarization is? Colombia? Guys like these get these kinds of toys usually with the express intent of using them...

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
Lumberton
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:51 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
Someone asked who had trained the FAV pilots and I replied: French and US Air Forces. The pic was meant to show cooperation between the USAF and FAV. As I have stressed in previous posts, this happened in the past and isn't what's going on right now.

Well said. Regretably true.  worried 

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
Thankfully Latin America is one of the world's peaceful regions so those matches will never occur and if they did, I would gladly put my $$ on the FAV. LatAm hasn't seen a major conflict between its country for decades. The only exception is the Colombian Civil War.

True. However, I'm concerned with the situation in Bolivia with the nationalization of the gas fields. So far, Brazil seems to be resorting to diplomacy. Hopefull this will be resolved.

IMO, the SU-30s cannot be construed as a threat to the U.S. Either Mr. Chavez is making a political statement, they are destined for someone else (Cuba?), or this is actually the future of the FAV. If the latter, it will take some time to procure, train the pilots, maintenance crews, and develop operational doctrine and tactics for the local environment. I see a lot of doubt on this thread, but this is one superb aircraft. It looks like Venezuela is getting an incredible deal if USD$1 billion is all they are paying for the SU-30MKs and the helos.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
F4N
Posts: 507
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:26 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 62):
IMO, the SU-30s cannot be construed as a threat to the U.S. Either Mr. Chavez is making a political statement, they are destined for someone else (Cuba?), or this is actually the future of the FAV.

To all:

I would suggest that Chavez is making another political statement with the acquisition of the Sukhois, just as he did with the attempted purchase of naval vessels and C-295's from Spain. He knows that he will get an (over) reaction from the Bush team. He appears to like that.

I doubt that they are intended for a third party. Russia has never been shy about supplying warplanes to Cuba before, so why attempt a covert, third party sale now?

I seriously doubt that Chavez has any concrete plans for aggression. I do not think his country would blindly follow him to war against a neighbor for no good reason and I do not think that the regional powers would sit idly by and tolerate such a thing.

The Sukhois represent a blandishment of Chavez' power, albeit an expensive and unnecessary one at that. However, every strongman likes military equipment. Chavez is no different. The FAV will fly SU-30's.

regards,

F4N
 
luisde8cd
Posts: 2444
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 58):
3. You've forgotten a lot of other civil/guerrilla wars (ex: Peru, Arg, Bolivia, Nicaragua I, Nicaragua II, Nicaragua III, Guatemala, etc.) , and some miniscule border conflicts (ex: Peru/Ecuador, Soccer War, etc.).

You are correct. I didnt name them because they weren't as important as Colombia's which is still happening.

When you compare the overall picture with other continents, I think LatAm is the continent less affected by wars during the last century. That's the point I'm trying to make.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 61):
Any idea what Chavez's real goal behind this militarization is? Colombia? Guys like these get these kinds of toys usually with the express intent of using them...

I don't think Chavez is planning to use them to attack a country. It's just a waste of my taxpayer's money to make a political statement and pretend that by buying from Russia he will piss off the Bush administration. That's all.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 62):

IMO, the SU-30s cannot be construed as a threat to the U.S. Either Mr. Chavez is making a political statement

 checkmark 

Quoting F4N (Reply 63):
I would suggest that Chavez is making another political statement with the acquisition of the Sukhois, just as he did with the attempted purchase of naval vessels and C-295's from Spain. He knows that he will get an (over) reaction from the Bush team. He appears to like that.

 checkmark 

Quoting F4N (Reply 63):
I seriously doubt that Chavez has any concrete plans for aggression. I do not think his country would blindly follow him to war against a neighbor for no good reason and I do not think that the regional powers would sit idly by and tolerate such a thing.

 checkmark 

Quoting F4N (Reply 63):
The Sukhois represent a blandishment of Chavez' power, albeit an expensive and unnecessary one at that. However, every strongman likes military equipment. Chavez is no different. The FAV will fly SU-30's.

 checkmark 

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis
 
A342
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Jul 27, 2006 4:47 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 52):
One thing that the Russians aren't the greatest at with their product lineup is good 'hot and high' performance.

So how do you think they could successfully operate on the southern border of the Soviet Union, with its hot climate and high mountains ?
In fact, some Soviet aircraft have a kick-ass hot and high performance, like the An-32.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 60):
Would you want to get Mainstays? They suck

How do you come to this conclusion ? Maybe the original Russian equipment isn't the best, but the examples recently delivered to India, with Israeli equipment, should be one of the best products you can get in the AWACS sector.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
aislepathlight
Posts: 549
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:08 am

Quoting A342 (Reply 65):
Maybe the original Russian equipment isn't the best, but the examples recently delivered to India, with Israeli equipment, should be one of the best products you can get in the AWACS sector.

Presumably, they (Chavez) will get their mainstays straite from Russia, if they are to get them. You would imagine that they would be really cheap, so they get the bare minimum.

The Russians aren't gonna give all thier stuff away.
bleepbloop
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Jul 27, 2006 6:42 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 64):
I don't think Chavez is planning to use them to attack a country. It's just a waste of my taxpayer's money to make a political statement and pretend that by buying from Russia he will piss off the Bush administration. That's all.

I certainly hope so...but he may feel inclined to argue that he's "liberating" South America from US influence.

You're probably right though...he's just a prick. Hopefully it'll stay that way and the Venezuelan people can get rid of him.

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
Joined: Mon Jul 03, 2006 7:20 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:50 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 63):
I would suggest that Chavez is making another political statement with the acquisition of the Sukhois, just as he did with the attempted purchase of naval vessels and C-295's from Spain.

Well I don't know what the whole fuss was about the naval vessels, a bunch of Coast Guard-type of units with very little armament, and a bunch of C-295's that are probably going to replace the always-broke POS G222's that the VZ's have. There is nothing absolutely close to bellicosity in those two purchases.

Unfortunately the policy towards that purchase was absolutely erroneous because of the US position was created by:

1.) Donald "REMF" Rummsfeld--tough talking, but the boy was a complete REMF while in the USN; and

2.) A bunch of non-uniform wearing boneheads with Ivy League degrees working at that cesspool known as "Foggy Bottom" (State Department) who do not know a rifle from a rutabaga.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
CTR
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Jul 27, 2006 8:10 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 64):
I don't think Chavez is planning to use them to attack a country. It's just a waste of my taxpayer's money to make a political statement ....l.

I believe many intelligent people said the same thing 70 years ago about a charismatic man of the people in Germany.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 64):
When you compare the overall picture with other continents, I think LatAm is the continent less affected by wars during the last century. That's the point I'm trying to make.

There is alot of pent up resentment between many of the nations in Latin America just waiting for a spark. Bolivia and Chile is just one example of people still willing to spill blood over a war that was fought a century ago.

The question you need to ask, if Chavez decides to occupy Bolivia for their own protection (at Morales invitation of course), and then proceeds to move into Chile. Who will stop him?

Yes, I agree this sounds crazy now. But crazy history repeats itself...

Take care,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
Mariscal35
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Jul 28, 2006 6:05 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):

Ok we can disagree here again. 30 Su-30mk + 22 F16 + 23 F5s + 16 Mirage 50 add up 91 fighter aircraft. Which is a very impresive number for a 25 million population country. The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

I agree. When the whole contingent of new Russian combat aircraft arrives, Venezuela will have the most potent airforce in Latin America, mainly due to their air superiority fighters. The only country able to match this capability in the region is the FAP, with their Mirage 2000 and Su-27.
"El partido no estuvo ni bueno ni malo, sino todo lo contrario" Nixon Carcelen
 
RAPCON
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Jul 28, 2006 9:30 pm

Quoting Mariscal35 (Reply 70):
FAP, with their Mirage 2000 and Su-27.

#1. FAP does not have SU-27's! They have MiG29's, and only 10 flyable M2000.
#2. Most of the FAP is usually down.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Jul 29, 2006 2:42 am

From another source, the breakdown is 24 jet fighters and 53 helicopters, packaged with other military equipment for a total order of $3B over 18 months.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi....RMo41MOa9dUAAHN9xZQ&modele=jdc_34

The report did not state when deliveries would be, though.  scratchchin 
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Lumberton
Posts: 4176
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:24 am

Here's another:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...opters-et-al-from-russia/index.php

Quote:
here have been a series of reports from a number of sources that Venezuela has finalized a deal with Russian arms manufacturers. Those reports have now shifted the total from $1 billion to around $3 billion, and expand its focus beyond SU-30MK2 (Mnogafunctunali Kommercial 2-seat) long-range multi-role fighters and various Russian helicopters to include other equipment as well. The final deal is reportedly still being negotiated...
While reports vary, it seems apparent that Venezuela has bought between 24-30 SU-30MK2s, a multi-role 2-seat variant of the fighter with substantial air-air and air-ground capabilities. It is not the most advanced Russian fighter developed; it lacks the canard foreplanes or thrust vectoring of more advanced variants like India's SU-30MKI, or Sukhoi's new variants the SU-34 strike aircraft or SU-37 fighter that are waiting for procurement orders. Having said that, SU-30MK2s as a base platform are the equal of China's most advanced SU-30MKKK2s, and equal to or better than most SU-30 variants currently serving in Russia.


Edit: more from the article which I found of interest:

Quote:
The order provides some answers via its choice between MiG-29 and SU-30 aircraft. A posture that sought to defend Venezuela above all else would arguably have been better served by buying a larger quantity of MiG-29 lightweight fighters - perhaps even the new thrust-vectoring, multi-role MiG-29OVT/MiG-35 - for the same amount of money. This would still have given Chavez the best combat aircraft in Latin America, with the ability to carry the same sophisticated air-air armament as the SU-30s, and greater air-air combat capabilities than any carrier-borne US fighter. The ability to conduct precision attacks locally would be retained, but MiG-29s have an operational range that would restrict their ability to carry out long-range attacks, as well as limiting their carrying capacity on missions outside of Venezuela's territory. This would have made for a more clearly defensive and hence regionally stabilizing force.

Instead, Chavez chose to buy fewer aircraft, but with the capability to launch long-range strikes carrying much larger amounts of ordnance. The SU-30MK2 has up to 6 hardpoints for strike weapons (each of which can potentially hold more than one weapon, depending on type), and the Russians claim that its range is 3,000km/ 1,800 miles on internal fuel. This will not be a stabilizing force in the region, especially given many of his neighbours' complaints of hostile Venezuelan meddling in the region's internal affairs, and efforts to export revolution to their countries.


[Edited 2006-07-29 00:28:30]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
md90fan
Posts: 2798
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Jul 30, 2006 12:51 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
what those helicopters are that they mentioned, too

I've read Mil-35M's.
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:30 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 64):
to make a political statement and pretend that by buying from Russia he will piss off the Bush administration.

He might have partly succeeded.....
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...ctions+to+seal+Venezuela+arms.html

Quoting A342 (Reply 65):
but the examples recently delivered to India, with Israeli equipment, should be one of the best products you can get in the AWACS sector.

The first completed article is due in July 2007.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...rds=&ExcludeIDs=&CategoryID=10260&

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

I wonder if HC would order one. But would it be worthwhile for the Venezuelan air force given that they would be getting just 24 Sukhois and still have their old fighters? They're better off firming some of the Su-30MK options. But as you said, the money is better spent on the country's other needs.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:08 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):

Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

Hitting refineries of a country that provides you with 15% of your oil? That is a very clever idea! Solving conflicts by simply destroying what your opponent could otherwise sell to you. That opens up a whole new world for foreign policy. Next time Germany has an issue with the Dutch I propose we just bomb their tulip fields.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 56):
Americans should focus on American problems.

Sure, let's not pretend that power had something to do with responsibility.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 56):
but if Hugo wants to get himself some nukes

Oh oh ... the N-word that grants you universal powers. Not long ago I heard that the Dalai Lama is also pursuing nuclear weapons to free Tibet.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 57):
Thankfully Latin America is one of the world's peaceful regions so those matches will never occur and if they did, I would gladly put my $$ on the FAV. LatAm hasn't seen a major conflict between its country for decades. The only exception is the Colombian Civil War.

Well ... yes ... aside from about 20 other "minor" conflicts.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 58):
Overall peace has occurred mainly because of the existence of that big country in "El Norte" which has to give permission for two countries to have a war in the American continent. No permission, no war!

At least not before you could sell both parties the necessary equipment. It would be a shame if they had to fight with stones and forks ... nobody would want to see that on television.

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 61):
No! You must steal a car. Then you'll be a part of the club...if you manage to get ILS's illusive BMW with the KIA interior, you'll be President of Poland.

Its funny. Jokes about Poles are everywhere the same ... I even have an aviation related one (I only tell it because I know that Poles make similar jokes about Germans):

An English pilot, a French pilot and a Polish pilot meet and talk about navigation at zero-visibility.

The English pilot says: " It's quite easy. When it's foggy and I don't know anymore where I am, I just put the arm out of the cockpit window and when I can feel the Big Ben then I'm in London!"
The French pilot adds: "Yeah! I do it the same way. I put my arm out of the window and when i can feel the Eiffel Tower i know I'm in Paris.
Hereupon the Polish Pilot: "That are nice tricks you have, but they only work in your capital. When I am flying home from abroad and can't see anything because of fog, i just put my arm out of my window. When my wrist watch is gone, then I know I am at home.

cheers,
Jan

[Edited 2006-08-05 11:30:07]
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:37 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 76):
Hitting refineries of a country that provides you with 15% of your oil? That is a very clever idea! Solving conflicts by simply destroying what your opponent could otherwise sell to you. That opens up a whole new world for foreign policy. Next time Germany has an issue with the Dutch I propose we just bomb their tulip fields.

I could give a rat's ass about Venezuelan oil! Prices here are exorbinatley high and only getting higher, so threats of oil manipulation are useless. If anything, the lack of oil will force the American public to go other means of fuelling their lives. There is plenty of oil in the US anyway.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 76):
Oh oh ... the N-word that grants you universal powers. Not long ago I heard that the Dalai Lama is also pursuing nuclear weapons to free Tibet.

I can't see how that was beneficial, other than showing your poor attitude. Sarcasm is useless.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
RAPCON
Posts: 651
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 73):
This would still have given Chavez the best combat aircraft in Latin America, with the ability to carry the same sophisticated air-air armament as the SU-30s, and greater air-air combat capabilities than any carrier-borne US fighter.

What a bunch of crock. Yeah this would be right if the US would play to the few strengths of the SU. But unfortunately the US does not fight fair...they fight to win.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
A342
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:14 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 75):
The first completed article is due in July 2007.

You mean the first aircraft ? Thanks for the correction. I can't find the article, though.
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Aug 05, 2006 11:38 pm

Quoting A342 (Reply 79):

You mean the first aircraft ? Thanks for the correction. I can't find the article, though.

Yes. It's not an article really but just a newsbrief. Curiously, the title is misleading as the newsbriefs are about military stuff.
http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...gh+Business+aviation+in+brief.html

[Edited 2006-08-05 16:53:06]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
Posts: 2399
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 1:47 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 50):
It's sad to see how Americans think of Venezuela nowdays. The USA used to be our main ally. Close cooperaton for more then a century. Now we are in the same league as N Korea, Iran, Syria, etc... Fuck my country's goverment for doing this.

Hugo picked up a copy of 200 year old Marxist book and thought it was a novel idea to just follow it verbatim as he pandered to the poor and duped them every which way.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 51):
Regretfully yes. Chavez plans to have a 1 million strong civilian militia armed with AK47s "his private guerrilla". In case of an invasion, I'm sure he'd get support from the Colombian guerrillas and it will be a very complicated war for the US.

Nevertheless, I think that if the US invades, nobody will give a shit about it and won't bother to take the AK47s to fight the marines. The people that support Chavez do it because of the money he hands out. They won't risk their lives fighting a superior military force to save his ass.

No invasion necessary - an aerial and naval blockade from just one USN CVBG would be enough to get Hugo dancing like a one-man band in a talent show.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 3:36 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 77):
I can't see how that was beneficial, other than showing your poor attitude. Sarcasm is useless.

Sarcasm is a nice and often intelligent way to say something without getting rude. Cynicism is bad attitude.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 6:04 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 82):
Sarcasm is a nice and often intelligent way to say something without getting rude. Cynicism is bad attitude.

I would argue that both attributes are not only useful but in fact quite necessary to navigate our world today it into hell via our handbasket.
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 8:06 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 82):
I would argue that both attributes are not only useful but in fact quite necessary to navigate our world today it into hell via our handbasket.

That is one hell of an outlook!

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 82):
Sarcasm is a nice and often intelligent way to say something without getting rude. Cynicism is bad attitude.

I guess that is your opinion. Cynicism is just thinking outside of the box.

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 12:56 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 76):
Its funny. Jokes about Poles are everywhere the same ... I even have an aviation related one (I only tell it because I know that Poles make similar jokes about Germans):

An English pilot, a French pilot and a Polish pilot meet and talk about navigation at zero-visibility.

The English pilot says: " It's quite easy. When it's foggy and I don't know anymore where I am, I just put the arm out of the cockpit window and when I can feel the Big Ben then I'm in London!"
The French pilot adds: "Yeah! I do it the same way. I put my arm out of the window and when i can feel the Eiffel Tower i know I'm in Paris.
Hereupon the Polish Pilot: "That are nice tricks you have, but they only work in your capital. When I am flying home from abroad and can't see anything because of fog, i just put my arm out of my window. When my wrist watch is gone, then I know I am at home.

 rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl   rotfl 

Classic!

 airplane B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane 
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Aug 06, 2006 4:44 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 84):
That is one hell of an outlook!

You misquoted my there. That was AirRyan's statement.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 84):
Cynicism is just thinking outside of the box.

Cynisms can refer to an attitude that deliberrately makes fun of something with the only goal to discredit to insult someone. More often it refers to an attitude that questions basic human or moral values and subsequently makes fun of their demise. Once you become affected it becomes sarcasm. Black humor is something in between zynism and sarcasm.
 
MigFan
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:42 am

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 86):
You misquoted my there.

???

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 86):
More often it refers to an attitude that questions basic human or moral values and subsequently makes fun of their demise.

That's debatable. Morals are based entirely on background beliefs. If one were to think for themself, and devise their own opinion from their environment, then they could be a cynic or a sheep

/M
UH-60's suck!!!
 
F4N
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:48 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 81):
Hugo picked up a copy of 200 year oldrnMarxist book and thought it was a novel idea to just follow it verbatimrnas he pandered to the poor and duped them every which way.

While that may be true to some extent, he convinced sufficient numbers of people to vote for him and he is legitimite leader of Venezuela regardless of what the US thinks of him.

I am a bit surprised at the level of belligerence being exhibited about this topic. IMO, Chavez is the Col. Ghaddafi of the early 21rst century. Inept to the point of letting his personal ideologies blind him to geo-political realities, he will blunder his way into insignificance. Just as Ghaddafi welcomed leaders like Idi Amin, Chavez is aligning himself with pariahs and "revolutionaries". Not the way to credibility in the mainstream world. Eventually, like Ghaddafi, he will isolate himself and his country. How Venezuela will react to that, no one knows.

BTW, I look at the Sukhoi's as the equivalent of Ghaddafi's order for 100+ Mirages in the 1970's. While the US fretted over the endless mischief that Ghaddafi would get into with them and how they would alter the balance of power in the Middle East, in the end, they generally sat in hangars and on runways. The ionly one's who were happy were the French.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 81):
No invasion necessary - an aerial and naval blockade from just one USN CVBG would be enough to get Hugo dancing like a one-man band in a talent show.

I am becoming increasingly skeptical about the validity of projecting conventional military into unconventional conflicts and believing it will cow the opposition into obedience. The ever-inept Bush administration believed that "shock and awe" would yield up a subservient Iraq 3 years ago and at this point in time, we are no closer to a democratic, stable iraq. Isreal's dominant military has been unable to solve the problem of unconventional enemies to this very day. A carrier battle group is well-suited for what it was intended for, but conventional naval opposition is thin on the water at the moment. To suggest that it would get any land-based opponent "dancing" is both naive and foolish. They certainly did not intimidate the North Vietnamese. After the US destroyed all the conventional targets with carrier airpower, the NVA didn't go away. The just went elsewhere and the war was still on.

regards,

F4N
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:57 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 87):
???

Sorry, there was a typo. In reply 84 you quoted my reply 82 but inserted AirRyan's statement from reply 83. I guess that happened accidentally ....

Quoting Migfan (Reply 87):
That's debatable. Morals are based entirely on background beliefs. If one were to think for themself, and devise their own opinion from their environment, then they could be a cynic or a sheep

"My" definition was just what I summarized from a standard US-American encyclopedia. Before something is put in there, i guess, linguists have sufficiently debated the semantics of each term.
 
MigFan
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Jan 29, 2006 12:50 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:22 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 89):
"My" definition was just what I summarized from a standard US-American encyclopedia. Before something is put in there, i guess, linguists have sufficiently debated the semantics of each term.

I work in the philosophy dept. Semantics is a way of life here...  Smile
UH-60's suck!!!
 
bennett123
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Aug 07, 2006 11:37 pm

Who has he actually threatened?.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:36 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 90):
I work in the philosophy dept. Semantics is a way of life here...

I am from the Business Information Science area where semantics refer to the actual abstract meaning of something. But that's true; semantics can mean basically anything depending on the field you're working in ...

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 91):
Who has he actually threatened?.

Chavez? He threatened to cut off oil supplies to the US if the Bush administration further exercises pressure on him, his government or any of his leftist friends ... I think he is not even the extremest of them, but the most powerful. Castro, da Silva and Morales in particular are far more extreme in their attitude ... and far less educated. Chavez is all but the dumb Che Guevara type-of guy. He might be on the left side of life, but that is why he was elected by his people by roughly 60% of the votes . They want their share of country's wealth and in the past they apparantly had not feeling to get it.
 
bennett123
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Joined: Sun Aug 15, 2004 12:49 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 1:19 am

So if GWB leaves him alone, then he will leave GWB alone.

There is also the point that it is Venezuela's oil.
 
AirRyan
Topic Author
Posts: 2399
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:16 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 88):
While that may be true to some extent, he convinced sufficient numbers of people to vote for him and he is legitimite leader of Venezuela regardless of what the US thinks of him.

Kind of like what happens when a terroist state democratically elects a known terrorist organization for their government! (Hamas and Palestine and to a certain extent, Hezbo's and Lebanon.)

Quoting F4N (Reply 88):
am becoming increasingly skeptical about the validity of projecting conventional military into unconventional conflicts and believing it will cow the opposition into obedience. The ever-inept Bush administration believed that "shock and awe" would yield up a subservient Iraq 3 years ago and at this point in time, we are no closer to a democratic, stable iraq. Isreal's dominant military has been unable to solve the problem of unconventional enemies to this very day

The only detriment here is the hippie pacifist who actually beleives that the US is the one responsible for all of the ills of the world today, and in particular the ills in the middle east and in regards to radical islamict facism. We never saw anything close to resembling the shock and awe throughout the entire operationg and had we actually seen this, say for example in Fallujah - a lot of US troops lives and injuries could have been saved at the expense of a lot of Iraqi's, some terrorist and some not, but who cares - that is the point. We did shock and awe in WWII because we understood that it was us or them and we we not going to let it be us. Wheter people like it or even accept it or not, that does not change the fact that radical Islam has launched a jihad on the capitalist Christian west and the sooner we realize that the sooner we can solve the problem.

Quoting F4N (Reply 88):
They certainly did not intimidate the North Vietnamese.

The hell they didn't - they just knew that due to the rampant increase in liberalism and feminism in the politics and the news media they could broker for a cease fire long enough to re-arm and re-group. Sounds like the same BS that the world wants Israel to do so the hezbo's can regroup and resupply.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 93):
There is also the point that it is Venezuela's oil.

And let's expound upon that notion since Venezuela has developed absolutely nothing on their own to ever have taken advantage of that reserve - it was the West (and now even China) who through science (and not religion) came up with all of these ideas such as combustion engines and jet airplanes, and that is the only reason why Venezuela even has something of value to sell in the first place. Same goes for the Mid-East.
 
bennett123
Posts: 9737
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 6:39 am

No one said that they invented the combustion engine.

If oil was found in your garden ...
 
AerospaceFan
Posts: 6990
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 7:42 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 93):
So if GWB leaves him alone, then he will leave GWB alone.

Which reminds me: What would Chavez do with the Su-30's, anyway?

[Edited 2006-08-08 00:43:15]
What's fair is fair.
 
F4N
Posts: 507
Joined: Fri Mar 17, 2000 11:37 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:17 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 94):
Kind of like what happens when a terroist state democratically elects a known terrorist organization for their government! (Hamas and Palestine and to a certain extent, Hezbo's and Lebanon.)

The down side of political pluralism; sometimes other people elect parties/leaders that we may not necessarily like and/or agree with.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 94):
The only detriment here is the hippie pacifist who actually beleives that the US is the one responsible for all of the ills of the world today, and in particular the ills in the middle east and in regards to radical islamict facism.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here or what relevance it has to this topic.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 94):
The hell they didn't - they just knew that due to the rampant increase in liberalism and feminism in the politics and the news media they could broker for a cease fire long enough to re-arm and re-group.

I don't recall Nixon or Kissinger being known for their liberalism. Feminism??
BTW, the NVA units we engaged in I Corp in 1971-72 didn't appear to be too intimidated by the carriers lurking offshore. Or maybe they were too busy firing at us to notice that they were out there...

regards,

F4N
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:00 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 97):
The down side of political pluralism; sometimes other people elect parties/leaders that we may not necessarily like and/or agree with.

While I am a big fan of pluralism, allowing a terrorist organization such as Hamas to take part in a democratic election is highly questionable. That's not the sense of pluralism. Which leads to the actual problem:

First: There is no consensus about what a terrorist organization actually is. And as a government you do have a serious problem declaring an organisation as terrorist that is backed by a substantial part of your population. To consequently declare the supporting share of the population also as terrorist will only lead to exact opposite of what you want to achieve. That's why I think that Israel's current proceeding is not very clever, because the more civilian infrastructure they destroy, the more civilian losses they inflict, the more they drive the people into the arms of extremist organization such as Hezbollah, Hamas etc ... its dumb to think one could bomb reason into the people or make them think as you do.

Second: What is the definition of a terrorist? Is it just the denial to recognize the Hague Convention of 1907, which states that combatants must clearly distinguish themselves from civilians,must not conduct war out of the civilian population, must not commit crimes against civilian population etc.? I think its a common misunderstanding that just Guerrilla-like fighting qualifies for terrorism.
 
deltadc9
Posts: 2811
Joined: Fri Apr 14, 2006 10:00 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 5:46 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 93):
So if GWB leaves him alone

What has GW done to him?
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
bennett123
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:23 am

Padspot (reply 92)

He threatened to cut off oil supplies to the US if the Bush administration further exercises pressure on him

By implication there would only be a threat on oil if GWB did something else first.

I would be interested to know if the contract for the supply of F16's made it clear that the supply of spares was conditional on Venezuela saying uncle.

After all this is the whole reason for them ordering SU30's in the first place.

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