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AirRyan
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 9:27 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 97):
I don't recall Nixon or Kissinger being known for their liberalism. Feminism??
BTW, the NVA units we engaged in I Corp in 1971-72 didn't appear to be too intimidated by the carriers lurking offshore. Or maybe they were too busy firing at us to notice that they were out there...

Nixon didn't know how to run the war in Vietnam, either - Linebacker II in December 1972 was about 6 years too late.

As for the radical feminism, hundreds of years now historians will chart the beginning of the demise of this Nation as the sole source; ignoring the biological differences between men and women is nothing short of ignornace; of course that is the subject of an entire other forum all together.
 
art
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:17 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 26):
1. F16 without spares are scrap. So he currently is somewhat limited in the fighter/border patrol arena.

2. He has mentioned selling on the F16's, I do not recall any threat of attacking the USA, (or anyone else).



Quoting RAPCON (Reply 27):
He can't sell them without US permission. If he does, VZ will get sued here and VZ assets in the US will be attached.

Don't buy US equipment, you risk problems

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 40):
Chavez though...cash, and an ideology closer to that of Moscow...they'll keep him well stocked...until he does something Putin dislikes...

Don't buy Russian equipment, you risk problems

Solution: is there one?
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:46 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 102):

Don't buy Russian equipment, you risk problems

We don't sell him anything either ... !  Wink
 
RAPCON
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:10 pm

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 99):
What has GW done to him?

Ignored him.

That has been W's biggest sin in the eyes of "Monkey" Chavez.

And you know that when a megalomaniac pip-squeek third-world-toilet sort of dictator gets ignored by the big dog, they start crying like a girl.
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
deltadc9
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:36 pm

Quoting F4N (Reply 97):
BTW, the NVA units we engaged in I Corp in 1971-72 didn't appear to be too intimidated by the carriers lurking offshore. Or maybe they were too busy firing at us to notice that they were out there...

Dont know about that, but the WWII battleship constantly sending in 16 inch shells bothered them a lot. It was a main point of contention in the peace negotiations.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 104):
Ignored him.

Ok, I got ya.

It is true, North Korea and Iran must be very frustrated that their puffing is not newsworthy with the current Israeli situation sucking up all the attention.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
F4N
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:34 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 105):
Dont know about that, but the WWII battleship constantly sending in 16 inch shells bothered them a lot. It was a main point of contention in the peace negotiations.

I find it difficult to believe that a battleship that made 1 cruise in 1968 and was decommissioned in 1969 was a "main point of contention" during the 1973 peace talks. eyebrow 

F4N
 
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Kukkudrill
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:50 am

Quoting Art (Reply 102):
Don't buy US equipment, you risk problems

Don't buy Russian equipment, you risk problems

Solution: is there one?

Monsieur Chirac might be willing to assist.
Make the most of the available light ... a lesson of photography that applies to life
 
bennett123
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:22 am

Perhaps you buy aircraft from different sources.

For example Saudi.
 
bennett123
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:26 am

 
bennett123
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:28 am

Saudis Out Shopping (by Flying-Tiger Jul 25 2006 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
 
deltadc9
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:35 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 106):
I find it difficult to believe that a battleship that made 1 cruise in 1968 and was decommissioned in 1969 was a "main point of contention" during the 1973 peace talks.

It is a fact. It really pissed them off. The New Jersey received a presidential citation while serving in Vietnam and 3 battle stars and seven other awards. New Jersey directed nearly ten thousand rounds of ammunition at Communist targets; over 3,000 of these shells were 16-inch projectiles.

Also, I hope you dont think that 1973 was the first of the peace talks.

This is common knowledge we are talking about here.

From an article in the Washington Times:Battleships fit for duty
By Dennis Reilly June 6, 2005

"During the Vietnam War, the New Jersey was on station for 6 months. It wreaked havoc on the DMZ and in the North, including destruction of the deeply buried North Vietnamese Army (NVA) command headquarters. Had this ship been deployed throughout that war, a fair fraction of the 2,000 aviators killed, missing in action or captured as prisoners of war would have been spared. No statistic conveys the impact of the New Jersey's assault on the NVA better than the fact that North Vietnam demanded the withdrawal of the ship -- not the B-52s -- before it would continue with the Paris peace talks."

So believe it. It went into mothballs for a reason.
Dont take life too seriously because you will never get out of it alive - Bugs Bunny
 
F4N
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 111):
It is a fact. It really pissed them off. The New Jersey received a presidential citation while serving in Vietnam and 3 battle stars and seven other awards. New Jersey directed nearly ten thousand rounds of ammunition at Communist targets; over 3,000 of these shells were 16-inch projectiles.

I would never suggest that naval gunfire support is ineffective. What I would suggest is that it has severe limitations and is not the "wonder weapon" some would like to believe.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 111):
Also, I hope you dont think that 1973 was the first of the peace talks.

This is common knowledge we are talking about here.

You are correct. There were years of pointless negotiations which went nowhere; a political facade for both sides. Incidently, I believe the demand for the withdrawl of the New Jersey came at a point in the "peace talks" during which the bombing halt was in effect. Realistically, the New Jersey was the only offensive weapon being fielded against North Vietnam at that time, so demanding its' withdrawl was understandably a bargaining tactic.

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 111):
From an article in the Washington Times:Battleships fit for duty
By Dennis Reilly June 6, 2005

"During the Vietnam War, the New Jersey was on station for 6 months. It wreaked havoc on the DMZ and in the North, including destruction of the deeply buried North Vietnamese Army (NVA) command headquarters. Had this ship been deployed throughout that war, a fair fraction of the 2,000 aviators killed, missing in action or captured as prisoners of war would have been spared. No statistic conveys the impact of the New Jersey's assault on the NVA better than the fact that North Vietnam demanded the withdrawal of the ship -- not the B-52s -- before it would continue with the Paris peace talks."

I have to say that such an article is conjectural at best and misrepresentative
to a large degree. Given the range limitations of the 16 inch gun, how many targets could it have realistically bombarded? How effective could it have been impeding the movements of troops and supplies from China through Laos and Cambodia? I would suggest that far more pilots were shot down and captured or killed beyond gunfire range than within it. Again, I would never suggest that gunfire of that magnitude is not effective; I am suggesting that it is not what this gentleman seems to imply it is.


[quote=DeltaDC9,reply=111]So believe it. It went into mothballs for a reason

Yes, it did. And for the same reasons that it and her sisters would be re-activated for a short time and then be decommissioned again and again.
These are relics of a military past. Their reason for being having disappeared ages ago. They are now ~ 70 years old; difficult to maintain and expensive to crew and operate. If their effectiveness was such as the quoted article would imply, why are they all museums now? Despite all the attempts to find a cost-effective mission for them by misty-eyed romantics who yearn for a return to the "big-gun" Navy, it can't be done. Why try? The are impressive tributes to the WWII generations and the sacrfices that they made. Leave them to that.

regards,

F4N
 
RAPCON
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 7:19 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 112):
Despite all the attempts to find a cost-effective mission for them by misty-eyed romantics who yearn for a return to the "big-gun" Navy, it can't be done. Why try? The are impressive tributes to the WWII generations and the sacrfices that they made. Leave them to that.

Well some of us who were USN wep officers would disagree about dismissal of "big guns". Granted a 16in/50 may be a bit of overkill, but the range of a nice 8in would do very nicely today.

5in are sweet, but it just "don't do it" for NGFS (and forget about that pop gun OTO 76mm).
MODS CAN'T STOP ME....THEY CAN ONLY HOPE TO CONTAIN ME!!!
 
F4N
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 10, 2006 8:03 am

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 113):
Well some of us who were USN weprnofficers would disagree about dismissal of "big guns". Granted arn16in/50 may be a bit of overkill, but the range of a nice 8in would dornvery nicely today.

RAPCON:

I did not suggest that there is no place for a large calibre gun in the Navy. What I said was that the "big gun" Navy, as it existed in the days of first half of the 20th century,
is dead and that people shouldn't keep trying to bring it back by exaggerating its' effectiveness or significance.

Good thought though. I have often wondered why a large calibre gun never made it onto the "Ticonderoga" class for NFGS. Weight concerns? Stress issues?
Certainly would be a better idea than 70 year old battleships...

regards,

F4N
 
zvocio79
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Apr 30, 2007 3:46 pm

Quoting MigFan (Reply 10):
If Chavez actually thinks he could thwart any invasion with 30 Su-30s at the tip of his spear, he is a very poorly trained strategist...

he may be planing on a invasion on Brazil instead......rich on oil and ethanol.....

one side Venezuela, Peru, Bolivia and Cuba. v/s the other side Chile, Argentina, Brazil Ecuador........Señor Chavez want to bring south america to destruction.
 
L-188
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Apr 30, 2007 4:02 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 113):
Granted a 16in/50 may be a bit of overkill,

[email protected]&#*, one thing I have learned hunting in bear country is that you can never have too much gun.

Quoting F4N (Reply 114):
What I said was that the "big gun" Navy, as it existed in the days of first half of the 20th century,
is dead and that people shouldn't keep trying to bring it back by exaggerating its' effectiveness or significance

I don't think that is what people are compaining, but it is worthy to note that those big guns where very intimidating to the Syrians in Lebanon and to the Iraqis in GW1.

There is a purpose for a large caliber weapons system.

But it is also an example I use when I complain that we are being forced to use new, very expensive systems in place of older systems better suited for the task.

Tomahawk vs. 16 inch gun for example. A tomahawk is what a mil and half a shot, but if you are near the beach a 16 inch shell is only what 10-15 grand and hits harder

A tow missile is about a quarter of a mil and we are shooting them against buildings, a target it was never designed for. But a 106 mm recoiless rifle shell is a couple of hundred bucks and there are several different rounds that you can employ including HE and Beehive rounds. But our guys are forced to use tow missiles and their anti-tank heads because that is all they have in service.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:00 am

The deal is being denied:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi....RV8T8MOa9dUAAFVAhVE&modele=jdc_34

Quote:
The Rosoboronexport Press Service is authorized to announce that the information on signing the contract between Rosoboronexport and Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela for delivery of 98 Il-114 airplanes, recently published in Russian media, does not reflect the facts.

My question is: what deal? Is this referring to the rumored Sukhoi's?
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:55 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 116):

My question is: what deal? Is this referring to the rumored Sukhoi's?

The Sukhois have already been delivered, at least some of them. Whether they are getting Il-114s I have no idea, but 98 is a s*it load. No idea why they would need so many.

[Edited 2007-08-28 21:00:00]
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
domokun
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:40 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 49):
Fuck my country's goverment for doing this.

There are many Americans who feel the same way. Given this, one should always judge a country for more than its political structure.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 4:49 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 116):
My question is: what deal? Is this referring to the rumored Sukhoi's?



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 117):
No idea why they would need so many.

For what it's worth, you can find some background information here.....
Venezuela Plans To Build Its Own Military Aircraft (by Acheron Jan 11 2007 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

Quoting Acheron (Reply 49):
So far, apparently Thales will be the one to equip the cockpits of whatever plane is selected(at least for the FAV). The rumour speaks of 35 An-140(most of them for the Army, I think) and 35 An-74(thats why I said of taking it with a grain of salt, since that's quite a lot of airplanes), and he An-74 part might include several MPA for the Navy. Seems that the plan is to phase out Aravas, Skytrucks, G222(they phased themselves out, anyway) and Aviocars(including the ASW versions) with a single supplier to reduce costs and logistic issues across the armed forces.



Quoting Acheron (Reply 58):

The An-140s are a no-go, for any branch. Only An-74(unknown numbers, some heading for the Army besides the MPA versions for the Navy) and around 10 Il-76 in three versions:Transport, AWACS and Tanker.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
L-188
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 10:55 am

Quoting MigFan (Reply 10):
If Chavez actually thinks he could thwart any invasion with 30 Su-30s at the tip of his spear, he is a very poorly trained strategist...

So was Hitler, but he spent the better part of a decade screwing up peoples lives.

Quoting CTR (Reply 17):
Lately, Chavez has been begun to lose influence with his neighbors. With the exception of Bolivia, his revolution is stalling

I can only hope that process is continuing.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 27):
The lack of US permission is not going to stop him from trying

Agree.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 27):
I also doubt the US will take the time to physically blockade a country to prevent the sale of 20+ aged fighters.

Why blockade, just find out what boat they go out on, wait until it gets over a deep part of the ocean and then sink her.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 31):
If he sells them without permission, he gets sued in US COURTS. Of course the Court will impose severe damages knowing that there are plenty of assets of VZ in the US (ex: CITGO) that the US can look towards for recovery.

Taking CITGO's US operations away from him would be wonderful.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 36):
Never under-estimate an opponent, that is a sure-fire way to get one's ass kicked

Absolutely

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 42):
The skills of the FAV pilots are thanks to their excellent training by the USAF

Agreed, but they aren't training with the US now. And the farther they get from that training the worse off they are.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 2:06 pm

I doubt that the US Navy would have any trouble with 30 Su-30's. The superhornet while not given much credit outside the US is a very agile and modern fighter along with ground attack. It is very capable of handling the SU-30 in a one on one battle. Keep in mind all 30 Su-30 would not be capable of flying at once you looking at facing maybe 10 or 12 that would be battle capable at any given time especially given the Russian's known supply chain on spare parts for their aircraft. Most would be taken out on the ground prior to battle in the air by b-2's and cruise missles. The US Navy alone has close to 800 Superhornets by shear numbers they would not be a long term threat.
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 3:21 pm

I would like to shift the attention of this discussion.

Chavez has made numerous remarks he would like to claim the Dutch Antilles (some of the island are less than 40 nm from the Venezuelan coast). The Dutch military has a permanent presence there of 2 Marine Batallions (roughly 300 troops) and one frigate. I guess there are also some american forces stationed with the war on drugs.

How would 30 Su-30's help Chavez invade the Antilles? My guess would be that the single frigate could take care of it (especially when there's an LCF stationed). Thanks to its goalkeepers it will at least be safe itself.

any thoughts?
 
wvsuperhornet
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Wed Aug 29, 2007 5:10 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 122):
would like to shift the attention of this discussion.

Chavez has made numerous remarks he would like to claim the Dutch Antilles (some of the island are less than 40 nm from the Venezuelan coast). The Dutch military has a permanent presence there of 2 Marine Batallions (roughly 300 troops) and one frigate. I guess there are also some american forces stationed with the war on drugs.

How would 30 Su-30's help Chavez invade the Antilles? My guess would be that the single frigate could take care of it (especially when there's an LCF stationed). Thanks to its goalkeepers it will at least be safe itself.

any thoughts?

My guess it would be enough if not moving an aegis destroyer to the area would definatly do the trick and being that the Dutch is an ally of the US I wouldnt be suprised if an Aircraft carrier was sent to the region to monitor things. The Dutch have a well equipted and trained military they should be able to hold off any intial attack by themselves.
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 30, 2007 5:32 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 119):

Thanks for the info!

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 122):

Interesting. I have heard that myself but only took it as rumors at first.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 30, 2007 6:06 am

well, I personally don't believe they would be that stupid. Also our politicians have said it is premature to even plan anything to counter such an invasion. At the moment the relation with Venezuela isn't all that bad, and our diplomats are doing a good job.

Nevertheless, in light of this thread, I thought it was at least worth mentioning.
 
Dougloid
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:21 am

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 122):
any thoughts?

Show us that you care.


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KevinSmith
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Aug 30, 2007 8:31 am

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 49):
Ok we can disagree here again. 30 Su-30mk + 22 F16 + 23 F5s + 16 Mirage 50 add up 91 fighter aircraft

=Three ship B-2 mission and F-22s to get the ones that get in the air.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 1):
Hawkeyes+AMRAAMs (supplied by the F18s)= success

I agree with Aislepath. It always comes down to the man or woman in the cockpit.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
USN Super Hornets

Why do you cite the Super Hornet? Because the Navy would be the first responders in a strike? If that is the case thats a good point.

Heaven forbid though the Super Bugs have trouble dealing with the Sukhoi the Air Force has the F-22s. Game Over. (Not a slam against the Navy just an endorsement of the F-22)
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
md90fan
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Aug 31, 2007 12:45 pm

No pics????   

http://img65.imageshack.us/img65/8044/envuelo64vm6.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/P1010529.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/1305/su30plc2jg9.jpg

http://img516.imageshack.us/img516/2423/84640636xn6.jpg

for the russophobes   


Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 122):
Chavez has made numerous remarks he would like to claim the Dutch Antilles (some of the island are less than 40 nm from the Venezuelan coast). The Dutch military has a permanent presence there of 2 Marine Batallions (roughly 300 troops) and one frigate. I guess there are also some american forces stationed with the war on drugs.

..They also have PC-3s/Fokker 60s and soon DASH-8s doing Maratime patrols there.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 122):
How would 30 Su-30's help Chavez invade the Antilles? My guess would be that the single frigate could take care of it (especially when there's an LCF stationed). Thanks to its goalkeepers it will at least be safe itself.

1 Frigate handling 30 Su-30s?   BTW, 2 IL-76 AWACS are going to brought as part of a deal for 10 IL-76s all together (6 utility purpose, 2 IL-78M tankers, 2 AWACS)

Quoting L-188 (Reply 120):

Agreed, but they aren't training with the US now. And the farther they get from that training the worse off they are.

The Su-30MK2s pilots got full training in Russia. BTW, there is 12 to go!

[Edited 2007-08-31 05:46:59]
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
F27Friendship
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Aug 31, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 128):
They also have PC-3s/Fokker 60s and soon DASH-8s doing Maratime patrols there.

The PC-3's were all sold for a bargain price to Germany and Portugal. The F60's were there to replace the PC-3's for only 2 years (even UK Nimrods were leased for some time) and now the DASH-8s will be bought to do coast guard duties.

So no more anti-submarine capability etc.

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 128):
1 Frigate handling 30 Su-30s?

if they can get all af them in the air at the same time, and the frigate might not be able to stop them, but it will probably be able to counter anything they can fire toward the frigate itself
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Sep 01, 2007 3:00 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 128):
a deal for 10 IL-76s all together (6 utility purpose, 2 IL-78M tankers, 2 AWACS)

Would those be this new, re-engined version?.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...presents-il-76md-90-airlifter.html

Quote:
"The Russian air force unveiled its Ilyushin Il-76MD-90 strategic airlifter at the Moscow air show in August (Flight International, 28 August-3 September). It is a standard Il-76MD refurbished with Perm PS-90A76 turbofans replacing NPO Saturn D-30KPs. The aircraft also features improved Leninets Kupol-76M avionics."

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Photo © Kirill Naumenko

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PPVRA
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 03, 2007 5:08 am

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 128):
BTW, 2 IL-76 AWACS are going to brought as part of a deal for 10 IL-76s all together (6 utility purpose, 2 IL-78M tankers, 2 AWACS)

For Chavez? I haven't heard of this, or at least only as "has shown interest" for Il-76 transport (non-AWACS or Tankers afaik).
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Sep 04, 2007 7:23 am

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 131):
(non-AWACS or Tankers afaik).

Did you miss the reference to those in the last linked quote in reply 119 above? Although reply 41 in that other thread did say those were only rumours. I doubt they would wait for the later variant if they were really intent on buying.....

Quote:
"A more advanced version of the aircraft is on the way. To be produced by VASO, the Il-476 - or "fourth-generation Il-76" - will feature PS-90A76s, a glass cockpit, and a further 13-17% improvement in fuel efficiency. Separately, an Il-76 is being used as a testbed for Kuznetsov NK-93 ducted fan engines."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PPVRA
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:39 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 132):

Yeah I did, it's been a while since that thread. Thanks for pointing that out.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
Blackbird
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:33 am

The Su-30 is a nightmare in terms of close in Air to Air combat. Did anyone see those videos of it performing some out of this world maneuvering?
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sat Sep 15, 2007 9:02 am

Quoting Blackbird (Reply 134):
The Su-30 is a nightmare in terms of close in Air to Air combat. Did anyone see those videos of it performing some out of this world maneuvering?

Not that I have flown an Su-30, but it's been said that to perform those sorts of maneuvers requires virtually 100% of the pilots attention. How useful are those aerobatics really going to be in combat?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
Blackbird
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:33 am

DFWRevolution,

I guess that's a relief
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:10 pm

Crazy Huey would have a lot more to deal with than a carrier air group, if he were dumb enough to pick a fight. There's a good chance the Beaks (B-2s) could catch them on the ground and then it's a moot point.  

[Edited 2007-09-16 05:10:33]
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KevinSmith
Posts: 626
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:17 pm

Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 137):
Crazy Huey would have a lot more to deal with than a carrier air group, if he were dumb enough to pick a fight. There's a good chance the Beaks (B-2s) could catch them on the ground and then it's a moot point.



Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 127):

=Three ship B-2 mission and F-22s to get the ones that get in the air.

Great minds think alike.
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:45 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 138):
Great minds think alike.

 thumbsup  wink 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:29 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
so what does Chavez now do with his F-16's? (Iran wouldn't even want them and they would be destroyed on any boat ride over there anyways.)

He's welcome to donate those free and clear to the Philippines.  Wink I guess Uncle Sam wouldn't mind if those went to charity. And permission to scavenge for parts in the boneyard would be very much appreciated.  Smile

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 25):
F16 without spares are scrap.

One country's scrap could be another's treasure. The country is becoming the First World's junkyard anyway. And the PAF are by now past masters at nursing derelicts back to life. Destitution breeds improvisation.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 26):
Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 26):
He has mentioned selling on the F16's, I do not recall any threat of attacking the USA, (or anyone else).

He can't sell them without US permission. If he does, VZ will get sued here and VZ assets in the US will be attached.



Quoting Migfan (Reply 27):

The lack of US permission is not going to stop him from trying. The potential customers are not going to be on the US' A-list, so they would probably not give a hoot what the US says about the sale.

There probably wouldn't be a customer for an unauthorized sale since he would be buying the embargo with it, too. Unless the buyer just wants to cannibalise those for parts. Which begs the question, how many F-16 operators would risk falling out of grace doing that, and who else is currently in a state of disfavor?
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 4:41 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 99):
He threatened to cut off oil supplies to the US if the Bush administration further exercises pressure on him

Oil is sold on a free market at market prices that result from predetermined production volumes. Chavez can sell (or not sell) his oil to anyone he wants to and American oil companies can buy it or not buy it from Chavez. Venezuelan oil has an inherent advantage of low transportation costs to the US and if Chavez feels this fact is not appreciated appropriately (e.g. by political acceptance) he can choose to sell it to someone else and won't loose a penny. China would take right away ...

If Chavez did so, I don't know what to accuse him of? If had a customer with whom the relationship is so bad that it actually does not justify to make business with him, I would try to get rid of him as fast as I can find alternative customers who generates the same revenue. We're not at that point, but it is certainly Chavez who has the initiative here. For the US being cut-off of Venezuelan oil meant they had to take oil supplies that would be freed up by customers who take over the Venezuelan oil. In case that is China, it could set free oil supplies in Iran, Russia and Sudan. In fact all countries which are not on the "preferred bidder list", either for political or cost reasons. As an alternative they could offer higher prices for oil of their preferred suppliers, which in turn increases the entire oil price. So no good either.

In fact think what the Bush administration makes so angry about Chavez is not his political standpoint or his opinion of the US - it's the fact that there is no choice, no practical initiative on their side. Chavez knows that and can play the strong man. He's is sort of street-smart and likes to provoke. If I was a US decision maker, I would actually swallow my pride, be happy about every day I don't need to source my oil from somewhere else and wait for the day he fails by his own arrogance. One needs to be very subtle with these type of guys. Becoming aggressive is just a waste of energy here and (further) loss of face. The latter being the real problem when you already got a bloody nose on the international level.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 99):
I would be interested to know if the contract for the supply of F16's made it clear that the supply of spares was conditional on Venezuela saying uncle.

Be it defense equipment or oil: No contract survives political opposition for a longer time.
 
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keesje
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:22 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 43):
Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
He thinks he can defend from a US Invasion by arming civilians with AK47s.

Yeah, that'll work...

It worked before  Sad

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 121):
The superhornet while not given much credit outside the US is a very agile and modern fighter along with ground attack. It is very capable of handling the SU-30 in a one on one battle.

Maybe, but is a U2 ?, not sure this video made Fox..


avion u2 interceptado por un F-16 venezolano

Quoting Art (Reply 101):
Don't buy US equipment, you risk problems

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 40):
Chavez though...cash, and an ideology closer to that of Moscow...they'll keep him well stocked...until he does something Putin dislikes...

Don't buy Russian equipment, you risk problems

Solution: is there one?

Ask Sadam, South Africa, Libya. Mirage someone ?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
KevinSmith
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:15 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 142):

avion u2 interceptado por un F-16 venezolano

Roughly translated the caption says "U2 airplane by a Venezuelan F-16"
It's not a SU-30 intecepting the supposed U2?

What is the point of the video?
Learning to fly, but I ain't got wings.
 
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keesje
Posts: 13959
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:23 pm

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 143):
What is the point of the video?

It is about anything else then a F22 entering Venezuelan airspace having an issue with not so bad aircraft and not so bad pilots.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
Joined: Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:31 pm

RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Tue Sep 18, 2007 1:04 am

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 143):
Roughly translated the caption says "U2 airplane by a Venezuelan F-16"

Looks as if the F-16 is already way beyond it's service ceiling and struggling getting above 56,000ft. At one time it got something in pipper way above. The U2 is most certainly too far away to lock an AIM-9L, which is the only confirmed AirToAir weapon of the Venezuelan F-16. So strictly speaking it is not able to intercept it.

Quoting KevinSmith (Reply 143):
It's not a SU-30 intecepting the supposed U2?

Nope, the HUD is the typical F-16 HUD. Also a Su-30 would probably have less problems going through 60,000ft mark.
 
Acheron
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:24 am

That happened back in 1992, anyway.
 
Acheron
Posts: 1852
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Sep 21, 2007 9:43 am

Forgot this.

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 145):
The U2 is most certainly too far away to lock an AIM-9L, which is the only confirmed AirToAir weapon of the Venezuelan F-16.

At the time, maybe but you can add Python-IV to the list and sometimes they have been spotted using old AIM-9P's for live-fire training along with the Limas, but they are on the way out.

What happened in the video its kind of brave and stupid at the same time. Brave for pushing the envelope to acomplish the the mission, and stupid for doing so without the apropiate equipment(in this case, lets say a pressurised suit). Backstory two it, the U-2 was detected and two F-16 were scrambled, pushing the planes to the limit to the point one of the Vipers had to return since it was staring to get cabin pressure issues and decided not to risk the plane. Obviously, the U-2 was beyond the F-16 envelope without BVR missiles.
I'm sure the U-2 pilot had lots of fun when its RWR alerts started.

There a few videos of the venezuelan Vipers in Red Flag somewhere around youtube.

As for the Il-76, there will be 6-8 transports, 2 tankers and a undertemined number of AWACS, most likely than not with PS-90 engines and Thales avionics. Also a large number of An-74 with Thales avionics also, but that deal is on hold until Ukraine decides what to do with its Congress.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:43 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 147):
Also a large number of An-74 with Thales avionics also, but that deal is on hold until Ukraine decides what to do with its Congress.

Will those be from unfinished new-builds or refurbished used frames? Does the Ukrainian Congress have issues with Russian cooperation in manufacturing?......

http://www.royfc.com/cgi-bin/today/acft_news.cgi

Russia Selling Ukraine to South America

Quote:
"The aircraft industry of the two countries is preparing an export deal.

Rosoboronehksport is holding negotiations with Venezuela’s government about the delivery of a huge batch of airplanes, the greater part of which will be (in case of entering into a contract) assembled in Ukraine. the general director of the Aviatsiya Ukrainy state concern, Oleg Shevchenko, said yesterday. According to him, Venezuela is intending to buy different types of military transport airplanes from Russia for approximately one billion dollars.

[.....]

According to Mr. Shevchenko’s information, Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and Ukraine’s prime minister Viktor Yanukovich, discussed the delivery of Ukrainian airplanes to Venezuela via Rosoboronehksport during the MAKS-2007 international air salon which took place outside Moscow in August.

KhGAPP press secretary Sergey Araslanov announced to Vremya Novostey that the plant is ready to fulfill a huge order, since the enterprise has 'not fewer than 40' An-74 in reserve in different stages of readiness."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
PADSpot
Posts: 1637
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RE: Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:56 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 147):
I'm sure the U-2 pilot had lots of fun when its RWR alerts started.

I don't think they had overflown Venezuela if there had been any danger. But I am sure there was something like "I hope our analyst are right about their lack of BVR missiles ..." the U2 pilot's head.

That's were some batteries of S300PMU2 come in handy. Maybe commandante Hugo can add it to his shopping list.

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