Chavez's 30 New Su-30's...

AirRyan · Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:04 pm

Done deal - so what does Chavez now do with his F-16's? (Iran wouldn't even want them and they would be destroyed on any boat ride over there anyways.) Now that Chavez is trying to become a key member of the UN Security Council, what could USN Super Hornets really do up against some Su-30's? I wonder what kinds of radars and weapons will be sold to Venezula as well, and what those helicopters are that they mentioned, too?

Quote:
MOSCOW - Russia has struck a deal worth more than $1 billion to supply fighter jets and helicopters to Venezuela, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Friday.

“The contract was concluded ... for the delivery of 30 Su-30 fighter aircraft and the delivery of the same number of helicopters,” state-owned Rossiya television showed Ivanov saying.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13972383/

aislepathlight · Sun Jul 23, 2006 2:50 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
what could USN Super Hornets really do up against some Su-30's?

Hawkeyes+AMRAAMs (supplied by the F18s)= success. Com'on, there are 30 of them... I would put any carriers air wing up against those any day. I would even wager that a Tico or any Aegis ship could hold its own against them.

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
what those helicopters are that they mentioned, too?

I would guess they are Ka-50s or 52 or some combination of both.

jwenting · Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:02 pm

SM-3ER, blast them out of the sky before they even fly out over water Smile

stormbringer · Sun Jul 23, 2006 4:27 pm

Who is training the pilots? Remember how well the soviet trained Iraqi air force did in the first gulf war? Then there was the Beka Valley turkey shoot....

Devilfish · Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:24 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Russia has struck a deal worth more than $1 billion to supply fighter jets and helicopters to Venezuela, Russian Defense Minister Sergei Ivanov said on Friday. “The contract was concluded ... for the delivery of 30 Su-30 fighter aircraft and the delivery of the same number of helicopters,”

Only $1+ Billion for 30 Su-30s and 30 helos? That's a bargain - the Russians must be having a store-clearance sale!

F4N · Sun Jul 23, 2006 6:53 pm

Quoting Jwenting (Reply 2):
SM-3ER, blast them out of the sky before they even fly out over water

To all:

Let's be a little realistic here. Unless the Russians sold them a very much downgraded version, these are very advanced warplanes capable of carrying some of the best Russian weaponry. One has to respect that...

I would assume this represents nothing more than another Bush-baiting, Chavez crazy

PR gimmick.

F4N

Lumberton · Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:17 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 4):
Only $1+ Billion for 30 Su-30s and 30 helos? That's a bargain - the Russians must be having a store-clearance sale!

Unbelievably good deal if true! Maybe the USAF should buy a couple of dozen for the agressor role?

Quoting F4N (Reply 5):
I would assume this represents nothing more than another Bush-baiting, Chavez crazy PR gimmick.

One wonders what they are for? Yesterday there was a news report that along the border with Columbia, many people were found massacred. The report didn't say who was responsible. Drug gangs, guerillas, militias, all are suspected. Perhaps they're for "border patrol"?

[Edited 2006-07-23 14:19:11]

pavlin · Sun Jul 23, 2006 9:33 pm

The venezuelan air force sure has some equipment to fight.

Dougloid · Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:29 pm

Now the Venezuelan AF is going to get to learn about product support, Russian style LOL.

LY744 · Sun Jul 23, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
Now the Venezuelan AF is going to get to learn about product support, Russian style LOL.

Oh please. This isn't 1991.

LY744.

MigFan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:27 am

Quoting F4N (Reply 5):
Let's be a little realistic here. Unless the Russians sold them a very much downgraded version, these are very advanced warplanes capable of carrying some of the best Russian weaponry. One has to respect that...

I would assume this represents nothing more than another Bush-baiting, Chavez crazy PR gimmick.

I agree completely. The Su-30s are good aircraft, but only as good as their pilots. The USN/USMC flyers are incredibly well trained and exercised in modern air combat. No offense to the FAV, but they do not match up.

If Chavez actually thinks he could thwart any invasion with 30 Su-30s at the tip of his spear, he is a very poorly trained strategist...

I suspect the choppers to be a mix of Mi-35, Mi-171Sh.

/M

AirRyan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 2:25 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
Unbelievably good deal if true! Maybe the USAF should buy a couple of dozen for the agressor role?

I second that!

RAPCON · Mon Jul 24, 2006 3:00 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
Now the Venezuelan AF is going to get to learn about product support, Russian style LOL

No kidding. 30 purchased, with the abilities of the VZAF and the reliability of the SU, means that on a daily basis the VZAF will have an avialbility of about 6-8.

Without any military threats, those boneheads should've spent the money in more utility helos and light transports.

Lumberton · Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:58 am

Anyone know which variant of the SU-30 that Venezuela is getting? As discussed on other threads, the fighter is only one variable in the battlespace equation, but these are serious kick @ss aircraft! I still can't get over the advertised cost....
Edited for speellang.

[Edited 2006-07-23 22:07:55]

L410Turbolet · Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:14 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 8):
Now the Venezuelan AF is going to get to learn about product support, Russian style LOL.

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Oh please. This isn't 1991.

Tell that to anyone who has experienced MiG-21s sitting idle for weeks because tires for that a/c were simply not available or who has unwrapped shipment of Mi-24 rotor blades only to realize that they've sent used ones. And no we're not talking about 1991 but sometime between 1999 and 2001.

MigFan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:25 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
I concur.

Don't hold back now, tell us how you feel...

/M

SlamClick · Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:14 am

Well this will do a lot of good for his people!

I'm not advocating unnecessary war against Venezuela. I've been there. I like the country. But as we speak a bunch of guys at the Pentagon are thinking about how they could lure the whole damn fleet into the air then bug out. Meanwhile they crater every runway the things could possibly reach. Let the Venzuelans shoot down their own air force by ejecting from it.

Plan B: Take out their entire capacity to distribute Jet fuel. Destroy them on the ground at leisure.

CTR · Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:35 am

Lately, Chavez has been begun to lose influence with his neighbors. With the exception of Bolivia, his revolution is stalling.

We can only hope that now he does not try to gain with force what he cannot buy with oil.

Take care,

CTR

MigFan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:28 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
Plan B: Take out their entire capacity to distribute Jet fuel. Destroy them on the ground at leisure

Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

/M

RAPCON · Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:56 am

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):
Chavez is on a par with Ray "Chocolate City" Nagin.

Excuse me, but the ONLY CHOCOLATE CITY in the World is Washington DC!!!

Don't believe me? Jst check out what the boys in the greatest funk band ever "PARLIAMENT" say:

Big version: Width: 352 Height: 348 File size: 70kb

F4N · Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:24 am

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
I'm not advocating unnecessary war against Venezuela. I've been there. I like the country. But as we speak a bunch of guys at the Pentagon are thinking about how they could lure the whole damn fleet into the air then bug out. Meanwhile they crater every runway the things could possibly reach. Let the Venzuelans shoot down their own air force by ejecting from it.

Plan B: Take out their entire capacity to distribute Jet fuel. Destroy them on the ground at leisure.

To all:

I would think that the Pentagon folk have far more serious matters to consider than war with Venezuela even if it is run by a Che or Fidel wannabe. IMO, the less credence that the world gives him, the sooner he will go away based on his own ineptitude.

regards,

F4N

Dougloid · Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:29 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15):
Tell that to anyone who has experienced MiG-21s sitting idle for weeks because tires for that a/c were simply not available or who has unwrapped shipment of Mi-24 rotor blades only to realize that they've sent used ones. And no we're not talking about 1991 but sometime between 1999 and 2001.

I knew a guy who was the head of aircraft maintenance for Zambia Consolidated Copper Mines back when Kaunda was prez. They had MiG21s. I asked him how they were and he said "Good, simple, and strong. But the biggest problem the air force has is getting guys to go on the maintenance training courses in Russia. Some of the fitters would threaten suicide as a way of getting out of it."

So, yeah, Hugo....buy all the Russian hardware you want-or how about some nice Chinese T72s or reverse engineered Korean SCUDS? This is hilarious.

aislepathlight · Mon Jul 24, 2006 1:02 pm

Quoting F4N (Reply 21):

I would think that the Pentagon folk have far more serious matters to consider than war with Venezuela even if it is run by a Che or Fidel wannabe. IMO, the less credence that the world gives him, the sooner he will go away based on his own ineptitude.

Yeah, you might have a point there...

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 22):

So, yeah, Hugo....buy all the Russian hardware you want-or how about some nice Chinese T72s or reverse engineered Korean SCUDS? This is hilarious.

I am trembling in my shoes as I type this. That AK47 plant has to be the one of the funnier things that I have heard lately... Just show up on some back streets in any major drug trafficing city, and you could buy one for everyone in the world.

Gary2880 · Mon Jul 24, 2006 6:27 pm

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 17):
Take out their entire capacity to distribute Jet fuel. Destroy them on the ground at leisure.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):
Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

plebs.

anyway to my point. ive been hearing murmors of this Su-30. just how good is it. ive even heard some people say it is better than the F-22 in some areas?... agility seems to be the main thing?

[Edited 2006-07-24 11:56:22]

MigFan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:45 pm

Quoting Gary2880 (Reply 24):
plebs.

plebs???

The Su-30 is the best Russia has to offer right now. It is not better than the F-22. the only edge it could have over the Raptor is cost. It is not that much of a financial risk t osend one into battle.

/M

bennett123 · Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:55 pm

Two points here;

1. F16 without spares are scrap. So he currently is somewhat limited in the fighter/border patrol arena.

2. He has mentioned selling on the F16's, I do not recall any threat of attacking the USA, (or anyone else).

RAPCON · Mon Jul 24, 2006 9:28 pm

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 26):
. He has mentioned selling on the F16's, I do not recall any threat of attacking the USA, (or anyone else).

He can't sell them without US permission. If he does, VZ will get sued here and VZ assets in the US will be attached.

MigFan · Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:16 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 27):
He can't sell them without US permission.

The lack of US permission is not going to stop him from trying. The potential customers are not going to be on the US' A-list, so they would probably not give a hoot what the US says about the sale. I also doubt the US will take the time to physically blockade a country to prevent the sale of 20+ aged fighters.

Iran is the only nation with capability, them and China. I suspect both nations have the potential to reverse-engineer the aircraft's technology or the aircraft themselves.

/M

A342 · Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:35 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):
Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

Driving the oil price up, maybe over 100$$ ? Yeah, that's really the USA's interest... Yeah sure

Maybe Venezuela should buy some S400 missiles...

bennett123 · Mon Jul 24, 2006 10:54 pm

Perhaps he should simply scrap them them and make a big play on the point that the US sells you equipment, but reserves the right to withdraw support, making that equipment worthless.

deltadc9 · Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:08 pm

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 20):
Excuse me, but the ONLY CHOCOLATE CITY in the World is Washington DC!!!

Tell that to the folks in Hershey, PA!

Quoting Migfan (Reply 28):
The lack of US permission is not going to stop him from trying

The reply above yours is key to the discussion. They have far too many assets in the US to risk that over some scrap metal.

RAPCON · Mon Jul 24, 2006 11:45 pm

Quoting Migfan (Reply 28):
The lack of US permission is not going to stop him from trying. The potential customers are not going to be on the US' A-list, so they would probably not give a hoot what the US says about the sale. I also doubt the US will take the time to physically blockade a country to prevent the sale of 20+ aged fighters.

He ain't never gonna do it. Chavez is a lot of bluster but he is well aware that he needs to continue exporting to the US market. That's why he talks a lot, but doesn't back it up. VZ heavy oil's viscosity makes it more expensive to drill and refine than regular oil. Currently only the US has the refining capacity for such oil. So we're his #1 market for a long long long time.

If he sells them without permission, he gets sued in US COURTS. Of course the Court will impose severe damages knowing that there are plenty of assets of VZ in the US (ex: CITGO) that the US can look towards for recovery.

LMP737 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:00 am

Quoting LY744 (Reply 9):
Oh please. This isn't 1991.

The Luftwaffe expericed Russian product support firsthand with their MIG-29's. Let's just say it was somewhat to be desired.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):
Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

A lot of Venezuelan oil is refined here in the states. Attacking Venzuela would accomplish three things. Throw the region into turmoil, wreck our economy and give a gift to Hugo. People in Venezuela who are opposed to Hugo would rally around the flag.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 28):
Iran is the only nation with capability, them and China. I suspect both nations have the potential to reverse-engineer the aircraft's technology or the aircraft themselves.

Iran has yet to reverse engineer a US built aircraft and build it themselves. Even with all the experince they have with the F-14 they only have a fraction of the fleet flying. With no knowledge about the F-16 they would be nothing more than overpriced lawn ornaments.

Lumberton · Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:21 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 33):
The Luftwaffe expericed Russian product support firsthand with their MIG-29's. Let's just say it was somewhat to be desired.

Didn't Peru operate Soviet era and post-Soviet equipment? Anyone know what their experience was like with logistic support? Seems to me that the "world" will be watching the Russians' performance here--not to mention the Sukhoi RRJ.

MigFan · Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:15 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 33):
Iran has yet to reverse engineer a US built aircraft and build it themselves. Even with all the experince they have with the F-14 they only have a fraction of the fleet flying. With no knowledge about the F-16 they would be nothing more than overpriced lawn ornaments.

That is not entirely accurate. The F-14 is not the only player in their arsenal. Iran has kept their fleets of C-130s, F-4s, Cobra, and P-3s flying, by manufacturing their own spares. They reverse-engineered versions of the AB206/AB212, and a version of the F-5B. Not to mention they have built their own jet trainer. The capability is there.

They are working on (or have) nuclear weapons as well. I am glad you are not in charge of my intel...

/M

LMP737 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:39 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 35):
That is not entirely accurate. The F-14 is not the only player in their arsenal. Iran has kept their fleets of C-130s, F-4s, Cobra, and P-3s flying, by manufacturing their own spares. They reverse-engineered versions of the AB206/AB212, and a version of the F-5B. Not to mention they have built their own jet trainer. The capability is there.

There's a big difference between manufacturing your own parts and trainer aircraft and building a front line fighter.

MigFan · Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:49 am

Never under-estimate an opponent, that is a sure-fire way to get one's ass kicked.

Moot point anyway, Chavez probably will not sell anything to anyone.

/M

PPVRA · Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:00 am

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 34):
Didn't Peru operate Soviet era and post-Soviet equipment? Anyone know what their experience was like with logistic support? Seems to me that the "world" will be watching the Russians' performance here--not to mention the Sukhoi RRJ.

YES! Not sure about their current status, although I suspect it can't be good, but a year or two ago they were grounded for lack of maintnance IIRC. Not sure if that's due to them being short on $$$ or due to russian logistical support, tho.

Cheers

deltadc9 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 6:19 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 35):
They are working on (or have) nuclear weapons as well. I am glad you are not in charge of my intel...

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 36):
There's a big difference between manufacturing your own parts and trainer aircraft and building a front line fighter.

You beat me to it. BIG DIFFERENCE!

Boeing4ever · Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:22 am

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 15):
Tell that to anyone who has experienced MiG-21s sitting idle for weeks because tires for that a/c were simply not available or who has unwrapped shipment of Mi-24 rotor blades only to realize that they've sent used ones. And no we're not talking about 1991 but sometime between 1999 and 2001.

You forget my dear friend that Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc have fallen out of favor with the Russians...

Chavez though...cash, and an ideology closer to that of Moscow...they'll keep him well stocked...until he does something Putin dislikes...

airplane

B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane

LMP737 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:14 am

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 40):
You forget my dear friend that Poland, Czech Republic, Hungary, etc have fallen out of favor with the Russians...

I'm sure most Poles are heartbroken about this. Wink

Boeing4ever · Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:05 am

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 41):
I'm sure most Poles are heartbroken about this.

The force is strong in this one... Big grin

We'll make you a Polak yet...as soon as we teach you how to steal a BMW. Wink

B4e-Forever New Frontiers airplane

luisde8cd · Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:51 pm

On July 5th, I saw a pair of SU-30s overfly my house at about 1000 ft AGL. Those birds are HUGE compared to the F16s and Mirages.

Quoting AislepathLight (Reply 1):
I would guess they are Ka-50s or 52 or some combination of both

The choppers are Hinds and transport choppers Mi-8s. Very very large ones by the way... I've seen them a couple of times.

Quoting Stormbringer (Reply 3):
Who is training the pilots? Remember how well the soviet trained Iraqi air force did in the first gulf war? Then there was the Beka Valley turkey shoot....

The FAV pilots have been trained by the French and US Air forces.

(PIC copyright Favclub)

USAF F-15 in formation with FAV F16 during joint exercises in Venezuelan air space.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 6):
One wonders what they are for? Yesterday there was a news report that along the border with Columbia, many people were found massacred. The report didn't say who was responsible. Drug gangs, guerillas, militias, all are suspected. Perhaps they're for "border patrol"?

Chavez will never touch the leftist guerrillas because they are their main political ally in Colombia. Everytime an attack from Colombia happens in Venezuela, Chavez blames the right-wing paramilitary forces that battle the guerrillas.

Quoting Pavlin (Reply 7):
The venezuelan air force sure has some equipment to fight.

Indeed. The FAV is the best equipped air force in the Americas after the US and Canada.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 10):

I agree completely. The Su-30s are good aircraft, but only as good as their pilots. The USN/USMC flyers are incredibly well trained and exercised in modern air combat. No offense to the FAV, but they do not match up.

Migfan, I don't think anyone can decide which pilots are better. All I can say is that Venezuelan F16 pilots in some occassions have scored higher than Israeli Air Force pilots in the RED FLAG exercises in Nellis AFB, Nevada. USAF's Lt. General, Thomas Baker, Commander of the 12th Air Force once said: "FAV's F16 pilots are definetely among the best in the world"

The skills of the FAV pilots are thanks to their excellent training by the USAF.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 10):
If Chavez actually thinks he could thwart any invasion with 30 Su-30s at the tip of his spear, he is a very poorly trained strategist...

He thinks he can defend from a US Invasion by arming civilians with AK47s.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 10):

I suspect the choppers to be a mix of Mi-35, Mi-171Sh.

Yea, something like that.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 12):
Without any military threats, those boneheads should've spent the money in more utility helos and light transports.

Completely agree with you.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 13):

Instead of indulging the latin american dictator penchant for pissing contests, perhaps "man of the people" Chavez would do better to spend some money on infrastructure and poverty relief and assistance. It's not as if he needs the fucking things, but he's so obsessed with showing the hated yanquis that his penis is bigger that he's willing to piss away millions that could have been better spent improving the lives of the people who elected him. That and the AK47 factory he's negotiating for. What a douchebag. Chavez is on a par with Ray "Chocolate City" Nagin.

Couldn't have said it better. Welcome to my RR list!

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 14):
Anyone know which variant of the SU-30 that Venezuela is getting?

SU-30MK

Quoting Migfan (Reply 19):
Hit'em where it really hurts! Destroy their refineries...

That will be great for oil prices worldwide. Especially when you consider that Venezuela has the world's largest refinary which can refine around 1 million barrels a day.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

MigFan · Tue Jul 25, 2006 8:31 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
The FAV is the best equipped air force in the Americas after the US and Canada.

I don't think I would go that far. I would Brasil over the FAV, they have AWACS capability, so does the FACh. Chile also aquired themselves some brand-new F-16s. We cannot ignore Peru either, I would give them a fair run over the FAV.

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
He thinks he can defend from a US Invasion by arming civilians with AK47s.

Yeah, that'll work...

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
USAF F-15 in formation with FAV F16 during joint exercises in Venezuelan air space.

That is an old picture, the F-15 wearing full color markings. The F-16's paint looks a little fresh, but who can tell with such a crappy picture?

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
That will be great for oil prices worldwide. Especially when you consider that Venezuela has the world's largest refinary which can refine around 1 million barrels a day.

Are you talking about the oil prices that already suck? Nations will not always be able to use oil as a way to leverage their position against the US. If we wanted it, we could take it.

/M

RAPCON · Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:49 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
The FAV pilots have been trained by the French and US Air forces.

So have the Saudis, but that does not stop them from being easy hamburgers.

RAPCON · Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:53 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
Indeed. The FAV is the best equipped air force in the Americas after the US and Canada.

Well, the Brasilians will probably disagree with you. As for my former military experience in exercises with all the major South American nations, I will tell you that the Chileans completely eclipse everyone by a HUGE margin in terms of skill, performance, and professionalism. VZ is not even in the same ballpark as the Chileans--not even close.

LMP737 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:58 pm

Quoting Boeing4ever (Reply 42):
We'll make you a Polak yet

I have Polish cousins, does that count?

[Edited 2006-07-25 16:23:04]

LMP737 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:26 pm

Quoting Luisde8cd (Reply 43):
He thinks he can defend from a US Invasion by arming civilians with AK47s.

I noticed that old Hugo was recently in Belarus paying tribute to their president who is commonly refered to as "Europe's last dictator".

AGM100 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 11:57 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
Super Hornets really do up against some Su-30's? I

Well the short answer is :shoot them down But most likely the poor Sukhoi's would be smoking on the tarmac before they were employed. If hostilities ever broke out between the US and Venezuela, militarily it would be a short affair. Fighting a land war would be different of course , Venezuela has tough terrain ideal for insurgent warfare.

It all comes down to training , and I just dont see Venezuala keeping up. I am more curious about the missles they have in their inventory. Could they mount a sneak attack with a long range AS/AGM ?

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 31):
Excuse me, but the ONLY CHOCOLATE CITY in the World is Washington DC!!!

OK Delta ,your entitled to you opinion however wrong it is. I was born in the only "World Chocolate Town" Hershey Pennsylvania 8-1-1967!!

luisde8cd · Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:07 am

Quoting Migfan (Reply 44):
I don't think I would go that far. I would Brasil over the FAV, they have AWACS capability, so does the FACh. Chile also aquired themselves some brand-new F-16s. We cannot ignore Peru either, I would give them a fair run over the FAV.

Ok we can disagree here again. 30 Su-30mk + 22 F16 + 23 F5s + 16 Mirage 50 add up 91 fighter aircraft. Which is a very impresive number for a 25 million population country. The only thing that the FAV is lacking is Awacs but again I don't think that the FACh or the FAB could be better equipped by only having Awacs.

Quoting Migfan (Reply 44):
That is an old picture, the F-15 wearing full color markings. The F-16's paint looks a little fresh, but who can tell with such a crappy picture?

What are you trying so suggest?

Quoting Migfan (Reply 44):
Are you talking about the oil prices that already suck? Nations will not always be able to use oil as a way to leverage their position against the US. If we wanted it, we could take it.

Of course. We all know the US's firepower cannot be matched by any current military force on Earth. You guys can take over the whole world if you'd like.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 46):
Well, the Brasilians will probably disagree with you. As for my former military experience in exercises with all the major South American nations, I will tell you that the Chileans completely eclipse everyone by a HUGE margin in terms of skill, performance, and professionalism. VZ is not even in the same ballpark as the Chileans--not even close.

I respect your opinion, but I still stand with mine. The fact that the goverment of the country is run by a lunatic doesn't mean that it's Air force loses its reputation won over the years. If you have the time, check out the RED FLAG excercises of 1992, 1996 and 2000 and you will see how the FAV has never had a plane shot down and has achived a very good reputation with its F16 pilots.

It's sad to see how Americans think of Venezuela nowdays. The USA used to be our main ally. Close cooperaton for more then a century. Now we are in the same league as N Korea, Iran, Syria, etc... Fuck my country's goverment for doing this.

Saludos desde Caracas,
Luis

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