Good news for BAE and Britain.

Saudi Arabia has confirmed it is to buy 72 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft from the UK, in a deal that could be worth more than £6bn.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5262120.stm

Congrats on the contract BAE!

Can't say we didn't see that coming...

/M

It will be interesting to see what weapons they will want for the aircraft. I guess they will also need some Hawks with compatible avionics etc

WOW!! Incredible contract for BAE!! Another nail in the RAFALE coffin!

This is also good news for LM and the F22 sale to Israel!!

The Israeli government can now easily justify to the US Congress the F22 sale in light of the new a/c, while at the same time the decision to purchase Typhoons decreases to almost zero the option of the Saudi's to purchase and deploy F22's. Even if the Saudi's change their minds in the future, the pro-Israel pols will easily veto any prospective sale of F22's to the RSAF for a long time.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3): Even if the Saudi's change their minds in the future, the pro-Israel pols will easily veto any prospective sale of F22's to the RSAF for a long time.

I get the impression, and this may just be me, that above board relations have cooled between SA and the US. I do not think either side wants to make a big deal out of it, because I also believe that we still are pretty close behind the scenes. Politically, in the US they are seen as a liability because of 9-11 and their diminishing power over the oil market is not helping either.

This purchase is probably seen as a very good development in D.C. and in the Middle East because it is a public declaration that they dont always do what the US wants. This also makes it easier for them to go along with us when we need them to the next time. Pretty convenient really, seeing as there is probably ZERO chance of the F-22 getting exported to all but a few of our closest allies. I doubt South Korea even has a chance much less an Arab state.

On the other hand, the almost complete silence of most Middle East states with regards to Iraq shows that while a lot of the world disapproves of the Iraq occupation, they for whatever reason do not disapprove enough to make a big deal out of it. I think that reason is that we are still close with many of these states and they are willing to accept our occupation for reasons that may not be clear to us.

One of the most complex political scenarios in history really.

Make no mistake, Rafale fought hard for this, but it has no coffin so no nails required.

I would venture Israel is far from certain to get F-22, true they would not really have to pay for it, but they are far from clean when it comes to provided sensitive US technology to say, China.

In any case, when has the Saudi AF ever threatened Israel?
Never.

Quoting GDB (Reply 5): In any case, when has the Saudi AF ever threatened Israel?

They would'nt, unless they would want F-16s over Medina.

/M

Quoting DeltaDC9 (Reply 4): I doubt South Korea even has a chance much less an Arab state.

I think the ROKAF has a slim chance, slim, but it's possible. But the RSAF is not going to get it.

Clearly the IDF and the JASDF will buy F22's and in large quantities.

RAAF/CAF are marginal on the issue because of the $$ involved, even though the RAAF seems to be swimming in $$$ at this moment.

The F22 is ideal for Canada--twin engine, long range--unfortunately Canada currently does not have a threat (any emerging threat would be covered by the USAF) and the Liberal government has a history of nor buying what the troops need, but what the civilians think that the troops need. So I don't see the maple leaf on an F22.

Quoting GDB (Reply 5): Make no mistake, Rafale fought hard for this, but it has no coffin so no nails required.

If that sucker don't sell, it's history for Dassault's fighter future. The IAF is the sole salvation for Dassault. No sale for India, no more independent French fighter manufacturer. H.I.S.T.O.R.Y.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): Clearly the IDF and the JASDF will buy F22's and in large quantities.

Bit optimistic, aren't you? Do you mean they would like to buy F22's and in large quantities?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): Quoting GDB (Reply 5): Make no mistake, Rafale fought hard for this, but it has no coffin so no nails required. If that sucker don't sell, it's history for Dassault's fighter future. The IAF is the sole salvation for Dassault. No sale for India, no more independent French fighter manufacturer. H.I.S.T.O.R.Y.

It's a shame the Europeans could not agree what multirole aircraft to build 20 or so years ago. More or less duplicating design efforts to produce 2 similar aircraft is not a clever use of limited development funds.

I tend to agree that France would not want to finance another Dassault solo effort a la Rafale.

Quoting Art (Reply 8): Bit optimistic, aren't you? Do you mean they would like to buy F22's and in large quantities?

The IDF has already filed a formal request with DoD and the US Gov for an initial buy of 24 F-22's. If the IDF were to do a 1-1 exchange with their F-15's (only the fighter models, not the E's) we're looking at upwards of 72 units--the same number as the RSAF's Typhoon deal.

Now everyone knows that the US will pay a big portion of the any F-22 purchase from Israel's military aid fund. This kinda helps the purpose, from the USAF perspective, of selling them overseas to get the cost per unit down for themselves.

Now, assume that the JASDF will also want to replace the F-15 on a 1-1 basis. That's over 140 units.

So 72 + 140 = a nice phat reduction is cost to the USAF = more purchases.

And if the price goes down enough....the RAAF will start sniffing.

Want to put money on those rather wild claims RAPCON?

Still, we look forward to seeing Saudi AF Typhoons, I suspect their crews cannot wait to fly one, and do some supercruise while they are at it.

Quoting GDB (Reply 10): Still, we look forward to seeing Saudi AF Typhoons, I suspect their crews cannot wait to fly one

Me too! It's great news for the workers of BAE and I can't wait to see them being test run. 

Quoting Art (Reply 2): It will be interesting to see what weapons they will want for the aircraft. I guess they will also need some Hawks with compatible avionics etc

I agree, congrats to BAe on the Contract.

Tom  

Quoting GDB (Reply 5): In any case, when has the Saudi AF ever threatened Israel? Never.

Well their K-12 public schools teach their children from a young age that Islam is the only religion on the planet with any sort of legitimacy and that everyone who doesn't abide by Islam is inferior, and they sure must not like how well Israel treats their women since theirs are second class citizens in SA. I don't think SA would shed too many tears if Israel were "wiped off the map." as Iran's Akmed-Ive-Been-Jihad has advocated.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): If that sucker don't sell, it's history for Dassault's fighter future. The IAF is the sole salvation for Dassault. No sale for India, no more independent French fighter manufacturer. H.I.S.T.O.R.Y.

Look for a good deal to India and than if they don't bite, even Israel.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 9): of selling them overseas to get the cost per unit down for themselves.

Not so much selling them overseas, just forward deploying them to the front on the war on terror.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 9): Now, assume that the JASDF will also want to replace the F-15 on a 1-1 basis. That's over 140 units.

Israel and Japan no doubt are ready and able to buy the F-22 in nearly double the numbers that the USAF is currently projected to acquire.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): Liberal government has a history of nor buying what the troops need, but what the civilians think that the troops need. So I don't see the maple leaf on an F22.

You don't have to worry about the Liberals f*cking with defence purchases anymore because they aren't in power.

Unless we go back to a cold war scenario, there is a zero chance of the F-22 ever wearing a maple leaf. And even during the height of the cold war, Canada cancelled its own supreme interceptor - Canadians just don't like having powerful world-beating aircraft it seems. Canada is a junior partner in the JSF program so that will most likely be the eventual replacement for the CF-18s.

I could only see Japan and South Korea as the only possible overseas F-22 customers with Taiwan as a long shot.

Morocco is supposedly interested in buying 12-14 Rafales, but Dassault will not confirm. I also imagine that if the Su-30 deal falls threough in Algeria, the Rafale may have another chance. Plus, if the F-22 is not available to Taiwan for whatever reason, Taipei may opt for the Rafale to replace F-5s and Chung-Kuos.
The "F-35 development cycle" may be too long of a wait, especially if Dassault can sweeten the deal.

What happened to the Greek Eurofighter deal?

Rafales will sell where Dassault has made sales before.

/M

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 3): This is also good news for LM and the F22 sale to Israel!!

Wouldn't a JSF buy be a more probable first?
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ans-to-buy-over-100-f35s/index.php

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13): Israel and Japan no doubt are ready and able to buy the F-22 in nearly double the numbers that the USAF is currently projected to acquire.

If the IASF is really dependent on US military aid for its procurement, how could it be that they get to buy nearly double what the USAF is acquiring?

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 16): Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13): Israel and Japan no doubt are ready and able to buy the F-22 in nearly double the numbers that the USAF is currently projected to acquire. If the IASF is really dependent on US military aid for its procurement, how could it be that they get to buy nearly double what the USAF is acquiring?

If the USAF is only going to be ably to buy 172 F-22's than a combined order of 140 as what was suggested between Israel and Japan total, than that would be nearly double the current total buy of F-22's.

Quoting GDB (Reply 10): Want to put money on those rather wild claims RAPCON?

Well there limey boy, how much? It would behoove that you keep an eye on your wallet. The IDF already has placed a formal order for 25 with Congress. Wanna back down?

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 14): I could only see Japan and South Korea as the only possible overseas F-22 customers with Taiwan as a long shot.

Why is everyone of you forgetting about the IDF? Israel will see the first export unit

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 16): Wouldn't a JSF buy be a more probable first?

No. The 22 will be available way before the 35.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 16): If the IASF is really dependent on US military aid for its procurement, how could it be that they get to buy nearly double what the USAF is acquiring?

What is "IASF"?? Are you referring to the IDF-AF (Israeli Defence Force-Air Force)?

Quoting MigFan (Reply 15): What happened to the Greek Eurofighter deal?

Finance. The incoming government discovered that state finances were worse than expected. Acquisition of a top end fighter is delayed until 2011 onwards.

[Edited 2006-08-19 10:23:39]

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 17): If the USAF is only going to be ably to buy 172 F-22's than a combined order of 140 as what was suggested between Israel and Japan total, than that would be nearly double the current total buy of F-22's.

I don't see the US wanting to finance that big amount at once, which it could otherwise spend on itself. On the other hand, with current developments, it is conceivable that the refusal to sell the F-22 would be overcome, and the request for 24 airframes might be granted. Which could later lead to a multi-year procurement - to balance the Saudi Typhoon buy.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 18): No. The 22 will be available way before the 35.

A senator now hinting about WWIII might just expedite its approval.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 18): What is "IASF"?? Are you referring to the IDF-AF (Israeli Defence Force-Air Force)?

They (or at least the specialist press) coined a new name for themselves - Israel Air and Space Force.

As my post was deleted from Non Aviation, I'll repeat what I said there:

So despite all the rhetoric from Number 10 about helping to build a stable,
democratic, free Middle East, the UK will sell £6bn-worth of Eurofighters to
Saudi Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is a country that has no religious freedom. Everyone must be SunniMuslim, and the government prohibits the practice of all other religions.

It is a country that still has mass capital and corporal punishment, include
limb amputations, beheading and stonings.

It is a country that has no women's rights - women cannot drive or ride
bicycles in big cities. Schools and restaurants are segregated based on gender,often called 'gender apartheid'.

Punishment for homosexuality includes deportation, lashes and even death. All
sex outside of hetrosexual marriage is banned.

There is no freedom of speech or freedom of the press - talk of 'un-Islamic
values' is banned. Trade unions are banned. Political parties are banned.

In light of all this, why does the British government see fit to supply Saudi
Arabia with 72 Eurofighters? They are supporting this barbaric regime that has
little regard for human rights, freedoms or justice.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 9): The IDF has already filed a formal request with DoD and the US Gov for an initial buy of 24 F-22's. If the IDF were to do a 1-1 exchange with their F-15's (only the fighter models, not the E's) we're looking at upwards of 72 units

Thanks for the info about the request. What's the unit production cost of F-22? Over $80 miilion, I guess. That's $50+ billion for 72. How much of that would the US government pay?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 9): Now, assume that the JASDF will also want to replace the F-15 on a 1-1 basis. That's over 140 units.

Japan is going to spend $100+ billion on new fighters? Why replace F-15's on a 1-1 basis with a much more capable aircraft? That would be a massive increase in capability.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21):

So true. I do not really like the fact either that Saudi Arabia is getting the best airplane Europe has to offer. Will they get a weaker Export Version, or is their Eurofighter identical with our versions?

Quoting Art (Reply 22): How much of that would the US government pay?

The USG has never put many restrictions on PAYMENT of authorized weapons to the IDF, just on what sort of weapon they can purchase with our $$$. So for example, while the USG will allow the IDF to buy F22's, and help them pay for it, the sale of TLAM's is just out of the question.

Quoting Art (Reply 22): That would be a massive increase in capability.

To offset the massive increase in capabilities of the neighbors.

Quoting Art (Reply 8): I tend to agree that France would not want to finance another Dassault solo effort a la Rafale.

My understanding is that Dassault is pursuing UAVs and UCAVs.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 9): The IDF has already filed a formal request with DoD and the US Gov for an initial buy of 24 F-22's.

Not that I am questioning you, but do you have a source where I can read up on this? I was unaware of a formal request. Thanks.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13): Look for a good deal to India and than if they don't bite, even Israel.

India, maybe even Morocco. Israel? Never happen. The French have carefully cultivated their image with the Arab world as of late and this would be very upsetting, despite the fact that it would boost the Rafale program. Also, do you think the Israelis would like to be dependent on the French for logistic support the next time they have a "go" with their neighbors?

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 16): Wouldn't a JSF buy be a more probable first?

  

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21): n light of all this, why does the British government see fit to supply Saudi Arabia with 72 Eurofighters?

Al Yamamah III? If EADS doesn't take the business, someone else--most likely Dassault--will.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): unfortunately Canada currently does not have a threat

Why would that be unfortunate?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): Liberal government has a history of nor buying what the troops need, but what the civilians think that the troops need.

Even IF the RCAF where to need the F-22, in the end the civilians end up PAYING for it. And considering the massive pricetag of that thing some civilian input is not that bad a thing.

RAPCON, when I used the term 'Yank' once, one of your over sensitive fellow nationals (and this site is full of 'em) went and cried to the mods, I don't do that-ever, but I'll thank you not to use sneering terms like you just did against me, to try and cover up your lack of knowledge on here, grow up, opinion is NOT fact.

You simply seem to make up stuff all the time, to advance whatever national agenda you may have, again, not uncommon on here.
This section is much less prone to this sort of thing than the others, try to keep it that way please.

By the way, how is your research on the Typhoon's supercruise going?

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 7): Liberal government has a history of nor buying what the troops need, but what the civilians think that the troops need

Ever heard of something called democracy? The most important pillar is that the civilians decide where, when, why, and how the troops are used. If the military things it desperately needs something, they have to convince their politicians.

Civilians must decide about the use of the military. Anything else, and you have a military dictatorship. And guess what? These civilian governments so far won any war against totalitarian states. In Nazi Germany the military decided, yet it lost. The same happened in WW1. I do see a connection there.

I would get concerned when appeasement replaces proper risk assessment, but I doubt that less military automatically means less safety.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21): In light of all this, why does the British government see fit to supply Saudi Arabia with 72 Eurofighters? They are supporting this barbaric regime that has little regard for human rights, freedoms or justice.

No doubt, Pimp Saud part deux needs to go back down there and un-do what they did to the royal family one hundred years ago. No offense, but they never were going to figure out what to do with that bubbling crude anyways because Allah prohibted them from the sciences and as far as I am conerned, they are just as bad as any of the other radical Islmaic states to a certain extent. The sad thing however would be able to see the Saudi's acquire such awesome military equipment and still get their asses handed to them by their local neighbors using inferior equipment because they are tactically so inept - don't have much respect for the competence of the Saudi military to say the least.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25): The French have carefully cultivated their image with the Arab world as of late and this would be very upsetting, despite the fact that it would boost the Rafale program. Also, do you think the Israelis would like to be dependent on the French for logistic support the next time they have a "go" with their neighbors?

I agree it does seem odd, especially since this current cease fire may very well dissapear in great part because of the inept French government, but if the French gave the Israeli's the right to customize the Rafale and make it so they could maintain it without being depended upon them, (license agreements and such,) when you think about it the Rafale is ideally suited for use by the Israeli's.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 13): Look for a good deal to India

Could be France's best chance for a sizeable Rafale export order. I could see a substantial order with local assembly of most of the frames. As I understand it from a.net, India's MiG-21's need replacing soon. Local integration of any additional systems would also make a Rafale deal more interesting to India.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 29): if the French gave the Israeli's the right to customize the Rafale and make it so they could maintain it without being depended upon them, (license agreements and such,) when you think about it the Rafale is ideally suited for use by the Israeli's.

If Israel does not secure the tech transfer required to integrate its own weapons onto the F-35, who knows, they might be looking towards Rafale.

Just my 2 pence.

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 29): Quoting Lumberton (Reply 25): The French have carefully cultivated their image with the Arab world as of late and this would be very upsetting, despite the fact that it would boost the Rafale program. Also, do you think the Israelis would like to be dependent on the French for logistic support the next time they have a "go" with their neighbors? I agree it does seem odd, especially since this current cease fire may very well dissapear in great part because of the inept French government, but if the French gave the Israeli's the right to customize the Rafale and make it so they could maintain it without being depended upon them, (license agreements and such,) when you think about it the Rafale is ideally suited for use by the Israeli's.

You need to know that Dassault Aviation have supported without limit Israel in the past with Mirage deliveries and much more important by giving them full support to develop their long range nuclear missile.

Marcel Dassault was Jew and he spent time in Nazi extermination camp, he have made all possible effort for his religion "Brothers" of Israel. Everybody can understand that. Furthermore, business is business, so in conclusion, I am sure that if USA do not offer their best technology to Israel (F22 and/or F35), Dassault will be very clad to offer Rafale with all necessary information and support to install all their excellent missile and equipment.

The only concern is that they will not do it immediately, but just waiting that situation with Liban, at least, is secure.

Quoting GDB (Reply 27): RAPCON, when I used the term 'Yank' once, one of your over sensitive fellow nationals (and this site is full of 'em) went and cried to the mods, I don't do that-ever, but I'll thank you not to use sneering terms like you just did against me, to try and cover up your lack of knowledge on here, grow up, opinion is NOT fact

I'm not a Yank, but you can call me a Rican all you want--or whatever other ethnic insult you can come up with against Puerto RIcans. I've probably heard them all already and frankly I'm immune to them.

AND I will back you up against any Mod that removes.

Now....in ref to the above statement, I'm afraid that your lack of of knowledge of military weapons and military experience is troubling. This is further luminated by your inability to provide plausible arguments, and thus taking the fall back of "you wanna bet." When that was quickly rebutted by the existence of an official offer by the IDF for an initial purchase of 24 F22's your sole retort was the above diatribe. But you're entitled to a position on the matter, not on the person.

p.s. I hear the RN is recruiting. Join up, they're a fine force!

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 31): Marcel Dassault was Jew and he spent time in Nazi extermination camp, he have made all possible effort for his religion "Brothers" of Israel. Everybody can understand that. Furthermore, business is business, so in conclusion, I am sure that if USA do not offer their best technology to Israel (F22 and/or F35), Dassault will be very clad to offer Rafale with all necessary information and support to install all their excellent missile and equipment.

I'm well aware of M. Dassault's background. However, he has passed on and his son is getting up there in years. Does Serge Dassault still take an active role in the company? I agree "business is business", but where do you think the greater business potential exists: Israel or the rest of the Arab world (sans Saudia Arabia)? And...I'm sure the French government gets a vote on to whom Dassault sells the Rafale.

For Israel to bite on any deal with Dassault, the technology transfers, co-production, logistic support, etc., would have to come with iron-clad guarantees. It could happen, but very doubtful IMO. We'll see. I don't think there will be any hang ups on the part of the U.S. WRT selling the F-35.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 33): I don't think there will be any hang ups on the part of the U.S. WRT selling the F-35.

I think that F-35 without the ability to add locally grown weaponry would not be so interesting to Israel. But then, of course, France would not have a fund to pay the customer's military hardware bill if the customer chose to buy Rafale.

Quoting Art (Reply 30): If Israel does not secure the tech transfer required to integrate its own weapons onto the F-35, who knows, they might be looking towards Rafale.

Quoting ElGreco (Reply 31): if USA do not offer their best technology to Israel (F22 and/or F35), Dassault will be very clad to offer Rafale with all necessary information and support to install all their excellent missile and equipment.

Quoting Art (Reply 34): I think that F-35 without the ability to add locally grown weaponry would not be so interesting to Israel

The Israeli procurement officer was pretty confident.....
Quote:
"Israeli planes generally undergo heavy modifications to incorporate Israeli electronics and weapons systems, and the F-35 will be no exception. The US has allowed the Israelis access to the F-15 and F-16's software after development was complete, and Snir is confident the F-35A's computers will not be an issue. He reiterated that there was "no dispute with the US that IAF F-35s would include Israeli communications and electronic warfare technologies and missiles developed by Rafael Armament Development Authority Ltd."

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 18): Israel will see the first export unit

I don't think so. I think Japan will be the first to get the F-22

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21): I'll repeat what I said there:

Please... This is a business transaction, not a character study.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21): In light of all this, why does the British government see fit to supply Saudi Arabia with 72 Eurofighters?

$$$, jobs, financial security.

Quoting RAPCON (Reply 32): I hear the RN is recruiting. Join up, they're a fine force!

What's that? From my experience, the R.N. is a very professional force.

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 35): Snir is confident the F-35A's computers will not be an issue.

   It should not be a problem at all. Israel has the technical capability. Example, the Pentium M processor, code named "Yonah", was developed independently in Israel.

/M

Quoting CPDC10-30 (Reply 14): possible overseas F-22 customers with Taiwan as a long shot.

Quoting MigFan (Reply 15): Plus, if the F-22 is not available to Taiwan for whatever reason, Taipei may opt for the Rafale to replace F-5s and Chung-Kuos.

Rafale would not fly for Taiwan either - the PROC had seen to that, and France would not sell to Taipei. The confirmed replacement was the Block 52 F-16.
http://www.f-16.net/news_article1888.html

Now, regarding concerns that it is no match for the Sukhois, perhaps we might see the order upgraded to the F-16NG for some parity, in case the latter is unsuccessful in its India bid. And possibly F-35s in the very long term.

[Edited 2006-08-20 01:55:05]

Quoting MigFan (Reply 36): Example, the Pentium M processor, code named "Yonah", was developed independently in Israel.

Its a advancement of the Pentium III core, and it wasnt developed independantly either - it was developed at an Intel Fab18 plant with all of the PentiumPro development source and experience supplied along with over 50 % of the workforce. The technology was supplied by Intel.

The Pentium M is still an impressive achievement tho.

Quoting RichardPrice (Reply 38): Its a advancement of the Pentium III core, and it wasnt developed independantly either - it was developed at an Intel Fab18 plant with all of the PentiumPro development source and experience supplied along with over 50 % of the workforce. The technology was supplied by Intel.

I have heard a different story. Intel was set in developing their mobile P4, and laid the P3 platform to rest. I know where it came from, and it was developed independently in Israel. Sorry, but I disagree.

/M

Quoting MigFan (Reply 39): I have heard a different story. Intel was set in developing their mobile P4, and laid the P3 platform to rest. I know where it came from, and it was developed independently in Israel. Sorry, but I disagree.

It can hardly be called independant when Intel supply 50% of the workforce, the Fab plant, the wafer technology, the original core, the experience and all the rest of the stuff the Haifa teams have utilised to produce the evolution of the PPro core.

The PIII Core was never laid to rest, it was always intended to become the mobile core for low power usage. The P4 core was intended for different applications.

Quoting 777236ER (Reply 21): Saudi Arabia is a country that has no religious freedom. Everyone must be SunniMuslim, and the government prohibits the practice of all other religions.

Well, there are plenty of Shiites on the east coast of the peninsula, which has a lot of oil. They can practice openly. Visitors to the kingdom can practice any religion as long as they do not try to win converts. But I digress.

The Saudi state sucks, as does just about any other state run by an Islamic government. There are almost zero positive examples of Islamic democracy. Turkey comes closest and even it is a long way from say, England or the US. Many basic rights are still not observed there.

The various governments in the region can be distinguished in one way - some have the basic rule of law and some do not. Note that rule of law does NOT mean laws us westerners would like. The sharia law, is, after all, law. The sharia does not allow rullars to take and deal with people as they see fit. There are courts, laws and procedures. When I say a country has the Rule of law I just means that things operate consistently according to an understood set of rules that both the government and its citizens abide by - more or less. A government with the rule of law is not neccesarily good, but it is better than a totalitarian state such as North Korea or Saddam's Iraq. Saudi Arabia has the rule of law. That much can be said for it. The same cannot be said for Saddam's Iraq or for Syria.

The biggest problem we have in Iraq is not establishing democracy, but establishing the rule of law. The place has a long tradition of people in power ignoring laws and simply looking to their own advantage, taking bribes, assasinating people at will, etc. When this is seen as normal behavior, a country cannot have rule of law or prosperity. The rule of law is more important than Democracy. Democracy cannot survive long for without the rule of law - look at the French revolution to see what happens when you have democracy without the rule of law.

Selling weapons to allied non-democracies is IMHO regretable but many times neccesary for strategic and economic reasons. Selling weapons to gangster or totalitarian states is far harder to justify. Nearly every time we've done it, its come back to bite us.

IN SHORT.... Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, but there is a difference between a monarchy and a true totalitarian state. In the Middle East, we are forced to make those distinctions. Otherwise, Israel and perhaps Turkey are the only countries we can deal with.

RAPCON, Not answered yet on your breezy assertion that Typhoon cannot supercruise have you?
This is a yes/no answer, not 'maybe' which Israel is with F-22.

Norway, Netherlands and Denmark have done just the same with Typhoon, as Israel has done for F-22.
But I'm not going to confidently claim that they will go and buy them, it is far from certain.
Because a RFI is nowhere doing that, did you even know that?
(Besides, after being caught out selling US technology to China as Israel has been in the quite recent past, might make a F-22 sale to them-funded by US tax $, a far less certain affair.

Also I am aware of Puerto Rico's status within the US.
You used a term that only some in the US use, against me, I'm not offended personally though, as I said, I don't go crying to the mods, ever.
As for joining up, well I think many on air net, within a certain age group, would benefit if the US reintroduced the draft, knock the lazy 'gung ho' attitude out of them.

Quoting GDB (Reply 42): As for joining up, well I think many on air net, within a certain age group, would benefit if the US reintroduced the draft, knock the lazy 'gung ho' attitude out of them.

What is "lazy, gung ho Attitude"?

/M

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 41): IN SHORT.... Saudi Arabia is a monarchy, but there is a difference between a monarchy and a true totalitarian state.

That is complete nonsense. While it's true that not all totalitarian regimes are monarchies, the converse clearly is not the case. All true monarchies are, by definition, totalitarian. In the case of Saudi Arabia, we are talking about one of the most most repressive governments on the planet.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 41): In the Middle East, we are forced to make those distinctions.

We are forced to do no such thing. We choose to make those distinctions. Our close relationship with various Middle Eastern dictatorships stands as an act of hypocrisy. Our continued support for the Saudi Government, including the sale of F-15s and other advanced weapon systems, furthers the cause of radical Islam and stagnates the prospect of representative government in the region.

Quoting Cloudy (Reply 41): Otherwise, Israel and perhaps Turkey are the only countries we can deal with.

Maybe that's the way it should be. I would prefer it if we didn't sell weapons to most Middle Eastern countries. That is especially true for Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Those two countries are the nexus of radical Islam and global terrorism. We shouldn't sell those countries sophisticated weapons. We should consider USING sophisticated weapons on them.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 44): Quoting Cloudy (Reply 41): Otherwise, Israel and perhaps Turkey are the only countries we can deal with. Maybe that's the way it should be.

Neither of these countries are known for thier respect of human rights. Nevertheless, it is possible that Turkey will become another Typhoon customer soon.

By 'lazy gung ho' I mean the 'let's bomb this country or that country' knee -jerk stuff you hear all the time.
Easy to be like that 3000, 6000 miles or further, from the 'action'.

Israel has had little to fear from Tornado GR.1's or their F-15E versions, despite being by a long way, the most potent strike aircraft in any Arab nation.
The Saudi AF relies on techncial support, while they are quite capable of defending Saudi airspace, long range bombing is another matter.
That 'National Guard' they have, with it's lavish equipment and status, is all about a lingering distrust of the other branches of the Saudi forces.

For air to ground training, you'll not see a Saudi strike aircraft with live weapons and the fuel to reach Royal palaces in the capital, from the airbases they have to deploy to for the training....or so the stories go.

Does the RSAF still have the F-5s in service or are they retired now?

Last year, there was an article in the Defense Industry Daily, reporting on "conditions" set by the Saudis as per a UK Guardian article, that would preceed a Typhoon sale. Here's the article:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...is-only-with-eurofavours/index.php

The conditions were:

Quote: 1. That Britain expel Saad al-Faqih and Mohammed al-Masari, two Saudi dissidents. Britain has become something of a hotbed for Islamist activity in Europe; Faqih, who has asylum in Britain, is accused of being involved in a plot to assassinate King Abdullah and has publicly supported terrorist activity. Masari apparently fled Saudi Arabia in 1994 for Britain, and claims to be only a peaceful dissident. 2. That British Airways resume flights to Riyadh, which have been dropped because of fears of attacks by Wahabbi terrorists. British Airways had hoped the measure would be temporary, but a dearth of willing passengers means there are no plans to resume soon. 3. Finally Saudi Arabia asked that a corruption investigation implicating the Saudi ruling family and BAE should be dropped. Crown Prince Sultan's son-in-law, Prince Turki bin Nasr, seems to be at the center of a "slush fund" probe by the Serious Fraud Office. Last month it made a fresh round of arrests for questioning.

I'm sure the above has been noted before, but given that this is a new thread, I'm curious as to whether those conditions were met. Anyone know?

I am quite sure that the RSAF has retired all of it's F-5s, and sold some off to other nations.

/M