" target practice,,"

( Quoting LAXiktl - Reply 147 )


I totally agree with both Jackonicko and BA.

The point is simply that Lebanon needs to defend itself, and has no interest or intention to attack any one.
Of course the IDFAF enjoys air superiority over its neighbours in the region, and Lebanon has never tried to to either change or even match that.
This fact does not mean, however, that Lebanese aircraft should automatically be termed as "target practice" for their Israeli counterparts. Indeed, there has been only one documented incident of an aerial confrontation between the LAF and the IDFAF. It happened on 5 June 1967, at the beginning of the 6 -Day War. Although Lebanon was not party to that conflict, Israeli aircraft were using its airspace during their attacks on Syria. On one occasion a flight of 4 IDFAF Mystere-4As was intercepted by 4 LAF Hunters resulting in the shooting down of one of the Israeli aircraft, over the village of Kfar Mishki in the Bekaa Valley, with the pilot captured.. It took the intervention of a pair of Israeli Mirage-3Cs to get the remaining Mysteres out of trouble shooting down in the process one of the Lebanese Hunters ( believed to have been an F-70 reg either L-177 or L-179 ), with the pilot tragically killed.
Both sides decided to conveniently keep that encounter under wraps, and the Israeli pilot was quietly handed back . Although the incident and its outcome became some kind of an open secret , even a "cause celebre " amongst the military on both sides of the divide, it seems no one wanted to talk about it in public. After all, Lebanon never really wanted to get invoved in the war, while the Israelis ( as usual ) did not want to reveal that one of their planes was shot down in air-to-air combat. In fact, it was only a couple of weeks ago when the LAF first mentioned this incident " officially" in a brief biography of the Hunter in Lebanese service, issued on the occasion of its reintroduction into operational status last Nov.
So, far from being " target practice" , the encounter between the LAF and the IDFAF turned out to be a "draw ". Not bad when one considers the odds against it.
As for the new MiG-29s, one can only hope that they will never have to fire their guns and missiles in anger against anybody.
But, as everyone also seem to agree, from the US to Russia, a rejuvenated Lebanese Armed Forces, including the MiG-29 equipped LAF, can only be in favour of more security and stability both in Lebanon and for its neighbours.















i

Before turning this forum into a sterile political discussion serving the propaganda of any side, the MIGs will come in handy to firstly protect Lebanon from assaults inside the territory...

We had the Nahr Al Bared event where some good weaponery would have made it easier to nail the terrorist hiding there with precise targeting... it could also be a moving target like a car, trucking equipment moving "illegal" weapons...

... and of course, defend the nation against any form of invasion. Nobody wants to attack Israel or Syria at this stage. Even during the conflict, the LAF remained "neutral"...

So Migs or not, it's the sovereignty of the country at stake. Bear in mind that the Mig is a late 1970s design, so already 30 years old (if we are talking about early version, with basic avionics and weapons)

I would like to congratulate the LAF on the Mig-29s and welcome Lebanon back to the ‘Mach 2’ club although personally I believe that this is not the best of purchases. Lebanon - similar to Cyprus - needs an effective and sophisticated anti aircraft missile system to tackle the belligerent and mighty IAF should push come to shove. Advanced SAM batteries/systems is what is needed as 10 Mig-29s will not do much. I share the view of Hunterson that peaceful and life loving Lebanese will not be picking fights with their nosy neighbors who do not seem to want to leave Lebanon alone. Not wanting to turn this into a political post, yes, Lebanon needs the effective SAMs plus effective light ground attack aircraft that are cheap, easy to maintain and operate but yet can deliver a powerful punch to whoever wants to mess with Lebanon – I would say mainly from within - such as the terror group Fath al Islam. The Hunters will be great, a few Super Tucanos or PC-9s with teeth should do the job. Nevertheless, I enthusiastically await seeing these great Migs in Lebanese camouflage and flying a ‘cedar’ formation.

Many thanks to RJAF for his remarka ( Reply 152 ), and accurate analysis about the Lebanese Air Force and its future plans.
He is quite right in calling for Lebanon to have a credible SAM air-defence system. Also, he is quite right in his view that the LAF needs a reasonably cost-effective capability in ground attack and close support COIN missions, probably best served by types such as the Super Tucano and the PC-9, as well as helicopter gunships.
Hopefully, some of these requirements will be met in due course, through the procurement of Cobra or Mil-35 helicopters, and Cessna-208 Caravan armed COIN and RECCE aircraft.
But, when you get an offer , like the one put forward by Russia, to provide a squadron of MiG-29s free of charge, including the training of pilots and ground crews, then it becomes rather difficult to say no. It is indeed an offer no one in their right minds can refuse.
At the end of the day, it is a step forward, which would put the LAF back in the 21st , century , and welcome it back to the "Mach 2 Club " , as RJAF said, amongst the rest of the world air forces..
So, why not ?
Let us all hopefully enjoy the sight of the beautiful Fulcrums in LAF colours flying in Lebanese skies. They will definitely be worthy successors to the equally beautiful Hunters and Mirages which preceded them.

Goodbye Hunterson. Will miss your posts 

  

This is very sad indeed. He loved this thread so much and wanted to keep it alive with news and developments.
He was a believer and a great patriot.

All the followers of this thread will miss him dearly.

RIP Hunterson.

Things have gone quiet here...

So, since the reintroduction of the three Hunters into the LAF...how have they been doing?

Any info appreciated.

We already miss you Hunterson   

I was driving down the coastal highway to tripoli yesterday and saw the cessna 208 of the LAF flying very low (like 60m), in the opposite direction and slightly to my left.
It was painted in dark green and it looked awesome.

Dear friends,

As you can see, Hunterson's death was a big loss even to this thread that he always somehow liked to keep it fresh and alive.

Going to the real stories in the past few months, the air force recieved a Cessna 208 Caravan from the US last month armed with Hellfire missiles. This can be considered a good addition for much needed COIN missions and the US has promised 2 more of the same type.

Earlier in the year, the UAE anounced that it will give 10 Puma utility helicopters and these are expected to arrive around August of this year.

The previously anounced deal for 10 MiG-29 fighters appears to be still on with the latest from the Russian side saying that the first 2 out of 10 should joint the LAF in November and in time for the Independence parade.

Alongsie the MiG-29 deal, the air force is still seeking advanced jet trainers. A few possibilities have been considered including Chinese K-8s from Egypt but it seems that progress is being made on BAe Hawks.

Finally, in the next few days, Lebanon will take delivery of 3 Sikorsky S-61Ns firefighting helicopters which will be operated by the air force.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 158): Finally, in the next few days, Lebanon will take delivery of 3 Sikorsky S-61Ns firefighting helicopters which will be operated by the air force.

There are billboards over the city depicting these. Im not sure what the message of the ad is, I will pay attention next time I see it.

Quoting OD720 (Reply 158): 3 Sikorsky S-61Ns

Interesting. Where are these coming from? Any troop carrying capabilities?

Quoting RJAF (Reply 160): Interesting. Where are these coming from? Any troop carrying capabilities?

They bought these from Bristow helicopters in the UK. Two are delivered and the 3rd is expected this week.
They will be used for SAR and firefighting missions and be operated by the air force.

Troop carrying is done by the Hueys and the expected 10 Pumas which should be delivered next month.

Lebanon becoming a chopper galore  

So where are the 10 Pumas coming from? (Super Puma's?). On the Puma issue, how many are left from the old days?

I've been reading for a long time, but this is my first post. So a big hello to everyone.

Just thought i would post an update about the LAF.

According to reports, a Russian military delegation will be visiting Lebanon to inspect air bases ahead of the MiG-29 arrival. Also the first batch of Puma helicopters will be arriving in the new year.

http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/ne...B2F0BC225767100301BA6?OpenDocument

[Edited 2009-11-17 02:54:25 by arz]

Quoting Wvsuperhornet (Reply 118): I dont know what Israel is worried about I doubt any equipment sold to lebanon will be as capable as the equipment we sell to Israel.

That may not be a disadvantage.

I was reading a book about the Cobra in Nam and the author said the earlier versions where more battle hardy. They where not full of black boxes that became ballast and inop systems if they took at hit.

Quote: Lebanon, Russia Sign Military Cooperation Memo… No Mention of MiG 29s President Michel Suleiman has met Russian President Dmitry Medvedev in Moscow in the first ever visit by a Lebanese head of state to Russia where he signed a memorandum on bilateral military cooperation. Medvedev, whose country is keen to preserve influence in the Arab world that dates back to Soviet times, described the visit as a "landmark event" in relations between Moscow and Beirut. Suleiman, who in turn labeled the visit as historic, hailed Medvedev for his support of Lebanon. He said the two sides had discussed signing a long-term military cooperation agreement. "It is a framework agreement and is planned to be signed in the near future," said the head of Russia's military-technical cooperation agency, Mikhail Dmitriyev. There was no mention, however, of past promises by Russia to deliver 10 MiG-29 fighter jets as a gift for the Lebanese military. The issue of MiG-29s had been discussed by Lebanese defense minister Elias Murr and his Russian counterpart in December 2008. Under the plan, the MiG-29s would be modernized before being handed over to Lebanon and the cost of transport of the warplanes would be paid for by the Russian defense ministry. Local media had said Suleiman would be raising the possibility of the MiG fighter jets being replaced by other hardware better suited to the needs of the Lebanese army. Beirut, 26 Feb 10, 10:05

I see that the last post was a few days before the Independence day parade. Participants of this thread will be pleased to know 3 Hawker Hunters and iirc 4 Cessna 208s participated, as well as the extensive fleet of Huey choppers and the new Sikorsky's. Sad news that we may not get the MiGs after all.

The MiG-29s will not be delivered after all, rather the Lebanese Air Force will be granted Mi-24 helicopters instead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mil_Mi-24

Ah yes, I like to call it the Flying Beast.

Great helicopter.

Quoting BA (Reply 168): Ah yes, I like to call it the Flying Beast.

Suitable name. The Afghanis chose to call it Satan's Chariot in the past.  

Quoting BA (Reply 168): Great helicopter.

It will be much more effectively utilized by the Lebanese Air Force than 10 MiG-29s would have as well.