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kearney
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CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:47 pm

Is there any news on this. Such as any firm orders for the A400 or 130J's? I heard they were getting some c-17's... is this true?
 
Arniepie
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Nov 11, 2006 11:53 pm

I know they have 4 C17's on order but as for the rest I only can speculate but my money would be on the C130J.
[edit post]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:06 am

I agree. The Canadian C-130s are wearing out quickly and they need replacements now. The C-130J is their only option as the A-400M will not be available to Canada for at least 5 years.

Yes, Canada does have 4 C-17As on order, I believe the get their first airplane in the first quarter of 2007. I thought they were to send 3 crews to Altus AFB, OK in January to begin C-17 crew training with the USAF.
 
L-188
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:33 am

Their only hope for a quick replacement is going to be the J model
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
CF188A
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:28 am

Ever heard the saying "If it ain't broke don't replace/fix it?" something along those lines. Well this applies to this scenario. Our C-130s are not falling out of the sky... our C-130s are not taking off flintstone style because the power plants have eroded.... The present C-130s are fine for another "5" years, if Canada sees a larger benefit from the A300M rather than the C-130J then they will wait it out. Last time I checked Germany was still using the F4 Phantom lol and Italy just got rid of their F-104s a few years back. A plane can last forever as long as ya treat her right and take care of her. They might be old but hell they still accomplish their mission on a daily basis. I think it is possible the C-17s will replace the Polaris except for troop deployments overseas. There is not yet a firm C130J deal as Canada is trying to budget for the revamp years ahead. The CF-18s are just as old as the Herc's so , and they have been having quite a few problems lately. I personally think Canada should acquire the Eurofighter (Canada has always been fond of a modern aircraft with twin power plants) , and it would accomplish the mission it was set out to do. ... lets wait and see Smile
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
kearney
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:30 pm

Sure they can last 5 or even 10 more years but it becomes just like a classic car, spends more time in the shop then on the road, and is that what you want as the "work horse" of the fleet. To keep them safe and flying will eventualy be un-economical, i think we a running out of time! Personaly id like to see them replaced with the 130J
 
L-188
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:37 pm

Quoting CF188A (Reply 4):
The present C-130s are fine for another "5" years,

Really, because I was under the impression that four or five where on permanent groundings because of cracking wing spars.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
kearney
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:43 pm

I remember as a cadet we had the chance to fly in the hercs, every time they had something wrong with them. One time they said a bird flew into the wing so they just had to fix a dent in the wing. An hour later the officer came back and said that as they were fixing the dent and they noticed some of the wireing in the wing was in need of repair too. They need to get rid of em!
 
CF188A
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Nov 12, 2006 11:23 pm

Dont get me wrong guys ... I totally agree. However we need to be realistic. The public seems to auto assume were going into WW3 if we purchase all these new planes and they say we are no longer a peace keeping nation (so the papers were saying) The CAF / CF usually will replace in chunks. I would love to see 20 C-17S... 50 C-130Js, and 200 Euros and 50 JSFs believe me ... lol but once again , I need to be realistic. The person above who mentioned the bird/wire problems, I heard about that as well. They need to be replaced however I said in another thread, that the Armed Forces is delay, after delay, after delay. The good thing is Stephen Harper is at least DOING SOMETHING. He is just working around many other issues at the present time. Perhaps an accident relating to the fragility of these aircraft will happen soon, and all will be replaced . I could see that being the quickest reason.
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Nov 13, 2006 12:02 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 8):
Perhaps an accident relating to the fragility of these aircraft will happen soon, and all will be replaced . I could see that being the quickest reason.

That is just what you want to avoid. The CF C-130Es are just as worn out as the USAF C-130Es. Many are operating with reduced weight loads (fuel and cargo) because of restrictions placed to keep them flying as long as possible.

Even if the CF can keep them flying for another 5 years, they really need to budget and order the replacement aircraft now to avoid having to lease airlift capability when you need it. Ordering the C-130J, or even the C-130J-30 is the only real option now. The A-400M could be an option, but I doubt they can get the production slots the CF needs.

The problem is not the fault of the CF, they did begin asking for the C-130E replacement aircraft in the mid 1990s. The Canadian politicians did not budget for the new airplanes.
 
F4N
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:32 am

To all:

I briefly read an article in the 11/24 edition of the WallStreet Journal that EADS was advised by the Canadian gov't that they will not required to submit a
proposal for the transport a/c replacement. It would appear then that L-M will be the winner of this contract. Sorry that I didn't have time to examine the article more closely but if anyone has access to back issues, they may be able to provide more details.

regards,

F4N
 
474218
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Nov 27, 2006 1:11 pm

According to Reuters the Canadian government has informed EADS that they should not submit a proposal, as only the C-130J meets the Canadian requirements. They also say a contract will be signed next year (2007) with the first aircraft delivered three years later (2010). The $4.9M contract will provide 17 C-130J's ($3.2M) and 20 years of support services ($1.7M).
 
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Devilfish
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Wed Dec 27, 2006 11:35 am

Quoting 474218 (Reply 11):
The $4.9M contract will provide 17 C-130J's ($3.2M) and 20 years of support services ($1.7M).

The sole-source deal will still have to be negotiated, though I doubt it would be that cheap.....  Smile

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles...-mollifies-rejection-from-jca.html

Quote:
"The department will now issue a sole-source request for proposals (RFP) to Lockheed, negotiate the deal and seek government approval before signing a contract, which is planned for the fourth quarter of next year. Canada wants the first C-130J delivered within 36 months of contract award, and the last within 60 months."
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Oroka
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:19 am

Quoting CF188A (Reply 8):
The good thing is Stephen Harper is at least DOING SOMETHING.

IMO that is his only redeeming quality. If Quebec seperates eventually, they will proably get a few of those nice new Hercs  crazy 


what an idiot
 
jutes85
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Fri Dec 29, 2006 5:29 am

Quoting Oroka (Reply 13):
IMO that is his only redeeming quality. If Quebec seperates eventually, they will proably get a few of those nice new Hercs

If Quebec seperates, perhaps we can get rid of our 18's sooner.
nothing
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:16 am

If Quebec seperates from the rest of Canada, they can stand in that long line for the A-400M.

If Quebec saseeds, will that mean Canada will then have only one official language?

For the CF, the C-130J really is the only choice.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:49 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 15):
If Quebec seperates from the rest of Canada, they can stand in that long line for the A-400M.

If Quebec saseeds, will that mean Canada will then have only one official language?

For the CF, the C-130J really is the only choice.

If Quebec ever really did try to secede from Canada, it would be such a mess
that redistribution of the CF assets would be a very small part of the process. Most likely, the world would see that Canadians can be just as unreasonable as other nations when faced with potential break-up.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Dec 31, 2006 7:21 am

Was just looking at this:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-c130m.htm

Wondering if a re-tooled, zero-timed CC-130E/H is the best answer
to the CF's tac lift requirements. Likely could have more a/c available
under this plan, if it's feasible.

Anyone know anything about Snow Aviation ?
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Jan 06, 2007 6:04 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 17):
Was just looking at this:

http://www.sfu.ca/casr/bg-airlift-c130m.htm

Wondering if a re-tooled, zero-timed CC-130E/H is the best answer
to the CF's tac lift requirements. Likely could have more a/c available
under this plan, if it's feasible.

Anyone know anything about Snow Aviation ?

I have never heard of Snow, so I don't know anything about them. But, if they put this proposal in front of the CF, and it was rejected in favor of the C-130J, well that says Canada didn't have confidence in the program. Or there was a political reason for not going with the Snow proposal and buying from LM, instead.
 
Oroka
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sat Jan 06, 2007 4:10 pm

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 16):
Canadians can be just as unreasonable as other nations when faced with potential break-up.

Alot of people dont know that Chretien had no intention of of allowing Quebec to seperate even if they won the 90s vote. The CAF was actually on alert in the event the Federal government had to seize control back from the separatists.

As compensation, Quebec can have Larcoss as thier national sport.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Sun Jan 07, 2007 10:46 pm

If Quebec does secede, is there any way we can define "Quebec" to include the City of Quebec, only?

In any event, more seriously, I support the concept that U.S. and Canadian forces should be as interoperable as possible. Since I do not foresee American purchases of the A400, I think that both countries would be best served if Canada purchased a mix of the C-17 and the C-130J.

[Edited 2007-01-07 14:49:25]
What's fair is fair.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 1:17 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 20):
In any event, more seriously, I support the concept that U.S. and Canadian forces should be as interoperable as possible. Since I do not foresee American purchases of the A400, I think that both countries would be best served if Canada purchased a mix of the C-17 and the C-130J.

Let's make that : NATO forces, but I guess the A400 has a life of its' own now.

I'm still not 100% sold on the C-17 -- not as an airlifter, it's a great one -- but as the right a/c for Canada. No C-17s means a whole lot more C-130Js, which is what the Chief of Defense Staff wanted. But the Minister (former AF general) overruled him.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 4:52 am

There surely is "wiggle room" on the exact nature of the mix needed. I would be interested looking at the merits of various combinations of the two models (C-17 and C-130J).
What's fair is fair.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:03 am

Quoting AerospaceFan (Reply 20):
If Quebec does secede, is there any way we can define "Quebec" to include the City of Quebec, only?

Somewhat off topic, but, if Quebec did secede there is a real question about who 'owns' the Ungava district of Quebec. This is about 2/3 of the area and includes much of the northern hydro-electric development.

Then again, Quebec could throttle access to the St Lawrence Seaway to Canadian-flagged or -destined ships.

Perhaps better discussed in Non-Av.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
AerospaceFan
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 5:12 am

Isn't the St. Lawrence River partly American? I think that if the United States had to choose sides, it would choose TROC (The Rest of Canada) over the pretensions of a secessionist Quebec. Indeed, on diplomatic terms, perhaps the U.S. is obligated to respect any Canadian, versus any secessionist provincial, claim. If so, Quebec wouldn't be able to blockade the St. Lawrence without incurring the wrath of the world's only superpower.

In an attempt to impose its will against New York, let alone the entire United States, Quebec would need all the A400's it could purchase from Europe, and it still wouldn't succeed. Does Quebec have enough manpower to withstand even the New York National Guard? I doubt it.

This is only my opinion.

Care to join me in the Non-Av Forum on this topic?

[Edited 2007-01-07 21:17:52]
What's fair is fair.
 
boeingfixer
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 6:26 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9):
The CF C-130Es are just as worn out as the USAF C-130Es.

Actually the CAF CC-130E's are way more worn out than the USAF C-130E's. This is mainly due to high utilization of a very small fleet in comparison. The early CAF E models are all in the 40,000+ hr range and I believe the USAF E's are significantly short of that mark. The only way that the CAF E's have been able to get to those hours is due to the fact the fleet had a FIP(Fuselage Improvement Program) done in the early eighties that replaced dozens of fatigue critical fittings and components on the fuselage and also had their centre and outer wings replaced. The centre wings are over-due for replacement due to fatigue cracking of the spar webs and wing skins.

I worked on the CC-130(NWI, CAE, SPAR) for 10 years with jobs such as sheet metal tech, mechanic/inspector and crew chief on the avionics update program. All I can say, is that during the PSI(Progressive Structural Inspection)(similar to the USAF PDM), the time in shop was getting increasingly longer due to the fatigue related structural issues. You can only replace so many sloping longerons, spar webs, vertical beams, belly skins, floor beams etc.... before the cost of maintaining an aging fleet gets prohibitive.

My feeling is that the C-130J would fit the bill over the A400. Mainly due to the existing infrastructure to maintain the CC-130 fleet. There's a lot of spares and service equipment commonality between the CC-130 fleet and the C-130J to make this a no-brainer. Also some CC-130H's(338-342) and the CC-130H-30's(343-344) will probably be able to remain in the fleet for some considerable time to come. Also the ten oldest CC-130E's are being retired along with the CC-115's when the CAF gets it's new fixed wing SAR aircraft.

Cheers,

John
Cheers, John YYC
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Mon Jan 08, 2007 7:10 am

Quoting BoeingFixer (Reply 25):
Actually the CAF CC-130E's are way more worn out than the USAF C-130E's. This is mainly due to high utilization of a very small fleet in comparison. The early CAF E models are all in the 40,000+ hr range and I believe the USAF E's are significantly short of that mark. The only way that the CAF E's have been able to get to those hours is due to the fact the fleet had a FIP(Fuselage Improvement Program) done in the early eighties that replaced dozens of fatigue critical fittings and components on the fuselage and also had their centre and outer wings replaced. The centre wings are over-due for replacement due to fatigue cracking of the spar webs and wing skins.

I worked on the CC-130(NWI, CAE, SPAR) for 10 years with jobs such as sheet metal tech, mechanic/inspector and crew chief on the avionics update program. All I can say, is that during the PSI(Progressive Structural Inspection)(similar to the USAF PDM), the time in shop was getting increasingly longer due to the fatigue related structural issues. You can only replace so many sloping longerons, spar webs, vertical beams, belly skins, floor beams etc.... before the cost of maintaining an aging fleet gets prohibitive.

My feeling is that the C-130J would fit the bill over the A400. Mainly due to the existing infrastructure to maintain the CC-130 fleet. There's a lot of spares and service equipment commonality between the CC-130 fleet and the C-130J to make this a no-brainer. Also some CC-130H's(338-342) and the CC-130H-30's(343-344) will probably be able to remain in the fleet for some considerable time to come. Also the ten oldest CC-130E's are being retired along with the CC-115's when the CAF gets it's new fixed wing SAR aircraft.

All  checkmark 

As I indicated elsewhere, LockMart are coming to the CF to find out *how the hell do you keep these old things flying ?* It should be the other way 'round OR the CF gets new kit. Even though I'm a Liberal, I vote new kit. Every now and then you have to pay your dues.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
HanginOut
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Tue Jan 09, 2007 10:08 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 21):
No C-17s means a whole lot more C-130Js, which is what the Chief of Defense Staff wanted. But the Minister (former AF general) overruled him.

Actually, Minister O'Connor is a former armour officer (whereas the current CDS is an infantry officer).

Also, while you would have able to purchase a lot more C-130Js, the problem is that the CF has a massive shortage of pilots. Purchasing C-17s increases your lift capability, while not exacerbating the problem of not enough pilots to fly the planes the CF has. There was an interesting article in the papers on the weekend of how the Government fast tracked Canadian citizenship for a former Danish or Dutch (I can't remember which country) F-16 pilot who stayed in Canada after an exchange program so that he could be an F-18 pilot for us.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Tue Jan 09, 2007 11:01 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 27):
Actually, Minister O'Connor is a former armour officer

Really ? Hmmm...oh well, not the 1st time I'm wrong.

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 27):
Also, while you would have able to purchase a lot more C-130Js, the problem is that the CF has a massive shortage of pilots. Purchasing C-17s increases your lift capability, while not exacerbating the problem of not enough pilots to fly the planes the CF has.

No argument there, I realize there is a shortage and more a/c to fly exacerbates the problem. Hopefully this can be resolved as part of the overall plan to grow the force size to 75-80,000 or so. But that will take time.

I'm just not sure that acquiring C-17s is the correct move in the longer run. These a/c are going to be around 30-40 years, no doubt. Basically the quesiton goes back to "Do we see ourselves as a world player or a regional player?". I say regional is the realistic role and for that we don't really need the C-17 but more C-130Js & C-27Js might be correct. Assuming we can get the people to fly them.

This also extends to equipment for the land & naval forces. The submarines we acquired ? Junk, basically, lots & lots of problems. The nukes I was working on 1986-1990 were a much better idea.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
HanginOut
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 11, 2007 5:45 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 28):
I'm just not sure that acquiring C-17s is the correct move in the longer run. These a/c are going to be around 30-40 years, no doubt. Basically the quesiton goes back to "Do we see ourselves as a world player or a regional player?". I say regional is the realistic role and for that we don't really need the C-17 but more C-130Js & C-27Js might be correct. Assuming we can get the people to fly them.

There is one aspect of acquiring the C-17s that most people forget about and that is the ability to participate in international operations and look as if we are playing an important role. The C-17s will be an asset that allies, including the US, will be asking to use, allowing us to participate in missions we may not want to otherwise be involved in. So instead of having boots on the ground, Canada can say sorry we don't have the troops, but we can help lift others in.
 
connies4ever
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 11, 2007 8:55 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 29):
and look as if we are playing an important role

But you don't commit about $3.5B just to look good.

I think the principal question to ask is what role do we realistically see ourselves performing over the next 20-40 years, given financial and human resources available or projected to be available, then decide what equipment is the best for that role. If that means the C-17, then so be it.

And the same for the land & sea forces.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
CF188A
Posts: 680
Joined: Sun May 07, 2006 12:27 am

RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 11, 2007 9:27 am

Quoting HanginOut (Reply 27):
Also, while you would have able to purchase a lot more C-130Js, the problem is that the CF has a massive shortage of pilots. Purchasing C-17s increases your lift capability, while not exacerbating the problem of not enough pilots to fly the planes the CF has. There was an interesting article in the papers on the weekend of how the Government fast tracked Canadian citizenship for a former Danish or Dutch (I can't remember which country) F-16 pilot who stayed in Canada after an exchange program so that he could be an F-18 pilot for us.

yup ... here is the article


http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?t=26087
Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die tomorrow~ RIP ... LJFM
 
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Devilfish
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:04 pm

Update:

Canada has signed the order for C-130Js.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ntract-for-17-lockheed-martin.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
BladeLWS
Posts: 358
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2005 12:41 pm

RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:20 am



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 32):
Update:

Canada has signed the order for C-130Js.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles....html

Good choice!
 
columba
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:12 am

Airbus made a big mistake by taking the Canadian engine and take Canada has a partner in the A400 programm.
It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
 
Cruiser
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RE: CDN Forces C-130 Replacement

Thu Jan 17, 2008 1:50 pm



Quoting Columba (Reply 34):
Airbus made a big mistake by taking the Canadian engine and take Canada has a partner in the A400 programm.

Almost everyone knew that the Hercs were going to be replaced with more Hercs. Airbus was dreaming if they thought that the A400 would have been ready for when the Canadian Military needed the new birds, especially as LM is already going to the Canadian Military to find out how they are managing to keep the frames in the air with so many hours on them.
Leahy on Per Seat Costs: "Have you seen the B-2 fly-by at almost US$1bn a copy? It has only 2 seats!"

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