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747400sp
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Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:34 pm

I was told by a buddy that a Super Hornet can take off a carrier fight deck with out cats, is this true? I herd the only reason they do not do this is because of the high amout of fuel the jet would burn.

PS: I herd only Super Hornets and Tomcats had the power to not use cats. But I know they still use cats for take off.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:04 pm

Well I am no Navy squid... see I when I was looking to join the military and the Navy told me I had to be good on my knees to join, I knew I wasn't cut out for the Navy. On the other hand, when USNavyseallt82 heard this... he KNEW he found his home!  Wink

But like I said - I am not a naval aviator, but the idea that a F-18 could take off from the ship unassisted sounds totally bogus. Even if it went from ass to nose (or as those silly squid say, stern to bow  Yeah sure ) that's only 1000ft for your take off!!!

Hell, a thousand feet is even tight for most general aviation birds.

It might be true... but I highly doubt it.

BTW: My Black Hawk doesn't need no stinkin' runway/deck length to take off.  Wink

-UH60
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N328KF
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:11 pm

As for the F-14, it would probably depend upon which variant. The F-14A had the anemic TF30s, and so I would discount those immediately. If anything has a chance, it would be the F110-equipped models, but I can't state that with authority.

[Edited 2006-12-30 06:28:44]
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2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:24 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
the idea that a F-18 could take off from the ship unassisted sounds totally bogus. Even if it went from ass to nose (or as those silly squid say, stern to bow Yeah sure ) that's only 1000ft for your take off!!!

With two infrared missiles at sea level, the F-18's takeoff distance is listed as 1700 feet, according to Dassault.

Jane's lists the F-14's minimum takeoff distance as 1300 feet.

Turn the boat into the wind, go to flank speed, and I bet you could get either one off the deck with room to spare.  yes 


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N328KF
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:27 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 3):
Jane's lists the F-14's minimum takeoff distance as 1300 feet.

Which engine is that using? The TF30-equipped F-14s have 41,800 lbf of thrust, while the F110 units have 46,200 lbf.

[Edited 2006-12-30 06:28:34]
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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:28 pm

The US Navy's website (www,SailorsWearPanties.com), states:

F-14:

Min takeoff distance with min takeoff weight: 1,305 feet

F-18E/F:

Min takeoff distance with min takeoff weight: 1,550 feet

USS Ronald Reagan:

Length, overall: 1,092 feet



So even if you cleared the deck from ass to nose... you'd still be short a few hundred feet. However, I suppose if you had the ship sailing under full steam at 30kts... perhaps the additional speed might be enough? I dunno.  Confused

But seriously.... why the f*ck would you even want to try this?

-UH60
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2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:37 pm




Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
Which engine is that using?

Both of 'em!

Seriously, though, my 1981-1982 edition Jane's lists that distance using the TF30s.

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
However, I suppose if you had the ship sailing under full steam at 30kts... perhaps the additional speed might be enough?

It's my understanding the more modern nuclear boats can go much much faster than 30kts...

Even if we're conservative, and say 40kts, it wouldn't be difficult to find 20kt headwinds. There's 60kts over the wings before you even release the brakes...

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
But seriously.... why the f*ck would you even want to try this?

Ah, that's the beauty of the A.net forums...it doesn't matter! Often times, the silliest and/or most obscure questions produce the most interesting discussions.  biggrin 


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2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 2:53 pm




Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

747400sp, after having done a little research, the answer to your question is absolutely, positively, YES!

...From http://www.hazegray.org/navhist/carriers/odd/index4.htm:




A USMC KC-130F Hercules aboard USS Forrestal (CVA 59) in October 1963. This aircraft conducted several landings and takeoffs, without the use of arresting wires, catapults or RATO/JATO, to test the possibility of using C-130s as Carried Onboard Delivery (COD) aircraft. The trials were successful, but the C-130 could not be accommodated in a carrier's hangar and could not land without disrupting flight operations, so the concept was abandoned.


Here's a video of the landing...I couldn't find one of the takeoff:

http://www.airspacemag.com/multimedia/video/Hercules.php




So, if a C-130...with a listed takeoff distance of 3580 feet...can take off from a carrier deck, an F-14 or F-18 certainly could, as well.  Smile


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studedave
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:49 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
see I when I was looking to join the military and the Navy told me I had to be good on my knees to join, I knew I wasn't cut out for the Navy.

 redflag   talktothehand  Dude- get some help- you make comments like this way too much, and I'm getting tired of hearing it- NOT ALL SAILORS ARE ON SUBS!!!  box   banghead 

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Even if we're conservative, and say 40kts,

I've done 'speed runs' on two different Carriers- one of them was an 'oiler'- and let's just say~ that's a VERY conservative speed...  eyepopping   hyper 
I can't say much more then that otherwise I'd have to kill you~ sorry.


What your buddy might have been thinking is that those birds could leave the ship (off the cats) with no afterburner... just a thought.  scratchchin 
All the above speculation is well and good, but one other thing to think about is that while you may be able to get wind over the deck, and have a long enough deck to get airborne, but where are the rest of the birds while all this is going on?  confused  It gets really crowded up there when there are 85+ birds up there- you'd never have all that room to begin with!!! The hanger isn't big enough to hold them all...
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Avsfan
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 4:58 pm

To end this discusion, the next time an F-18E/F comes to my airport, I will ask them this question. I am pretty sure that the pilot will say that an F-18E/F is unable to takeoff from a carrier without the use of cats. I know for a fact that they will say that the F-18E/F can takeoff from a carrier using the cats but without AB.
"Oh I have slipped the surly bonds of Earth...Put out my hand and touched the face of God"
 
cancidas
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 6:06 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
BTW: My Black Hawk doesn't need no stinkin' runway/deck length to take off.

amen to that!  Big grin Big grin
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 10:46 pm




Quoting Avsfan (Reply 9):
I am pretty sure that the pilot will say that an F-18E/F is unable to takeoff from a carrier without the use of cats.

On what do you base this theory?

If published takeoff distances are as follows:

C-130 - 3580'
F/A-18 - 1550'

....and the C-130 has actually done it, than why shouldn't the F/A-18 also be able to?


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LMP737
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Dec 30, 2006 11:19 pm

Quoting N328KF (Reply 4):
Which engine is that using? The TF30-equipped F-14s have 41,800 lbf of thrust, while the F110 units have 46,200 lbf.

[Edited 2006-12-30 06:28:34]

Total thrust in full burner for two F110-400 is around 56,000 pounds.
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ftrguy
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 1:51 am

Being a former Hornet pilot, I will say no way. If your talking about the same distance of the cat stroke (approx 300ft) there's no way on earth a Hornet could get airborne in that distance. If you used the whole length of the flight deck (around 1000ft), the book says that if you have a high enough density ratio, a light aircraft, and enough wind, it�s possible. However, there's no way on earth the Navy would ever attempt that.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 11):
If published takeoff distances are as follows:

C-130 - 3580'
F/A-18 - 1550'

....and the C-130 has actually done it, than why shouldn't the F/A-18 also be able to?


Well, because the C-130 is an entirely different aircraft and has completely different lift characteristics than the Hornet. A straight-winged/propeller aircraft has much more lift capability at lower speeds and altitude. The thrust to weight ratio is what gives the Hornet the lower distance, but the actual takeoff speed is much higher. If the C-130 had the same thrust to weight ratio, the distance would be much lower than the Hornet.
 
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:09 am

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 13):
Being a former Hornet pilot, I will say no way.

There you have it folks... straight from someone who knows what he's talking about.

Thanks Ftrguy!

-UH60
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2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:16 am




Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 13):
If you used the whole length of the flight deck (around 1000ft), the book says that if you have a high enough density ratio, a light aircraft, and enough wind, it's possible.

Yep....straight from someone who knows what he's talking about!  biggrin 


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UH60FtRucker
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:26 am

Quoting Ftrguy (Reply 13):
it's possible.



Quoting 2H4 (Reply 15):
Yep....straight from someone who knows what he's talking about!

lol... well christ, 2H4, ANYTHING is possible!

If you sailed the ship into a 140kt wind, you could take off using barely any deck space!

(**on the computer in the On-Call Room, we have FS2004 loaded on there and we hovered a B747 by adding a 175kt head wind!** Big grin )

-UH60
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2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 2:30 am




Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 16):
lol... well christ, 2H4, ANYTHING is possible!

Heh heh.....I spend most of my time over in Tech/Ops, so I guess it's that Tech/Ops mentality that keeps me analyzing the whole thing.  Smile

I certainly don't mean to second guess you at all, Ftrguy, but would it be unreasonable to conclude that a 60-knot headwind would reduce a light Hornet's takeoff distance by at least 30%?


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ftrguy
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:15 am

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 17):
I certainly don't mean to second guess you at all, Ftrguy, but would it be unreasonable to conclude that a 60-knot headwind would reduce a light Hornet's takeoff distance by at least 30%?


Well, the book only goes to 40kts and its not really a linear scale. Its really a function of density ratio and takeoff weight. With a density ratio of 1.0 and a light takeoff weight, a 40 kt headwind only reduces takeoff distance by 600 ft or so. At max takeoff weight it helps by approx 1600 ft.
 
2H4
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:29 am



Thanks, Ftrguy. Your knowledge (and patience) is much appreciated!


2H4


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Acheron
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:09 am

If a Flanker can take off without a cat, the Hornet probably can do so, too. Admitedly, the Flanker is all wings.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:14 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 20):
If a Flanker can take off without a cat, the Hornet probably can do so, too. Admitedly, the Flanker is all wings.

The Flanker-D and Fulcrum-D accomplish this via ski jump.
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STT757
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 11:50 am

I would assume that when the Marines acquire their F-35Bs that they will deploy on Carriers and not use the Cats or traps.
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AFHokie
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:17 pm

A-7's are the only aircraft that I know of that could take off without the cat. Pics of carriers during the time the A-7 was in use by the USN you can see a long arrow running the length of the deck, that was for the A-7's to use for cat free takeoffs.

Despite the delusions of some of the people on this forum, the tomcat is not Ditka; it cannot win 147-3 vs Mt. St. Helens in a football game...

Given enough what ifs like those mentioned previously, you could get a lawnmower to take off without a cat.
 
AAR90
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 12:37 pm

Given the right set of circumstances; no load, minimum fuel, high wind over deck, it is possible. Anything is possible. The only recent naval aircraft I know of that is certified for a deck-launch is E-2C Hawkeye --possibly C-2R, but I don't recall what that NATOPS manual said on the subject.
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lehpron
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 3:50 pm

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 5):
So even if you cleared the deck from ass to nose... you'd still be short a few hundred feet.

...for a straight level takeoff I suppose, yes. Say the plane is short a dozen knots when it goes past the edge of the deck, the plane will then pitch up to maintain its height above the water. If it has more thrust that drag (as a result of higher AoA), it should be able to climb. If equal, it is going to maintain that height until it has burned off enough fuel to climb and go around to land.

Or, if none of the above, splash down, no pun intended.
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Stealthz
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sun Dec 31, 2006 5:24 pm

Australian A-4G could.
Well not successfully!!
In 1973 due to cat failure a Skyhawk crashed ahead of the HMAS Melbourne near Singapore the pilot retained his composure and watched the ship pass overhead then freed himself from the cockpit and was picked up by the plane guard helo astern of the carrier.
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 12:08 am

Quoting StudeDave (Reply 8):
Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
see I when I was looking to join the military and the Navy told me I had to be good on my knees to join, I knew I wasn't cut out for the Navy.

Dude- get some help- you make comments like this way too much, and I'm getting tired of hearing it- NOT ALL SAILORS ARE ON SUBS!!!

Coulda fooled me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMKjDYKs994
A little less Hooah, and a little more Dooah.
 
studedave
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 3:05 am

The key words I saw at the begining of this video were "Naval Acadamy"~ future officers~  eyepopping 
But something tells me to doubt very much that it was filmed there!!!

If these are really supposed to be our NAVY's future leaders~ Thank God I retire in less then two years!!!  ashamed   covereyes 
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connies4ever
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Mon Jan 01, 2007 6:28 am

Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I was told by a buddy that a Super Hornet can take off a carrier fight deck with out cats, is this true? I herd the only reason they do not do this is because of the high amout of fuel the jet would burn.

Maybe, but why would you even want to try when you have cats ?

Related item: the new CVN-21 class of flattops are supposed to be equipped with electromagnetic assisted launch systems (EMALS). How will these be tested and validated ? Anyone have any info on this ?
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STT757
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:23 am

Quoting Connies4ever (Reply 29):
Related item: the new CVN-21 class of flattops are supposed to be equipped with electromagnetic assisted launch systems (EMALS). How will these be tested and validated ? Anyone have any info on this ?

These are being developed near me at Lakehurst Naval Air Engineering Station, New Jersey. The money has been allocated to build the first system, not sure if they have started construction yet. Lakehurst has a 12,000 ft test runway with both catapults and landing wires, they develop the technology for the fleet.

http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/nlweb/
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connies4ever
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 5:35 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
These are being developed near me at Lakehurst Naval Air Engineering Station, New Jersey.

Checked the link. Thank you ! Very interesting work being done there.
Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
 
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N328KF
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:35 am

Quoting STT757 (Reply 30):
These are being developed near me at Lakehurst Naval Air Engineering Station, New Jersey.

Isn't Lakehurst where they developed the cats for Charles de Gaulle, as well? Are the new Anglo-French carriers going to have magnetic cats?
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STT757
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 10:48 am

Quoting N328KF (Reply 32):
Isn't Lakehurst where they developed the cats for Charles de Gaulle, as well?

Yup, check out their video you will see some French Aircraft launching of the cats. As well as a brief description of EMALS.

Navy Lakehurst designs and builds most of the technology for the fleet whether EMALS or the trap wires.

http://www.lakehurst.navy.mil/nlweb/...avy_Lakehurst-broadband-medium.asx
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Mir
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 12:07 pm

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 6):
Ah, that's the beauty of the A.net forums...it doesn't matter! Often times, the silliest and/or most obscure questions produce the most interesting discussions.

So what if the deck was a big treadmill?  duck 

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deskflier
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Tue Jan 02, 2007 2:46 pm

This thread sprang an old mindteaser to life with me. When I was just a plane crazy teenager, I used to wonder if a SAAB 37 Viggen could be flown off a carrier. On one hand the 37 has no attachment points for cats, but on the other hand its landing gears are beefy enough for no-flare landings and the RSwAF regularly trained for operation from 500-m (1640-ft) road bases. The AJ37 has a T/W-ratio of 0.72 (with two anti-ship missiles), and an enormous canard plane with barn-door flaps to help it achieve this. The Hornet on the other side has a conventional aft-tail layout (bigger flaps still) and a T/W-ratio better than 1.0 if you don´t use maximum bomb load.
Comparison of the "airfields" is to the carriers advantage. Okay, it is only 1000ft, but there is very little disturbance of airflow and it can move at way, WAY, more than 30kts. The typical swedish road base usually has a 60ft tall spruce or pine forest growing at a distance from the runway that barely allows the wingtips to clear. And it can´t be realigned if the wind changes direction.
So there is no reason why a carrier - in a battle situation, having lost a substantial part of its air wing - wouldn´t be able to launch its last fighters even with both cats inoperable. However, it is a last ditch measure in a situation I never would want ANY democracy to find itself in, even if the wrong guys won the latest election.
Now for the official 3580-ft TO-run of the C-130, its a figure including civilian safety margins, the civilian freighter version of the Hercules has the same field performance. Think again, the An-12 "Cub" has an official TO-run of less than 2500ft, according to several issues of Jane´s All the Worlds Aircraft from the late ´60s and early ´70s. Is there anyone out there who believes the C-130 to be less of a STOL-plane than the An-12? Same power, and the C-130 has a much lower wing loading.
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DeltaGuy
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 1:15 am

Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 1):
BTW: My Black Hawk doesn't need no stinkin' runway/deck length to take off.

And it doesn't give you any time for a major airline  Wink

Quoting AFHokie (Reply 23):
A-7's are the only aircraft that I know of that could take off without the cat. Pics of carriers during the time the A-7 was in use by the USN you can see a long arrow running the length of the deck, that was for the A-7's to use for cat free takeoffs.

I remember those arrows. My dad's a former A-7 pilot, he doesn't remember that though. Then again, he was there in the twilight of that jet's career. There'd have to be almost no jets on the deck for that to happen.

That arrow was in fact painted on the Carl Vinson, for the 50th anniversary of Pearl Harbor- they flew a B-25 and a bunch of other pistons off of the boat in San Fran.

DeltaGuy
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AAR90
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 10:23 am

Quoting DeltaGuy (Reply 36):
I remember those arrows. My dad's a former A-7 pilot, he doesn't remember that though. Then again, he was there in the twilight of that jet's career. There'd have to be almost no jets on the deck for that to happen.

Sorry, but the "arrow" was for the free-deck launch of prop planes. A-1, S-2, E-1, C-1, and (only if absolutely necessary) E-2. No A-7 ever performed a free-deck launch... even in testing.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Can A Super Hornet Takeoff A F/D With Out Cats?

Sat Jan 06, 2007 11:45 am

Quoting AAR90 (Reply 37):
Sorry, but the "arrow" was for the free-deck launch of prop planes.

That's what I thought too. The A-7 still required it's fair share of runway length, especially loaded to the gills like they were. They also took up most of the runway stopping too.

Woulda liked to have seen a Spad go racing down the deck though  Sad

DeltaGuy
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Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos