A very recent testimony to the greatest piston engine of all time is the on going saga of "Operation Bolero II" ...the second attempt (first attempt was in WWII) to fly the absolutely priceless P38 Glacier Girl from USA to England for the Flying Legends Airshow. The P38 restored from the remains of one of six P38's dug from beneath 268 feet of the Greenland Ice Cap has missed the Flying Legends Airshow and remains stuck in Woodward's hangar in Goose Bay, Newfoundland, Canada and waiting for two replacement Allison engines.
However, her playmate the P51 Mustang "Miss Velma" which had planned to make the crossing of the North Atlantic as Glacier Girl´s wingman was able to continue during the last few days of June and fly all the way to Duxford in England via Narsarsuaq (BGBW) in Greenland, Reykjavik (BIRK) in Iceland, Wick (EGPC) in Scotland. ...You have to figure that both aircraft would have been painstakingly prepared for the risky crossing of the North Atlantic and my understanding is that those two Allison engines in the P38 and that are being swapped out have only 150hours on them.
Photo is of P51 "Miss Velma" flying in front of the spectacular cathedral in Reykjavik, Iceland on the 30th June 2007.

View Large View Medium

Photo © David Alfred Eliasson - Reykjavik Aviation Photography

"The Merlin is still Magic"

A fellow would have to think that something bad was done to those Allisons to hang them up in Goose Bay.

People just don't know how to manage the care and feeding of big piston engines any more. The V1710 is a thing of beauty and you haven't heard one until you hear a P40 with the throttle all the way forward.

When I was working in Michigan the boss man owned a Grumman F7F Tiger Cat and the engines were sent to a place in Washington State for overhaul, instead of just going ahead and putting CB16s on it. They started making metal and running rough-which for an R2800 is saying something. The overhaul facility had boogered up the dynamic counterweights and the engines were shaking themselves to bits.

I think the Merlin got its reputation from its installation on the P-51 Mustang, which turned that plane into the best piston-engined fighter of World War II. The Merlin-powered Spitfires topped out at just under 410 mph, while the Griffon-engined Spitfires could fly as fast as 448 mph.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 2): I think the Merlin got its reputation from its installation on the P-51 Mustang

That may be the case in the USA; fortunately however for the UK (and probably for the world) the Merlin had already gained its reputation from its service in Hurrucanes and Spitfires during the Battle of Britain and the early stages of WW2.

You must remember that we had already been fighting for over 2 years before the USA decided to join in.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 2): I think the Merlin got its reputation from its installation on the P-51 Mustang,

There's no question the Mustang became a world beater once they put the Merlin in it (I'm biased -- my father did the design work on that installation). But as Bongodog points out, the engine's reputation was already well-established through other aircraft. It also powered the Lancaster and Mosquito, and was still hauling a few airliners through the skies well into the 1950s. I suspect it was the Merlin's already-established reputation that made North American decide it was the answer to the Mustang's early performance disappointments with the Allison engine -- not the other way around.

Lucky me! I never have to go as much as two months without hearing them. For most of June and most of September they are in the air around here just about all day long.

Sweetest sound to wake up to I can imagine.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 5): Sweetest sound to wake up to I can imagine.

OK -- I'll bite. What are you hearing? My only direct experience with Merlins was a flight I took as a kid on a TCA North Star. My ears are still ringing.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 6): What are you hearing?

Have you never stood on the ramp and heard a P-51 or a P-38 fly over?

I have been around the course at Reno in a P-51 and I will freely admit that they sound way better from the outside and a quarter mile away or so than from right behind or, worse, right between. But they do have a lovely note. You can keep your Ferraris. This is a symphony.

Quoting SlamClick (Reply 7): Have you never stood on the ramp and heard a P-51 or a P-38 fly over?

P-51, yes -- Spitfire, too, and a Lancaster. Lancaster take-off roll was earthshaking -- and the flypast with the spit off one wing on the Lanc and the P-51 off the other was something to see. All of this was at an Abbotsford airshow many moons ago. Looking forward to a Mosquito someday. Haven't seen a P-38 -- would love to.

I envy you the P-51 ride.

BTW -- my father was involved witrh RR jet engine development after the war, and he told funny stories about the Lancaster test bed they used for flight testing. I guess they would occassionally (not too damn often, I'm sure) shut the two inboard merlins down and fly it on the two outboard jet pods -- not sure what the point was, but.... You could hear every creak and groan of that bird, enough to make you reach for a parachute. Was a relief when they fired up the Merlins again.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3): You must remember that we had already been fighting for over 2 years before the USA decided to join in.

I think it was not so much a question of deciding to join in like a card game or something as it was a question of what was politically possible at the time for the Roosevelt administration in the face of domestic opposition to another European war.

There was, in fact, a significant American effort under way in the North Atlantic before the formal declaration of war-otherwise the Reuben James, an American destroyer- involved in convoy escort duties might not have gotten sunk by a U-boat with the loss of most of the crew. That was in October 1941. It is an interesting story and you can read about that period here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Reuben_James_(DD-245).

There were a lot of people in this country who said "Ohhhhhh, shit. Not again! Since when did we become part of Europe?" Politically speaking, the isolationists and America First types were a significant group in American politics and it's possible that a declaration of war might not have had the support it did later on.

Charles Lindbergh had immense public popularity and he was a firm isolationist-as well as being something of a naive dupe when led around by the nose in Germany. The dog and pony show laid on for him by Goering made a big impression. In addition, many powerful Americans were suspicious of British motives, among them Joe Kennedy, the ambassador to Britain.

Of course Japan changed all that.

And there's no question about it Britain and the Commonwealth held the Germans until the rest of the world woke up and smelled the gunpowder. As a matter of fact there were significant numbers of Americans who went north and joined up to serve the King-proving that blood is thicker than water.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3): You must remember that we had already been fighting for over 2 years before the USA decided to join in.

Slight mod, "before they accepted Adolf's invitation to play as a full member rather than just use their navy"?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 10): Slight mod, "before they accepted Adolf's invitation to play as a full member rather than just use their navy"?

One of the more interesting questions of Post-Dec. 7/41 is how long it would have taken for the U.S. to declare war on Germany if Hitler hadn't saved them the trouble. I bet there were lots of US politicians hoping they could limit US involvement to the Pacific War. We'll never know.

What I find interesting is that the while the Spitfire I with its Merlin III engine could fight on equal terms with the Me 109E series, the Spitfire II/V models couldn't keep up with the Me 109F and Fw 190A models even with the Merlin 45 series engines of around 1,400 bhp. It wasn't until the Spitfire VII/VIII/IX with its Merlin 60 series engines with over 1,600 bhp that the Spitfire could compete with the latest German piston-engined fighters of the period. And it was the Merlin 61 variant built by Packard that turned the Mustang into the best piston-engined fighter of World War II. Meanwhile, the truly superior Spitfire XIV with its 2,035 bhp Griffon 65 engine that could easily best any German piston-engined fighter didn't arrive until early 1944, about the same time the P-51B/C models started to enter large-scale service.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 9): There were a lot of people in this country who said "Ohhhhhh, shit. Not again! Since when did we become part of Europe?" Politically speaking, the isolationists and America First types were a significant group in American politics and it's possible that a declaration of war might not have had the support it did later on.

And a lot of this was a result of what was a bad experience in WWI. The United States tried very hard to stay out of that one and once pulled in really was only in it for certain reasons. When US help was needed French and British leaders were more than willing to go along with the idea that a just peace was the goal.

Of course as soon as the war was over it was a different tune and when WWII rolled around a lot of people in the states were pretty gun shy about cleaning up another mess.

The US would have joined the war at any point where the UK looked like they were about to lose it or as soon as the German Navy provided an excuse. The USN was slowly being extended across the Atlantic and eventually it would have been more of a full on shooting war than it already was bringing the US into the war.

I would challenge that assessment of WW1, the Western Front was a place a stalemate by 1917, Russia leaving the war was a boost for Germany, but there was one aspect, unseen by the Allies, that was slowly by surely seriously damaging Germany.
The Royal Navy blockade, since 1914, as years went on, was starting to have serious effects on the German home-front, stirrings in the populace at the increasing privations and the stalemate on the front line.
(This is why Germany started the Battle Of Jutland, at heart, it was an attempt to break the RN's ability to maintain this blockade, while Germany had the fewer losses in the only great WW1 naval battle, they did not succeed in lessening the blockade so was a strategic loss).

The attempt to do the same to the UK by the U-Boats is more well known, but the RN blockade was the one which had the real effect.
Of course, sinking the Lusitania by a U-Boat, was a big factor in the US joining WW1.
The problem for Germany, with US WW1 entry, was about the potential, in size, of manpower, industry, certainly the US Army was, understandably, totally unprepared for WW1. In fact, there was a reversal to WW2, where a lot of it's equipment as the army ramped up for war, was French and British supplied.

But the USMC acquitted themselves well in their first action, but the real killer for Germany, was the failure of their great 1918 offensive to break the stalemate once and for all, before very large numbers of equipped US troops arrived, from a nation with none of the acute war weariness and huge losses of Britain and France.
That failure, a last throw of the dice, was with the worsening situation on their home front, the last straw.

Back on topic, thanks to the RAF Battle Of Britain Flight, those of us born after WW2, have heard the wonderful sound of the Merlin, with the flying Spitfires, Hurricanes, the Lancaster.

Back in 1988, familiarity with this sound allowed me an unexpected discovery.
I was on a 'road trip' up and down Florida, staying overnight in Kissimmee, I went out for an early morning walk, on a very warm and clear November morning.
Along the way, I thought I heard a familiar sound, a Merlin engine?
Crossing the road, going into an area of un-built on land, I first found myself amongst a bunch of B-25 Mitchells, most in various stages of disrepair, cannibalisation, I recently seen the film 'Catch 22' on TV, they were B-25's.

Some still in now faded WW2 olive green, (one still with a tally of 'bombs' denoting missions still painted on), others seemed to be post war civil executive conversions.
Having never taken LSD, this was not some kind of 'flashback'.
So I went (ran) back to our motel, told my friends, grabbed my camera and some extra film.

After exploring the B-25 graveyard, we carried on towards the apparent sound of the Merlin engine, cutting through the otherwise quiet morning.
Then we found ourselves at a small airfield, a hangar, packed with a load of WW2 aircraft, in various stages of restoration.
Fighters, training, bombers, a beautifully restored Spitfire, then the source of the sound, a fully, fabulously restored P-51, the natural metal glinting in the sun, on chocks and running it's Merlin!

We found out that they were preparing to open up a new aviation museum.

Also on this trip, we managed to get into (with permission), the USCG facility at Opa Lockar (SP?), looking over Dauphins and Falcons, but the accidental find of the museum was something else, without having seen and heard Merlins at airshows, over London on great occasions, for several years before, I'd have never found it.

Quoting GDB (Reply 14): This is why Germany started the Battle Of Jutland, at heart, it was an attempt to break the RN's ability to maintain this blockade, while Germany had the fewer losses in the only great WW1 naval battle, they did not succeed in lessening the blockade so was a strategic loss

Quite correct. And why Admiral Jellicoe was referred to as "the only man on either side who could lose the war in an afternoon". British domination of the sea prevented German re-supply, and Jutland was indeed a strategic victory for the British - although it showed up some serious complacency within the RN. Indeed it could and perhaps should have been a major tactical victory for the navy, but for Beatty's rank incompetence in signalling enabling the High Seas fleet to escape from under the guns of Jellicoe's dreadnoughts.

Even so, the inability of the High Seas fleet to break out meant that for the rest of the war they largely swung around their moorings in hrbour, and never agian made a serious attempt to break out. Their failure to do so crippled the German war machine to a far greater extent that anything that happened on land, but as is common these days, people underestimate the importance of sea power.

The arrival of American troops proved a tipping point but the war was already lost from the German perspective.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 11): I bet there were lots of US politicians hoping they could limit US involvement to the Pacific War. We'll never know.

Quite a few it seems, but once the "invitation" had been issued, the strategy soon turned to Hitler first.

Has anyone ever tried a Mustang with one of the later DB engines? If so, how did it compare. Maybe there were not many around as IIRC the Spanish used Merlins in some of their 109s.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 16): Has anyone ever tried a Mustang with one of the later DB engines?

The Germans during World War II actually modified a rebuilt Spitfire IX (built from several crashed examples) with the later-mark Daimler-Benz DB605 engine and found the modified Spitfire to easily outfly the equivalent Me 109F/G models. That tells me the P-51D Mustang fitted with the DB605D found on the Me 109K-4 would have been very fast, probably topping out at around 460 mph.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 17): The Germans during World War II actually modified a rebuilt Spitfire IX (built from several crashed examples) with the later-mark Daimler-Benz DB605 engine and found the modified Spitfire to easily outfly the equivalent Me 109F/G models. That tells me the P-51D Mustang fitted with the DB605D found on the Me 109K-4 would have been very fast, probably topping out at around 460 mph.

As the gentleman behind the pot plant in "Laugh In" would have said, veery interestink.

The DB had some advantages, but IIRC was 54 litres against 27 litres for the Merlin so presumably a bit heavier. The injection system might have been nice on the Merlin.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 4): I suspect it was the Merlin's already-established reputation that made North American decide it was the answer to the Mustang's early performance disappointments with the Allison engine -- not the other way around.

My understanding is that an RAF test pilot after trying out an early model P51 in England, suggested it would be much improved by intallation of the Merlin. And that it was his actual recommendation that resulted in the improved aircraft.

Quoting Ferrypilot (Reply 19): Quoting Arrow (Reply 4): I suspect it was the Merlin's already-established reputation that made North American decide it was the answer to the Mustang's early performance disappointments with the Allison engine -- not the other way around. My understanding is that an RAF test pilot after trying out an early model P51 in England, suggested it would be much improved by intallation of the Merlin. And that it was his actual recommendation that resulted in the improved aircraft.

Performance disappointments? Hardly.

The Allison V1710 was as good as any other engine up to 15,000 feet but it wasn't ever seriously developed as a high altitude engine. As a matter of fact it had a substantially more rugged bottom end than the Merlin and held significant development potential. However, the Merlin was already in production as well in Britain, soon to be license built by Packard, and there was no need to pursue serious development of high altitude versions of the Allison.

How good was the Allison? Ask the Japanese who came up against Chennault's P40s.

The DB 605 still cannot be touched.

http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra...e_Private_Aviation_Video-5194.html

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 22): The DB 605 still cannot be touched.

Nice movie, and a nice engine but far too many cubic inches and pounds for what it actually does. Also the MW50 was a crutch.

Where do you suppose they laid hands on a runner?

Thanks Dougloid. I believe that it is owned by the Messerschmitt Foundation;

(D-FMBB) This Aircraft is restored and owned by the Messerschmitt Foundation of Manching, Germany. The Video is a footage composition of three flights.


I'll agree to disagree with you as to performance to weight, though the DB 605 rarely performed/was maintained as well as would be ideal in the war. Here's a nifty comparison (biased as it is toward the Spitfire/Merlin);

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit14v109.html

In stock form (not bumped up to 2000 hp) the 605 was over 1 hp/pound of weight, where as the Merlin hit about .95. It was/is an engineering marvel, but then again both engines are to me.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21): Performance disappointments? Hardly. The Allison V1710 was as good as any other engine up to 15,000 feet but it wasn't ever seriously developed as a high altitude engine.

But most engagements were well above 15,000 feet, and that had been the case from about the Battle of Britain on. If the Allison had that development potential, why wasn't it realized? For the fighter pilots who flew the original P-51 with the Allison, it left a lot to be desired. In fact, some of the USAAF squadrons converting to the P-51s, after a few sorties, asked for their Spitifres back (Don't have the source for that, but I can probably dig it up if necessary).

Quoting Arrow (Reply 25): Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21): Performance disappointments? Hardly. The Allison V1710 was as good as any other engine up to 15,000 feet but it wasn't ever seriously developed as a high altitude engine. But most engagements were well above 15,000 feet, and that had been the case from about the Battle of Britain on. If the Allison had that development potential, why wasn't it realized? For the fighter pilots who flew the original P-51 with the Allison, it left a lot to be desired. In fact, some of the USAAF squadrons converting to the P-51s, after a few sorties, asked for their Spitifres back (Don't have the source for that, but I can probably dig it up if necessary).

I've heard that said, but the fact is that positioning and the abilities of your airframe and gun platform are as important as being able to have a high altitude fistfight with the enemy. If you're busting tanks on the deck high altitude performance is not necessarily a sine qua non. See, what you do is conform the fight so it's on your terms and you do that by taking the initiative. Which is why Chennault's P40s would get the altitude and dive right through the formations of Japanese kicking ass as they went-would that the lessons of how to fly and fight the P40 had been learned from the AVG. Beware of the Hun in the sun and all that.

Now.....the REAL reason why what you're talking about was important was escorting high altitude bomber streams over Germany. The Forts flew at upwards of 25,000 feet and if the fight started there, then a decided advantage would be had at the start. At those altitudes, a V1710 Mustang would have been seriously winded. But again that was not due to any inherent fault in the engine design, but what the Army Air Corps told Allison it wanted the engine to do back before the war.

Quoting Baroque (Reply 18): The DB had some advantages, but IIRC was 54 litres against 27 litres for the Merlin so presumably a bit heavier. The injection system might have been nice on the Merlin.

It would have been akin to adapting the Rolls-Royce Griffon 65 to the Mustang. With 2,035 hp, the P-51D powered by the Griffon 65 engine would have topped out at nearly 460 mph. (Mind you, the P-51H went with a improved Packard Merlin engine with an output of 2,218 bhp that made the plane top out at 487 mph.)

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 21): The Allison V1710 was as good as any other engine up to 15,000 feet but it wasn't ever seriously developed as a high altitude engine. As a matter of fact it had a substantially more rugged bottom end than the Merlin and held significant development potential. However, the Merlin was already in production as well in Britain, soon to be license built by Packard, and there was no need to pursue serious development of high altitude versions of the Allison.

It is interesting to note that the F-82 Twin Mustang which served after the war through Korea went back to the V1710 engines.

So apparently the USAF thought it was a good motor too.

Also does anybody know what ever happened to that program Rouche Racing had to retro-fit new heads to the merlin engine.

Jack's a big fan of the P-51 apparently;

http://www.cebudanderson.com/flying_high.htm

I suppose this is nearly completely unrelated but here is a cool site with some nice shots of some immaculate Mustangs (rebuilt engines by Roush). I guess he has some improvements which are modular and for historical accuracy he doesn't put them in the non-racer planes;

http://midwestaero.com/articles/daddysgirl.pdf

The Packard-built Merlin engine in N20MS was rebuilt by
NASCAR racing engine guru Jack Roush in his Livonia,
Michigan workshops. Jack has rebuilt several engines
for his own Mustangs and has developed several design
improvements for which he has gained FAA approval.
This was the first customer engine overhauled by Roush,
and VadeBonCouer praised the company. “I have nothing
but good to say about the professionalism and capabilities
of Roush. I am very pleased so far. The engine currently is
doing very well. It is running incredibly dry which keeps our
wheel wells looking good! I feel the Mustang community is
going to benefit tremendously from Roush’s capabilities…”
Although Roush has come up with improvements to the V-12s
lubrication, cooling and oil systems, the only modification
used on this engine was the installation of all new pistons,
designed by Roush. One can expect Roush Racing to be a
major supplier of rebuilt Merlins in the future.

Quoting Arrow (Reply 25): In fact, some of the USAAF squadrons converting to the P-51s, after a few sorties, asked for their Spitifres back (Don't have the source for that, but I can probably dig it up if necessary).

Yes I too have read that American pilots did not want to swap their spitfire MKVIII's for P51's.

[This quote from Wikipedia] ...in the Mediterranean Theatre in italy, the Mk VIII fought with the United States Army Air Force. The 31st and 52nd Fighter Groups operated the fighter for some time until, in March 1944, they had their aircraft replaced by --- according to many 31st FG members --- the "inferior" P-51 Mustang, needed for the growing necessity of long-range escort fighters. Over 300 kills were claimed by the two fighter groups while flying spitfires.[Quote]

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 24): though the DB 605 rarely performed/was maintained as well as would be ideal in the war

Also bear in mind the Germans only supplied 92 octane for it, while the Spitfire was running much higher octane- 130 for the merlin.

According to Wikipedia, ...see below, some Spitfire IX's used up to 160 octane and check out the astounding rate of climb.

[Quote] Some LF Mk IXs were given 160 grade octane petrol to increase performance even more. These Mk IXs could climb at over 5,000 feet per minute and fly at over 20 mph faster than the F Mk IXs (Spitfire IXs with Merlin 61 engines) at low altitude.[Quote]

Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 22): The DB 605 still cannot be touched. http://www.flightlevel350.com/Aircra....html

I just took the trouble to look at the movie above and which I definitely recommend viewing. ...The first landing gives a pretty clear insight into the reputation of the Me 109 as being difficult to land and bearing in mind the guy flying it must surely have somekind of hotshot reputation as a pilot or he wouldn't be in that seat. ...And the film is of significantly higher standard than average UTUBE video's.

[Edited 2007-08-21 01:13:05]

Anyone wanting to see that film of the Me 109, ...please go back to reply 22 as I failed to copy the link correctly.

Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 3): That may be the case in the USA; fortunately however for the UK (and probably for the world) the Merlin had already gained its reputation from its service in Hurrucanes and Spitfires during the Battle of Britain and the early stages of WW2.

I think that reputation had to come from the fact that it powered just about all of the most successful aircraft in most combat aircraft categories during the war, not just the spit and hurry.....

Quoting Arrow (Reply 4): It also powered the Lancaster and Mosquito

  

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 12): It wasn't until the Spitfire VII/VIII/IX with its Merlin 60 series engines with over 1,600 bhp that the Spitfire could compete with the latest German piston-engined fighters of the period

The thing that fascinates me most about the Merlin, is that when it first went into service in the mid '30's, it was considered a complete dog, failed to make the 700 or so BHP specified, and broke down as soon as anyone looked at it.
It was within a whisker of being cancelled.
RR persevered, and the rest we all know.
An ex-RR colleague of mine told me that during the war, there was immense rivalry between the Merlin team at RR and the Griffon team, and it was only right at the end of the war that Griffon team managed to get the 35 litre Griffon to best the 27 litre Merlin as an all-round fighter engine. Good anecdote, anyway.....

Quoting Banco (Reply 15): Jutland was indeed a strategic victory for the British - although it showed up some serious complacency within the RN

Not to mention some SERIOUS deficiencies in British warship design
(which of course the battlecruisers and battleships built privately by Vickers in Barrow for overseas navies didn't share...- he says proudly   . - Gotta love the procurement executive....   )

Regards

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35): Not to mention some SERIOUS deficiencies in British warship design

Definitely in the ability to survive shell hits, but a lot of the problems at Jutland (OK, Skagerrak to our German colleagues) that was due to how the RN handled propellants, particularly in the sequencing of door openings and closings in the lifts from the magazines to the point of use.

Another problem was in the filling and composition of the shells themselves that the RN used. They sometimes didn't get the j-o-b done right when they got to where they were going. Not to mention that the Germans had thought long and hard about making their fleet damage tolerant. And they had Krupp steel.

Yet another problem was cultural. A lot of people in the RN did not subscribe to the notion that gunnery was a highly technical process that was amenable to a number of technical solutions-NIH, if you will. The Krauts had no such misconceptions.

At least, that's what I remember reading about Jutland, mostly in Massie's Castles of Steel.

Tactically it was a wash, but strategically it was a victory that kept the Imperial Fleet in harbor and out of significant action for the rest of the war.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35): An ex-RR colleague of mine told me that during the war, there was immense rivalry between the Merlin team at RR and the Griffon team, and it was only right at the end of the war that Griffon team managed to get the 35 litre Griffon to best the 27 litre Merlin as an all-round fighter engine. Good anecdote, anyway.....

That's a cool and interesting story that I haven't heard before. ...Although I believe there is plenty of evidence to suggest that the Merlin remained the more remarkable engine. ...Still holds the New York to London piston engine speed record hauling a P51. And two very tightly cowled Merlins made the DeHavilland Sea Hornet arguably the fastest piston engine fighter ever to enter service.

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 35): An ex-RR colleague of mine told me that during the war, there was immense rivalry between the Merlin team at RR and the Griffon team, and it was only right at the end of the war that Griffon team managed to get the 35 litre Griffon to best the 27 litre Merlin as an all-round fighter engine.

The original Griffons that went into the Spitfire XII was only rated at 1,735 bhp, and the Spitfire XII was designed specifically as a low-altitude fighter to counter the Fw-190's flying low-altitude intruder strikes into the UK. In early 1944, when the Griffon 65 with 2,035 bhp became available, the Spitfire XIV became a phenomenally fast fighter with a top speed of 448 mph. In fact, Spitfire XIV's were heavily used to shoot down V-1's, though of course not as much as the Hawker Tempest V.

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38): In early 1944, when the Griffon 65 with 2,035 bhp became available, the Spitfire XIV became a phenomenally fast fighter with a top speed of 448 mph. In fact, Spitfire XIV's were heavily used to shoot down V-1's, though of course not as much as the Hawker Tempest V.

Cool photo of an awesome Griffon engined MKXIV Spit leading a MKXVI. ...Spitfire XVI's were essentially MKIX airframes fitted with a Packard built Merlin instead of a Rolls Royce Merlin.

View Large View Medium

Photo © Jenny Coffey

Quoting RayChuang (Reply 38): In fact, Spitfire XIV's were heavily used to shoot down V-1's, though of course not as much as the Hawker Tempest V

...Below are the numbers of V-1 Flying Bombs shot down by fighter planes according to Wikipedia.

Hawker Tempest............. 638 shot down
Dehavilland Mosquito....... 428
Spitfire.......................... 303
Mustang......................... 232
other aircraft.................. 158

Recently re-reading Len Deighton's account of the Battle Of Britain, Fighter - highly recommended, it seems that the Luftwaffe suffered some from their really good aero engines, nearly all going to ME-109's and ME-110's, not as also intended, bombers like Do-17 and He-111 too, whose performance suffered as a result, more so when experience soon led to more guns and in the case of the He-111, armour being fitted too.
This persisted well after 1940 too.
Something that did not happen with Merlin.

Another interesting one, as we know, Packard in the US was to mass produce the Merlin, not an obvious first choice at the time perhaps.
But the original intention was for the vast industrial powerhouse of the Ford Corporation to build it, but in 1940, old Henry Ford was dead against providing any help for the British war effort, juicy big contract or not.
Why? Well the fact that he had done his own version of 'Mein Kampf' some years before, might have had a bearing on this!

Quoting GDB (Reply 41): Recently re-reading Len Deighton's account of the Battle Of Britain, Fighter - highly recommended, it seems that the Luftwaffe suffered some from their really good aero engines, nearly all going to ME-109's and ME-110's, not as also intended, bombers like Do-17 and He-111 too, whose performance suffered as a result, more so when experience soon led to more guns and in the case of the He-111, armour being fitted too. This persisted well after 1940 too. Something that did not happen with Merlin.

Refresh my memory, as I recall, the real gap between the DBs and the Merlins was yet to emerge in 1940, and the injected DBs had a neat habit of not cutting out in negative G manoeuvres. There was a difference in blower performance, but the RR blowers were not that good in 1940 - either!

Quoting Baroque (Reply 42): Refresh my memory, as I recall, the real gap between the DBs and the Merlins was yet to emerge in 1940, and the injected DBs had a neat habit of not cutting out in negative G manoeuvres. There was a difference in blower performance, but the RR blowers were not that good in 1940 - either!

DB seem to have had an insatiable appetite for "new" engine programmes during the war, whereas RR pretty well stuck to what they do best - keeping going with a sound engine, and making it better, and better, and better, ........ (much like the RB211/Trents of today).
I wonder if a lack of focus was responsible for said "gap"?

Regards

I drove 3 hours yesterday morning to reach the September Air Show at Duxford near Cambridge in England. ...Saw the P51 "Miss Velma" (below) and that I had also seen (with P38 Glacier Girl) in Goose Bay, Canada in June. Miss Velma was flown as No2 in a pair with an F86 Sabre. ...I was quite surprised and impressed that the pilot always managed to stay in nice and tight on the jet.

View Large View Medium Photo © Christophe Haentjens - Crazy Horse Aviation Photography

View Large View Medium Photo © Neil John Cotten

And there were lots of other great sounding Merlins in evidence, ...including six in The battle of Britain three ship consisting of the Lancaster, Spitfire and Hurricane. Two more Hurricanes flew as a pair, followed by the show finale when five Spitfires got airborne to round off the day.
Actually I think the sound alone has probably always help sell the Merlin. ...Nothing sounds quite like it not even the Rolls Royce Griffon.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36): Definitely in the ability to survive shell hits, but a lot of the problems at Jutland (OK, Skagerrak to our German colleagues) that was due to how the RN handled propellants, particularly in the sequencing of door openings and closings in the lifts from the magazines to the point of use.

Essentially, the failure to install proper anti-flash measures - something that the Germans learnt very early on at (I think) Dogger Bank and the British didn't.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36): Not to mention that the Germans had thought long and hard about making their fleet damage tolerant. And they had Krupp steel.

No, there was nothing wrong with the armour in British vessels. A lot of the criticism has come from people extrapolating the essential flaws of the battlecruiser design to the rest of the fleet. The level of punishment the Queen Elizabeths were capable of taking (in two wars, though they were substantially revised in the peace years) testifies to that. At Jutland itself, the German battlefleet got an absolute caning from the British super-dreadnoughts, and were on the absolute brink of annihilation on more than one occasion. That they didn't was more to do with luck and some typically abysmal signalling from Admiral Beatty. But to all intents and purposes, many German battleships were effectively removed from the war for substantial a period, unlike the British ships, despite the High Seas fleet's superior gunnery.

Quoting Dougloid (Reply 36): Tactically it was a wash, but strategically it was a victory that kept the Imperial Fleet in harbor and out of significant action for the rest of the war.

The point to remember about Jutland is that if one side intends to take the field of battle from the other, comes out to fight and is forced to turn tail for him and never come back out again, that is a complete and utter defeat. Too many people (I don't mean you, by the way!) add up the casualty list and come up with a victor - if that was the case, then Germany defeated the Soviet Union in WWII! Had the High Seas Fleet come out and met the Grand Fleet toe to toe, there was only ever going to be one outcome. The British super-dreadnoughts outclassed their German equivalents as battle platforms.

That Jutland was a complete victory for Britain is pretty much inarguable amongst naval historians, it just lacked the "Trafalgar moment" that both the navy and the public wanted. But the complete closure of the sea lanes to Germany was the single overriding reason for their eventual defeat. It was the Royal Navy's last great solo victory, not least because the U Boat campaign was an attempt to do the same to Britain, and the RN defeated that at the same time as keeping the High Seas fleet completely bottled up.

Quoting Banco (Reply 45): The level of punishment the Queen Elizabeths were capable of taking (in two wars, though they were substantially revised in the peace years) testifies to that

IIRC QE took over 120 heavy calibre hits at Jutland after her rudder jammed over (1st time of many...   ), and still sailed out relatively unscathed....
Don't think she had Merlin's though.......   

Regards

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 46):

Duh! Evening posting....
It was Warspite, not QE, wasn't it?
Same class, though..  

Regards

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 47): It was Warspite, not QE, wasn't it? Same class, though..

Yep. Hence my use of the plural in Queen Elizabeths....  

She had an extraordinary career, that one.

Quoting Banco (Reply 48): Quoting Astuteman (Reply 47): It was Warspite, not QE, wasn't it? Same class, though.. Yep. Hence my use of the plural in Queen Elizabeths.... She had an extraordinary career, that one.

No doubt the Germans had reason to recognize the silhouette of Warspite after Narvik...that would have been a German tin can skipper's worst nightmare to be caught in a dead end alley with that mutha advancing.

It's a pity that Britain did not preserve at least one of its battlewagons as a memorial to the brave men and women of the RN.

Here's some heavy metal for all fans of big bore shooting sports. I've been on the Big J and the Mighty Mo.

BB62