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N74JW
Topic Author
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Israeli Ospreys

Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:52 pm

Can't say I didn't see this one coming...

http://tinyurl.com/2o2me9

The idea makes sense, even if the V-22 is considered 'unproven'.
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PADSpot
Posts: 1637
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:17 pm

I don't want to discredit the V-22, but ...

Quote:
Israel confirms interest in Bell Boeing V-22 tiltrotor

... the Israeli military is interested in virtually everything as long as it is paid for by someone else.

Quote:
Israeli sources say the V-22 is considered the closest available replacement for the nation's Sikorsky CH-53 transport helicopters, although operations of the latter type could continue until 2025 if current upgrade plans are implemented

This is pretty much nonsense. First the V-22 has only half the payload of the CH-53, thus the closest available replacement are new-build CH-47s. Second why ask at all for a replacement now when the current aircraft will likely stay in service until 2025? Third, I don't see Israel's actual need for such a product. Israel is a rather smaller country, whose military operates in relatively confined theater. They simply cannot leverage the qualities of the V-22 as the US can do. The long range and higher speed is a nice-to-have feature for them, but not necessary. Further more the V-22's price tag should be prohibitive (as long as they don't find someone else to pay), they can get at least two CH-47 for each V-22 and would end up with nearly four times the airlift capacity.
 
AirRyan
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:15 am

I see the CH-53K being more along the lines of what the IDF needs relative to their budget, timeline, and .

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 1):
... the Israeli military is interested in virtually everything as long as it is paid for by someone else.

I think it is sort of ironic that the IAF gets brand new F-16's nicer than that of the USAF and do so on the sole budget allowance of the US taxpayer; I think Israeli's ought to join the Union, pay their taxes, and vote for their representatives if that's how things are going to work.
 
md90fan
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:28 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I see the CH-53K being more along the lines of what the IDF needs relative to their budget, timeline, and .

EH-101 would be be a perfect fit, I don't think they can get them as part of FMS, though  duck 
http://www.devanwells.blogspot.com/
 
texl1649
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:34 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):

I think it is sort of ironic that the IAF gets brand new F-16's nicer than that of the USAF and do so on the sole budget allowance of the US taxpayer; I think Israeli's ought to join the Union, pay their taxes, and vote for their representatives if that's how things are going to work.

It's rather analogous to the Russians building a nice East German Air Force during the cold war. Some expenditures make sense when you consider the practical uses of the equipment. Hello, Iran and Syria.
 
PADSpot
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:20 am

Quoting Texl1649 (Reply 4):
It's rather analogous to the Russians building a nice East German Air Force during the cold war.

First Eastern Germany actually had to pay for their equipment, mainly because they had a more direct access to western currencies. Of course the concept of money had a different meaning for east block governments as prices were not set by markets but by your ability to pay. Second, different to the US the Soviets had 400.000 soldiers stationed in Eastern Germany and a further million soldiers in the neighboring countries.
 
Curt22
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:34 pm

Quoting MD90fan (Reply 3):
EH-101 would be be a perfect fit, I don't think they can get them as part of FMS, though

How do we know what the "Perfect Fit" for anyone is??

EH-101 MIGHT be suitable and we know AirRyan's "All VTOL needs should be flown with CH-53K" mantra...but what does the IAF want...range, payload, speed?

Payload: The V-22 has VTOL capablity at 57K, and STOL at 62K (Less than the CH-53K)

Range: The SOF version of the V-22 has a 500nm unrefueled radius (More then the CH-53K 175 nm range)

Speed: Cleary the V-22 exceeds all conventional VTOL acft in speed

Israel is a pretty small country so I wouldn't think range is an issue, unless they are planning future 'field trips', but everyone wants more payload and speed.
 
N74JW
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:13 pm

We will never know exactly how much we have got in value for the intelligence US tax dollars paid. I think that is the idea behind the massive subsidies Israel receives from the US. We pay to use their intelligence service in a way our services cannot. US intelligence has the technology, Israel has the sociology and the insight into the groups of 'political interest'.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:13 pm

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 6):
unless they are planning future 'field trips'

I would bet that contingency plans regarding Iranian nuclear facilities are at the core of this. Bombs and missiles have their place but there are times when you just need to get people on the ground and the faster and sneakier you can do it, the better.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
CTR
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:31 pm

Although it is designed as a civil not a military aircraft, since the Paris Air Show foreign government interest in the BA609 has grown for both coast watching and "undefined special tasks".

Perhaps some foreign governments see the BA609 as a low cost alternative. Not to mention no special political requirements to enter the Tiltrotor club.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
AirRyan
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:20 pm

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 6):
Range: The SOF version of the V-22 has a 500nm unrefueled radius (More then the CH-53K 175 nm range)

But with KC-130's who's counting anyways?!  Smile

The AW-101 SAR claims a typical range of 750nm and a demonstrated non-stop SAR EVAL flight of 900nm.
 
cancidas
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:13 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
I think it is sort of ironic that the IAF gets brand new F-16's nicer than that of the USAF and do so on the sole budget allowance of the US taxpayer; I think Israeli's ought to join the Union, pay their taxes, and vote for their representatives if that's how things are going to work.

sounds like a good idea to me.

i don't see a need for the V-22 in the IDF fleet. the EH101 could work for them, though i see them picking up the CH-47 instead.
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
N74JW
Topic Author
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:17 pm

The IASF tends to shop American. If they go elsewhere, they will have to foot the bill.
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Flighty
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:36 pm

Quoting N74JW (Reply 7):
We will never know exactly how much we have got in value for the intelligence US tax dollars paid. I think that is the idea behind the massive subsidies Israel receives from the US. We pay to use their intelligence service in a way our services cannot. US intelligence has the technology, Israel has the sociology and the insight into the groups of 'political interest'.

That's an interesting idea. But, I would not go so far as to say it is a "fair" transaction (and neither did you).

Israel has its uses for USA's foreign policy. But, the atypical relationship they have results in all kinds of weird problems. Like a heavily armed little nation that doesn't have any regard for any humans except themselves. That is unnatural, and leads to MANY problems.

I don't blame Israel per se; any nation would do the same if it could manage. Only Israel (and Taiwan and Japan to much lesser extents) has achieved this kind of relationship with the Pentagon. And Japan and Taiwan pay for what we give them, unlike Israel. Or, that is what everybody says.
 
N74JW
Topic Author
Posts: 514
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Oct 28, 2007 6:47 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 13):
That's an interesting idea.

What else would the US get out of the relationship? The US does not even keep bases in Israel. Those in the US upper-class have significant historical and cultural links to Israel. The 'money' steers US foreign policy to support Israel.

Israel has one thing we don't, People on the ground an embedded in the MidEast intelligence arena.
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Flighty
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 2:15 am

Quoting N74JW (Reply 14):
What else would the US get out of the relationship?

Most people say we don't get anything. You are the first person I have ever heard say Israel gives us something for our money. Mostly, I think it's just a hand-out to the politically powerful Israelis, who often get treated better than Americans. Why? Because Israel is powerful and it gets what it wants.

This may sound a little conspiracy-theoryish but it's also hard to argue against.
 
Oroka
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:16 am

Israel has never really been about getting value out of thier military equiptment. They want the best, with ALL the bells and whistles. V-22 is all bells and whistles.
 
CTR
Posts: 299
Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2005 4:57 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:41 am

For 40 years Israel has provided the US an incredible opportunity to battle test their latest military hardware against the latest technology the USSR/Russia is willing to sell. The results of Israel's experiences have been relayed back to the US military and improvements incorporated in tp our weapons systems.

Few realise that Israel helped develop the conformal fuel tanks in the F-15.

It would be interesting to see how they would employ the V-22's unique abilities.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
N74JW
Topic Author
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:32 pm

Quoting CTR (Reply 17):
For 40 years Israel has provided the US an incredible opportunity to battle test their latest military hardware against the latest technology the USSR/Russia is willing to sell. The results of Israel's experiences have been relayed back to the US military and improvements incorporated in tp our weapons systems.

We have been doing our own homework too... Soviet equipment has been maintained and flown inside the US for years as well.
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Flighty
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 9:36 pm

Quoting N74jw (Reply 18):

We have been doing our own homework too... Soviet equipment has been maintained and flown inside the US for years as well.

Maybe at that large desert base we all hear about?
 
N74JW
Topic Author
Posts: 514
Joined: Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:31 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:05 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
Maybe at that large desert base we all hear about?

Something like that...

http://area51specialprojects.com/havedrill/havedoughnutcolor1.jpg
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Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:34 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 10):
ut with KC-130's who's counting anyways?!

The AW-101 SAR claims a typical range of 750nm and a demonstrated non-stop SAR EVAL flight of 900nm.

I see on the company website where Augusta claims 750 to 900 nm, with one engine shut down and five fuel tanks installed for a notional max "ferry" range of approx 830 nm...Very respectable, but wonder what payload is available with this extra fuel weight?

No matter...If the IAF wants speed AND range, the V-22 has it... Tankers are only an option in a permissive (low threat) environment...otherwise your range is limited to where tankers can operate safely...every platform's max range is limted to the amount of fuel it can carry and/or by possible threats your tankers can suppress. Even USSOCOM doesn't send its tankers into some places, thus limiting the range its helo's can fly to the amount of fuel that can carry for the round trip.
 
andrej
Posts: 1278
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Tue Oct 30, 2007 10:09 pm

Hello all,

If IAF wants to replace their CH-53, why not to replace them with CH-53Ks? They have better range, bigger payload and would be perfect replacement for older CH-53s. AFAIK USMC plan to get the 53-K and there is plan for at least 150 of them.

I wonder why US can not have at least one base in Israel, yet US have bases in Saudi Arabia, Germany and UK. (Just to mention few) I know that US and Israel have special relationship, but to me it seems that Israel is getting more from it. Unless US gets something that is not known to public.

However I have a respect for IAF and regard them as superior force in the region.

Regards,
Andrej
 
ly7e7
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:15 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:00 pm

Quoting Andrej (Reply 22):
I wonder why US can not have at least one base in Israel

Because a) they don't want to spoil their relations with the Saudis and b) they don't need to do it now - they will most probably granted access to whatever they need on a per-request basis.

Regarding the military aid to Israel - I will not touch intelligence and other values in this, but just remind you that every cent must go back into the US military industry, thus the US effectively subsidises its own industry via military aid to Israel.

As to the Ospreys - I think think that IDF can find better equipment for its needs, some already mentioned in this thread.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
N74JW
Topic Author
Posts: 514
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:52 pm

Quoting LY7E7 (Reply 23):
Regarding the military aid to Israel - I will not touch intelligence and other values in this, but just remind you that every cent must go back into the US military industry, thus the US effectively subsidises its own industry via military aid to Israel.

Well, yeah... The US is not going to subsidize an Israeli purchase of, say, Mirage 2000s, or Tornadoes. Any relations with the Saudis are purely financial, and not national or cultural. Five percent of the US petroleum industry 'truly' benefits from any Saudi relations.
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ly7e7
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:31 pm

Quoting N74JW (Reply 24):
The US is not going to subsidize an Israeli purchase of, say, Mirage 2000s, or Tornadoes.

And why should it? However , when it comes to the military aid to Egypt (which is almost a half of what Israel gets) the restrictions seem to be not that tight.

Quoting N74JW (Reply 24):
Any relations with the Saudis are purely financial, and not national or cultural. Five percent of the US petroleum industry 'truly' benefits from any Saudi relations.

I spoke about US - Saudi relations in the context of permament military presence, not military aid.
2 things are endless: ignorance and space
 
N74JW
Topic Author
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Thu Nov 01, 2007 3:57 pm

The political lobby for Israel in Washington rivals only Microsoft and the RIAA's efforts. The anti-American sentiment in Egypt weighs-in on the decision as to the level of support that country receives.

Israel: F-16A/B/C/D/I, F-15A/B/C/D/I, AH-64A/D, (R)F-4E, UH-60, CH-53, OH-6, AH-1S, E-2C, C-130

Egypt: F-16A, [US denied F-15A requests], AH-64A/D, (R)F-4E, CH-47(Agusta), Westland Commando, E-2C, SH-2, C-130

The bar is not that far off. Egypt also still has a decent amount of Soviet equipment in use. Most of the older Migs, Sukhois, Ilyushins, and Tupelovs have been retired, but numbers of Mi-8s and An-12s are still in service. The lack of approval for the F-15 probably lead the EAF to look at the Mirage 2000.
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Flighty
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:52 pm

Quoting N74JW (Reply 26):
The political lobby for Israel in Washington rivals only Microsoft and the RIAA's efforts.

I hope this is not a totally inappropriate comment but Israel hardly even needs a lobby. Newspaper editors and TV journalists are heavily Jewish, compared to the overall population of say 1% Jewish.

Then there's the US Congress. Again, just a little bigger than 1% Jewish. Say, more like 30%? Israel has political power from the INSIDE, so getting it on the outside is barely even necessary. Oh, and fundamentalist Christians are all in favor of protecting the Holy Land with any weapons necessary. That covers another 30% of congress.

So, there you have it. Who needs lobbyists when everybody is already convinced of Israel's needs -- and if they're not, the media will come get them?

Edit: the real figure for Congress is around 10%, or 50 out of 550 congress. According to a Washington Post article called "Jewish Membership in Congress at all-time high." And they don't count people like Hillary Clinton, who is known to be a die-hard Israel supporter due to her NY political "connections." Just ask her.

[Edited 2007-11-01 11:58:59]
 
PADSpot
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):

No you back up all that ZOG type-of conspiracy theories.
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:11 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
Then there's the US Congress. Again, just a little bigger than 1% Jewish. Say, more like 30%? Israel has political power from the INSIDE, so getting it on the outside is barely even necessary. Oh, and fundamentalist Christians are all in favor of protecting the Holy Land with any weapons necessary. That covers another 30% of congress

You have a point about the "Fundies", but this is nothing new...since the earliest days of the United States, the US has largely held the policy of Zionism...good, bad or otherwise.

We can all find something bad about pretty near everyone and every nation, but it is also true that when compared to other nations in the region, Israel has been a pretty good friend to the US.

V-22's (Today) aren't much of a threat of an offensive weapon so I can't see this possible buy upsetting the mythical balance of power in the region...but maybe it would make some other Arab nations want the aircraft too resulting in more sales for the makers of the acft?
 
Flighty
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Nov 04, 2007 6:28 pm

Quoting PADSpot (Reply 28):
No you back up all that ZOG type-of conspiracy theories.

Sorry, what is ZOG? Okay, I looked it up.

The simple fact is, our politicians are unanimous in supporting Israel. The question is why. I believe I have a few suggestions, but no concrete answer. One suggestion I make to you is, if a person is Jewish, he or she is inclined to favor the protection is Israel (simple idea, right?). This will clearly explain for you the votes and opinions of our Jewish legislators and editorial bosses in the media.

In turn, there are many non-Jewish legislators who support Israel for religious reasons. Finally, there are liberals who support Israel in the manner of Hillary Clinton -- because that is one of her strongest bases of political support. She cultivates this extremely carefully. There is no conspiracy theory to be found here -- only clear observations. Israel has lots and lots of political power in the USA. It is not a purely "external" force but in many ways, internal. Over 50% of our political power is purely and unconditionally in favor of Israel.

In presidential debates, the question of Israel / Palestine comes up so the American people can hear candidate opinions. Typically, the leading candidates have no choice but to be unambiguous -- they "stand with Israel" 100%. If not, they are asking for a world of trouble. All leading candidates, Republican and Democrat, will support Israel because there is no choice in this matter, realistically speaking. It is just a political reality that Israel wields a great deal of power and we must satisfy it.
 
N74JW
Topic Author
Posts: 514
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Sun Nov 04, 2007 8:04 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 30):
Republican and Democrat, will support Israel because there is no choice in this matter, realistically speaking.

There is a choice, but that choice may mean political suicide in the process. Suicide for that type of politics may be alright for many folks in Washington.
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Alessandro
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RE: Israeli Ospreys

Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:18 pm

Well the BA609 got a big backlog of already paying customers and the two flying planes only got 365 hours so far, http://www.ainonline.com/news/single...civil-tiltrotor-still-on-schedule/
I reckon anyone wanting to buy it now have to wait a fair bit.
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