Swiss RFP For Fighter By End May.

art · Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:01 pm

BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.

http://www.easybourse.com/Website/dy...hp?ISIN=NL0000235190&NewsID=375461

Devilfish · Thu Jan 17, 2008 9:56 pm

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Lockheed Martin not shortlisted? I would have thought their next generation F-16 a "natural" candidate and a good single-engine match to the Gripen.....

Maybe LM is pushing for the JSF. Or could this be more of the same, and just an "upsize" to the Super Bug?

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AirRyan · Thu Jan 17, 2008 11:22 pm

This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

Stoney · Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:01 am

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

I don't really think so. Maybe the super hornet is too much of a plane for Switzerland right now in a situation where the main role of Swiss Air Force is policing the skies and not offering a complete air defense. It's about replacing the aging fleet of F-5s which consisted of 110 planes and are now down to less than 50 planes in service. Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited, probably to about the same amount the purchase of the hornet was, meaning max 3 billion. So it's more a political question and a question which manufacturer offers the best deal for the Swiss Air Force to be able to fulfill it's role. Sometimes more planes, event though less capable, are worth more than a few machines which would be superior, but don't offer enough time on station in little numbers...

But in the end, it's only a political question which plane will be ordered and the Swiss people will have the last word if they want to approve the order.... That's the beauty of a direct political system...

Greetz
Stoney

SAS A340 · Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:17 am

Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

www.gripen.com

ebj1248650 · Fri Jan 18, 2008 3:28 pm

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well. Gripen has grown increasingly popular over the years and it wouldn't come as any surprise to see the Swiss go the Gripen route. It's a shame there's no F-20 Tigershark to offer them now.

art · Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:04 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 5):
Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 4):
Replace F-5 with F-18 seems like a overkill for sure,F-16 ore Gripen would be the natural choice.

Some info on gripens homepage.

Typhoon and Rafale would be overkill as well.

Yes, it strikes me as strange that they should want to consider anything "above" F-16/Gripen. Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)

Bengan · Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:13 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 6):
Why waste their own time doing this (as well as the manufacturers' time.)

Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

/Bengt

SAS A340 · Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:13 pm

Quoting Bengan (Reply 7):
Why not? Having more bidders at the table will push the price down.

I think that these bidders play in two categories here,first you have Typhoon,Rafale and the F-18,and the second categories would be the F-16 and the Gripen....just for the country to decide what kind of fighter the want ore need.

F27Friendship · Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:54 pm

Quoting AirRyan (Reply 2):
This deal can easily be summed in just two words: Super Hornet

HAHAHA

The're not really happy with their current hornets.

BTW, phasing out the F-5 doesn't mean they will get an equally sized plane in return. It makes a lot of sense they will get a type which will also be able to replace the F-18 later on, meaning, buying in batches.

My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen

Stoney · Fri Jan 18, 2008 11:42 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....

F27Friendship · Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:19 am

Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

SAS A340 · Sat Jan 19, 2008 11:31 am

Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
And FYI, the F-16 is no option, there won't even be a proposal with that aircraft....

Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......

art · Sat Jan 19, 2008 12:54 pm

From the easybourse article:

"The DDPS could possibly make an armament program valued at approximately CHF2.2 billion available by 2010 for the purchase of the jets and the necessary PC-21 training aircraft."

US$1=CHF1.1, so possibly a budget of about US$2 billion to replace the F-5's.

From what I have read on a number of sites, the requirement is for air defence. I have also read that the Super Hornet is not under consideration, so it looks like the F-15, Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen are under consideration.

Given the size of the country - perhaps 15 min maximum to take off and fly from one end of the country to the other - I don't see that range is of any relevance. Given the mooted budget, it appears there is only enough money to buy Gripen unless the Swiss Air Force would be prepared to have one very small squadron of F-15/Rafale/Typhoon. Back of envelope calculation for F-15/Rafale/Typhoon: 2 x trainer @US$200 million + 8 x fighter @ US$200 million = US$2 billion

[Edited 2008-01-19 04:56:40]

Stoney · Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:35 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 11):
it has something to do with buying the aircraft cheap (fly-away cost) and pay through your nose for everything else

It's true that there are cost to upgrade or better said to keep the planes up to date practically yearly. I think next year there are like 500 million budgeted just for the hornets....

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 12):
Well,there is ore was anyway about 80 F-5 in Swiz Airforce.....will another fighter replace every unit almost everything feels like a overkill,above that they also have 30+ of F-18,s......

It will not be a one on one replacement. AFAIK the Swiss Air Force will try to get about 30 new planes, so they can keep their 6 squadrons of fighters, three hornet squadrons and three new ones. The trainers will not be in the same tranche of the budget, 6 are already bought and are being introduced right now.

BTW the RFP is only for the Typhoon, the Rafale, the Super Hornet and the Gripen, no F-16 and no F-15.....

petertenthije · Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:06 pm

Would it not be a closer match to replace the F-5 with something like the BAe Hawk or the Aero L-159?

wvsuperhornet · Sun Jan 20, 2008 10:57 am

I would think that ordering a smaller number of F-18 Superhornets would more likley fit their system, yes I do think its too much of an aircraft for what they need but they already have several F-18C models, so cross training pilots would be minimal. Also the older F-18's they have now could take over the F-5's roll and leave the front line stuff up to the new superhornets. Just something to think about.

columba · Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:31 am

The Swiss Air Force has two choices in my opinion:
1) Look for a real "Tiger" replacement which would only be the Gripen in size

or

2) Go for a multi-role aircraft that will replace both the Tiger and the Hornet in a few years, best choices here would be the Rafale or the Eurofighter. Since Austria and Germany have the Eurofighter a three nation deal on maintenance , training and parts might be a good sales argument by EADS.

ebj1248650 · Wed Jan 23, 2008 6:35 pm

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
My bet is on the Typhoon and the Gripen

Why not Rafale?

Tancrede · Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:46 pm

Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 28):
Why not Rafale?

I do agree with that question. Everybody is talking about the Gripen/superhornet and Typhoon, and even about others ruled out from the RFP, but no one mention the Rafale.
Please any opinion and estimation about the chances of the French fighter in this RFP would be welcome.

[Edited 2008-01-23 11:49:50]

F27Friendship · Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:23 pm

What counts for the hornet counts a bit for their mirage's as well.

sandrozrh · Sat Feb 16, 2008 1:39 pm

Quoting Stoney (Reply 3):
Considering that there will surely be a referendum and a vote by the Swiss people, the budget will be limited

Excellent point.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 9):
The're not really happy with their current hornets.

They're not indeed. Half of the fleet is constantly grounded due to technical issues, and the "cooperation" with the US hasn't exactly been what Switzerland expected it to be, hence i see very little chance for the Superhornet, needless to say it would be overkill anyway. And last but not least, it would make us even more dependant on the US's goodwill, which needs to be avoided.

Quoting Stoney (Reply 10):
Who said that? Would be the first time I heard this statement.

huh? It's a known and widely discussed fact that they're not happy with the Hornets. They are happy with the aircraft's performance in flight, but not so much with its reliability, which has been awful in the last couple of months to say the least, and as mentioned before, the cooperation with the US.

Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.

People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.

Stoney · Sat Feb 16, 2008 6:51 pm

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39):
People need to remember that it's not like Switzerland is going to war anytime soon. The Swiss Air Force's mission is a pure air-police mission over Swiss territory, and therefore we don't need an expensive totally state of the art fighter. Even the F5 is still very capable to fulfill the mission, the reason it will be replaced is purely its age, not its capabilities.

Well, the F-5s aren't capable of operating in all weather conditions, so they're not as capable as one would think. Another point is the electronic updates the Hornets received, giving them the ability to fulfill aspects like look-down capability, resulting in the fact that for example during WEF-style operations, less mobile radar stations on the ground etc are needed.
But I guess if the SAF didn't have the age problem with the tigers they would rather keep them in their present number as an add-on to the Hornet fleet than get a smaller number of replacements.

Even though a war isn't probable in the near future, never say never. Nobody knows, and it's easier to keep the knowledge and the capability on a minimum level, than to learn everything from scratch, when it probably would be too late anyway..

From my point of view it's not really important which plane is bought as a tiger replacement, because a huge part of that decision is political and you never know what or how our kindergarden, officially known as parliament, will decide, but rather that one plane is bought in sufficient numbers to give our Air Force enough means to do their job.

art · Wed Apr 30, 2008 10:18 pm

"Boeing had prepared to bid with the F/A-18E/F Block II Super Hornet, but withdrew after reviewing the contents of the request for proposal."

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...rnet-from-swiss-contract-race.html

Stoney · Mon May 05, 2008 8:07 am

working FlightGlobal article

Well, let the guessing begin: What could be the real reason behind this decision of boeing? What I heard was that the plane was too big to fit the infrastructure which was practically completely renewed for the hornet, but I don't know if that's true.
Another possibility I could imagine is that boeing doesn't think the 2.2b of this order is worth enough to really try selling stuff to Switzerland.

Anyway, I think the super hornet would have looked pretty cool flying around Switzerland, sad that it'll never get to that.

Official statement from the Swiss government

autothrust · Tue May 06, 2008 7:31 am

Quoting SandroZRH (Reply 39):
Personally, I'm hoping for the Gripen. A fighter fully capable to fulfill the Swiss air force's mission at relatively low cost built by a country that Switzerland has excellent relations with. Second on my list would be the Rafale. The Typhoon and the Superhornet would be too expensive and definately overkill.

I also bet for the Gripen its a good allround plane at a affordable price. However the question will be how much air superiority do we want for the money. Its speaks also for the Gripen that the METEOR/IRIS-T can be used.

But one thing is not quite true, while the aquisition costs are very high for the EF it has same or lower maintenance cost and higher reliability then the rest of the proposed fighters due to unique integrated health monitoring system and symplified systems.

art · Tue May 27, 2008 10:36 am

Quoting Art (Thread starter):
BERNE (AP)--The Swiss Federal Defense department has invited four airplane constructers, Boeing, Dassault, EADS and Gripen International to present offers by mid-May for the partial replacement of the country's Tiger fighter planes.

Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?

Arniepie · Tue May 27, 2008 5:19 pm

Maybe the biggest advantage the Gripen offers is its commonality with their F18 fighter.
They basically use the same engine (the RM12 is in fact a direct derivative of the GE-F404) and a ,as I understand, the data-link is NATO compatible and its able to use most of the Hornet's weaponry.

On a side-note I wish the BAF (Belgian air force) would go for the next GEN Gripen (with AESA if possible) , it's cheap enough but still very versatile and modern and most important of all ,can be bought in adequate numbers.

TGIF · Tue May 27, 2008 7:03 pm

Quoting Art (Reply 44):

Anyone heard if the remaining 3 constructors have presented their offers?

From Aviation Week: European Fighter Boom

Quote:

Switzerland

The Swiss requirement is for an F-5E Tiger II replacement and a formal Request for Proposals (RfP) will be issued in July. Initial responses to a Request for Information (RfI) are already being thoroughly evaluated at an air force, industrial and governmental level. The Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen are each in the running. Earlier this year Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin. Where that leaves the remaining twin-engined heavyweight contenders is anyone's guess.

...

Later this summer a series of flight evaluations will be held in-country. Bidders will submit their best and final offers (BAFOs) in early 2009, with a contract anticipated in mid-2009.

I find this especially interesting:
"...Boeing withdrew the Super Hornet on the grounds that it exceeded the Swiss requirements by too wide a margin."
With EF and Rafale are roughly the same size (or are there other issues?), why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...

SAS A340 · Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:57 pm

In July, Saab plans to show the plane in Switzerland.

The Swiss military is about to purchase new aircraft and the Swiss are also interested in purchasing equipment, support systems, and maintenance. The Jas 39 Gripen is one of the planes under consideration.

In January Switzerland requested on which Saab is now working. But the exact number of planes Switzerland is interested in purchasing remains secret.

"The Swiss are now working out a procurement order and will conduct service tests in Switzerland of those planes in which they have an interest," said Lasse Jansson, a spokesperson with Saab's Gripen International sales company.

"We will be travelling down to Switzerland with the Gripen in July for an evaluation. It will continue for a short while into August."

Following the evaluation, a decision will be taken regarding the submission of a formal bid.

Other planes in the competition include the French Rafale and the Eurofighter.

source : thelocal.se

Other Swedish media says that somewhere between 20 to 30 fighters are evaluated

Devilfish · Wed Jun 25, 2008 12:15 am

Quoting TGIF (Reply 46):
why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...

Wary of a tight contest?

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 47):
But the exact number of planes Switzerland is interested in purchasing remains secret.

This breaking news item from Defense-Aerospace says 33.....

Swiss military ready to buy up to 33 of Saab Gripen's JAS fighter aircraft

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...OX8AAAEAAAeNheEAAAAC&modele=jdc_34

Flight and Ground Tests with the Three Candidates for the Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) During the Second Half of 2008

(Source: armasuisse Swiss Defence Procurement Agency; dated June 17, web-posted June 23, 2008)

Quote:
"During the second half of 2008 flight and ground tests for the succession of the F-5E/F Tiger – the so-called Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE) will take place at the Emmen airbase. For about four weeks, each of the three candidates – Gripen, Rafale and Eurofighter – will be tested in a severe selection process. armasuisse is in charge of the evaluation and will perform it together with the Swiss Air Force.

The flight and ground tests will begin on 28 July with the first candidate, the Swedish Gripen. This aircraft will be followed by the French Rafale, and the last flight and ground tests with the Eurofighter will take place at the beginning of December."

art · Wed Jun 25, 2008 11:22 am

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):
This breaking news item from Defense-Aerospace says 33.....

Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.

Devilfish · Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:42 am

Quoting Art (Reply 49):
Perhaps I misread the article but I don't see any reference to 33.

It was in the red AFP headlines which disappear after a while. You'd see it if you do a search of the leader on the d-a site, or if you are a subscriber.

Bengan · Wed Jul 02, 2008 7:29 pm

Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 48):

Quoting TGIF (Reply 46):
why didn't the Swiss invite the F-16 to come out and play? I think it would suit the Switzerland just fine...

Wary of a tight contest?

My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.

Todays news:

Quoting Åke Svensson, Saab:
Switzerland is yet another example of the strong interest for Gripen worldwide. Our proposal meets all the requirements put forward by armasuisse. The Gripen proposal offers Switzerland the most cost-effective and proportionate replacement for the F-5E/F and moreover a perfect force fit with existing F/A-18 C/D. The proposal also features long-term viable industrial co-operation at 100 per cent of the contract value.

Saab handed over their RFP proposal to Armasuisse today: http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...srelease.htm?PressreleaseId=169274

They have also been looking at offset agreements - signing an MoU with Pilatus and opening cooperation discussions with Rheinmetall:

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/MediaRel...srelease.htm?PressreleaseId=169276

/Bengt

art · Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:27 am

As an aside, Gripen has joined the other aircraft being evaluated as F-35 alternatives by the Netherlands. From Aviation Week:

The defense ministry will, however, consider the Gripen Next Generation as an alternative option, alongside the three existing alternatives (the Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.

"In our previous evaluation, the Saab Gripen was deselected because it was found to have considerable shortcomings in range, armament, self-protection, interoperability and sensors," de Vries says.

"Saab has recently announced that a new version of Gripen is being developed, Gripen Next Generation, information on which so far is limited to what has been published in open sources. We will investigate this Next Generation variant in the coming months, particularly to assess the developments compared with the previous Gripen version. To do this, we need cooperation from the manufacturer, and we have contacted the company to ask for the information required."

Should Switzerland choose Gripen, one might guess that its chances of being selected by the Netherlands would improve in the event of the Dutch deciding against the F-35.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...e%20To%20Consider%20Super%20Hornet

art · Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:21 am

2 Gripens have arrived to be based at Emmen for evaluation.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...DSsAAAAP&prod=96587&modele=release

autothrust · Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:20 am

Quoting Art (Reply 52):
Eurofighter Typhoon Tranche 3, Dassault Rafale Standard F4 and Lockheed Martin Advanced (Block 60+) F-16E/F), de Vries says.

The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?

art · Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:51 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.
But the important question will be: What is better 5 F-35/EF/Rafale or 30 F-16 as example for Switzerland?

Sure EF/Rafale would cost much more than F-16 but more to the point, would cost much more than Gripen to buy and would cost much more than Gripen to operate.

I see it more like this: does Switzerland want to spend its budget on perhaps 30 Gripen or perhaps 20 EF/Rafale? Does Switzerland want 1 squadron of aircraft or 2? I don't see how the budget could buy enough EF/Rafale to make up 2 squadrons.

checksixx · Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:50 pm

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen.

Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

rheinwaldner · Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:06 am

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).

Devilfish · Thu Jul 31, 2008 4:03 am

Quoting Bengan (Reply 51):
My guess is because they have already evaluated the F-16, it lost out to the F-18 in 1992.

It may have lost against the F-18 then, but it isn't the Super Bug it would've been competing against in this tender had it been shortlisted. It's quite obvious that with the estimated budget, this would be decided on the basis of which platform will provide the most bang for the buck. A putative F-16NG could give the Gripen NG a run for its money. The EF and Rafale are simply too costly for the intended purpose.

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 54):
The F-16E/F isn't in the same ligue as the EF T3, Rafale F4 or Gripen. However it will depend heavily on the price which plane will win as Switzerland has a very limited budget.

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57):

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).

I concede that the F-16 will be punching way over its weight against the Typhoon, and may be outperformed by the Rafale due to the latter's twin engines (others may stick by the Falcon against it in AtA combat), but the Gripen NG (hitherto still in Demo form) couldn't definitely claim mastery of the F-16, especially if the proposed F-16IN comes to pass.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...la-2008-indian-bids-add-spice.html

Quote:
"The F-16IN variant on offer to India is a derivative of the F-16E/F (F-16U) Desert Falcon delivered to the UAE – arguably the most advanced F-16 ever built, with an Active Electronic Scanned Array (AESA) radar, advanced targeting pods and a new electronic warfare suite.

Acquisition of the F-16 would give India a proven platform, and some commonality with F-16s operated by other regional air forces."

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_4.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...aeronautics/products/f16/f16_6.jpg

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/data/a...tics/products/f16/F-16Brochure.pdf

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/f16/f16futureopts.html

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...2008/071508ae_f16_farnborough.html

TGIF · Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:13 pm

Update from Saab: Switzerland puts Gripen to the test

Quote:
The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat. All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.

...

“The Swiss are a very knowledgable and demanding customer and this very extensive flight and ground evaluation will really put us to the test. Consequently, I am convinced that this is an excellent opportunity for us to demonstrate to the Swiss authorities the real and proven qualities of the Gripen fighter”” says Manne K A Koerfer.

Sound like the Swiss will get a real feel for how the different contenders are performing doing Swiss missions under Swiss conditions. It will be very interesting to see which of the three euro-canards that will come out on top. When can we expect a decision?

SAS A340 · Mon Aug 11, 2008 5:50 pm

Quoting TGIF (Reply 59):
When can we expect a decision?

Early 2009 and a contract by 2010 and entered service by 2012.

art · Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:37 pm

Some info about the evaluation process being undertaken with Gripens:

Two Gripen D (two seat) aircraft, together with air and ground crews, are based at the Emmen air base, situated close to the city of Lucerne, where the evaluation process is taking place. The Gripens are being flown daily by test pilots from armasuisse and Saab as well as pilots from the Swiss and Swedish Air Forces. The majority of these flights are flown with a Swiss pilot in the front seat, supported by a Swede in the back seat.

All flights undertaken during the test and evaluation phase are flown according to a plan specified by armasuisse, with specific tasks for every flight, in order to give the Swiss evaluation team all the necessary information about the extensive operational multi-role capabilities of Gripen, including air defence, air policing and reconnaissance.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...AP&cat=3&prod=97008&modele=release

Be aware that the article cites Gripen International as source.

rheinwaldner · Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:54 pm

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 57):
Quoting Checksixx (Reply 56):
Obviously not the league as the EF or Gripen (if you really stretch it), but the Rafale? I'd take a F-16C Block 40 any day of the week over a Rafale.

Why is the Rafale less than the F-16C? Does not the Rafale have some Stealth capability (or will get it at least in the future).

Now that the Rafale has left Switzerland after the tests I reawake this thread. I found new food for discussion:
http://www.strategypage.com/militaryforums/6-52874.aspx
It seems that the most modern F-16 is no match for the Rafale (Rafale scored 6 to 2 against the F-16 Blk 52 earlier this year). It seems that the deciding factor was power and agility (that means that pimping the F-16 with new systems alone will not help).
At the Red Flag exercises the Rafale beat the F-18E with the same score:
http://www.milavia.net/specials/redflag08-4/
These scores can be considered what I would call domination. No wonder Boeing withdraw the F-18E. Too much bomber.

I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money. It seems that prior the F-35 JSF no US product is on par with the Euro Canards (except the beyond-the-scope F-22).

keesje · Wed Nov 05, 2008 4:14 pm

What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJiVsDygaM4

Low cost high capability solution & they liked the Mirage III.

autothrust · Thu Nov 06, 2008 12:42 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 63):
What about reworking a few dozen of low hour Mirage2000's and equip the with AESA radar e.g. AMSAR.

If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 62):
I wonder whether the Rafale may offer the most for the money.

Yes the Rafale would be also a good choice IMO. You would get 90% the efficiency of the EF for a much lower price. Negative point could be the absence of the two-way datalink to the Meteor, while the Gripen and EF feature that.

keesje · Thu Nov 06, 2008 10:55 am

Quoting AutoThrust (Reply 64):
If we buy something it must be a modern choice and worth the money so it keeps competitive for a while. An upgraded Mirage2000 will not. My guess is still the Gripen (NG) a good design and affordable.

I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.

rheinwaldner · Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:29 am

Quoting Keesje (Reply 65):
I think you can put a bigger AESA in the M2000 then in a Grippen, also the cockpit seems bigger (for big screens). Wait until the budget takes a hit, requirements don't go away. Techies get creative when a firm "no" appears on plan A.

The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.

F27Friendship · Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:50 am

Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 66):
The M2000 lost against the FA-18 in the nineties. Thus the logical step according to your line of reasoning would be getting more (probably used) FA-18C. But that has never been discussed. I think pimping solutions (be it M2000, F-16 or FA-18) are not on the radar.

one of the reasons they F-18C was selected of the F-16C was they Swiss thought the latter would not be in production anymore when they want more airframes.. well we all know what did happen.

As the F-18E and C have about 2 parts in common, that is not a good option either.

Maybe they will just not buy anything at all (since there will be a referendum about it anyway)

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