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Stitch
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Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:09 pm

I was perusing RobK's "Seattle Deliveries" page and noticed that the USAF 767-400ER, originally tasked to the now canceled E-10A program, has been assigned the line number 965, so it looks like she's official.

You can view her entry here - http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/767deliveries800-999.htm
Background on the E-10 program can be found here - http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/systems/e-10.htm
Boeing's page on the plane - http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/ic/e-10a/index.html
I also recommend a read of the article here - http://www.spyflight.co.uk/767%20mc2a.htm

While the original E-10A plan was eventually scrapped due to the inability to combine many fundamentaly incompatible functions (like passive ELINT on a plane engaged in active scanning) , a number of the subsystems designed for her have continued to be funded.

So it is quite possible the USAF wants to complete their 767-400ER and use her as either a static or active test-bed for these systems, which would then eventually be installed on separate fleets of aircraft performing their respective roles.
 
cancidas
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 20, 2008 6:26 am

maybe this is boeing's secret to winning the KC-45 contract...  

[Edited 2008-01-19 22:26:50]
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
FlagshipAZ
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 20, 2008 8:33 am

Good to see that this 767 has a service life now. In any role, she'll be useful, whether military
or civilian. I hate to see any brand-new airframe sit around & do nothing.
Regards.
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Stitch
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:46 pm

It should also be noted that LN965 has yet to begin construction, and should not be confused with LN953 - N766TT - which is a KC-767 (767-200) for the Japanese Air Self Defense Force.
 
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RobK
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 20, 2008 9:02 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
It should also be noted that LN965 has yet to begin construction

Not quite true Chris. 965 is the next one to roll out as the JAL pax machine (ln 964) is out on the ramp in primer so I think 965 will be well on its way to completion.

R
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 20, 2008 11:51 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 3):
It should also be noted that LN965 has yet to begin construction

Final body join was January 18, it will be outside in three weeks. I will have some pictures but can't put the link here, RobK will try to get my post deleted again.
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Stitch
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:48 am

I stand corrected. As I wrote it, I was wondering since LN963 is already "out and about", it stood to reason LN965 was somewhat along. Should have gone with my gut.  Smile Since leaving my job in Everett I don't drive by PAE on a daily basis anymore, so I am out of the loop on what's going on.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jan 21, 2008 4:45 am



Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
So it is quite possible the USAF wants to complete their 767-400ER and use her as either a static or active test-bed for these systems, which would then eventually be installed on separate fleets of aircraft performing their respective roles.

As you noted in the previous thread, the $256M final funding must have gone towards the acquisition of the 767-400ER, and for testing and evaluation of the resulting technology demonstrator and risk-reduction airframe.....

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_E-10_MC2A_Concept_lg.jpg

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...throp-to-end-e-10-development.html

Quote:
"Awarded to Northrop in its role as E-10A weapon system integrator, the latest $256 million contract covers design and analysis work under a scaled-back technology demonstration programme. But zeroing of the budget for 2008 means work on a new platform - previously expected to use the Boeing 767 - is unlikely to continue beyond the initial design review.

Instead, Northrop and the USAF are looking at transitioning technology to the existing E-8C JSTARS airborne ground surveillance system. This includes the wide-area sensor to be developed under the Multi-Platform Radar Technology Insertion Programme (MP-RTIP) and the battle management, command and control (BMC2) system being developed separately by Northrop for the E-10.

The MP-RTIP active-array radar remains in development for Northrop's RQ-4B Global Hawk unmanned air vehicle, and a larger version could replace the synthetic-aperture radar/ground moving-target indication sensor in the E-8. The still-funded BMC2 suite, meanwhile, could be the basis for a future 'back end' upgrade to the JSTARS."


Here's an older report describing the scope to be scaled back.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-could-fund-767-400er-testbed.html

Quote:
"The testbed aircraft configuration would be substantially curtailed from the original plan for a production-representative design, says Jerry Madigan, Northrop's E-10A programme manager. Boeing would still provide the 767-400ER, but Northrop would not be tasked with several planned modifications, including adding in-flight refuelling, anti-icing and military-standard cockpit controls.

The 767-400ER would not be considered the baseline E-10A platform under the new proposal, allowing USAF officials to decide on a common widebody platform for tankers and command and control aircraft after 2008.

In addition, the BMC2 system, which has already been cut back by 40%, would see further capability reductions, says Madigan. Only systems that are focused on providing a capability against cruise missiles and moving ground targets would be retained."
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cancidas
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jan 21, 2008 6:21 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 7):
The 767-400ER would not be considered the baseline E-10A platform under the new proposal, allowing USAF officials to decide on a common widebody platform for tankers and command and control aircraft after 2008.

is the 762 MRTT and 764 ELINT not common enough? i think so.
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Stitch
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned L

Mon Jan 21, 2008 7:30 pm



Quoting Cancidas (Reply 8):
is the 762 MRTT and 764 ELINT not common enough? i think so.

Boeing is depending on the 767-200's smaller size to win the KC-45A RFP against the larger KC-30B. Boeing could certainly offer the 767-400ER for the KC-45A, but at that point, the KC-30B really comes into her own in a comparison test.

And as easily as the USAF could use the 767-400ER for both a tanker and an RC/EC/E-series replacement, they could use the KC-30B, as well. So Boeing making the KC-767 Advanced having the same cockpit as the 767-400ER would be a way for Boeing to try and tie the tanker and the RC/EC/E-series replacement together across two platforms from within the same family.

I admit I am kind of surprised the E-10A was based on the 767-400ER. The 767 AWACS uses the 767-200ER so I would think Boeing would have pushed it for the RC/EC/E-series replacement to reinforce the original KC-767 bid, but then again they didn't really have to since they had a sole-source contract for the tanker at the time...
 
Flighty
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:41 pm

could it be as simple as, a tanker only needs wing capacity (which the 762 LRF has) and the AWACS application needs more floor space for staff and computers? Tanked fuel is a small and dense material.

The 762 LRF is going to be almost as heavy as a 764. Considering the 764 has more metal on it, the 762 may have superior tanker performance overall.
 
texl1649
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:56 am

It's not quite that simple, flighty, as APU requirements and fuel tank configurations etc. have all been thoroughly reviewed for each program, but yes, lift vs. floor space for the two programs are the two fundamental drivers behind the particularized model selection within the 767 airframe program.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Tue Jan 22, 2008 2:37 am

Would the clipped fan GEnx engine for the 747-8 fit under the 767-400ER wing?
 
texl1649
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:33 pm

GEnx engines have a 111 inch fan (Trent 1000 is about the same). The CF6 (engine used on the 767) has a fan that's about 105-106 inches (depending on the model).

I'm pretty sure that at one point an improved 767 was considered with a GEnx derivative, but I don't have a link to that and at this point it is possible that is a contrivance of my mind on two sips of coffee. Off-hand though, there's more than 5 inches worth of room for growth under the 767 wing (but Boeing/GE have no intention of doing this, well, maybe GE in a mid-life re-engine program circa 2045 for the USAF).
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:23 am

Do we know what MDS (designation) is going to be given to this airplane? C-45B maybe? Or perhaps a C-46A? IIRC, the B-767-400ER is only offered with the CF-6-80 engines, no P&W, like the KC-767ADV has.
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:44 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 14):
Do we know what MDS (designation) is going to be given to this airplane? C-45B maybe? Or perhaps a C-46A? IIRC, the B-767-400ER is only offered with the CF-6-80 engines, no P&W, like the KC-767ADV has.

 confused 

Hey, how about the E-10A ?!  irked 

R
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:31 am



Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
Hey, how about the E-10A ?!

I don't know, since there isn't an E-10A program anymore.
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:43 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 16):
Quoting RobK (Reply 15):
Hey, how about the E-10A ?!

I don't know, since there isn't an E-10A program anymore.

Excellent answer, TopBoom. I suspect the designation will be C-45 something or other; perhaps RC-45B or EC-45B, reflecting a commonality of sorts with the KC-45? Not sure on this. E-11, perhaps?
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 27, 2008 1:39 pm

ln965 now might be intended to replace N404PA "Paul Revere". N404PA was the testbed for systems intended for the E-10A.

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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:23 pm



Quoting Cancidas (Reply 1):
maybe this is boeing's secret to winning the KC-45 contract...

Nope, you can see from http://www.seattle-deliveries.com/767deliveries800-999.htm that LN923 is the frame that was going to be the original KC767, whereas we are discussing which was going to be the original USAF E-10A.

LN923 is more or less a 767-200ER.
LN965 is more or less a 767-400ER.
The current KC767 proposal is a 767-200ER fuse mated with 767-300ER wings and undercarraige and 767-400ER cockpit. No such frame has been built yet.
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Tue Jan 29, 2008 9:54 am



Quoting Revelation (Reply 19):
LN923 is more or less a 767-200ER.
LN965 is more or less a 767-400ER.
The current KC767 proposal is a 767-200ER fuse mated with 767-300ER wings and undercarraige and 767-400ER cockpit. No such frame has been built yet.

Maybe I got this wrong, but will the B-767ADV (B-767-200LRF) also have the raked wingtips of the B-767-400ER?
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned L

Tue Jan 29, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 20):
Maybe I got this wrong, but will the B-767ADV (B-767-200LRF) also have the raked wingtips of the B-767-400ER?

No, does that surprise you ?

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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 11:59 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 21):
No, does that surprise you ?

Actually, it does. The KC-30 has winglets, and many airlines are going to put winglets on their B-767s, all to save fuel. Raked wingtips essentially do the same thing as wingtips, reducing wingtip vorticies and drag, like winglets do. The plus side for this during refueling is less wake turbalance from the heavy tanker (but not elimiunation of the wake turbalance).

I know the wings proposed for the KC-767ADV are from the B-767-300ERF, but changing out the wingtips could be (more) easily engineered during the design process.

I don't know how long the -300ERF wingtips are from the main wing fuel tank, and surge tanks to the end of the wing, as compared to the raked wingtip design on the -400ER. Although the B-767-400ER has a 14' longer wingspan than the B-767-300ERF does. Looking at pictures and drawings it appears the raked wingtips of the -400ER are simply added to the standard wingtips of the -300ER. But, I'm guessing there is more engineering work done than that.
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 12:38 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 22):
I know the wings proposed for the KC-767ADV are from the B-767-300ERF, but changing out the wingtips could be (more) easily engineered during the design process.

If Boeing get the tanker contract, I think they will put them on. In my view the only reason why they are not there is the extension of 14 ft makes it closer and closer to the A330 wingspan of 197 ft, and blows the footprint issue out of the water.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 1:58 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 23):
If Boeing get the tanker contract, I think they will put them on. In my view the only reason why they are not there is the extension of 14 ft makes it closer and closer to the A330 wingspan of 197 ft, and blows the footprint issue out of the water.

It does take some away from their argument, no doubt about that. But, it is still not as much as the A-330s wingspan is still much longer. The B-767-300ERF has a span of 159' 1", and the B-767-400ER has a span of 170' 4", still some 27' shorter than the A-330.
 
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zeke
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 2:34 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
B-767-400ER has a span of 170' 4", still some 27' shorter than the A-330.

30' longer than the 135.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 3:00 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 25):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 24):
B-767-400ER has a span of 170' 4", still some 27' shorter than the A-330.


30' longer than the 135.

The wingspan of the KC-135 is 130' 10", the same lenght as the B-707-120 series (but it is a different wing design).
 
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Stitch
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:08 pm

Perhaps the wingtip extensions affect the vortex propagation behind the wings and this could impact either the stability of the two drogue refueling hoses or the stability of the planes tanking off those respective hoses?
 
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:48 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 27):
Perhaps the wingtip extensions affect the vortex propagation behind the wings and this could impact either the stability of the two drogue refueling hoses or the stability of the planes tanking off those respective hoses?

This could be. To extend that train of thought, the drogue tests (which were problematic for the Japanese and Italian fleet) were done on non-wingtipped 762s. Perhaps by not putting them on, Boeing can avoid new testing criteria.
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kc135topboom
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:44 am

The drogue test for the JASDF was only based on the centerline hose reel drum. The KC-767J does not use wingtip refueling pods.

But, I think raked wingtips, or blended winglets would be helpful on a KC-767, the KC-30 already has winglets..
 
dalb777
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:35 am

Has there been any word on the fate of this aircraft? It is still sitting on the ramp at PAE (next th the EK 777):

http://www.microvoltradio.com/images/kpae3537.jpg

Who technically owns it, the USAF or Boeing???
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XT6Wagon
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:49 am



Quoting Stitch (Reply 9):
admit I am kind of surprised the E-10A was based on the 767-400ER.

I think it was due to the size of the equipment at the time of the bid. Since then like all electronics the stuff they were going to put in has gotten alot smaller.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Return Of The 767-400ER - Usaf Bird Assigned Line#

Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:11 pm



Quoting Dalb777 (Reply 30):
Who technically owns it, the USAF or Boeing???

I was told it belongs to Boeing and later read it is for sale.

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