http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080129/..._go_pr_wh/military_surplus_tomcats
So how many Tomcats would still be flying around in Iran? Any ideas?
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- kc135topboom
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RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
IIRC, the IIAF ordered 72 F-14As and had taken delivery of 64 of them before the remainder were embargoed. My guess is Iran can probibly get 25% of those flyable, or 16 airplanes.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1): My guess is Iran can probibly get 25% of those flyable, or 16 airplanes. |
16 live targets for F-22s and F-15Cs.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1): My guess is Iran can probibly get 25% of those flyable, or 16 airplanes. |
With some very highly trained and proficient pilots, no doubt...
2H4
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Levent (Thread starter): So how many Tomcats would still be flying around in Iran? Any ideas? |
I was reading in an issue of Jane's Defence Weekly a few months back closer to 70% were still flyable.
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- ebj1248650
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RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1): IIRC, the IIAF ordered 72 F-14As and had taken delivery of 64 of them before the remainder were embargoed. My guess is Iran can probibly get 25% of those flyable, or 16 airplanes. |
I believe they ordered 80 and only a single one didn't get delivered. Rumor has it it went into storage at DM and may still be there.
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- F27Friendship
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RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1): IIRC, the IIAF ordered 72 F-14As and had taken delivery of 64 of them before the remainder were embargoed. My guess is Iran can probibly get 25% of those flyable, or 16 airplanes. |
I think it can be called remarkable that they managed to keep any flying.
BTW, happy birthday KC135TopBoom!
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 7): I think it can be called remarkable that they managed to keep any flying. |
the Iranians aren't stupid.. They have managed to keep plenty of American made airplanes flying for decades without any support. While the F-14s are not as common as say an F-16 I would think any moderately advanced country can probably maintain a lot of the systems with parts that can be bought anywhere.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
This article suggests that the figure is much lower.....
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2007918225711.asp
Iranian F-14s Fly Again
by James Dunnigan
September 18, 2007
Quote:
"Iran has restored three of its three-decade old F-14A jets to operational status. More F-14As are to be restored this year and next. There is, however, the matter of credibility and capability. For decades, Iran has continually boasted of new, Iranian designed and manufactured weapons, only to have the rather more somber truth leak out later. Iran's weapons design capabilities are primitive, but the government has some excellent publicists, who always manage to grab some headlines initially, before anyone can question the basic facts behind these amazing new weapons.
[.....]
Less well known is that Iran established a smuggling operation to obtain F-14 parts, and manufactured some itself. Russia also helped with some custom made parts and refurbishment. But going into the 1990s, fewer and fewer Iranian F-14s were seen in the air.
[.....]
The new claims, that three are flyable, appear to be true. Some F-14s have been seen in the air, but don't expect another major, or even minor, flyover in Tehran. Iran says it is making new weapons for the F-14, without mentioning that the supply of U.S. made missiles ran out over a decade ago. The F-14 also needs new electronics, as part for those items are much harder to get than items needed to get the aircraft into the air. Iran can, at great effort and expense, get a dozen or so F-14s into the air. But once flying, these ancient and jury-rigged aircraft, are more target than threat."
And as already noted, it has just been made a lot harder.....
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...UX8AAAEAAFWaO-4AAACM&modele=jdc_34
U.S. moves to keep F-14 parts from Iran
[Edited 2008-01-29 10:28:45]
http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2007918225711.asp
Iranian F-14s Fly Again
by James Dunnigan
September 18, 2007
Quote:
"Iran has restored three of its three-decade old F-14A jets to operational status. More F-14As are to be restored this year and next. There is, however, the matter of credibility and capability. For decades, Iran has continually boasted of new, Iranian designed and manufactured weapons, only to have the rather more somber truth leak out later. Iran's weapons design capabilities are primitive, but the government has some excellent publicists, who always manage to grab some headlines initially, before anyone can question the basic facts behind these amazing new weapons.
[.....]
Less well known is that Iran established a smuggling operation to obtain F-14 parts, and manufactured some itself. Russia also helped with some custom made parts and refurbishment. But going into the 1990s, fewer and fewer Iranian F-14s were seen in the air.
[.....]
The new claims, that three are flyable, appear to be true. Some F-14s have been seen in the air, but don't expect another major, or even minor, flyover in Tehran. Iran says it is making new weapons for the F-14, without mentioning that the supply of U.S. made missiles ran out over a decade ago. The F-14 also needs new electronics, as part for those items are much harder to get than items needed to get the aircraft into the air. Iran can, at great effort and expense, get a dozen or so F-14s into the air. But once flying, these ancient and jury-rigged aircraft, are more target than threat."
And as already noted, it has just been made a lot harder.....
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/cgi...UX8AAAEAAFWaO-4AAACM&modele=jdc_34
U.S. moves to keep F-14 parts from Iran
[Edited 2008-01-29 10:28:45]
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
I have one word for this article and Bush....paranoia
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- wvsuperhornet
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RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
This isnt very new news. Its been in the works for some time now most of the F-14's the US had retired have been detroyed along with their parts. Rumor has its that one squadron of the newer F-14D's was saved for future use if needed but other than that everything else has been torn up. My understanding is that the Russians had updated some of the F-14's for Iran but they werent very sucessfull since they didnt build it they did have the grasp on the concepts it would be like US engineers trying to upgrade a Flanker its just doesnt work very well. Iran does have a few flying but reports they are in terrible shape and their pilots dont get many flight hours in them. Even they were looking to replace the F-14s with Flankers. So i doubt many are in fighting condition.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
The F-14 should have never been exported in the first place, especially to Iran of all places.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Michlis (Reply 12): Why is it paranoid to deny any possible military advantage to a potential adversary? Besides, this has to irritate he hell out of the Iranians or at least make them go stir-crazy trying to obtain parts |
Because:
a) Those planes are old and outdated and pose little to no threat to the US if a US invasion should happen.
b) They lack weapons for them
c) They are interceptors, it's not like Iran is going to attack us with F-14s
d) Given how hard it was to maintain them in USN service with full product support, I doubt the Iranians could pull off much even if we did sell them parts.
I'm not sayin the US should just offer them parts or lift the embargo but I think it is ridiculous how much paranoia and special steps there are just to prevent Iran from possibly getting a handful of old jets in the air.
If there really are 3 F-14s flying or whatever I'm almost positive it was done for show and their weapons systems are probably not working.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): a) Those planes are old and outdated and pose little to no threat to the US if a US invasion should happen |
Any threat that can be lessened should be, and cutting off parts from the persians reduces the threat these aircraft poses. History is full of examples where somebody got their arse's wacked because they assumed something posed little to no threat.
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): b) They lack weapons for them |
They have them. It isn't like there isn't any AIM-9, AIM-7 or Sky-flash's on the black market. Plus I doubt 20MM is hard to find either.
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): c) They are interceptors, it's not like Iran is going to attack us with F-14s |
Nooooooo
, no muslim has ever flown an airplane in a building in a suicide homicide.And the F-14 still has hardpoints, hang the bombs from them, and just fly it into the target, no release needed.
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): d) Given how hard it was to maintain them in USN service with full product support, I doubt the Iranians could pull off much even if we did sell them parts. |
The Iranians aren't flying theirs off carriers, so they haven't been stressed like the USN birds are.
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): but I think it is ridiculous how much paranoia and special steps there are just to prevent Iran from possibly getting a handful of old jets in the air. |
It's not paranoia if they really are after you!!!
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting L-188 (Reply 16): They have them. It isn't like there isn't any AIM-9, AIM-7 or Sky-flash's on the black market. Plus I doubt 20MM is hard to find either. |
True. I guess I should've clarified and said AIM-54s. AIM-9 and AIM-7 is far less of a threat to say...an F-22
| Quoting L-188 (Reply 16): And the F-14 still has hardpoints, hang the bombs from them, and just fly it into the target, no release needed. |
That's an interesting scenario. However I doubt an F-14 will make it to US soil before getting shot down. Besides, why would they go through this trouble and headaches of restoring F-14s just so they can crash them. They can easily do this with any other planes they have that are already flying and/or much easier to fly and restore.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
Don't know how many are airworthy at the moment but from all the info I've read over the years I think there are far more then "a few". Don't forget that besides the F-14's and far simpler F-5's which they are building new from scratch, they also have quite a lot of F-4's still flying. All of that without spares support (although there may be some backchannel).
What is understood is that they are out,or almost out of AIM-54 Phoenix missles, but that they use the Tomcat's radar in a search mode and then team with the F-4's to set up the attach.
Just for anybody who thinks that Iran is just a country full of uneducated suicidal muslims I have only a few words.... get a dose of realism. Even though the regime is not really interested to participate with the western world, any visit to Teheran will give you a few surprises. While there is a conservative side of the city, there is also a very western side of the city with clubs, pubs, students partying etc... Not the image that most people would have of Iran.
What is understood is that they are out,or almost out of AIM-54 Phoenix missles, but that they use the Tomcat's radar in a search mode and then team with the F-4's to set up the attach.
Just for anybody who thinks that Iran is just a country full of uneducated suicidal muslims I have only a few words.... get a dose of realism. Even though the regime is not really interested to participate with the western world, any visit to Teheran will give you a few surprises. While there is a conservative side of the city, there is also a very western side of the city with clubs, pubs, students partying etc... Not the image that most people would have of Iran.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting FVTu134 (Reply 18): Just for anybody who thinks that Iran is just a country full of uneducated suicidal muslims I have only a few words.... get a dose of realism. |
I was under the impression that Iran was somewhat like Turkey, fairly Western friendly, but with some nut jobs running the country. Alot of people dont agree with the leadership of the country, but if you make too much noise, you dissappear.
As for blocking F-14 parts sales... who would have a use for F-14 specific parts? The USN isnt in the Tomcat business anymore, and the only other operator is Iran. The only other country with a use for these parts is one the world dont really want to have speed boats, not to mention a cold war era interceptor aircraft. With 3 F-14s, Iran can still do some damage. If I had a few Tomcats and wanted to cause some issues, I would paint them up like a USN F-14, and show up somewhere they shouldnt be. An appearant USN F-14 showing up would certainly make anyone pause before deciding they were an enemy target.
Maybe they just want to tour the airshow circut?
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
I don't understand why people think that the Iranians cannot keep F-14's flying. They are just aircraft, not mystical beasts. True, they have some advanced systems for their time, but that is 30 year old technology. In the UK we have a number of small civvie groups keeping jet warbirds going, Hunters and Gnats are relatively simple, but we also have a Sea Vixen (a carrier aircraft with folding wings) and a Vulcan bomber. In South Africa they fly some of our ex-Lightnings and Buccaneers, all privately funded. If civvies can do that, I would imagine that a government, with government resources would be able to do much more.
How many they have flying, how effective they will be and which system are still workable is hard to say, but there will be plenty of capable engineers in Iran, more than are available to the jet warbird groups of the UK. Anyone who thinks that the Iranians are uneducated and incapable is a fool. With the US and Iranian relations at a huge low, I can understand why the US administration is taking any step to make their life harder, no matter how little impact it may appear to have.
Best regards,
Jim
How many they have flying, how effective they will be and which system are still workable is hard to say, but there will be plenty of capable engineers in Iran, more than are available to the jet warbird groups of the UK. Anyone who thinks that the Iranians are uneducated and incapable is a fool. With the US and Iranian relations at a huge low, I can understand why the US administration is taking any step to make their life harder, no matter how little impact it may appear to have.
Best regards,
Jim
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Buss61 (Reply 13): The F-14 should have never been exported in the first place, especially to Iran of all places |
Oh well, the US seem to have sold stuff to former allies turned enemies before (I'm thinking of the Taliban, Saddam...)
| Quoting L-188 (Reply 16): Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): c) They are interceptors, it's not like Iran is going to attack us with F-14s Nooooooo , no muslim has ever flown an airplane in a building in a suicide homicide. |
I doubt it that an Iranian F-14 can make it from Iran to the US non-stop AND undetected... Of course, they could load the aircraft onto a ship and paint it in US Navy colours...
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Sovietjet (Reply 15): I'm not sayin the US should just offer them parts or lift the embargo but I think it is ridiculous how much paranoia and special steps there are just to prevent Iran from possibly getting a handful of old jets in the air. |
Logically, it may seem ridiculous, but public opinion and the media hardly ever let logic stand in the way of passing judgment. This story has been around for a bit and if the President did nothing he would be grilled mercilessly...even more so if an Iran F-14 got a lucky shot. Furthermore, allowing the Iranians to acquire the parts for their aricraft would only encourage them more and would really be interpreted as another sign of weakness on the part of the United States.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Buss61 (Reply 13): The F-14 should have never been exported in the first place, especially to Iran of all places. |
Read history much?
Iran and the US used to be tight under the Shah.. In the late 70s they wanted the best thing we had, and they had the money to pay for it. So Carter sold them the F-14.
So in 10 years are you going to be saying we shouldn't have sold Saudi Arabia the F-15S? Don't be surprised if the Saudis end up with F-22s as well. Politics is not an easy business.
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- F27Friendship
- Posts: 1099
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RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 8): the Iranians aren't stupid.. |
I meant exactly the opposite...
| Quoting Oroka (Reply 19): I was under the impression that Iran was somewhat like Turkey, fairly Western friendly, but with some nut jobs running the country |
You don't really seam to know Turkey?! It's a great country for holidays, culture, and also studying; for example, the Middle Eastern Technical University in Ankara is a very good university, run like an American one.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
No Slammer and no Phoenix = no teeth. I suppose they could be an issue if they found a way to strap an Exocet to it and went after the fleet. Even that would have to be a very lucky shot though. They probably would never get within range in the first place and they certainly wouldn't make it home. That'd be "stirring up a Hornet's nest" to say the least. 
Still, I see the point, no advantage of any kind to a potential enemy. Let them fly twin-tailed F-5s.
I'll wager 16 Raptors and an AWACS against 100 Iranian SU-30s.
[Edited 2008-01-30 11:48:26]
Still, I see the point, no advantage of any kind to a potential enemy. Let them fly twin-tailed F-5s.
| Quoting Flipdewaf (Reply 14): Quoting Michlis (Reply 2): 16 live targets for F-22s and F-15Cs. Or maybe they'll get Russian jets and they might be using the US aircraft as target practice? |
I'll wager 16 Raptors and an AWACS against 100 Iranian SU-30s.
[Edited 2008-01-30 11:48:26]
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
Wasn't there a news story about one or more private military museums having their F-14's confiscated in the name of national security in the last year or so?
Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
It's a no brainer making sure parts don't get into the wrong hands. However cutting up F-14's in the desert is overkill if you ask me. While they are at it they might as well cut up all the F-4's and AH-1's.
[Edited 2008-01-30 17:12:57]
[Edited 2008-01-30 17:12:57]
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
In view of the very widely divergent estimates on current IRIAF inventory and order-of-battle, can anyone provide a advice on reasonable approximations, such as nos. of remaining F-4/5/14s and operational recently-acquired Russian equipment, such as MiG-29/31s and Su-22/24/25s ?
Also, anything new on the supposed deal to supply Iran with the Su-30 ?
Also, anything new on the supposed deal to supply Iran with the Su-30 ?
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 25): You don't really seam to know Turkey?! It's a great country for holidays, culture, and also studying; for example, the Middle Eastern Technical University in Ankara is a very good university, run like an American one. |
I was speaking about the politics. The general population is not nearly as anti-american as Iran's leadership is. Turkey is a nice place to visit, and if it wasnt for the nut jobs who run the place now, Iran would be a nice place too.
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting CaptOveur (Reply 23): Read history much? Iran and the US used to be tight under the Shah.. In the late 70s they wanted the best thing we had, and they had the money to pay for it. So Carter sold them the F-14. So in 10 years are you going to be saying we shouldn't have sold Saudi Arabia the F-15S? Don't be surprised if the Saudis end up with F-22s as well. Politics is not an easy business. |
Oh yeah Carter, the same guy who gave away the Panama Canal!!! I know my history well...
Your right politics is not an easy business you just have to be a better judge of who you do business with, and will give Saudi Arabia anything they want as long as the oil keeps coming our way.
[quote=Levent,reply=21]
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
If I remember correctly, didn't Saddam's air force escape to Iran with more than 100 MiG 21s, 25s and 29s. Don't remember if any were returned after Gulf War I. If they're still there, why not just repaint them and you have a whole new air force. Why bother with an F-14 held together with baling wire?
RE: Bush Blocks F-14 Parts Sales
| Quoting Levent (Reply 21): Oh well, the US seem to have sold stuff to former allies turned enemies before (I'm thinking of the Taliban, Saddam...) |
The Taliban was never a US ally, and there is little evidence that they got direct aid from the US. They got their aid via Pakistan. In the case of Iraq, it was an enemy before it became something under than an ally and then an enemy again. The US did not have diplomatic relations with Iraq during the 70s.
| Quoting Oroka (Reply 30): I was speaking about the politics. The general population is not nearly as anti-american as Iran's leadership is. Turkey is a nice place to visit, and if it wasnt for the nut jobs who run the place now, Iran would be a nice place too. |
Turkey's population is probably more anti-American than Iran's population.
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