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zeke
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 12, 2008 6:26 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
There are similarities between the KC-30 and KC-45, as well as the A-330TT and A-330MRTT, just as the KC-767A, KC-767J, and KC-767AT have similarities. The KC-30 is based on the A-330-200 airliner, the KC-45 (if built) will be based on the A-330-200F, the USAF said that.

What is an A330TT ? Now such beast made by EADS/Airbus.

The KC-30 and KC-45 is the same aircraft, the KC-30 is the EADS designation, KC-45 the NG designation. The RAAF use the designation of KC-30B for their tankers, not A330-MRTT (see http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/kc30b.htm)

The KC-30/45 is a modified passenger aircraft, not the freighter. The freighter has modified nose gear and fuselage blister for the gear. see http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...ut-levels-cabin-floor-to-ease.html

The USAF has not said the KC-45 is a modified A330-200F.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
The KC-45A will have different avionics than the KC-30B

Incorrect, same cockpit avionics, they will both be A330E.

They may have some additional boxes added for like TACAN/UHF comms etc, that is all under floor, and accessed via the standard RMP. What the pilots will see will be the same as the A330E.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
s well as "smart tanker" technoligy (in most KC-135Rs) the RAAF isn't getting

Such as ?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
The KC-45A will have a MTOW of 513Klbs, compared to the 508Klbs of the KC-30B.

Incorrect, the RAAF aircraft are 233t MTOW.

"233 tonnes (maximum take-off weight), 180 tonnes (maximum landing weight)" from http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/kc30b.htm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
The KC-30B has a refueling boom designed and built in Spain. While the KC-45A will have a slightly different refueling EADS boom built in West Virgina.

Same EADS boom design, different manufacturing site to increase the US content.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 12, 2008 7:55 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):
What is an A330TT ? Now such beast made by EADS/Airbus



Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):
Incorrect, same cockpit avionics, they will both be A330E.

They may have some additional boxes added for like TACAN/UHF comms etc, that is all under floor, and accessed via the standard RMP. What the pilots will see will be the same as the A330E.

Really?

Quote:
is a derivative of the tanker/transport aircraft already selected for service in the air forces of Australia, United Kingdom, United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc45/

Quote:
The British government has selected the AirTanker Consortium and its A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport (MRTT) as the preferred bidder for its Future Strategic Tanker Aircraft requirement. The A330 MRTT also was chosen as the Royal Australian Air Force's next-generation multi-role tanker/transport.

http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc45/solutions/experience.html

Do try to get your facts straight Zeke.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 12, 2008 11:40 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
The KC-45A will have a MTOW of 513Klbs, compared to the 508Klbs of the KC-30B.

Incorrect, the RAAF aircraft are 233t MTOW.



Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):
"233 tonnes (maximum take-off weight), 180 tonnes (maximum landing weight)" from http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/...b.htm

507,063lbs MTOW for the KC-30B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-30B
 
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Tugger
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 13, 2008 12:27 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 249):
The KC-45A will have a MTOW of 513Klbs, compared to the 508Klbs of the KC-30B.

Incorrect, the RAAF aircraft are 233t MTOW.

"233 tonnes (maximum take-off weight), 180 tonnes (maximum landing weight)" from http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/...b.htm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 252):

Quoting Zeke (Reply 250):
"233 tonnes (maximum take-off weight), 180 tonnes (maximum landing weight)" from http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/...b.htm

507,063lbs MTOW for the KC-30B.

People are confusing "Tonnes" i.e. "Metric Tons" with USA's common use "Tons".
233 Metric Ton (Tonnes) equals 513,677 pounds.

Tugg
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 13, 2008 2:33 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 253):
People are confusing "Tonnes" i.e. "Metric Tons" with USA's common use "Tons".
233 Metric Ton (Tonnes) equals 513,677 pounds.

correct.

1 ton = 2,000lbs (also sometimes called a short ton)
1 tonne = 2,208lbs
1 long ton = 2,240lbs
 
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zeke
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sun May 18, 2008 4:24 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 251):
http://www.northropgrumman.com/kc45/solutions/experience.html

Do try to get your facts straight Zeke.

What exactly did I get wrong, your post is far to cryptic for anyone to understand?

FYI

A330 MRTT - EADS designation http://www.eads.com/1024/en/businet/...iltrair/derivatives/A330-MRTT.html
KC-30B MRTT - RAAF designation http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/kc30b.htm
FSTA - RAF designation http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/futurestrategictankeraircraft.cfm
KC-45A - USAF & Northrup Grumman designation

It is not uncommon for the different Air Forces to have different designations for the same aircraft, Canada for example calls its A310 MRTT a CC-150 MRTT, and in Germany as the A310 MRT (not MRTT), EADS calls them A310 MRTTs.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 252):
507,063lbs MTOW for the KC-30B.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KC-30B

You are trying to suggest that Wiki has it right , and the official Australian Government Air Force page that I linked has it wrong ?

Anyone can put what they like on Wiki, it is not an authoritative source.

Have a look at the official pages again http://www.airforce.gov.au/aircraft/kc30b.htm, you will note under the "KC-30B Multi-Role Tanker Transport technical specifications" it clearly states "233 tonnes (maximum take-off weight), 180 tonnes (maximum landing weight)"

Quoting Tugger (Reply 253):
People are confusing "Tonnes" i.e. "Metric Tons" with USA's common use "Tons".
233 Metric Ton (Tonnes) equals 513,677 pounds.

Not really, the A330 does have a MTOW weight variation of 230,000 kg, just the version that the RAAF are using is 233,000 kg, the wiki page is wrong and needs updating.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Gemuser
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 21, 2008 1:44 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 228):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 227):The issue is that fuel burn is a direct function of DRAG, not WEIGHT.
False.

Brave statement about DRAG to a naval architect who designs and builds submarines for a living  Smile

Gemuser
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osiris30
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 21, 2008 2:40 am



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 256):
Quoting Alien (Reply 228):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 227):The issue is that fuel burn is a direct function of DRAG, not WEIGHT.
False.

Brave statement about DRAG to a naval architect who designs and builds submarines for a living

Indeed. Weight has a impact on drag (but only when coupled with structural shaping), but drag has the direct impact on fuel burn. Weight is not a direct function of fuel burn. Astuteman was spot on as usual.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
baroque
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 21, 2008 11:36 am



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 256):
Brave statement about DRAG to a naval architect who designs and builds submarines for a living

Well what do you expect when a whole class of subs gets named after the guy?  duck   eyebrow 
 
astuteman
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 21, 2008 3:04 pm



Quoting Gemuser (Reply 256):
Quoting Alien (Reply 228):
Quoting Astuteman (Reply 227):The issue is that fuel burn is a direct function of DRAG, not WEIGHT.
False.

Brave statement about DRAG to a naval architect who designs and builds submarines for a living

An acknowledgement is required to all of those knowledgeable A-netters who contributed to my (our collective?) better understanding of drag in the various threads in Tech/Ops..  highfive 
To be fair, the only time I've been involved in lift, is when discussing how much induced "bouyancy" the hydroplanes can provide....  Smile

Rgds
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Fri May 23, 2008 12:19 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 228):
False. Let me ask you a question. Is it easier to walk up a flight of stairs with a bag of goceries or is it easier walking up unencumbered? While driving a car, do you use the gas pedal more when going up a hill or down a hill? This is simple physics.

For the climb and descend following needs to be considered: Effort minus benefit is almost zero. Physics teaches if you load an object with potential energy you will get that energy back if you unload it again. Climbing to cruise level adds potential energy to an aircraft. In descent you will get it back. The more weight you lifted initially the more energy you get back later. That means a heavy aircraft can begin its idle thrust descend earlier (all other things equal). A heavy airplane can always translate altitude better to distance (under idle thrust).

Therefore sailplanes prefer to take additional weight with them (water in tanks). It allows them to glide further/or faster.
They have the benefit that for the initial climb they draw from someone else's power. But once being at altitude they take benefit from the bigger potential energy that they have. If they had to climb by their own power the outcome would be: No win, no loose. Effort minus benefit would be zero regardless how heavy the plane.

That is just for lift-weight-to-altitude consideration. Elsewhere weight counts, but in this regard it is negligible.
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rwessel
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 24, 2008 6:12 am



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 260):
Therefore sailplanes prefer to take additional weight with them (water in tanks). It allows them to glide further/or faster.
They have the benefit that for the initial climb they draw from someone else's power. But once being at altitude they take benefit from the bigger potential energy that they have. If they had to climb by their own power the outcome would be: No win, no loose. Effort minus benefit would be zero regardless how heavy the plane.

That's not why we use ballast. First, if it was only the extra energy you'd catpure from the tug, it wouldn't amount to very much - you stay up by finding lift, not from your initial tow. If there's no lift, it's going to be a ~10 minute flight from that 2000ft tow no matter what.

Second, your physics don't work. Dumping the ballast overboard doesn't return any extra energy to the sailplane. The water gives up all its potential energy as it falls back to the ground, but that happens long after it leaves the glider. When you dump the ballast (without accelerating it away from the aircraft), that mass takes all its potential energy with it.

Anyway, what we *do* use ballast for is to move the L/D curves to the right (towards higher speeds). Basically the best L/D doesn't change (actually it does a bit, but it's minimal) at the higher weight, but that best L/D happens at a higher airspeed. Your minimum sink rate increases as well, but again, you get there at a higher airspeed. The point is that you can fly faster in a heavier glider (with the L/D curve shifted to the right), with the same L/D. IOW, I can still cover 40 miles for every 5280ft of altitude in a 40:1 glider, but if I have 350lbs of ballast along, that might be at 65kts instead of 50. That's good on a day with strong lift, and having the ballast will allow you to cover more distance. If the strength of the lift reduces (as it does at the end of the day), you're better off in a slower glider with a lower min-sink, and best L/D at a slower airspeed. So you jettison the ballast at that point.

Or if conditions are strong all day long, you douse the crowd at the field just before landing.  Smile

Note that on occasion people use solid ballast (everything from a sandbag under the seat cushion to a lead weight in a dedicated fixture) on particularly strong days, if the glider is not equipped with water tanks. Works exactly the same, except that you can't get rid of it.
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 26, 2008 12:53 pm



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 261):

I still try to figure out whether we are talking about the same just from different perspective.
My argument is: If two wheeled vehicles drive down a ramp the heavier one will be faster in the end. It had more potential energy at the beginning. More potential energy translates into more speed if altitude is transformed in speed. I assume strongly the same works for sailplanes. I you aim for both vehicles to have the same speed the heavier will require a less steep ramp.

To make it short I have experienced the following with FS:
All things equal a heavy 737 experienced a smaller "vertical-speed" when descending than a lighter one. I had a hard time explaining the phenomena. Above thought helped and consulting CL/CD curves too. Fact is: A heavier plane at altitude goes further or faster.
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Klaus
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 26, 2008 3:41 pm



Quoting Rheinwaldner (Reply 262):
My argument is: If two wheeled vehicles drive down a ramp the heavier one will be faster in the end.

No, it won't be.

In fact, without air and ground friction they would reach the exact same speed at the same point.

The higher potential energy is required to overcome the higher inertia of the more massive vehicle.


The thing with airplanes is that when they are loaded heavier, they still have the same shape. It is their effective density that goes up. As far as I can see, more mass in the same shape, somewhat higher drag related to the higher llift required but the form-related drag would otherwise be the same and matter less compared to the higher potential energy available for conversion to airspeed during descent.
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 26, 2008 8:50 pm

One issue that hasn't been discussed, but I hope will be covered in the GOA review, is the impact that the falling Dollar has on the price. The Euro has hit $1.59 and is still climbing. What if it hits $2.00 (possible with our Administration) before the first Airbus is delivered? Are we (the taxpayers) protected in any way? Will the NG/Airbus option still provide the "best bang for the buck"? Did the USAF actually take the time to consider these factors and build in any protection?
 
pygmalion
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon May 26, 2008 11:24 pm

The USAF contracts are in Dollars... if the Euro does up in relation to the dollar.. EADS makes less profit.
 
Ken777
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 27, 2008 2:54 am



Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 265):
The USAF contracts are in Dollars

I understand that. However, with all the joys Airbus has been having with the rising Euro on the commercial side I can't believe that they would not ensure they have some protection on the exchange rate built into the agreement - even if is a cost plus approach. That presents the question of what is going to happen if the Dollar continues to fall. If it's not in the list of issues Boeing sent to the GAO then you can be sure that the Congress will address it.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 27, 2008 7:57 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 264):
Did the USAF actually take the time to consider these factors and build in any protection?

The USAF contract is with NG not EADS, so there should be no need to account for Euro exchange rate. If the contract had been directly with EADS, then it would almost certainly include provisions for exchange rate fluctuations (in both directions), especially given the multi-year nature of the program.

Part of the reason for assembling the KC-45s in Alabama is to help to lower the Euro cost of the project. Any Euro/$ fluctuations should only be an issue between NG and EADS.
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astuteman
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 27, 2008 7:58 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 266):
I can't believe that they would not ensure they have some protection on the exchange rate built into the agreement - even if is a cost plus approach

I would have thought hedging would be the obvious solution........

Rgds
 
Klaus
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue May 27, 2008 5:13 pm

EADS is most probably ready to eat up even a loss to a certain degree just to get a foot in the door with the USAF.

If the KC-45 project should turn out to be a satisfying deal for the american side, it could allow EADS to establish itself as a regular bidder for US military projects with a lot less hysteria than we're seeing here and now. That could be worth taking a greater currency risk than for a regular order.

And as said above, Aibus/EADS is usually hedging against adverse currency fluctuations. But of course there are limits to that.

I just don't think that the USD/EUR rate will remain where it is today for a really long time. But that's of course just a guess.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 1:06 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 264):
The Euro has hit $1.59 and is still climbing. What if it hits $2.00 (possible with our Administration)

No, it is not possible with the Bush, or any other Administration. The exchange rate of currency is set by market forces, not governments.
 
osiris30
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 4:45 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 270):
No, it is not possible with the Bush, or any other Administration. The exchange rate of currency is set by market forces, not governments.

Generally correct, but.. wars and such things can have a direct impact on the value of a country's currency (coups are also a good one  Wink ).

Governments *can* influence monitary value, both directly like above, and in more subtle ways (i.e. interest rates, etc.). Additionally some governments have their currency pegged to some other arbitrary currency at an arbitrary exchange rate and without a gold backed currency in effect anymore, there's nothing stopping any government from doing that.
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 4:13 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 264):

One issue that hasn't been discussed, but I hope will be covered in the GOA review, is the impact that the falling Dollar has on the price. The Euro has hit $1.59 and is still climbing. What if it hits $2.00 (possible with our Administration) before the first Airbus is delivered? Are we (the taxpayers) protected in any way? Will the NG/Airbus option still provide the "best bang for the buck"? Did the USAF actually take the time to consider these factors and build in any protection?

It's back to around $1.55. The Euro is unlikely much above $1.60.

Anyway here are some interest comments from Loren Thompson

http://lexingtoninstitute.org/1268.shtml

It is now three months since the Air Force shocked the world by awarding the contract for its next-generation aerial-refueling tanker to Northrop Grumman and the European parent of Airbus. Throughout that time, service officials have insisted that the process by which the winner was chosen was transparent and fair. But the service has failed to answer even the most basic questions about how the decision was made to deny the contract to Boeing, the widely favored incumbent. The Government Accountability Office is expected to issue a ruling on Boeing's protest of the outcome in mid-June. Whatever it finds, the Air Force has some explaining to do...
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TropicBird
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 272):
Whatever it finds, the Air Force has some explaining to do...

Mr. Thompson also has some explaining to do with his "access" to the USAF on sensitive tanker information. Interesting posting on the subject linked below.


http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2008/05/27/about-face-on-the-tanker/
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 5:24 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 273):

It is interesting how he's suddenly moving to the Boeing playbook. I wonder if, like the article states, his sources have suddenly disappeared because of Congressional scrutiny and he's trying to make his position seem more balanced. On the day the award was announced, I mentioned in another post how this guy, an outsider, managed to obtain so much information regarding the award. And some people actually acted like it was nothing unusual.  scratchchin 

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 272):
It's back to around $1.55. The Euro is unlikely much above $1.60.

Unlikely, perhaps, but definitely not an impossibility and woe to the analysts that don't build into their costing models a EUR/USD exchange rate range that includes $1.60 or higher because then that will only reflect wishful thinking.
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 274):
Unlikely, perhaps, but definitely not an impossibility and woe to the analysts that don't build into their costing models a EUR/USD exchange rate range that includes $1.60 or higher because then that will only reflect wishful thinking.

The reason why I say it is unlikely is that the current exchange rate is a correction of the long standing undervaluation of European economic output which was giving them an advantage. When the dollar was at its highest, US per head output was valued over 50% more than that of Germany, France and the UK? Does that make any sense? At current exchange rates US output is valued no more than 10% more than those countries.
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atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed May 28, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 274):
And some people actually acted like it was nothing unusual.

I think it was obvious the spinmeisters in USAF were working overtime.
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Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 2:15 am



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 276):
I think it was obvious the spinmeisters in USAF were working overtime.

Loren Thompson points out some interesting facts that are going to be difficult to spin.

The KC-45 is 27 percent heavier then the KC-767 and burns 2000 pounds of fuel per hour more then the KC-767. How can the air force say they are going to cost about the same to operate?

EADS has not even broken ground yet on the assembly line that is supposed to put the tanker together. Boeing is going to build KC-767s on the same assembly line that has been producing hundreds of the same airframe for years. How can the air force say that there is less risk in the EADS tanker?

It's really an interesting read. The more you dig into this deal the worse it looks.
 
redflyer
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 275):
When the dollar was at its highest, US per head output was valued over 50% more than that of Germany, France and the UK? Does that make any sense?

Of course it makes sense. But I think that valuation factor works only in the long term, not short term, which is where the day-to-day fluctuations have been occurring. I'm not disputing anything you're saying, but the Dollar has lost around 15% against the Euro just in the past several months. That is a short term movement that, IMO, has little bearing on per-head output valuation.

Quoting Alien (Reply 277):
Loren Thompson points out some interesting facts that are going to be difficult to spin.

The KC-45 is 27 percent heavier then the KC-767 and burns 2000 pounds of fuel per hour more then the KC-767. How can the air force say they are going to cost about the same to operate?

EADS has not even broken ground yet on the assembly line that is supposed to put the tanker together. Boeing is going to build KC-767s on the same assembly line that has been producing hundreds of the same airframe for years. How can the air force say that there is less risk in the EADS tanker?

What Lauren Thompson is saying is nothing more than a rehash of what many others have already stated over the past few months since the award was announced. That's why I find it odd that he's suddenly making these statements - and authoritatively no less. He's come to the table a little late, if you ask me.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 4:21 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 278):
That's why I find it odd that he's suddenly making these statements - and authoritatively no less.

He claims that his earlier statements where based on what he was told by the Air Force. He also says that he has since asked for proof or corroborating information from the Air Force and they have not given him any. Who knows, the fact remains as you say, he is now making assertions that many others have brought up in the past as well. Perhaps he's jumping on the bandwagon because he sees the writing on the wall.

Leeham is now saying that maybe they should increase the numbers and go for a split buy. I think that's crazy because at the end of the day they really have much more important spending priorities than replacing tankers that are expected to be able to last well past 2020.
 
atmx2000
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 4:23 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 278):
Of course it makes sense. But I think that valuation factor works only in the long term, not short term, which is where the day-to-day fluctuations have been occurring. I'm not disputing anything you're saying, but the Dollar has lost around 15% against the Euro just in the past several months. That is a short term movement that, IMO, has little bearing on per-head output valuation.

Er, actually it didn't make any sense. Well over one half of that overvaluation was due to a dollar bubble that started in 1997 in the aftermath of the Asian financial crisis and at the beginning of the dot.com bubble, reached its peak in 2000-2001 and deflated by 2003-2004. The remainder of the overvaluation seems to be a side effect of WWII.

As for short term versus long term, I would suggest that the trade deficit with Europe is an indicator that the currency has been overvalued over the long term. Just because the correction has been relatively rapid doesn't mean it isn't fundamentally being driven by output valuation.
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bhmbaglock
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 12:12 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 277):
EADS has not even broken ground yet on the assembly line that is supposed to put the tanker together.

You make some good points, but blaming NG/EADS for a delay in construction 100% attributable to the Boeing protest is ridiculous.
Where are all of my respected members going?
 
Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Thu May 29, 2008 1:26 pm



Quoting BHMBAGLOCK (Reply 281):
but blaming NG/EADS for a delay in construction

My bad, that is not what I meant. Delays have nothing to do with them not even having the assembly line up and running. The fact remains that Boeing has a warm assembly line and the workers on the line have experience building literally hundreds of the air frame. That cannot be said about EADS in Alabama.
 
trex8
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 31, 2008 1:13 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 282):
The fact remains that Boeing has a warm assembly line and the workers on the line have experience building literally hundreds of the air frame.

don't the 767s have to be sent from WA to KS to be rebuilt as tankers??
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 31, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 272):
Anyway here are some interest comments from Loren Thompson



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 283):
don't the 767s have to be sent from WA to KS to be rebuilt as tankers??

The plan is to build the basic plane to specifications required, then fly to KS to get mission hardware installed. So not a full conversion from a civilian airframe, but more than just sticking on a boom and some decals.
 
gsosbee
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 31, 2008 2:22 am



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 283):
The fact remains that Boeing has a warm assembly line and the workers on the line have experience building literally hundreds of the air frame.

Boeing would be better served to move those workers to the 787 line (and open a second one.)
Remember, the 767 line is winding down.

But then maybe Boeing has resigned itself to the fact that if they somehow get the KC-45A, it will be the last contract they get from the Air Force in a long time. Their anti-Air Force comments have bitten deep at the Air Force side of the puzzle palace. IMHO they should have protested and kept their mouths shut except behind closed doors.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 31, 2008 2:50 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 285):

But then maybe Boeing has resigned itself to the fact that if they somehow get the KC-45A, it will be the last contract they get from the Air Force in a long time. Their anti-Air Force comments have bitten deep at the Air Force side of the puzzle palace. IMHO they should have protested and kept their mouths shut except behind closed doors.

I do not see how that can happen, how would the Air Force boycote Boeing? The appeals process is there for a reason and I do not blame Boeing for using it. where will the USAF get their aircraft, from Europe, Russia, China, I do not think the American People would swllow that for long, or the GAO and congress either.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
gsosbee
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sat May 31, 2008 2:18 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 286):
I do not see how that can happen, how would the Air Force boycote Boeing? The appeals process is there for a reason and I do not blame Boeing for using it. where will the USAF get their aircraft, from Europe, Russia, China, I do not think the American People would swllow that for long, or the GAO and congress either.

I indicated that I didn't blame Boeing either. Just the public bashing that has been going on ever since. It has not made them very popular, and has raised all kinds of issues like if they have a solid case, why the build-up? The logical answer to that question is their case is not all that solid.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Sun Jun 01, 2008 2:23 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 287):
Just the public bashing that has been going on ever since. It has not made them very popular, and has raised all kinds of issues like if they have a solid case

I think much of the bashing of Boeing has been from across the pond, I have not seen much from this side. I understand your point, but I do not like influence peddling and this case smells of it. I know, I know, that is how it is done.
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Flighty
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Mon Jun 02, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting Klaus (Reply 269):
EADS is most probably ready to eat up even a loss to a certain degree just to get a foot in the door with the USAF.

If the KC-45 project should turn out to be a satisfying deal for the american side, it could allow EADS to establish itself as a regular bidder for US military projects with a lot less hysteria than we're seeing here and now. That could be worth taking a greater currency risk than for a regular order.

And as said above, Aibus/EADS is usually hedging against adverse currency fluctuations. But of course there are limits to that.

This is what I think as well. Boeing is in this game to sell aircraft at a profit. Airbus is in it for totally different reasons. They just want to become a competitor in America's extremely large military procurement system. And bizarrely, there are 17th century xenophobes here who argue that EADS should not have that right. Which is the most insane thing anybody has said in many years.

Of course EADS should have the right to enter our military market. The things Boeing is trying to say are un-American and disturbingly big-brotherish. If anything, they are East German type arguments. We must only allow ourselves to use Trabants, because Trabants serve our nationalist grandeur, and other makes (the international market) must be ignored -- not beaten, just ignored. Not that a 767 is a Trabant, but neither is it the only worthwhile competitor. The 330 must be allowed to compete, or we have lost some of our most sacred American principles. Plus, consider the backlash (Boeing!!! get a clue).
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue Jun 03, 2008 1:51 am

[quote=Flighty,reply=289]Airbus is in it for totally different reasons. They just want to become a competitor in America's extremely large military procurement system[/


Profit, is the name of the game, for EADS and Boeing. At the end of the day for EADS, it is all about profit, nothing noble, just money.
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Decromin
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:14 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 290):

Profit, is the name of the game, for EADS and Boeing. At the end of the day for EADS, it is all about profit, nothing noble, just money.

Aye - welcome to Capitalism. I hope you enjoy your stay.

More seriously, whilst the companies exist to make profits, I'd like to think that the engineers and other staff within both companies actually do want to make the best products they possibly can. The fact that people are arguing over minutia rather than big issues shows how far both companies products have come over the years.
 
baroque
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Tue Jun 03, 2008 4:23 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 289):
Not that a 767 is a Trabant, but neither is it the only worthwhile competitor.

Now every time I get on a Qantas 767, I will have to check to see where the engine is.  bigthumbsup 
 
Klaus
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:43 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 290):
Profit, is the name of the game, for EADS and Boeing. At the end of the day for EADS, it is all about profit, nothing noble, just money.

Of course – but sometimes it pays to invest in the short run to gain profits in the long run.
 
Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:49 am



Quoting Klaus (Reply 293):
but sometimes it pays to invest in the short run to gain profits in the long run.

Perhaps EADS should invest more in China rather then the US. Bigger market, less regulation, no home grown competition. Why stop at an A320 assembly line.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:59 am



Quoting Decromin (Reply 291):
I'd like to think that the engineers and other staff within both companies actually do want to make the best products they possibly can

I would certainly agree with that.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
trex8
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:54 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 294):
less regulation

obviously not a student of the CCPs policies
 
Alien
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:10 am



Quoting Trex8 (Reply 296):

It was tongue in cheek.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:36 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 294):
Why stop at an A320 assembly line.

Who says they will?
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Boeing Appeal Of KC-45A Award

Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:55 pm



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 298):


Quoting Alien (Reply 294):
Why stop at an A320 assembly line.

Who says they will?

I hope you are not advocating such a thing, sending jobs hither and yon. what are we now citizens of the global village where we just send peoples jobs anywhere in search of a buck? I do not believe in such foolishness. read the papers and watch TV and see how wonderfully all this bull is playing out. I love this swallowing of this line handed out by the business interests and politicians and meanwhile everyones standard of living is falling (normal people) Food and fuel problems looming all over and we should send jobs elsewhere after they are created and subsidized by taxpayers in the home countries. Naive to the maximum.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
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