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AirRyan
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NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:16 am

I think it speaks volumes to have the USAF ask the GAO to dimiss the bulk of Boeing's protests - and I strongly concurr with the asertion that the time for Boeing to raised a fuss on the issues that did was before the award.

Quote:
WASHINGTON, March 26 (Reuters) - The U.S. Air Force and Northrop Grumman Corp on Wednesday filed separate requests to dismiss parts of a Boeing Co protest against a $35 billion aerial tanker program won by Northrop last month.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7414447

Quote:
"Much of what Boeing complains about was contained in the KC-X request for proposals and should have been questioned, and even perhaps protested, before the submittal of Boeing's final bid," said Northrop spokesman Randy Belote.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2632034420080326
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):

If the Air Force is trying to cover their backsides, it only makes sense for them to join the company they awarded the contract, to ask the GAO to dismiss Boeings appeal.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
halls120
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting AirRyan (Thread starter):
I think it speaks volumes to have the USAF ask the GAO to dimiss the bulk of Boeing's protests - and I strongly concurr with the asertion that the time for Boeing to raised a fuss on the issues that did was before the award.

I think it speaks volumes to the Air Force's nervousness that they may lose the appeal.

If they are so sure that they did nothing wrong, why not let the GAO affirm it?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
AirRyan
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 3:03 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
If they are so sure that they did nothing wrong, why not let the GAO affirm it?

Well I'm sure CSAR-X still resonates loudly within the USAF decision makers, especially since they haven't even been able to award the bid yet (Oct. 2008 is now the est. date last I read,) but I think their coming form the perspective that they want the GAO to play their role but also reiterate that Boeing has little to no grounds on which to appeal and they despirately want to get their new tankers in their fleets as soon as possible.
 
Alien
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 4:02 am

If the Air Force and NG are so confident of the selection process why are they trying to avoid some oversight?
 
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zeke
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:30 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 4):
If the Air Force and NG are so confident of the selection process why are they trying to avoid some oversight?

The USAF and NG have every right to ask the GAO to dismiss the protest, just like Boeing have every right to protest, it is due process.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:10 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
The USAF and NG have every right to ask the GAO to dismiss the protest, just like Boeing have every right to protest, it is due process.

I strongly agree that NG has the rights to ask the GAO to dismiss the Boeing protest. But when the USAF does it, it smells like there is a skunk in the room.

The smart thing USAF should have done was to stand on the sidelines, let Boeing file their protest, NG file a request to dismiss it, and let the GAO do what they need to do.

This LOOKS like (I'm not saying it is.....yet) the USAF is hiding something.
 
GDB
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:26 am

This contested order apart, but bearing in mind what seems to happen after EVERY choice in procurement these days, could it be said that if you put your ear to the Pentagon, you can hear a primal scream of frustration from within?

Maybe they need to do a short press release something like;

We are tasked with choosing vital equipment for our forces-who are engaged heavily around the world, what we are NOT here to do, is help some f*****g corporate bottom lines.
Put up, or shut up.'
 
Arniepie
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest.

Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:13 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
This LOOKS like (I'm not saying it is.....yet) the USAF is hiding something.

Sorry, but that is pure innuendo and adds nothing to the discussion.
Like said before, NG has every right to ask for a dismissal and frankly, so does the USAF(being also one of the parties involved), they made their choice when they went for NG's KC-145 and believe in their reasons to do so.
They don't like waiting forever to get their new equipment and believe that filling for a dismissal is the quickest way to speed up this process.

Whether or not its a good Idea for the USAF to get involved in all this legal mumbo-jumbo is an all other matter, maybe
it will backfire but they obviously believe this is the way to go.
[edit post]
 
Jackonicko
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:03 am

The USAF is confident that it has chosen the best aircraft on grounds of capability and cost, and that Boeing's appeal is groundless, so it does not want politicking to delay the procurement.

With CSAR it was clear from the selection that many in the senior leadership did not have that same confidence, and were therefore more sanguine about the appeals.
 
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zeke
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:28 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

The smart thing USAF should have done was to stand on the sidelines, let Boeing file their protest, NG file a request to dismiss it, and let the GAO do what they need to do.

The USAF has many rights, including asking NG to continue development regardless of the GAO protest, it has not done this.

I think the USAF is sick and tired of the media blitz by Boeing and their paid bloggers, paid lobbyist trying to tell them what is best for their operations.

The USAF wrote a RFP/SRD based up what it thought was important, it did an evaluation on what it thought was important, and came out with a clear winner.

Now we have a bidder trying to tell the customer it knows better than they do.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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CV990A
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:46 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
If they are so sure that they did nothing wrong, why not let the GAO affirm it?



Quoting Alien (Reply 4):
If the Air Force and NG are so confident of the selection process why are they trying to avoid some oversight?

I wonder if the USAF is afraid members of Congress will force the overturn of the award and give the award to the "US" company, and by asking the GAO to drop the protest, they can move faster (as fast as a huge DoD procurement can move) in getting the KC-45 to a point where it wouldn't be cost-effective to overturn the award.
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checksixx
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:54 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
Now we have a bidder trying to tell the customer it knows better than they do.

Bingo! Thats why this whole protest process is flawed. They chose, that should be then end of it.
 
halls120
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 5):
The USAF and NG have every right to ask the GAO to dismiss the protest, just like Boeing have every right to protest, it is due process.

I strongly agree that NG has the rights to ask the GAO to dismiss the Boeing protest. But when the USAF does it, it smells like there is a skunk in the room.

Bingo. the Air Force should have let NG appeal. All they do in responding to the Boeing appeal is make themselves look guilty.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
The smart thing USAF should have done was to stand on the sidelines, let Boeing file their protest, NG file a request to dismiss it, and let the GAO do what they need to do

 checkmark 
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
I think the USAF is sick and tired of the media blitz by Boeing and their paid bloggers, paid lobbyist trying to tell them what is best for their operations.

How about Boeing is protesting because of a bought and paid for Senator screwed with the process?
 
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scbriml
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 2:04 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
All they do in responding to the Boeing appeal is make themselves look guilty.

It seems all they're doing is asking the GAO to dismiss some parts of Boeing's protest and allow the rest to be processed as per normal. I'm not sure how this equates to the AF making themselves look guilty.

http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSN2645592520080326

Quote:
Spokeswoman Lt. Col. Jennifer Cassidy said the Air Force had filed the motion for partial summary dismissal of the Boeing protest, but declined to give any details.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/feedarticle?id=7414447

Quote:
Air Force documents showed that Northrop and Boeing got similar scores on five key evaluation areas, including mission capability, but evaluators considered the Northrop plane advantageous in four of the five areas, which resulted in it winning the bid.

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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starrion
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:28 pm



Quoting CV990A (Reply 11):
I wonder if the USAF is afraid members of Congress will force the overturn of the award and give the award to the "US" company, and by asking the GAO to drop the protest, they can move faster (as fast as a huge DoD procurement can move) in getting the KC-45 to a point where it wouldn't be cost-effective to overturn the award.

I didn't think Congress could overturn the selection. If the award is not overturned, I think the only thing Congress could do would be to not supply any funds for the KC-45.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
Venus6971
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 8:25 pm

Being an USAF retiree it seems like everytime my old service trys to influence things outside the military realm they really step into it and make a mess. This is not their job, aerospace supremecy and killing people is and taking orders from the Civilian NAtional Command authority. The USAF has no business telling the GAO what they can and cannot do.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
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moo
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:51 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):

If they are so sure that they did nothing wrong, why not let the GAO affirm it?



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
This LOOKS like (I'm not saying it is.....yet) the USAF is hiding something.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
Bingo. the Air Force should have let NG appeal. All they do in responding to the Boeing appeal is make themselves look guilty.

Why shouldn't the USAF stand front and center behind the choice they made? Why does that 'make them look guilty'? In what possible way does it make it look as though they are 'hiding something'?

As much as anyone here, the USAF has over $200million at stake, as that is the budget they put aside to fight appeals to the KC-45 contract. $200million of their budget. If putting forward a relatively cheap filing for dismissal saves them significant bucks, what's the problem?

All this looks like to me is the USAF saying to Boeing 'we don't want your "solution", we made our choice'. I don't see where 'guilt' comes into it - the USAF *has* to affirm their decision in the matter, precisely as not doing so would make them look 'guilty'.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:52 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
think the USAF is sick and tired of the media blitz by Boeing and their paid bloggers, paid lobbyist trying to tell them what is best for their operations

Bingo again, that is the basis of this whole mess, was there undue, or outside interests such as lobbyists, congressional interference? We have a presidential cannidate here directly tied to EADS or Airbus according to news sources in the US. The question we are all waiting to be answered is, was it fair or was it not? Did the Air Force buckle under pressure or just change the requirements at the last minute making a fair competition unfair. Were there a couple of Generals looking for the big payoff after retirement? Let us not forget the bottom line, Money!
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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moo
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:54 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 17):
The USAF has no business telling the GAO what they can and cannot do.

By that logic, surely the GAO has no business telling the USAF what they should choose and how they should choose? The GAOs strengths is not in what equipment the military want.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 18):
All this looks like to me is the USAF saying to Boeing 'we don't want your "solution", we made our choice'. I don't see where 'guilt' comes into it - the USAF *has* to affirm their decision in the matter, precisely as not doing so would make them look 'guilty'.

In this country, thank goodness the Air Force has to answer to the civilian authorities, the GAO and congress. Their choice is now under civilian review, imagine if they could do as they wanted.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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USAF336TFS
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:21 pm

Ain't going to happen. The GAO will not dismiss the protest. Period. Regardless the side you're on, Boeing's protest points are legitimate issues, and need to be resolved if the selection criteria and process are to be validated.

IF and that is a huge "if", Boeing can successfully prove that the proverbial goal post was getting moved, then the GAO has a responsibility to act.
336th Tactical Fighter Squadron, 4th Fighter Wing, Seymour Johnson AFB
 
Ken777
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:59 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 20):
surely the GAO has no business telling the USAF what they should choose and how they should choose?

Unfortunately the USAF cannot act independently of civilian oversight. Like every other part of the federal government they are subject to this oversight and the GAO is going to carry out an independent investigation. That's how it works and the USAF *should* have carried out the entire process in a manner that would sail through a GOA investigation without a problem. Just because Boeing has not filed a protest over a lost bid for 30 years didn't mean they wouldn't file one over the tanker decision.

A key factor here is "appearance". Just as a judge or auditor must not only be independent, but *appear* to be independent the USAF needs to have an *appearance* of acting properly. The request from the USAF to the GAO does maintain that standard of appearance. They could have just as easily presented their case/arguments within the investigation.

If, in the end, the USAF is going to gain acceptance throughout Congress of the decision and the need to fund the program they should focus more on working closely with the GAO and not trying to avoid certain aspects of the investigation.
 
halls120
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Fri Mar 28, 2008 11:46 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
Unfortunately the USAF cannot act independently of civilian oversight.

"unfortunately?"

Are you suggesting the Air Force should not be subjected to civilian oversight?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
rwessel
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 12:14 am

While I've never been involved in a bid protest like this, I assume the basic process is similar to a legal action in front of a judge.

Asking for dismissal, or summary judgment, on one or more points is quite common, and will only be granted if the point in question is obviously correct, incorrect or irrelevant, to the point where the judge feels there's no actual point in discussing it further. If there's any real dispute, then summary judgment will not be granted.

So all that's happening is the NG and the USAF are saying, let's discard Boeing's point #14 because it's so flatly incorrect or irrelevant. Just thing how the already interminable process would be dragged out if both sides could demand a full investigation and discussion of any darn thing they felt like, whether or not it was relevant.

IOW, if the hypothetical point 14 was that General X (who has something to do with the selection process) was in the pay of EADS (which can trivially be determined to be false, or at least would be assumed to be false without proof to the contrary), or that General Y was secretly a cross dresser (which is irrelevant), the point would be dismissed. OTOH if there were large unexplained deposits in General X's bank account, or there was evidence that General Y was being blackmailed, then the point would not be dismissed.

In short, this is just the process of pruning away the obviously meaningless stuff. Of course more than one lawsuit (or defense against) has been pruned out of existence that way.
 
AirRyan
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:00 am



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 17):
This is not their job, aerospace supremecy and killing people is and taking orders from the Civilian NAtional Command authority. The USAF has no business telling the GAO what they can and cannot do.

As well do the politicans have no business in trying to tell the USAF which aircraft is better for their needs...
 
pygmalion
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:20 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):


Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 17):
This is not their job, aerospace supremecy and killing people is and taking orders from the Civilian NAtional Command authority. The USAF has no business telling the GAO what they can and cannot do.

As well do the politicans have no business in trying to tell the USAF which aircraft is better for their needs...

But politicians, and the GAO as their enforcement arm, absolutely can ensure that the public governmental (not private) RFP and bid selection was done clearly in accordance with the terms and conditions and that no selection criteria was used that was not disclosed to all parties. This is no different than bidding on building a freeway overpass... all selection criteria must be disclosed and the bids evaluated ONLY on thoe terms. Let the protest process run its course. Boeing is allowed to protest and NG/EADS would also have been allowed to do so. All parties are following the allowed for legal process.

As I said, let the process run its course. I think Boeing has legitimate concerns... lets see if the judge (GAO) agrees... or not...
 
pygmalion
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:22 am



Quoting AirRyan (Reply 26):
As well do the politicans have no business in trying to tell the USAF which aircraft is better for their needs...

since the USAF is fully funded by the congress and is under the control of a civilian comander in chief... they probably do have "business" to do so
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:41 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
I strongly agree that NG has the rights to ask the GAO to dismiss the Boeing protest.



Quoting ArniePie (Reply 8):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
This LOOKS like (I'm not saying it is.....yet) the USAF is hiding something.

Sorry, but that is pure innuendo and adds nothing to the discussion.
Like said before, NG has every right to ask for a dismissal and frankly, so does the USAF

No one here has questioned NG's rights to ask for dismissal. But, when the USAF does it, and there are questions as to to process (and the tax payers money involved), the USAF better present a neutral position between the contract protest, and the awarded contractor requerst for dismissal.

In the GAO review process, the USAF will have their chance to defend their selection, and the reasons why they did. Filing a request for dismissal, and publicising it, always leaves people to believe there is something to hide here.

So, now the GAO needs to look deeper.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

The smart thing USAF should have done was to stand on the sidelines, let Boeing file their protest, NG file a request to dismiss it, and let the GAO do what they need to do.

The USAF has many rights, including asking NG to continue development regardless of the GAO protest, it has not done this.

Incorrect, by law, the USAF cannot ask NG to continue on with the contractual dates and requirements. The development clock stops, as far as any government agency is concerned. NG can proceed on their own, at their own expense. But any rewards for completing any phases early will be time adjusted, so that NG does not receive time credit for proceeding at their own expense during the protest period.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
The USAF wrote a RFP/SRD based up what it thought was important, it did an evaluation on what it thought was important, and came out with a clear winner.



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
Now we have a bidder trying to tell the customer it knows better than they do.

Bingo! Thats why this whole protest process is flawed. They chose, that should be then end of it.

In the 1940s and 1950s (into the early 1960s), contractors submitted designs based on government specs. A design was selected and prototypes were built and flown. That process was similar to todays RFP selection process, but there are also major differences. In those processes we ended up with aircraft like the B-52, KC-135 (initially selected as the "interium" design), F-4, F-111, F-14, and F-15. Then in the 1970s we went through a design process, and selected two designs for a fly off. These were the A-10 vs. A-9, F-16 vs. F-17, C-14 vs. C-15 (neither of these ever went into production), F-22 vs. F-23. That was an expensive process, but we really did end up with the best product, for what we wanted to do.

We could have had a fly off in the KC-X program, using both the KC-30B (from the RAAF) and the KC-767A or J (from Italy or Japan). Neither of these tankers are exactly like what the USAF wants or needs, but they could have both been close enough for a "Y" designated airpalne to get an actual feel of what the airplanes actually offer.

Instead we went to a paper "fly off", that is so inacturate the whole process is distrubing.

Having a fly off between the Italian and Australian tankers (leased from those countries) would clearly demonstrate advantages and disadvantages of each design, and eliminate the need for SDD aircraft.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
All they do in responding to the Boeing appeal is make themselves look guilty.

It seems all they're doing is asking the GAO to dismiss some parts of Boeing's protest and allow the rest to be processed as per normal. I'm not sure how this equates to the AF making themselves look guilty.



Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
Quote:
Spokeswoman Lt. Col. Jennifer Cassidy said the Air Force had filed the motion for partial summary dismissal of the Boeing protest, but declined to give any details.

Now the USAF is playing politics (and they are not very good at it, either). We all remember the Florida "recount" when (then) Vice President AlGore wanted to decide the 2000 Presidential election between him and (then) Govornor George W. Bush. Gore only wanted "selected" counties counted, and no military absentee votes counted at all.

If you ask for a recount, recount everything.

If you ask the GAO to dismiss the protest, dismiss the entire protest, not selected parts of it.

Quoting Scbriml (Reply 15):
Quote:
Air Force documents showed that Northrop and Boeing got similar scores on five key evaluation areas, including mission capability, but evaluators considered the Northrop plane advantageous in four of the five areas, which resulted in it winning the bid.

???? WTF kind of double talk is that? "We show both airplanes were equil in 5 catagories, but this airplane scored higher in 4 of the 5".

Thats what you get when you send a PR person out with just talking points, and no first hand knowledge of either proposal.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 17):
Being an USAF retiree it seems like everytime my old service trys to influence things outside the military realm they really step into it and make a mess. This is not their job, aerospace supremecy and killing people is and taking orders from the Civilian NAtional Command authority. The USAF has no business telling the GAO what they can and cannot do.

I'm with you, Brother.
 
astuteman
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:44 am



Quoting USAF336TFS (Reply 22):
Ain't going to happen. The GAO will not dismiss the protest. Period. Regardless the side you're on, Boeing's protest points are legitimate issues

Presumably we'll find out a some stage whether they are, or not.

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 27):
lets see if the judge (GAO) agrees... or not...

 checkmark 

Regards
 
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zeke
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:42 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Incorrect, by law, the USAF cannot ask NG to continue on with the contractual dates and requirements. The development clock stops, as far as any government agency is concerned. NG can proceed on their own, at their own expense. But any rewards for completing any phases early will be time adjusted, so that NG does not receive time credit for proceeding at their own expense during the protest period.

That is not true, if the USAF thinks it has a pressing need for the equipment, it could continue with the selection regardless of a GAO protest.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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moo
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:24 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
In this country, thank goodness the Air Force has to answer to the civilian authorities, the GAO and congress. Their choice is now under civilian review, imagine if they could do as they wanted.



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 23):
Unfortunately the USAF cannot act independently of civilian oversight.

There is an order of magnitude of difference between having general civilian oversight of the military, and having a civilian body actually telling the military how to do its job - does anyone here disagree that the military is the best body to make the choice when it comes to what tools they need to do their job? Again I ask the question why shouldn't they stand front and center behind the choice they made?

With that in mind, I don't see how any of these comments are particularly valid -

Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 1):

If the Air Force is trying to cover their backsides



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):

I think it speaks volumes to the Air Force's nervousness that they may lose the appeal.

If they are so sure that they did nothing wrong, why not let the GAO affirm it?



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):

This LOOKS like (I'm not saying it is.....yet) the USAF is hiding something.



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 13):
All they do in responding to the Boeing appeal is make themselves look guilty.

 
PC12Fan
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:21 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 9):
The USAF is confident that it has chosen the best aircraft on grounds of capability and cost, and that Boeing's appeal is groundless

Not if in fact the requirements were changed at the last minute.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 14):
How about Boeing is protesting because of a bought and paid for Senator screwed with the process?

 checkmark 

If Boeing lost this thing fair and square then move on. Unfortunately, it's not that simple anymore. Rule of the day with these contracts now is - you lose, you sue.

Sad.
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 1:32 pm



Quoting Moo (Reply 32):
does anyone here disagree that the military is the best body to make the choice when it comes to what tools they need to do their job?

No, I don't disagree with that, but if the choice was made just get gainfully employ someone after their military retirement, then the cilivians need to step in and change the selection, and maybe drag a few people into court.
 
checksixx
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 2:25 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
In this country, thank goodness the Air Force has to answer to the civilian authorities, the GAO and congress. Their choice is now under civilian review, imagine if they could do as they wanted.

Wow...just imagine that! All of our services getting the equipment they need to do the job, all working and high quality....thank goodness we have those you listed to prevent such things!

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
Are you suggesting the Air Force should not be subjected to civilian oversight?

Not when the civilians are telling the services what they need and don't need. I'm sure he wasn't saying it as not being accountable for what is spent, but I can tell you that most all civilians have no clue what the services need or don't need.

Quoting Pygmalion (Reply 27):
But politicians, and the GAO as their enforcement arm, absolutely can ensure that the public governmental (not private) RFP and bid selection was done clearly in accordance with the terms and conditions and that no selection criteria was used that was not disclosed to all parties. This is no different than bidding on building a freeway overpass... all selection criteria must be disclosed and the bids evaluated ONLY on thoe terms.

Wrong...going above an beyond the requirements can certainly be taken into account. Boeing's answer: present an aircraft that can barely do everything set forth in the requirements. EADS/Northrops answer: present an aircraft that meets all those criteria and has additional capabilities. That sounds like the best value for my money.
 
TropicBird
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:06 pm

What I am waiting to come out of this protest is whom in the USAF discouraged Boeing from offering the 777? That person or persons may have violated the federal acquisitions regulations in doing so as it would have been inappropriate for someone on the 'inside' to tell that to Boeing. According to Boeing, that information turned out to be incorrect - they were misled and that allowed NG/EADS to win.

Seems anyway you look at it, this program is messed up again as the federal government will need to look into what is behind this accusation.
 
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EPA001
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:35 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 36):
What I am waiting to come out of this protest is whom in the USAF discouraged Boeing from offering the 777? That person or persons may have violated the federal acquisitions regulations in doing so as it would have been inappropriate for someone on the 'inside' to tell that to Boeing. According to Boeing, that information turned out to be incorrect - they were misled and that allowed NG/EADS to win.

Please, not the issue with the possible 777 again. And not the issue with "Boeing were lead to believe not to present the B777". They know damn well that was never an option after knowing the requirements.And they have no proof to back-up their claimes. And they know that both parties (Boeing and NG-EADS) were equally informed by the USAF about the content of the bid.

That plane, the B777, no matter how good it is (and no matter how much I like it personally), would not meet or exceed all objectives as specified in the RFP. That is what counts here. The balanced airfield runway performance for aborting take-off at MTOW on a 7,000 ft runway comes to mind here as one of the many issues where this plane would fail the objectives as stated in the bid. Many of the issues why the B777 would not qualify according to the parameters defined in the bid can be read in the many posts here on a-net in different threads about this subject.

And is a far more expensive plane and as a tanker version certainly not available in the timeframe which the USAF has defined in the bid. Hence, it is not even designed yet as a tanker!!! Remember 4 frames ready to the USAF in 2010? It is even highly unlikely (personally I would say impossible) that Boeing at that time could have had the 4 frames of the still to be completely designed B767-AT Frankentanker ready for presentation to the USAF!

Please read all the threads here on A-net thoroughly and then you will know why the B777 would not qualify according to the parameters set by the USAF for the RFP. Please read it in this context. As a civilian aircraft the B777 probably beats the A330 as a whole, except on the shorter and medium range routes where you also might not need the extra capabilities of the B777 and you pay the penalty of the extra weight on these short stretches. As a tanker, it is a totally different story in this context. There it would not qualify and would overall be scoring lower points then both the B767-AT and the KC-45 based on the Airbus A330.
 
Ken777
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest.

Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:58 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
Are you suggesting the Air Force should not be subjected to civilian oversight?

There was just a wee bit of sarcasm in that comment. I don't think there are many flag rank officers that enjoy civilian oversight. Personally I prefer the oversight and even enjoy it when knowledgeable politicians (yes, there are a few) keep the flags honest.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
In this country, thank goodness the Air Force has to answer to the civilian authorities, the GAO and congress. Their choice is now under civilian review, imagine if they could do as they wanted.

Wow...just imagine that! All of our services getting the equipment they need to do the job, all working and high quality....thank goodness we have those you listed to prevent such things!

And the military has a long history of spending major funds on projects that did't work out. As sad as it is there are a lot of times when the military has to settle for a Chevy instead of a Caddie and it is the politicians that need to tell them to settle for the Chevy because they won't do it on their own.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):


Not when the civilians are telling the services what they need and don't need. I'm sure he wasn't saying it as not being accountable for what is spent, but I can tell you that most all civilians have no clue what the services need or don't need.

And the military doesn't have a clue as to the other demands on the Federal budget. As strange as it may seem there are other areas then need funds, like Social Security, Medicare, education, etc. It's the civilians job to establish the priorities and allocate the funds. Personally I would rather the Caddie grade acquisitions made in the area of new fighters, with the Chevy for a tanker.
 
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glideslope
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:09 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 2):
I think it speaks volumes to the Air Force's nervousness that they may lose the appeal.

BINGO.  checkmark 
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
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par13del
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:33 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 9):
The USAF is confident that it has chosen the best aircraft on grounds of capability and cost, and that Boeing's appeal is groundless, so it does not want politicking to delay the procurement



Quoting Zeke (Reply 10):
The USAF wrote a RFP/SRD based up what it thought was important, it did an evaluation on what it thought was important, and came out with a clear winner.

Is this the same USAF who awarded the first contract to Boeing, which was overturned, or the first contract to Boeing for the CSARX a/c, if anything, everyone is within their rights to question the ability of the UASF to properly select its equipment.
 
magyar
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:53 pm

Just out of curiosity. Anybody has a decent idea why the USAF would favour a foreign (or partly foreign)
company over a US based one? I mean I can see the opposity or to be even-handed, but to tilt the field
FOR Airbus-NG just does not add up. Sorry.
 
halls120
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:06 pm



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
Quoting Halls120 (Reply 24):
Are you suggesting the Air Force should not be subjected to civilian oversight?

There was just a wee bit of sarcasm in that comment. I don't think there are many flag rank officers that enjoy civilian oversight. Personally I prefer the oversight and even enjoy it when knowledgeable politicians (yes, there are a few) keep the flags honest.

The military hates civilian oversight. Problem is, they need it. One only needs to look at the debacle that is the Coast Guard's Deepwater program for an excellent example.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:08 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 35):


Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 21):
In this country, thank goodness the Air Force has to answer to the civilian authorities, the GAO and congress. Their choice is now under civilian review, imagine if they could do as they wanted.

Wow...just imagine that! All of our services getting the equipment they need to do the job, all working and high quality....thank goodness we have those you listed to prevent such things!

All I can say is that the system has worked well enough for all these years for our military, this mess we now find ourselves discussing is what worries me, built in curruption, influence peddling, we shall have to wait and see what happens, let us hope that the civilian review works, let us hope the decision was honest, I do know that anyone who thinks that we should give the military any relief from civilian control anywhere is a fool and is a danger to our freedom.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
TropicBird
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:17 pm



Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
Please, not the issue with the possible 777 again. And not the issue with "Boeing were lead to believe not to present the B777". They know damn well that was never an option after knowing the requirements.And they have no proof to back-up their claimes. And they know that both parties (Boeing and NG-EADS) were equally informed by the USAF about the content of the bid.

Yes...the 777 issue again and again until it gets resolved. The 767, A330, 787, A340, 777, and 747 were all welcomed and included in the RFP according to the the USAF as documented below. This decision was based on the Rand AoA Executive Summary which included ALL the above aircraft.

"The further defined basing in the RFP is necessary to allow for the full range of aircraft types recommended in the Rand Analysis of Alternatives."

Source of the above quote is from the USAF letter linked below...see the last page paragraph (g).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABPub/2008/03/05/2004263239.pdf


The link for the Rand Analysis of Alternatives is below....see page 12 of the study titled "Cost-Effectivness of Alternatives"

http://www.rand.org/pubs/monographs/2006/RAND_MG495.pdf

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
That plane, the B777, no matter how good it is (and no matter how much I like it personally), would not meet or exceed all objectives as specified in the RFP. That is what counts here. The balanced airfield runway performance for aborting take-off at MTOW on a 7,000 ft runway comes to mind here as one of the many issues where this plane would fail the objectives as stated in the bid.

The key word here is objective and not threshold. If MTOW on a 7000 ft was an "objective" then it was a "goal" and not a requirement as that would instead be a "threshold" (minimum) item and a required standard.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
And is a far more expensive plane and as a tanker version certainly not available in the timeframe which the USAF has defined in the bid. Hence, it is not even designed yet as a tanker!!!

A misconception here is that the USAF required that the KC-X candidate platforms be fully tested before contract award. They were not. According to the Rand study (and USAF) even the 787 was a viable candidate.

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
Please read all the threads here on A-net thoroughly and then you will know why the B777 would not qualify according to the parameters set by the USAF for the RFP.

I have read all the threads on the 777 issue and I will tell you again that ALL the aircraft in the Rand AoA were candidates for this RFP and the USAF has confirmed this. Personal opinions count here but not in the federal acquisition system. I do not believe the 777 was the best plane for this contract, but I do know it was a viable candidate and it and all the others should have been treated as such. According to Boeing it was not and that is the issue I am questioning.
 
atmx2000
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:12 am



Quoting Magyar (Reply 41):
Just out of curiosity. Anybody has a decent idea why the USAF would favour a foreign (or partly foreign)
company over a US based one? I mean I can see the opposity or to be even-handed, but to tilt the field
FOR Airbus-NG just does not add up. Sorry.

There is no collective USAF mind, decisions are made by individuals who might have other agendas. There are certainly parties who benefit from the selection of a partly foreign sourced aircraft. Whether they were able to influence the criteria for the decision is the question.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 44):
Source of the above quote is from the USAF letter linked below...see the last page paragraph (g).

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/ABP...9.pdf

I read it, and it seems to me that the Air force admits to changing the definitions Par. F&G to include more aircraft for consideration by changing the parking definitions to allow closer wing to wing parking. Their assurance that all would be fair, only words if other influences are at work. Who wrote the note about changing the definitions so as to keep NG in the picture?
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
checksixx
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:03 am



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 43):
I do know that anyone who thinks that we should give the military any relief from civilian control anywhere is a fool and is a danger to our freedom.

You don't know it, you believe it...there is a difference. Same goes for me. I wasn't suggesting that it be free from civilian oversight, but rather poorly I admit, trying to say that most civilians (govt officials) have no clue as to the needs of the services. I'd rather all those decision makers be prior military so they at least have a basic understanding of the impact of their decisions.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 45):
There is no collective USAF mind, decisions are made by individuals who might have other agendas.

Or might not have other agendas. We'll have to wait and see. Maybe the EADS offering was truly the best choice. I'm for the best equipment for the job...all other reasons are second priority.
 
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WarRI1
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:17 am

I understand that point of view, we certainly have to give the military the ability to determine their needs for equipment and we are obligated to provide the best we can give them to defend us. I think we all agree on the civilian control of the military.

Quoting Checksixx (Reply 47):
I wasn't suggesting that it be free from

It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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EPA001
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RE: NG And Usaf Ask GAO To Dismiss Boeing Protest...

Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:52 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 44):
I have read all the threads on the 777 issue and I will tell you again that ALL the aircraft in the Rand AoA were candidates for this RFP and the USAF has confirmed this. Personal opinions count here but not in the federal acquisition system. I do not believe the 777 was the best plane for this contract, but I do know it was a viable candidate and it and all the others should have been treated as such. According to Boeing it was not and that is the issue I am questioning.

Thanks for all the interesting links you have provided. I am sorry if I misunderstood the intentions you had when writing my reply. (You might have guessed that English is not my native language although I think I am doing OK in English).

Quoting EPA001 (Reply 37):
There it would not qualify and would overall be scoring lower points then both the B767-AT and the KC-45 based on the Airbus A330.

I meant with the term "qualify" that the B777, a very fine plane though which I like very much, would not qualify as the winning bid under the parameters stated in the RFP. See my quoted text from the original post. You are also quite right that personal opinions should not matter in the federal acquisition system. The facts about both the B767-AT and the A330-200 based KC-45 should be evaluated for what they are.

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 44):
I do not believe the 777 was the best plane for this contract, but I do know it was a viable candidate and it and all the others should have been treated as such

Apparently, you are thinking in the same direction as I am doing. So no argument here!

Was the B777 not treated as a viable candidate, now that remains to be seen but I personally do not have that impression. I have not seen any proof yet that shows the USAF saying in writing "we will not accept a bid based on the B777, so leave it out and proceed with a bid which is based on a B767 aircraft for this RFP".

My reply was based on the fact that personal opinions do count here on A-net, as you stated. But when personal opinions are blocking a clear view on the factual issues discussed here, as many apparently only Boeing lovers (and therefore no real aviation lovers who should like, or at least respect, all companies in the aviation business) have displayed in several threads here about this issue, by over and over again just not believing plain and verifiable facts, it is sometimes hard to understand why these people keep on repeating already proven incorrect arguments. And it is even sometimes hard to understand why some are here on A-net at all.

Apparently I misread your post as being of that type. So if you felt offended by my reply, I apologise. But I will keep defending (on merits) the USAF decision on selecting the NG-EADS bid over the bid Boeing came up with. Because the USAF in the end chose the better bid for this RFP as the winner. This is as it should be when a competition is held! The best bid should win!

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