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ZBBYLW
Topic Author
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F-104 Glide Ratio?

Sun Apr 06, 2008 6:24 am

Ok strictly for fun I am curious what a F-104's glide ratio is? I know chances are if the engine went out the only gliding a pilot would be doing would be from the time he noticed the engine died to the time he ejected but it is strictly for fun due to its somewhat questionable lift properties. How about what is the best glide speed?

Also what are some of the speeds that they used to use? What would the stall speed have been? A regular approach speed? Anyone with any knowledge of the airplane please enlighten us.
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2H4
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:00 pm

Here's a great resource for F-104 info.

2H4
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LongbowPilot
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:22 pm

I would think like a ballistic meteor?

-Attack
 
ZBBYLW
Topic Author
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:43 pm

Wow 2H4 thank you very much for that link.

Cheers,
Chris
Keep the shinny side up!
 
MissedApproach
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Sun Apr 06, 2008 4:22 pm

Courtesy http://www.916-starfighter.de/ here is all the info regarding speed in an always fun "Snake sez" cartoon. In a no-flaps landing an RCAF pilot said the airplane felt like "the world's fastest tricycle". Obviously speeds were much lower with a running engine due to the use of blown flaps.

http://www.916-starfighter.de/Cartoons/gallery_cart007.htm
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miamiair
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Mon Apr 07, 2008 12:07 pm



Quoting ZBBYLW (Thread starter):

It has the same glide ratio as a Pitts, which is easily demonstrated by taking a brick and tossing it out any window.
Molon Labe - Proud member of SMASH
 
Blackprojects
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Mon Apr 07, 2008 8:34 pm

The F-104 has a similar glide Ratio to the Space Shuttle which is similar to a House Brick!  Wow!  old 
 
arluna
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:07 am

Using "F-104" and "glide" in the same sentence is an oxymoron.

J
 
eyes2thesky
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 5:58 am

Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 4):
In a no-flaps landing an RCAF pilot said the airplane felt like "the world's fastest tricycle".

From that cartoon, the no-flaps approach speed was 260 kts Assuming a successful touch-down (no tire blow-outs etc.) how did they slow down? Arrestor hook? drag-chute? Or since the F-104 was a relatively light a/c, maybe a 10000 ft strip was enough to roll to a stop with careful braking?

[Edited 2008-04-07 23:12:09]
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Blackbird
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 6:53 am

I would assume the F-104's glide ratio would be downright awful.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:06 am

Can you say brick, anvil or piano? Big grin

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
2H4
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 10):
Can you say brick, anvil or piano?

How about a bunch of keys?  Wink

2H4
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prebennorholm
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 8:49 pm

Some 30 - 35 years ago we had a deadstick landing at AAL with a Royal Danish Air Force F-104G. The landing was eventless. The Starfighter happened to be close to home and at great altitude when the engine quit (maybe because he had suffered engine troubles before it quit completely?)

It was told at that time that glide ratio in clean configuration is around 5, and around 3 with gear and flaps down.

I heard that the pilot was reprimanded by the squadron leader for disobeying orders, which was condition-less to jump in case of engine failure. And 30 seconds later, when the squadron leader had recovered from his chuckle, then he handed the pilot a medal for saving the aircraft.

That last story may be true, or it may be some inaccurate later addition. That sort or stories always get better and better as years pass by.
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rfields5421
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 9:48 pm



Quoting Prebennorholm (Reply 12):
I heard that the pilot was reprimanded by the squadron leader for disobeying orders, which was condition-less to jump in case of engine failure. And 30 seconds later, when the squadron leader had recovered from his chuckle, then he handed the pilot a medal for saving the aircraft.

I would not be surprised by any military giving a pilot a reprimand for not following procedures, and an award for being successful at saving an aircraft.

Two separate actions each meriting their own reward/punishment.

Saw something similar happen in the US Navy several times over my 20 year career - one involving an A-3 Skywarrior and one involving a surface ship fire come to mind quickly.
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MissedApproach
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Tue Apr 08, 2008 11:55 pm



Quoting Eyes2thesky (Reply 8):
no-flaps approach speed was 260 kts

Actually that's for a full flame-out landing. Presumably you'd carry a larger safety margin since you wouldn't be able to make any approach corrections with power. While a powered no-flaps landing was slower, touchdown was still around 240 kts IIRC. I would say that's a cable engagement situation!
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LongbowPilot
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 2:31 am

Quoting Tommy Lee Jones from Space Cowboys, "A flying brick.... with wings!"

-Attack
 
FTOHIST
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 4:06 am

I'd be curious to see some stats on how many F-104 engine-out landings were undertaken successfully. I know of at least two that happened at Edwards AFB and one that ended up at Mojave--all during engine development. All were GE flight test pilots.
 
eyes2thesky
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 6:09 am



Quoting MissedApproach (Reply 14):
Actually that's for a full flame-out landing. Presumably you'd carry a larger safety margin since you wouldn't be able to make any approach corrections with power. While a powered no-flaps landing was slower, touchdown was still around 240 kts IIRC. I would say that's a cable engagement situation!

Ah, thanks, I missed that distinction. All I can say is hats off to anyone with the skills to walk away from a 240 kt landing.

Here's another one for the F-104 history buffs: Did it ever see combat? Only possibility that comes to mind is a Greece versus Turkey skirmish.
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vzlet
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:13 am



Quoting Eyes2thesky (Reply 17):
Did it ever see combat?

A limited amount in Vietnam. Nine were lost in combat, including one shot down by Chinese Mig-19s/F-6s over Hainan island after a nav system failure while on MiGCAP over the Gulf of Tonkin. More here.
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ptrjong
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:53 am

It also saw combat with Pakistan against India, and one was shot down by a Sukhoi Su-7 attack aircraft. Bad flying no doubt, but a very bad combat record for the F-104 nonetheless.

Peter
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MD11Engineer
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:05 am



Quoting Eyes2thesky (Reply 17):
Here's another one for the F-104 history buffs: Did it ever see combat? Only possibility that comes to mind is a Greece versus Turkey skirmish.

AFAIK, the Italian ones had at least one scrap with Lybian MIG's.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MissedApproach
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Wed Apr 09, 2008 11:10 pm



Quoting Vzlet (Reply 18):
shot down by Chinese Mig-19s

From an online article by Tom Delashaw & Mark Bovankovich (from the footnotes actually):

It should be noted that Capt. Smith's shootdown was in no way his fault. Smith was an experienced and accomplished pilot, and was one of only two F-104 USAF-FWS graduates. Smith got lost because of a series of equipment failures (primarily his IFF transponder and his standby compass) and bad luck. The J-6 that shot him down was GCI vectored from within a cloud layer to attack position. It is testimony to Smith's nature that after being hit by the J-6, he cleared a compressor stall, selected his remaining Sidewinder (the other had been shot off along with a wingtip), and was maneuvering into firing position against the J-6 when his hydraulics failed and he was forced to eject. For more details of Smith's shootdown and subsequent imprisonment, the author highly recommends "Journey Into Darkness," by Col. Philip E. Smith (ret) and Peggy Herz, Simon and Schuster, 1992.

When other planes from Smith's squadron were sent to search for him, two more were lost in a mid-air collision (both pilots ejected safely).

Source: http://web.tiscali.it/F104-Starfighter/Zip.htm
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eyes2thesky
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Thu Apr 10, 2008 3:01 pm



Quoting Vzlet (Reply 18):
A limited amount in Vietnam. Nine were lost in combat



Quoting Ptrjong (Reply 19):
It also saw combat with Pakistan against India



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 20):
AFAIK, the Italian ones had at least one scrap with Lybian MIG's

Hmmm. The F-104's have a more colorful service history than I thought.

They also saw action with Taiwan against mainland China:

"The high point of the RoCAF's F-104 service came on January 13, 1967, when a pair of Starfighters shot down a couple of People's Liberation Army MiG-19s in an air battle."

http://www.starfighters.no/Star/starfighters%20with%20taiwan.htm
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YWG747
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Thu Apr 10, 2008 4:56 pm

The F-104 is an aerodynamic rock
 
MissedApproach
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Fri Apr 11, 2008 2:26 am



Quoting YWG747 (Reply 23):
The F-104 is an aerodynamic rock

Not as long as the engine is running! Probably the best example of an airplane that is "all motor".
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Blackprojects
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:16 pm

The U-2 is a Starfighter with no Burner and Bigger wings and Tail.

So the Star Fighter lives on just its now a U-2  old 

Rite down to almost the Same Engine minus the Re-heat Stealth Star Fighter.
 
474218
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RE: F-104 Glide Ratio?

Mon Apr 14, 2008 10:11 pm

Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 25):
Rite down to almost the Same Engine minus the Re-heat Stealth Star Fighter.

In fact: The F-104 used the GE J-79. The different versions of the U-2 used either the Pratt & Whitney J-57 or J-75.

[Edited 2008-04-14 15:12:47]

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