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bmacleod
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Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 4:47 pm

The USAF's recently announced Blackswift project is about testing hypersonic vehicles though I'm wondering if this project has any correlation to the long disputed "Aurora" black triangles that claim to have been spotted over the Nevada skies over the past 10 years.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:31 pm

I doubt it... Considering Nasa just finally got something hypersonic on a ramjet not too long ago..
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Auror

Tue Jun 03, 2008 6:05 pm

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 1):
I doubt it... Considering Nasa just finally got something hypersonic on a ramjet not too long ago..

The SR71 was a ramjet that used a trubojet to get up to speed and is relatively just under hypersonic.

The x15 was experimenting with ramjet technology and hypersonic flight in the 60's with NASA.

http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/h...peeches/x-15_speech/x15-6spch.html

Considering that both of the above programs were designed in the 50's and 60's its reasonable to believe that there have been hypersonic ramjet/scramjet aircraft for decades.

NASA isn't the only agency trying to produce these things either.

[Edited 2008-06-03 11:18:39]
 
TedTAce
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Auror

Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):
The SR71 was a ramjet that used a trubojet to get up to speed and is relatively just under hypersonic.

It was a psuedo hybrid. It's technology is little like a true ramjet. It used the tailpipe as a sort of ramjet, but it was dependent on the turbine.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):

The x15 was experimenting with ramjet technology and hypersonic flight in the 60's with NASA.

The article doesn't seem to clearly indicate the engine was effectively tested.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):
NASA isn't the only agency trying to produce these things either.

No, but I can't see Darpa being deep enough to out spend and research Nasa.

All of this is not to say they couldn't have come up with a new inlet design or leveraged a technology like: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/stephen98flight.html

If there is something I'm suspicious of it is Lasre. Hypersonic? MAYBE. Better cost/performance value? ABSOLUTELY!!
 
fumanchewd
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Auror

Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:46 am



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
It used the tailpipe as a sort of ramjet, but it was dependent on the turbine.

Only for slower speeds. At higher mach speeds the bypass flaps would completely bypass the turbine and it becomes a pure ramjet. The turbojet core was not utilized at higher speeds.

The turboramjet is a hybrid engine that essentially consists of a turbojet mounted inside a ramjet. The turbojet core is mounted inside a duct that contains a combustion chamber downstream of the turbojet nozzle. The turboramjet can be run in turbojet mode at takeoff and during low speed flight but then switch to ramjet mode to accelerate to high Mach numbers.

Once the aircraft was traveling fast enough, the bypass flaps would block the flow into the turbojet and the engine would begin operating as a ramjet to accelerate to cruise speed. The SR-71 typically flew between Mach 3 and 3.5 during cruise flight, speeds at which the turbojet could not function because of the temperature limitations of its turbine blades.

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0175.shtml

It's like using a bomber to drop an x-15. Just because it didn't get up to speed from the ground on its own power doesn't mean it wasn't hypersonic.

Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):

The x15 was experimenting with ramjet technology and hypersonic flight in the 60's with NASA.

The article doesn't seem to clearly indicate the engine was effectively tested.

That's correct. But my point was the tests took place 45 years ago.

No one has any type of authority to say whether or not the Aurora was a hypersonic ram/scramjet or not.

I am suspicious when we are told that since the 45-55 years of the mach 3.0 + ramjet SR71 and the mach 6.0+ x-15, nothing has been developed faster (hypersonic or not).

I understand that satellites took over many roles of these aircraft, but to say that only a complete failure (Aurora) was developed during the late 60's, 70's, 80's, and 90's is hard to believe.

On that note, this Blackswift is being toted in these articles as "surveillance". If satellites are the highmark in surveillance, what is the point of this aircraft? What other roles might it take on that they do not want to release? Missile interception? Strategic high altitude attacks? Just wondering.
 
GPIARFF
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Wed Jun 04, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
On that note, this Blackswift is being toted in these articles as "surveillance". If satellites are the highmark in surveillance, what is the point of this aircraft?

Tasking on the fly. If you need to take a peek somewhere you don't have a satellite orbiting in the right place/time it is always faster/more specific to send an aircraft.
 
TedTAce
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Wed Jun 04, 2008 7:59 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
No one has any type of authority to say whether or not the Aurora was a hypersonic ram/scramjet or not.

Nope, and I'm not saying it's impossible, I just don't think it's practical.

Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
I am suspicious when we are told that since the 45-55 years of the mach 3.0 + ramjet SR71 and the mach 6.0+ x-15, nothing has been developed faster (hypersonic or not).

It's called the Shuttle  duck 
This goes back into the CBA thing I was talking about. If they have mystically come up with something that can magically run on JP-8 (due to no known modified tankers like the SR had) or go intercontinental and back unrefuelled on something other then JP-8 it would make sense. Remember what a mx nightmare the SR was; It's not that it's a bad plane it just took so much work. I can't see it being replaced with something FASTER only for this reason. Stealthier, absolutely, but not faster.

Quoting GPIARFF (Reply 5):
Tasking on the fly. If you need to take a peek somewhere you don't have a satellite orbiting in the right place/time it is always faster/more specific to send an aircraft.

 checkmark 
 
nomadd22
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:43 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 2):
The x15 was experimenting with ramjet technology and hypersonic flight in the 60's with NASA.

I hadn't realized the 15 was ever anything but a rocket plane. Thanks for the link.
Ben Rich tells the story of his first job for Kelly Johnson at Skunkworks. They bought him on board to solve the inlet design problem they were having with the SR-71 engines. Nobody there had realized that you could speed up airflow by putting a blockage in front of the inlet. Those moveable cones he came up with solved their problem. It's how they manged to make the engine work like a ramjet at lower speeds than normal.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:57 pm



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):

No one has any type of authority to say whether or not the Aurora was a hypersonic ram/scramjet or not.

Well "Aurora" was the codename of the B-2A Spirit bomber during it's development period, so I would say it was not hypersonic nor was it powered by a (sc)ramjet.  Smile
 
cloudy
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:33 pm

Aurora is the military ATC codename for any classified aircraft, IIRC. So everything from Have Blue to the B2 was called Aurora at one time or another.
 
Thorny
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:38 pm



Quoting Cloudy (Reply 9):
Aurora is the military ATC codename for any classified aircraft, IIRC.

Perhaps, but there were also budget entries in the late '80s for something called "Aurora", that don't seem to be related to B-2.
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:41 pm

er JP-8?!? Thats a Subsonic Fuel dont you mean JP-7?

JP-8

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-8

JP-7

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JP-7

If JP-7 was Pumped into a Normal jet aircraft from a KC-135Q by Mistake the Normal Jet would Flame out in Nothing Flat as it"s Igniters would be unable to Ignite the JP-7!  old 
 
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larshjort
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RE: VW Considering Selling 2010 Polo Model In U.S.

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 11):
er JP-8?!? Thats a Subsonic Fuel dont you mean JP-7?

AFAIK we are putting JP-8 in our F-16's and last time I checked they flew Mach 1+  Wink
/Lars
 
GST
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:43 am



Quoting Fumanchewd (Reply 4):
If satellites are the highmark in surveillance, what is the point of this aircraft?

Sattelites cant read your car's numberplate...aircraft can in a relatively cool climate with minimal heat haze, from a very long distance.

Before the RAf retired the Canberra, it demonstrated its cameras for the public by taking extremely high resolution picturess of Canary Wharf in London, whilst orbiting 40,000 feet over the Isle of white. Just imagine what a stealthy, long range high altitude recon bird can do.
 
scouseflyer
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:09 am



Quoting GST (Reply 13):
Before the RAf retired the Canberra, it demonstrated its cameras for the public by taking extremely high resolution picturess of Canary Wharf in London, whilst orbiting 40,000 feet over the Isle of white. Just imagine what a stealthy, long range high altitude recon bird can do.

Cool - are those pictures on the web anywhere?
 
GST
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:17 am



Quoting Scouseflyer (Reply 14):
are those pictures on the web anywhere?

the link to the high res image I had bookmarked, but I have found a reasonable copy of the image here
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/documents...0688a802f995c/EN_aa_winter2005.pdf

and its in this report here
http://www.channel4.com/news/article...canberras%20final%20mission/166095
 
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Stitch
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:37 pm



Quoting Thorny (Reply 10):
Perhaps, but there were also budget entries in the late '80s for something called "Aurora", that don't seem to be related to B-2.

According to B-2 program principles, those budget items were indeed for the Spirit.
 
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Moose135
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:41 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 16):
According to B-2 program principles, those budget items were indeed for the Spirit.

That's what they want to to think  Wink
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:30 pm

Lars you can put JP-8 into an F-16 as it does not have to handle the Enhanced Heat Sink Effects that a MACH 3+ machine will Encounter.

JP-7 is Hi Tempreature Fuel Designed to use the Hi Heat Sink from the Friction of the Aircraft with the Air to Heat the Fuel up and Cool the Aircraft Down.

If you Put JP-8 into a Black Bird or somthing Similar it woulfd Probably Explode as it does not react the same wasy as JP-7 also JP-7 is not like normal Jet Fuel.

I have seen A Crew at Mildenhall Drop Lighted Matches into a Pool of JP-7 and the Matches go out.

When the Same trick is done with JET-A1 you get a totaly diferent result.

JP-7 has a very Hi Flash

JP-4 and JP-7 info on this PDF.

http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp76-c3.pdf

SR-71s BlackBird MAINTENANCE

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/c_bennett/bbird-03.html



I  old 
 
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larshjort
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting BlackProjects (Reply 18):
Lars you can put JP-8 into an F-16 as it does not have to handle the Enhanced Heat Sink Effects that a MACH 3+ machine will Encounter.

JP-7 is Hi Tempreature Fuel Designed to use the Hi Heat Sink from the Friction of the Aircraft with the Air to Heat the Fuel up and Cool the Aircraft Down.

If you Put JP-8 into a Black Bird or somthing Similar it woulfd Probably Explode as it does not react the same wasy as JP-7 also JP-7 is not like normal Jet Fuel.

I knew that, but Mach 2 is still supersonic  Wink
 
cloudy
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:59 pm



Quoting TedTAce (Reply 3):
No, but I can't see Darpa being deep enough to out spend and research Nasa.

DARPA was created to research things that don't clearly fall into the realm of a specific
branch of the military. It is there to research joint use, mostly long term technologies.
A hypersonic spyplane would clearly be an air force show - so I don't see how DARPA could get involved. They could have been involved in some of the precursor technologies, however.
 
Blackprojects
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RE: Hypersonic Blackswift - Any Relation To "Aurora"?

Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:59 pm

The Stuff that DARPA have at a Certain Location in NEVADA would probably make a lot of Civilian Aerospace Engineers Droole with Excitment if they ever get to see it/Them.

With the Amount of Secrecy Surounding the Black Projects that are Kept at AREAR51 it will be a Cold Day in Hadees before the DARPA gets to release the Information to any one Let alone Civil Companies or even NASA Look how long it took for the News that the SR-71a exhisted to bee made Public from the time of it"s 1st Flight.

Let alone Production Comencing.

The Aurora Project Confirmation was Mistakenly Released to the Media and then a Stell Lid was Welded Down on top of the Project and it Vanished into the BLACK WORLD!

Untill the Sonic Booms Started happening when the SR-71 and Space shuttle were not around to Cause the Booms, Q AURORA to Come onto the Scene yet even now years after the Booms started AURORA is still not out in the real World.

 old 

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