Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:58 pm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24988491

With the USAF unwilling to follow Sec Gates directives I guess this was a long time coming, I remember getting a email from the SEC AF and CSAF about Sec Gates speech at Maxwell AFB and saying the Sec Gates speech was miss qouted and he has no problem with the USAF and how it respond in todays battlefield. I guess those two guys were wrong. I could also interept this a shot across the bow of the USAF of get in the war and stop worrying about new weopons buys and start acting like a military service. The next CSAF will come out of no where which alot of other senior officers will be bypassed. The days of the CEO/manager Generals are coming to a close in the USAF. To all you guys in Blue welcome to the military.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Thorny
Posts: 1508
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2005 8:44 am

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:10 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Thread starter):
With the USAF unwilling to follow Sec Gates directives I guess this was a long time coming, I remember getting a email from the SEC AF and CSAF about Sec Gates speech at Maxwell AFB and saying the Sec Gates speech was miss qouted and he has no problem with the USAF and how it respond in todays battlefield.

CNN is saying they were sacked because of the nuclear security fiasco at Minot last summer, which a week or two ago the ORI found still hadn't been fixed. Also, the Army COS was sacked last year over Walter Reed, so there is no need to read "the Air Force isn't carrying its weight in the war" into this.

Regardless, I for one am glad to see these guys go. The USAF needs to get rid of a bunch more of them, too. The USAF needs leaders, but all it has are officers.
 
Norlander
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:39 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:00 pm

Here is the story from the Air Force Times, which I assume is a competent journalistic source on what goes on in the US Air Force.

Fair Use 3 Paragraph excerpt:

Quote:

Those grievances include criticism of the Air Force’s nuclear weapons handling, two major acquisitions programs that have been stalled by protests, the service’s inability to rush more surveillance drones to the war zones, apparent conflicts of interest of current and retired senior officials related to a $50 million contract to produce a multimedia show for the Thunderbirds, and repeated clashes with Pentagon leaders over the number of F-22s the Air Force will buy and other budget issues.
...
The most serious blow to the credibility of the Air Force and its leadership has been a scandal spawned by the service’s accidental transfer in August of six nuclear-tipped cruise missiles from Minot Air Force Base, N.D., to Barksdale Air Force Base, La.
...
Then in March, it was discovered that the Air Force had accidentally shipped classified nuclear warhead fuses to Taiwan in 2006. That prompted Gates to order a military-wide inventory of nuclear weapons and components. That report was recently submitted to Gates but has not been released publicly.

Longtime Lurker
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:25 pm

being an outsider and reading about those things also mentioned in the Air Force times it is a clear example of not meeting goals and mismanagement. People have been sacked for less, even here.
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:53 pm

same event differnet take.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,363495,00.html
Just be glad for those individuals they were not in a Air Force that had a Gen LeMay and a SAC, it would not have taken action by the Sec Def to instill a boot to the ass if USAF senior leadership would have done theirs.
I know todays Airmen don't want hear the term "Back in SAC" but maybe they need to look in the past to see their futures. We SACumsized guys were conditioned to follow checklists as gospel, deviation was verboten, you were in standard or out of standard and it was a strict command to be in. it had to be. I believe the world is a more dangerous place now than back in the cold war because like the Sting song says the Russians loved their children too. The Iranian President bragging about using these horrible weapons on Israel and the great Satan there is no room for 2nd chances.
I remember during Desert Storm the TAC types were complaining about the SAC Tanker and Bombers were too rigid to set checklists and procedures, which made last minute tasking difficult in their view, it was just a different culture from SAC to TAC.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
XC5Eng
Posts: 54
Joined: Tue Apr 04, 2006 2:10 am

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:10 pm

AMEN!!!

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 8):
Just be glad for those individuals they were not in a Air Force that had a Gen LeMay and a SAC, it would not have taken action by the Sec Def to instill a boot to the ass if USAF senior leadership would have done theirs.
I know todays Airmen don't want hear the term "Back in SAC" but maybe they need to look in the past to see their futures. We SACumsized guys were conditioned to follow checklists as gospel, deviation was verboten, you were in standard or out of standard and it was a strict command to be in. it had to be. I believe the world is a more dangerous place now than back in the cold war because like the Sting song says the Russians loved their children too. The Iranian President bragging about using these horrible weapons on Israel and the great Satan there is no room for 2nd chances.
I remember during Desert Storm the TAC types were complaining about the SAC Tanker and Bombers were too rigid to set checklists and procedures, which made last minute tasking difficult in their view, it was just a different culture from SAC to TAC.

 
checksixx
Posts: 1224
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:29 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 8):
Just be glad for those individuals they were not in a Air Force that had a Gen LeMay and a SAC, it would not have taken action by the Sec Def to instill a boot to the ass if USAF senior leadership would have done theirs.

I don't disagree with you, but you're getting all your information and views from the news...this is not how 99% of the Air Force functions now. Plain and simple. Some of the problems you bring up as if they are new, are not...even from the SAC days. They also encompass every service and all the way up to the President. The bottom line is we now live in a 'blame it on someone else' society who's leaders stand by and watch the system fail. They then blame it on someone else as if somehow that will fix it. It won't. I would have held the MAJCOM CC to the fire, not the top two who more than likely did the job that they were supposed to do.

Either way, Gates can kiss my @ss...he hates the Air Force and isn't afraid of anyone knowing.
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11163
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:36 pm



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 12):
Gates can kiss my @ss...he hates the Air Force and isn't afraid of anyone knowing.

Maybe that is what it will take to clean up the USAF, USN, US Army, and USMC (SOD Gates cannot do much about the problems in the USCG).
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:00 pm

Criticism of very senior officers by malcontent SNCOs and passed over or retired SNCOs doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

The qualities that make a great leader of an organisation the size of the USAF are managerial and political, and the inference that you need the same kind of chap who'd make a good Master Sergeant is misplaced.

Moseley's a good guy, with a good air power brain, and he has been a good political fighter for the USAF.

He's carrying the can for other people's mistakes (one of the penalties of command) which would be OK if it were for any other reason than to make it look as though a bankrupt administration is doing something about a politically embarrassing mistake.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Thu Jun 05, 2008 11:15 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 15):
Criticism of very senior officers by malcontent SNCOs and passed over or retired SNCOs doesn't cut it for me, I'm afraid.

Easily said when you offer no validation for your point of view....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
echster
Posts: 399
Joined: Thu Sep 02, 2004 4:01 pm

USAF Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:01 am



Quoting Thorny (Reply 1):
Also, the Army COS was sacked last year over Walter Reed, so there is no need to read "the Air Force isn't carrying its weight in the war" into this.

It was the Secretary of the Army (Dr. Geren) who fell on his sword over Walter Reed.
 
Charles79
Posts: 1119
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 12:35 pm

RE: Csaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Sacked

Fri Jun 06, 2008 12:26 am



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 4):
"Back in SAC"

You're absolutely correct, we are soooo tired of the "Back in SAC" crowd...they complain that things aren't the same, yet seldom offer a viable alternative.

Bottom-line is that the USAF was being run by fighter pilots who prized their tiny little jets and didn't wake up to the notion that for the wars we have at hand (and into the future) the airpower needed consists of UAVs, bombers, tankers, cargo planes, A-10s, and spacepower (comm, GPS, etc). Fact is that serious mistakes were also made under their watch, and thus they have to pay for them. Much like in the corporate world when CEOs loose their jobs after 2 straight quarter losses.

Auf wiedersehen Mosely/Wynn!
 
fsnuffer
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:38 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 2:46 am

Back in my day  Smile

I was in from 87 -> 93 and was in TAC, MAC, and SAC (offutt). SAC had their stuff together and when it came to nuclear ops there was absolutely NO deviation/complaicency allowed. MAC and TAC had a guard mentality while SAC had a very professional warrior mentality. It all came down to our non-PC motto:

"War is our profession, peace is our product"
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 3:30 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
The qualities that make a great leader of an organisation the size of the USAF are managerial and political, and the inference that you need the same kind of chap who'd make a good Master Sergeant is misplaced.

Doesn't the core values, military bearing, leadership qualities that make a good MSgt or new Airman the same for a General or do they have their own rules. It sounds that we must have to vet our new senior leadership for diplomas from Wharton or Harvard business school. The last thing the USAF needs is a CEO/ Manager. Or do you think the public we serve could not handle the truth of a hard charging Gen officer who is apolitcal because of the soul draining group think of political correctness. When Gen LeMay was CSAF for Pres Kennedy they often butted heads because a military professional told his CINC what he needed to hear not what he wanted to hear.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:54 am

The military does not enjoy the same degree of public support that it had in the early 60s, because we're not now perceived as being 'at war'. LeMay was the right man for the job at the time, but senior officers today have to play a more subtle game if they are to maximise their influence over those who hold the purse strings.

Like it or not, the successful commander today must have political and managerial skills that were unnecessary 30 years ago.
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 14):
Like it or not, the successful commander today must have political and managerial skills that were unnecessary 30 years ago.

it is a pitty that is this true that the USA will go the way of Rome and die from within, the way theater commanders have to play diplomacy why a state department. Speak softly and carry a armored division in your pocket.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Res

Fri Jun 06, 2008 5:41 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
He's carrying the can for other people's mistakes (one of the penalties of command) which would be OK if it were for any other reason

Spoken like a true insider. I'm sure that will help get you plenty of access to your retired general friends when they become executives at Boeing, NG, LM and BAE.

While there may be some big problems in DOD and the White House may have certainly mishandled Iraq lets not pass this one off as "other people's mistakes". There are three very identifiable problems that happened on their "watch" that where very preventable.

Air Force bombers flying around with live Nucs in itself is no big deal but when it is a mistake that goes unnoticed it's a problem. Sending guidance parts for ICBMs to Taiwan (and indirectly everyone else), again points to systematic problems. Last influence peddling on contract awards. If these guys are crooked on a 50 million dollar contract what makes you think they won't try to influence a 35 billion dollar contract?

The one part you got right Jack is that peace time leaders and wartime leaders are not the same and they require different skill sets and temperaments.

Quoting Charles79 (Reply 11):
Fact is that serious mistakes were also made under their watch,

Exactly. Who gets court marshaled when the ship runs aground? The Captain of the ship. This happens even if he is asleep in his bunk.

Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 15):
it is a pitty that is this true that the USA will go the way of Rome and die from within

Actually these two guys being forced out is a good sign. The system still works.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 6:52 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
Moseley's a good guy, with a good air power brain, and he has been a good political fighter for the USAF.

He's carrying the can for other people's mistakes (one of the penalties of command) which would be OK if it were for any other reason than to make it look as though a bankrupt administration is doing something about a politically embarrassing mistake.

I can see you've never held command, or if you did, you never understood what it means to hold command.

That you consider the serious mistakes currently plaguing the Air Force to be only "politically embarassing" is astounding.

Gates didn't fire Moseley for one mistake, he fired Moseley because a series of very serious mistakes demonstrated that the senior leadership wasn't doing its job. In the Navy, if the CO is asleep and an OOD runs aground, the CO is almost always relieved of his/her command. It is the way it is.

Bush should have fired Rumsfeld long ago and put Gates in charge. We finally have a SecDef who is holding people accountable.

Quoting Alien (Reply 16):
Air Force bombers flying around with live Nucs in itself is no big deal but when it is a mistake that goes unnoticed it's a problem. Sending guidance parts for ICBMs to Taiwan (and indirectly everyone else), again points to systematic problems. Last influence peddling on contract awards. If these guys are crooked on a 50 million dollar contract what makes you think they won't try to influence a 35 billion dollar contract?

 checkmark  For anyone to suggest that the Air Froce doesn't have a serious problem on its hands is simply ludicrous.

Quoting Alien (Reply 16):
Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 15):
it is a pitty that is this true that the USA will go the way of Rome and die from within

Actually these two guys being forced out is a good sign. The system still works.

Precisely.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Jackonicko
Posts: 474
Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 1:47 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:42 pm

It's easy to make the crowd-pleasing decision to sack the bloke at the top.

Fire who's notionally accountable, not who's actually responsible.

What's needed is to track down and identify those who were DIRECTLY responsible for the 'serious mistakes' (though no-one died because a Buff ferried live nukes) and fire them, and then institute root and branch reform and procedures that ensure that repetition is impossible.

And then look into the indirect causes of the mistakes. Was Pentagon interference or under-funding a factor? Was their inadequate supervision and oversight, and if so, who was really responsible?

But that could be politically embarrassing, and could lead to embarrassing questions. While tracking down the real culprits and solving underlying problems costs money, and causes organisational turbulence and disruption. It's so much easier to fire SECAF and Moseley, and it pleases the knuckleheads into the bargain.

And if the buck stops at the top, shouldn't Gates fall on his sword? Or even the Commander in Chief?

That would be silly. It's much better to tackle those who are actually directly responsible, and they lie some way below Moseley's pay grade.
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:56 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
And if the buck stops at the top, shouldn't Gates fall on his sword? Or even the Commander in Chief?

Interesting observation...Why are Sec Wynn and Gen Mosley "Responsible" but NOT SECDEF for the lack of positive controls of nuclear weapons?

If the General sitting in the same five sided building as SECDEF is responsible for what happens 2000 miles away under his command, isn't the SECDEF also responsible for the actions of these same people 2000 mile away?

Clearly, the issues are deeper than the nuke incident...I think the the USAF's defiance of SECDEF's" Tunnel Vision" (Don't think about tomorrow's war, think about today) is the root cause. Problem is "War fighters" have to think about today, and acquisition folks are taught to think about tomorrow's wars.

Leaders have to balance both agendas while political appointees (like SECDEF) only need focus on the short term results of their tenure to pad their resumes since their service is short lived...meanwhile...the responsibility of the career force is left with the job of fighting today and planning for tomorrow, regardless of who the political appointee is who passes through the revolving door of the SECDEF's office.
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:02 am

Most telling:

Quote:
Air Force leaders "not only fell short in terms of specific acts, they failed to recognize systemic problems, to address those problems or, when beyond their authority to act, to call the attention of superiors to those problems," said Mr Gates.



Quote:
"Our policy is clear," said Mr Gates. "We will ensure the complete physical control of nuclear weapons and we will properly handle their associated components at all times. It is a tremendous responsibility and one we must and will never take lightly."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article4078606.ece

You can do your own research but there are plenty of reasons why these two should go. Yes the actual mistakes made where done by personel far junior to them but the Air Force Chief of Staff and his civilian oversight set the tone for how the air force operates. Their staff is responsible for ensuring that proper procedures are put in place and that those procedures are followed.

Even worse Moseley and Wynn did nothing to rectify any of this. It was Secratary Gates that initiated the investigations not the Air Force.

As for heads rolling, rest assured there will be many heads rolling in the ranks of the colonels and generals.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
What's needed is to track down and identify those who were DIRECTLY responsible for the 'serious mistakes' (though no-one died because a Buff ferried live nukes) and fire them,

The air force leadership failed to do so.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
and then institute root and branch reform and procedures that ensure that repetition is impossible.

It took an investigation initiated by Secretary Gates to do this.

No, the top two Air Force officials did not have any direct involvement. Their job is to set policy and ensure that procedures are in place to properly run all facets of the Air Force. They did not do this. Lastly, once they found mistakes made they did nothing to find out what the underlying problems where and they did nothing to ensure none of this occurs again.

This is very basic organizational leadership and it applies to all organizations.
 
atmx2000
Posts: 4301
Joined: Wed Oct 13, 2004 4:24 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:13 am



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
He's carrying the can for other people's mistakes (one of the penalties of command) which would be OK if it were for any other reason than to make it look as though a bankrupt administration is doing something about a politically embarrassing mistake.



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
But that could be politically embarrassing, and could lead to embarrassing questions. While tracking down the real culprits and solving underlying problems costs money, and causes organisational turbulence and disruption. It's so much easier to fire SECAF and Moseley, and it pleases the knuckleheads into the bargain.

And if the buck stops at the top, shouldn't Gates fall on his sword? Or even the Commander in Chief?



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 19):
Interesting observation...Why are Sec Wynn and Gen Mosley "Responsible" but NOT SECDEF for the lack of positive controls of nuclear weapons?

If the problems are localized to the Air Force, then why should the responsibility be with the SecDec? For example is the Navy keeping their nukes safe or not? If they aren't then maybe the problem is higher up. If not just maybe the problem is service specific.

Anyway, unsurprisingly Sen. Pat Murray (D-Osama's Daycare Centers) is trying to spin the Moseley firing in a way to question the tanker competition and award to NG/EADS. Given Jackonicko's strident support for the A332 based tanker and now his suprisingly strident support for Moseley, maybe there is something to Murray's spinning.
ConcordeBoy is a twin supremacist!! He supports quadicide!!
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
If the problems are localized to the Air Force, then why should the responsibility be with the SecDec? For example is the Navy keeping their nukes safe or not? If they aren't then maybe the problem is higher up. If not just maybe the problem is service specific.

Gates had to get a Navy admiral to perform the investigation since Moseley would not.

Quoting Atmx2000 (Reply 21):
Given Jackonicko's strident support for the A332 based tanker and now his suprisingly strident support for Moseley, maybe there is something to Murray's spinning.

Moseley has a documented history of steering contracts. Maybe he helped steer the tanker contract to EADS.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 1:47 pm



Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
What's needed is to track down and identify those who were DIRECTLY responsible for the 'serious mistakes' (though no-one died because a Buff ferried live nukes) and fire them, and then institute root and branch reform and procedures that ensure that repetition is impossible.

And then look into the indirect causes of the mistakes. Was Pentagon interference or under-funding a factor? Was their inadequate supervision and oversight, and if so, who was really responsible?

But that could be politically embarrassing, and could lead to embarrassing questions. While tracking down the real culprits and solving underlying problems costs money, and causes organisational turbulence and disruption. It's so much easier to fire SECAF and Moseley, and it pleases the knuckleheads into the bargain.

I'm amazed that someone who writes extensively about the military as you do fails to understand the culture of the organization you write about.

ultimate command responsibility is just that. It was Moseley's job to find out what went wrong, and fix it. Given the series of events that have transpired over the last year, it obviously became apparent to Secretary Gates that Moseley wasn't taking sufficient steps to do either, so he fired him.

All too often, when something bad happens in the military, it is only the people down the chain that suffer, and the senior people responsible slip away scot free. As a former JAG, I can think of three incidents I was personally involved in where a senior officer should have been court-martialed but wasn't, thanks to inteference from above - leaving only the senior enlisted and junior officers to suffer punishment.

I applaud Secretary Gates' action holding senior leadership accountable. If General Moseley thinks he was unfairly treated, let him write a book about it after he retires.
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:36 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
ultimate command responsibility is just that. It was Moseley's job to find out what went wrong, and fix it. Given the series of events that have transpired over the last year, it obviously became apparent to Secretary Gates that Moseley wasn't taking sufficient steps to do either, so he fired him.

Mosley's job to fix sounds good on the surface, but the question stands...how does the CSAF fix the issue fo people simply NOT doing their jobs? (My Grandafather told me "You can't fix stupid")

In the week's AF Times story of the recent inspection of Minot AFB...we find the inspection failed due to security problems of the security forces (cops), and also that the unit passed in all other technical areas of weapons management.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...05/airforce_minot_failure_053008w/

From the report:

DTRA inspectors gave the wing passing grades in nine of 10 areas they examined, including safety and technical operations, but failed it for its nuclear security.

An internal security response team didn't respond to its "pre-designated defensive fighting position"

While on the aircraft, one flight of security forces airmen didn't understand key nuclear surety terminology, including the "two-person concept"

"Security forces level of knowledge, understanding of assigned duties, and response to unusual situations reflected a lack of adequate supervision,"

Inspectors watched as a security forces airman played video games on his cell phone while standing guard at a "restricted area perimeter," the DTRA report said.

I don't care who the SECAF or CSAF is...the problems at Minot were and are local issues. As much as we cry the leaders are responsible the reality is Mosley and Wynn are NOT assigned as AF Security Forces at Minot, and they did NOT load live weapons aboard the BUFF a few months ago and they were not on the crew that neglected to properly preflight the aircraft and flew these weapons cross country without a clue.

There are many people at fault here to be sure from the Airman laying video games to his supervisors, but just as clear is that neither Wynn, Mosley, nor anyone can fix or prevent the problem of incompetence and bad behavior from thousands of miles away.

I'm sure there is an Airman, soldier or Marine somewhere in the world getting arrested for DUI or some other exercise in poor judgement...if we are to hold leaders "responsible" for the actions of the troops...why do we not hold them responsible for ALL actions we find unacceptable?
 
CX747
Posts: 6129
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 7:50 pm

The official reason that they are getting sacked is the nuclear weapon issues that have occured over the past year. Gates is also not pleased about the USAF's inability to put UAVs over the battlefield. Without increasing pilot production, this issue is not going to be resolved. Pilots that are currently flying Predators are working around the clock and being pushed the max. There just aren't enough guys out there. There is also a massive brain drain going on in the fighter/bomber field by taking qualified guys and pulling them out of the cockpit.

UAVs are fantastic platforms that fill a need in the US military. With that said, they are not the be and end all of combat operations. The same can be said about the A-10. The A-10 is a tremendous platform that has performed above and beyond in Desert Storm/OAF/OEF and OIF. Just because the A-10 is kicking A$$ and taking names doesn't mean that you retire/reduce the number of F-16s or F-15Cs One should also remember that the current air dominance we have in Afghanistan and Iraq comes from that fact that F-15Cs do their job superbly. The Iraqi Air Force didn't even come up to fight this time around because they got hosed last time 30+ kills to nothing. Air combat vs Iran/China would look very different than today's walk in the park. Those facts are forgotten right now because the F-15Cs and F-22s are not flying combat operations in OIF/OEF as they are not needed. All of the assets are important and need to be properly fielded. A-10s and UAVs should have a higher priority than F-22s but not at the expense of leaving us short handed.

The UAV "piloting" issue needs to be solved and solved quickly. The Air Force needs to open up the UAV field as an actual career field and hire guys to just do that. Taking guys out of the current platform or straight out of UPT isn't the answer. Also, Gates wants better CAS but I haven't seen any new A-10s or A-10 squadrons stand up since the late 1980s. You need to buy more equipment and not just ask people to do more with less.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
TropicBird
Posts: 432
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 9:13 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:00 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 22):
Moseley has a documented history of steering contracts. Maybe he helped steer the tanker contract to EADS.

Or maybe he was the source who told Boeing to go with the KC-767 and we know that turned out to be a big mistake. Whoever did the talking is now in trouble.
 
fsnuffer
Posts: 204
Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 5:38 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:46 pm

Heard it from a good source that General Kevin Chilton is on the real short list to succeed Moseley.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_P._Chilton
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:52 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
It was Moseley's job to find out what went wrong, and fix it. Given the series of events that have transpired over the last year, it obviously became apparent to Secretary Gates that Moseley wasn't taking sufficient steps to do either, so he fired him.

Absolutely correct and since his boss did nothing about it either he got fired as well.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
Mosley's job to fix sounds good on the surface, but the question stands...how does the CSAF fix the issue fo people simply NOT doing their jobs?

He makes sure he has the staff and the procedures in place to ensure that they damn well do what they are supposed to do or he gets rid of them, that's how.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
we find the inspection failed due to security problems of the security forces (cops),

Oh, thats great it means that anyone who gets unauthorized access to the weapons will be ensured that they are working.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
I don't care who the SECAF or CSAF is...the problems at Minot were and are local issues.

Very simple. Failure of leadership.

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 26):
Or maybe he was the source who told Boeing to go with the KC-767 and we know that turned out to be a big mistake. Whoever did the talking is now in trouble.

Good point.
 
halls120
Posts: 8724
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2005 3:24 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sat Jun 07, 2008 8:55 pm



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
I don't care who the SECAF or CSAF is...the problems at Minot were and are local issues. As much as we cry the leaders are responsible the reality is Mosley and Wynn are NOT assigned as AF Security Forces at Minot, and they did NOT load live weapons aboard the BUFF a few months ago and they were not on the crew that neglected to properly preflight the aircraft and flew these weapons cross country without a clue.

They may not have loaded the live weapons at Minot, but they ultimately are responsible for the lax command oversight that allowed it to happen.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
I'm sure there is an Airman, soldier or Marine somewhere in the world getting arrested for DUI or some other exercise in poor judgement...if we are to hold leaders "responsible" for the actions of the troops...why do we not hold them responsible for ALL actions we find unacceptable?

Are you equating a DUI with mishandling nuclear weapons?
"Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." Mark Twain, a Biography
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:24 am



Quoting Curt22 (Reply 19):
Interesting observation...Why are Sec Wynn and Gen Mosley "Responsible" but NOT SECDEF for the lack of positive controls of nuclear weapons?

The problem(s) are that currently supporting the party line on Iraq is far more important than any other attribue, ability, or attitude. We will not get and/or keep capible people at ANY level of responsiblity till we have a whitehouse that understands that disagreement with them isn't the worst thing that could possibly exist on the planet. Its not "Bush" its the whole branch of the government there that has taken this attitude.

Worse is so far none of the people seem to recieve actual punishment for thier failures. Merely being removed from command is rather useless when they quickly find huge piles of $$$ making thier way into thier pocket as consultants or whatever they go onto 3 seconds after they recieve thier "punishment"

Till one actualy punishes people for neglecting thier duty, there is no incentive for many of these people to NOT neglect thier duty.
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:05 am



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 30):
The problem(s) are that currently supporting the party line on Iraq is far more important than any other attribue, ability, or attitude. We will not get and/or keep capible people at ANY level of responsiblity till we have a whitehouse that understands that disagreement with them isn't the worst thing that could possibly exist on the planet. Its not "Bush" its the whole branch of the government there that has taken this attitude.

It is fine to have internal disagreement but once the civilian authority (the President) decides to do something the troops must follow. This has been the basis of our government for 275 years. The military serves the Executive branch of government. Insinuating that the current administration's policies is an underlying cause of these problems is flat out wrong.
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2727
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:29 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 31):
The military serves the Executive branch of government

Yes, but currently people are being replaced for simply expressing to the whitehouse that what the whitehouse is saying isn't reality. Not disobeying orders, or anything like it.

Also the constitutions says the President is the commander in chief. I must have missed where it gave the vice president and many others the athority to do anything.
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:38 am



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 32):
but currently people are being replaced for simply expressing to the whitehouse that what the whitehouse is saying isn't reality.

Do you care to cite an example of this. It certainly was not the case with Moseley and Wynn.

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 32):
Also the constitutions says the President is the commander in chief. I must have missed where it gave the vice president and many others the athority to do anything.

Again, such as?
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 12:13 pm

Will all the hate Bush Lemmings please just have a original thought instead of a Moveon.org talking point. Now to all the Anetters who have never had any contact with USAF except of what you read here and else where, THIS NEEDED TO BE DONE, as a 23 year USAF vet I saw discipline, integrity and attention to detail erode to the point to year the AF I joined in 1980 had no resemblance to the force in 2003. The last great use of Airpower was during Desert Storm when the force of the 80's was trained to fight a large Soviet Army. Gen Mosely was the unfornuate guy who was the last guy to keep the status que and it bit him. Senior leadership both enlisted and officer have lost site of the big picture of fighting the enemy which does not include the USN,USA,and USMC, instead they wasted energy on uniforms and ancilliary BS that has nothing to do of putting a bomb on target, every new corporate leadership model is tryed as the fix all to be all instead of looking in the past that has worked by airpower guru's of Spaatz,Arnold, or LeMay. Not to mention Douhet.
To paraphrase a line from the movie Patton
" They don't look like Airmen or act like Airmen how do you expect them to perform like Airmen"
I look at myself in the mirror and see that I had a hand in this current climate, how many NCO's allowed their young troops to call them by their first name instead of Sgt. Did not correct mistakes on the spot because you did not want to be a [email protected]#$%le or just wanted to go home after a 15 hour day. take shortcuts with Tech data. Its a big Crap sandwich and we will have to take a bight.
Hopefully the new guy gets everybody back to basics of defending the country and killing the enemy all the other crap takes care of its self.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
Norlander
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:39 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:19 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 33):
Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 32):
but currently people are being replaced for simply expressing to the whitehouse that what the whitehouse is saying isn't reality.

Do you care to cite an example of this. It certainly was not the case with Moseley and Wynn.

William Fallon (replaced for his view on Iran) and Erik Sinseki (although not fired he was not re-hired for claiming the US needed several hundred thousand troops for Iraq).

This in contrast with people who took the fairy-tale - such as Paul Bremer who got the Presidential Medals of Freedom for what exactly? FUBAR'ing Iraq?.
Longtime Lurker
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Sun Jun 08, 2008 1:22 pm



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 23):
If General Moseley thinks he was unfairly treated, let him write a book about it after he retires.

Don't worry he will.
 
JohnM
Posts: 394
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:03 am

Venus6971, you are correct.

The big worry now is LEAN, AFSO21, and 6S. All business BS that some knot head is trying to adapt to the military.

It helped Toyota put windshields in cars. But as we know, the AF is not some company mass producing cars, or any type of business for that matter.

The Air Force of the 70's and 80's is now dead and buried. If it doesn't get turned around, Uncle is screwed.
 
zanl188
Posts: 3762
Joined: Sat Oct 21, 2006 9:05 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:08 am



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 34):
Its a big Crap sandwich and we will have to take a bight.
Hopefully the new guy gets everybody back to basics of defending the country and killing the enemy all the other crap takes care of its self.

 checkmark 

Brother you are hitting the nail right on the mark....
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11163
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 12:51 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 22):
Moseley has a documented history of steering contracts. Maybe he helped steer the tanker contract to EADS.



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 26):
Or maybe he was the source who told Boeing to go with the KC-767 and we know that turned out to be a big mistake. Whoever did the talking is now in trouble.

If those come out in the GAO report, he could end up in jail.

Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
Quoting Curt22 (Reply 24):
I'm sure there is an Airman, soldier or Marine somewhere in the world getting arrested for DUI or some other exercise in poor judgement...if we are to hold leaders "responsible" for the actions of the troops...why do we not hold them responsible for ALL actions we find unacceptable?


Are you equating a DUI with mishandling nuclear weapons?

Lapses in judgement by individual Airmen, Soldiers, Marines, or sailors end up being their responsibility. The problems within the USAF on contract and nuclear weapons issues is an organizational responsibility. So, you blame these problems (not accounting for the nukes you fly from MIB to BAD, security of nukes, handling of nukes {the B-52 crew}, not knowing what was shipped to Taiwan, steering contracts the way you want them, etc.) the leadership, or in this case, lack of leadership.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:32 am

I believe that Gates was shocked by the incidents themselves, but also by the "shit happens" response he saw with the Air Force. I see from the outside how the USN runs the NR & SP programs - ZERO TOLERANCE. The commander of SWFPAC got canned because one crew missed a step in a procedure that caused a scratch - ONE step. I believe that many along the chain were also disciplined, but the top went because there was not adherence to procedures.

I can only surmise from the press reports that DOZENS of procedures were not followed: Inventory in the magazine, identification in the magazine, storage location, transfer protocols - both sides checking and logging serial numbers, security detail at the magazine, transfer and loading at the plane, and checking at the destination. Christ! They left them unguarded all night at the destination - it is hard to believe they would leave AIM's unguarded as they have all of the electronics on them, and these were supposed to be live missiles with inert payloads.

After this incident, how serious was the audit and the lessons learned. Was it a focus of the Air Force? Obviously, the SECDEF though he should have Adm Donald review the program in comparison to the NR program. I beilieved that it showed the air force had proper procedures but it was not following them nor was it considered to be of high importance to follow them.

I think there will be a major house cleaning in the former SAC part of the house.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:50 am

Besides for the safety issues, I think that SECDEF is frustrated that the airforce is putting too much emphasis on the high tech fighters that just have to be at the utter threshold of what can be obtained rather than a little lower standard (last years threshold say) that makes the unit as still the best but not at an absurd cost, allowing for a bigger buy.

This focus has allowed the A-10's and other ground support aircraft, cargo planes, bombers, tankers, and the other less glamorous things to not get the attention they deserve. Heck, did you see the picture of that new ground support prop plane (Tuscano or similar name) that almost looked like a P-51 mustang. I'm sure it doesn't cost $50M per copy.

We need the equipment to fight the current Iraq and similar conflicts, but be also ready to deal with a real high tech war also. I think the SECDEF felt that the AF just liked the high tech.
 
Venus6971
Topic Author
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:29 am



Quoting JayinKitsap (Reply 41):
I think the SECDEF felt that the AF just liked the high tech.

Sounds like how the fighter force was before the Viet Nam war, no dog fighting missles will be all things to all people. Funny how the AF had to get A-1 Sandys from the Navy to fly CAS and CSAR. Always want the newest toy for a war we never fought.
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 9873
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Res

Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:37 pm

Gates just named his choices for Air Force secretary and chief of staff:

Gates wants Michael Donley, a senior Pentagon official, to become the new Air Force secretary and Gen. Norton Schwartz, the service's No. 2, to become chief of staff.

So how does this bode for the Air Force? Are these "good" choices for the Service or Gates' puppets?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Norlander
Posts: 138
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 10:39 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:44 pm

Gates picks new leadership for the Air Force

The new leadership has been chosen.

Quote:

Gen. Norton Schwartz, commander of U.S. Transportation Command, will be nominated to become the 19th Air Force chief of staff, Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced Monday.

And Mike Donley, a career civil servant who is presently the Pentagon’s Director of Administration and Management, will be the next Air Force secretary, Gates announced.

The announcements come just days after Chief of Staff Gen. T. Michael Moseley and Secretary Michael W. Wynne were forced to resign Thursday as the result of problems with the Air Force’s nuclear weapons program.

If confirmed by the Senate, Schwartz will be the first nonfighter pilot to lead the service since 1982, marking the end of an era during which the so-called fighter mafia has dominated the Air Force.

Seems to follow the sentiment of the last few posters. With General Schwartz Gates is signaling the end of the fighter mafia.
Longtime Lurker
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Res

Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:28 pm



Quoting Norlander (Reply 35):
William Fallon

Actually he was replaced because of his inability to stop the flow of weapons from Iran to Iraq.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...riors-welcome-fallons-resignation/

Quote:
"I don't believe there have ever been any differences about the objectives of our policy in the Central Command area of responsibility," Adm. Fallon said, and he regretted "the simple perception that there is."

This is what he actually said in regard to Iran:

Quote:
"We have to figure out a way to come to an arrangement with them," Fallon said about Iran in an interview with the Associated Press.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2007-05-28-fallon-iran_N.htm

Big difference.

As for Shinseki, although probably correct his views where different enough and he was outspoken about it and high enough up in the food chain that once the decision was made his opposition view would be a distraction. You make your point and move on and you make it in private. Again Organizational Leadership 101. But you do have the benefit of hindsight.

Sorry, nothing like facts to get in the way of a good Bush bash.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Wed Jun 11, 2008 2:03 am



Quoting Checksixx (Reply 6):
not the top two who more than likely did the job that they were supposed to do.

No. There's no room for mistakes with nuclear weapons and they were the two guys in charge of the Air Force. The privilege of command is the mission of leadership. One of the risks is responsibility.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 8):
He's carrying the can for other people's mistakes (one of the penalties of command) which would be OK if it were for any other reason than to make it look as though a bankrupt administration is doing something about a politically embarrassing mistake.

Nah....the powers that be in the military are doing what is required to rectify and prevent future mistakes. Demonstrating consequences of failure in a zero-tolerance area is one of the unpleasant necessities. I hate the concept of zero-tolerance of accidents and errors. But with nukes that has to be the case. The people who work with them are volunteers, and the officers who lead them want to be there.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 14):
The military does not enjoy the same degree of public support that it had in the early 60s, because we're not now perceived as being 'at war'.

What planet are you on for that one? Perhaps where you sit, but my friends in the UK know they're at war. For damn sure we know it over here. People may not be as involved personally as they should be, but over there at least the military gets plenty of support. Other than from politicians who want to shift the money to social programs.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
Fire who's notionally accountable, not who's actually responsible

Notionally? The SECAF and COSAF were actually responsible. The others in the chain below them were also disciplined or cashiered.

Quoting Jackonicko (Reply 18):
What's needed is to track down and identify those who were DIRECTLY responsible for the 'serious mistakes' (though no-one died because a Buff ferried live nukes) and fire them, and then institute root and branch reform and procedures that ensure that repetition is impossible.

That's been done, and believe that those involved have either been removed from position, retrained or dismissed.

Quoting Curt22 (Reply 19):
Why are Sec Wynn and Gen Mosley "Responsible" but NOT SECDEF

SECDEF is actually in the chain of command, so it's feasible....but the SECDEF was new and couldn't be held responsible for stuff that happened before.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:48 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 26):
Also, Gates wants better CAS but I haven't seen any new A-10s or A-10 squadrons stand up since the late 1980s.

The A-10 is a great platform but doesn't hold a candle to the persistence and lethality of an orbiting Gunship, and the USAF (AFSOC/SOCOM) are working on a new gunship program so at least in this subject...the CSAF was working within the SECDEF's mandate...granted could be too little too late considering all the other issues.
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:53 am



Quoting Halls120 (Reply 29):
He makes sure he has the staff and the procedures in place to ensure that they damn well do what they are supposed to do or he gets rid of them, that's how.

This is EXACTLY what the Chief did...relieving those in command at Minot and replacing them...but it seems that even though we can lead a horse to water...we can't make them drink. I cannot accept that premise that the leaders and SNCO's at Minot did not teach the youngsters on the proper procedures, and now this latest group will be fired. As I said, you can't fix stupid, and I wonder if the USAF is giving pink slips to the kids playing video games on post and those who committed other violations?
 
Curt22
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:43 am

RE: Usaf Gen Mosely And Sec Air Force Asked To Resign

Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:01 pm



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 30):
Are you equating a DUI with mishandling nuclear weapons?

No...I'm simply questioning why do we "move the goal posts" of responsibilty? The errors made were done so by individuals who made bad choices. Some made the bad choice to NOT check the weapons before they drug them out of storage, others installed the weapons and didn't notice they were live, and the aircrew failed to note the live weapons on their pre-flight.

More recently we find the "Keystone Cops" are guarding these weapons at Minot and we fire guys who live 2000 miles away to "fix the problem".

At what point do we hold individuals responsible for their actions and quit blaming others simply because they are easy targets?

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: zululima and 50 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos