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kc135topboom
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Mon Jun 23, 2008 12:10 am

The RAF bought the A-330MRTT.
The RAAF bought the KC-30B
The RSAF bought a different version of the A-330MRTT
The JASDF bought the KC-767J
The Italians bought the KC-767A

But, some here think the USAF is not unique enough to buy their own version of whatever tanker they chose?
 
NYC777
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Mon Jun 23, 2008 3:48 pm

That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
TristarAtLCA
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Mon Jun 23, 2008 6:08 pm



Quoting NYC777 (Reply 252):
Here's an interesting take n the GAO actions:

The first part is well written and balanced. The second part is garbage. A myopic rather than interesting take on the issue.
If you was right..................I'd agree with you
 
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zeke
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-

Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:15 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 249):
What does that have to do with the issue of treating the suppliers differently? You're deliberately trying to change the issue. The GAO said in its report:

The statement by the GAO does not for one moment suggest that the parties were treated all that differently for the majority of the process. The full paragraph in context indicates only one area of operational utility where they were treated differently. Boeing made 75 complaints to the GAO over this RFP, only 7 of those were upheld, that was one of them.

In my view you are beating up the GAO statement, I can only guess for your motives for doing so. It is only presenting part of the picture at this stage, it is listing what complaints have been upheld, and covered the items that were not upheld in one sentence.

Boeing now has the ability to milk this until the full report has been released, not doubt severely redacted so the public cannot see the complaints that were not upheld.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
redflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:17 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 254):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 249):
What does that have to do with the issue of treating the suppliers differently? You're deliberately trying to change the issue. The GAO said in its report:

The statement by the GAO does not for one moment suggest that the parties were treated all that differently for the majority of the process.

So is that what the standard is now, they have to be treated differently for the "majority" of the process for the process to be considered unfair and detrimental to one of the parties? Whose standard is that?

Quoting Zeke (Reply 254):
In my view you are beating up the GAO statement

Hardly. There are a number of industry experts, starting with your beloved Loren Thompson - whom you were fond of quoting when the contract award was originally announced on February 29 - who have stated the GAO report was unusually scathing:

Quote:
"This is just about the most sweeping denunciation of a procurement that I have ever seen come out of the GAO.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...5657_boeing19.html?syndication=rss
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
smeg
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Tue Jun 24, 2008 9:22 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 258):

Hi Red Flyer. Thanks for your reply, nothing in your reply deserved a "mugging" as far as I am concerned. I read it, learned from it and posted my thoughts.

That surely is the point of this forum. It is a place for debate and also a place to learn from our peers. It is a shame that normally these sorts of threads turn into the usual AvB, USvEUR slanging matches.

It is strange, because whether it is the 787, A350, or indeed any aircraft from either manufacturer, these new aircraft ensure that the industry that we all love will continue on for another generation. The fact that these new aircraft seem to bring out such anger and hatred from some quarters on both sides is a real shame.

Anyhow, back to this topic. I can indeed understand where SEP was coming from, but I also felt that the post was not up to his usual standards and therefore I thought that I would challenge him on it.

Everything that I post is simply my opinion. It may be right, it may be wrong. If I am right, then I hope others can learn from it, and if I am wrong, then I expect others to correct me, and so far I have not been dissapointed!!!.

I do not expect others to agree with my opinion, but I would hope that people show the same respect to me that I try to show others, surely that is the point of this forum - respectful debate!

In that light, perhaps you can answer a question for me. Do Americans tend to see the NG/EADS product as a purely European product, with NG "tacked on" for political reasons? This is for information only, and not meant to start an argument!

Cheers
 
TropicBird
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:16 pm



Quoting Smeg (Reply 255):
In that light, perhaps you can answer a question for me. Do Americans tend to see the NG/EADS product as a purely European product, with NG "tacked on" for political reasons? This is for information only, and not meant to start an argument!

Simple answer is YES. That is how the Boeing supporters are spinning the story and it is working.
 
ktrick45
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:44 pm

Quoting Smeg (Reply 255):
In that light, perhaps you can answer a question for me. Do Americans tend to see the NG/EADS product as a purely European product, with NG "tacked on" for political reasons? This is for information only, and not meant to start an argument!

Cheers

If by "Americans," you mean the average nightly news watcher with no particular interest in aviation or military affairs, yes, exactly. The broadcast media have covered the story in the most superficial way possible, and the focus has been on the EADS involvement in the program. I personally talked to three people who didn't even know that NG was the prime contractor. One of them thought it was purely an Airbus product (and had no idea who or what EADS is), and that NG was just a US sales representative. That's the impression they got from the US mass media news coverage.

I don't think NG has been very successful in getting their message to the masses. I think that what they need to do is to focus on real, honest information on exactly what their involvement in the program is. In their press releases, they talk about "America's Tanker," and that 52%, or 60%, or whatever number they're using this week, of the aircraft will be of "US origin" and an ever-increasing number of US jobs that will be created, but they don't mention any specifics, and they never mention anything on the aircraft that's actually engineered or produced by NG. For that, you have to take the effort and look it up. By the way, I think they'd gain much more public support if they mentioned how much (and what) of the design, engineering and technology is of US origin. Presuming it's a decent amount, of course; I haven't been able to fully figure that out yet. If it's not that much, they'd do better to admit it, then focus on the importance of their integration of the technology.

[Edited 2008-06-24 16:46:30]
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Tue Jun 24, 2008 11:47 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 256):
Simple answer is YES. That is how the Boeing supporters are spinning the story and it is working.

Not everywhere. I'm not the only one to call that crybaby "Booing".

The USAF knew that all politcal Hell would break loose if they chose the NG/EADS offering. The A330 based tanker was apparently so much superior, and the USAFAF wanted it sooooo badly that they went with it. If the proposals were remotely close, they would have chose Boeing for the sake of political shenanigans and time.
 
Ken777
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:02 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 258):
Not everywhere. I'm not the only one to call that crybaby "Booing".

Interesting that people still moan about Boeing filing the protest. If they hadn't they AF would have been a clear signal that they could play the procurement game anyway they wanted - laws & regulations be damned.

The public disclosure by the GAO of the AF tactics should be a huge embarrassment of everyone involved - from SecDef on down the line. If it doesn't cause a change in how the little AF generals play their games then nothing will.

In the end I don't care which company wins. I want an acceptable plane that will replace the KC-135. And I want the minimum cost so there will be funds for other important military purchases. Those other purchases may be fighters, cargo planes, warships, tanks. Doesn't matter.

But I also want the AF procurement system cleaned up so this doesn't happen again - regardless of the eventual winner of the tanker contest. If that means major changes in personnel, so do it and do it fast. Need new laws from Congress? Pass them. The tanker situation was first a SNAFU and now it's a FUBAR.

While I would like to see a 787 - 350 competition I think the current mandate woudl rule the 787 out because of foreign content.  Smile
 
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WarRI1
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:12 am



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 258):
Not everywhere. I'm not the only one to call that crybaby "Booing".

Somehow with billions of dollars involved, I think it is a little simplistic to call Boeing a derogatory name like you did. I would have to think geographic location maybe influencing the reactions to the whole story, from the European side and the US. Where was this NG/EADS tanker going to be assembled? No further questions, I rest my case.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 2:49 am



Quoting Ken777 (Reply 259):
The public disclosure by the GAO of the AF tactics should be a huge embarrassment of everyone involved - from SecDef on down the line. If it doesn't cause a change in how the little AF generals play their games then nothing will.

Sadly...we all thought the previous scandal would have corrected this.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 259):
But I also want the AF procurement system cleaned up so this doesn't happen again

They say the third time is a charm. How many chances should the AF get and don't forget - Boeing still needs to answer who in the AF discouraged them from offering the 777? It was probably a senior AF official but which one and does Congress or NG/EADS really want to know? As a US taxpayer I certainly want to know.
 
agill
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:13 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 261):
Boeing still needs to answer who in the AF discouraged them from offering the 777?

But would the 777 really have been an option in this round anyway?
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:21 am



Quoting Agill (Reply 262):
But would the 777 really have been an option in this round anyway?

Yes, it could have been. Would have been close on the schedule, but it was certainly possible.
 
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EPA001
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:02 am

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 263):
Yes, it could have been. Would have been close on the schedule, but it was certainly possible.

No, it was never an option. The costs of the airframe, the weight of her, the way she could have performed her role in the air, and her take-off performance on a balanced air field were inadequate under the conditions of THIS RFP! And she would have meant even less booms in the air!

And the costs of converting bases to accommodate her would be even significantly higher than for the KC-45. I know this was not a part of the RFP, but it will always be kept in mind for such programs.

[Edited 2008-06-25 02:13:03]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:30 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 261):
Boeing still needs to answer who in the AF discouraged them from offering the 777?

I wonder why they haven't?  scratchchin 

Even Boeing is now back-peddling on that "issue". They've changed their tune from "The AF told us not to bid a KC-777" to "The RFP seemed to be calling for a medium sized tanker".

This article completely blows all Boeing's tanker size bitches out of the water.
http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2008...r-tanker-protest-may-muddy-waters/

Quote:
“The Air Force Request for Proposals seemed to call for a medium-sized tanker designed to meet the unique needs of today’s expeditionary Air Force.”

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:17 pm

 
MOBflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 4:28 pm



Quoting WarRI1 (Reply 260):
Somehow with billions of dollars involved, I think it is a little simplistic to call Boeing a derogatory name like you did. I would have to think geographic location maybe influencing the reactions to the whole story, from the European side and the US. Where was this NG/EADS tanker going to be assembled? No further questions, I rest my case.

You are certainly right in identifying my bias. However, somehow, with the mere facts indicating otherwise, does Boeing argue that its competitor is offering un-American aircraft, (when the part-origin and even engineering country composition differences are trivial) as well as that their competitors aircraft will ship jobs overseas? The two companies have both grossly exaggerated about the same number of jobs supported under each of their proposals.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:15 pm

Major new development. Pentagon plans to re-award contract to NG - EADS.

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2008/06/25/usaf-to-gao-drop-dead/
 
MOBflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:32 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 268):

Didn't I predict they would try to do something like that?

Anyways... GREAT NEWS!!!
 
sprout5199
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 5:50 pm



Quoting MOBflyer (Reply 269):
Didn't I predict they would try to do something like that?

Anyways... GREAT NEWS!!!

Can you say NO FUNDING?The USAF needs to walk softly right now. If they tell the GAO "drop dead", Congress will eat them alive. I could see Congress stopping all funding for all acquisitions, and calling for a review of all contracts, if they went against the GAO. And add in that this is a election year.

Dan in Jupiter
 
agill
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:00 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 268):
Major new development. Pentagon plans to re-award contract to NG - EADS.

http://leehamnews.wordpress.com/2008...dead/

Man, this circus just gets better. How big is the risk that something like the structural problems on the F-15 (well some problem of some sort) would affect the current tankers? That would really make this thread hot.
 
redflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 6:03 pm

The GAO's full report is now out:

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/311344.htm
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:07 pm

Wow, it appears from the full report that the USAF selected a tanker THAT CAN'T REFUEL SOME OF ITS PLANES with proper procedures being followed.

Wow...

It boggles the mind that they are are so happy about being able to offload a bit more fuel or carry a bit more cargo, but don't mind at all that it can't safely refuel some USAF assets.

Thank you USAF selection team! Next up can you select a bomber that can't carry bombs? We need more of this style of procurement!
 
redflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 7:26 pm



Quoting Smeg (Reply 255):
Do Americans tend to see the NG/EADS product as a purely European product, with NG "tacked on" for political reasons?

The short answer: Yes.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Alien
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:05 pm



Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 273):
Wow, it appears from the full report that the USAF selected a tanker THAT CAN'T REFUEL SOME OF ITS PLANES with proper procedures being followed.

Wow...

Absolutely wow! Add to that the fact that the GAO said that Boeing had "a substantial chance" of winning the RFP had the Air Force conducted it's evaluation properly and you have a procurement scandal on your hands.

I wonder where all the "lets buy the best tanker for the war fighter" clowns are now? It seems as if the air force followed it's RFP evaluation criteria they probably would have picked the KC-767 despite what the foreign tanker "experts" claimed here.

Now the question becomes since the KC-767 meets or exceeds all requirements and the KC-30 does not then why shouldn't the Air Force just buy KC-767s? It seems that if the Air Force must have new tankers for the "war fighter" then that is the prudent thing to do.
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 9:54 pm

According to Leeham USAF/DOD people apparently have said:

“Their finding is that the full document is quite different from the summary,” issued last Wednesday, said a source familiar with the issue. The source said Air Force leaders believe much of what was challenged is “procedural” and can be resolved without rebidding the deal.


Maybe Boeing and its backers have only seen what they wanted to see in the report..

A bit like the selection process. Boeing no doubt had filled in all the parameters in the selection model in a few days and knew the outcome but choose to ignore and add some criteria themselves (national security, patriotisme, 80 yrs off experience, french, not larger then 767, jobs, etc, etc.) and boost them in a multi million media / lobby circus.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Wed Jun 25, 2008 10:20 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 276):
A bit like the selection process. Boeing no doubt had filled in all the parameters in the selection model in a few days and knew the outcome but choose to ignore and add some criteria themselves (national security, patriotisme, 80 yrs off experience, french, not larger then 767, jobs, etc, etc.) and boost them in a multi million media / lobby circus.

B.S. Did you even read the full report?

NG's refusal to provide 2-year supports for the tankers, in itself violates the minimum requirement of the proposal. AF should fail NG's proposal even if NG's product is 10 times more superior than the Boeing's, it does not even meet the minimum requirements

Quote:
It is a fundamental principle in a negotiated procurement that a proposal that fails to conform to a material solicitation requirement is technically unacceptable and cannot form the basis for award.

It is even more questionable that the AF officials actually took NG's intentional refusal, even after repeated attempts from AF to have them revised the proposal, as an administrative error. I can smell something fishy here.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
redflyer
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:11 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 276):
Maybe Boeing and its backers have only seen what they wanted to see in the report.

Why don't you read the full report for yourself rather than pass judgment on those that have?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Ken777
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:27 am

If the AF tells the GAO to stuff it they will clearly be putting their egos above their integrity, which is very difficult for me to understand.

If the AF makes a decision to stay with their decision and justify it by shuffling bits of paper around they are going to be penny wise and pound foolish.

The AF is going to have too many needs over the next 5 to 10 years and they will lack the necessary reputation in Congress to assure Senators and Congressmen that they and their judgement can be trusted.

If the AF cannot make a resounding argument to the Legislative branch then I believe funding needs to by dramatically cut for the tanker program. I also believe that Congress should begin a vigorous investigation of this last RFP, determine exactly what happened and take appropriate actions.
 
sprout5199
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:55 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 276):
According to Leeham USAF/DOD people apparently have said:

"Their finding is that the full document is quite different from the summary," issued last Wednesday, said a source familiar with the issue. The source said Air Force leaders believe much of what was challenged is "procedural" and can be resolved without rebidding the deal.

I think Leeham was fed a line of BS on this. A few of the points could not be construed as "procedural".

Quoting XT6Wagon (Reply 273):
Wow, it appears from the full report that the USAF selected a tanker THAT CAN'T REFUEL SOME OF ITS PLANES with proper procedures being followed.

That was real damning. Could not refute the "Boeing" expert, and showed that they didn't even follow the aeriel refueling SOP's. Not good after the mess with the nuc's.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Alien
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:07 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 276):
Maybe Boeing and its backers have only seen what they wanted to see in the report..

Here is what is in the report:

Quote:
a number of errors in the Air Force’s conduct of this procurement, including the failure to evaluate proposals in accordance with the RFP criteria and requirements and to conduct discussions in a fair and equal manner. But for these errors, we believe that Boeing would have had a substantial chance of being selected for award.

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/311344.htm

Have fun spinning that. The air force would be out of their mind to try and ignore the GAO. Congress would have heads on platters and the AF would not get a dime out of them for anything else. The odds are more likely that the AF will agree wit the GAO and procure the KC-767 since it in fact would have won the competition and it would be faster and cheaper to procure.
 
osiris30
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:26 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 281):
The air force would be out of their mind to try and ignore the GAO.

As others (including yourself) have stated, that would result in congress stepping in, and that would get very ugly very quickly. Everyone knows that to flaunt the GAOs thoughts would result in massive delays to the procurement due to funding cuts. As funny as it may sound the fastest way for the AF to get tankers in the air now is try again.
I don't care what you think of my opinion. It's my opinion, so have a nice day :)
 
XT6Wagon
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:43 am



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 280):
That was real damning. Could not refute the "Boeing" expert, and showed that they didn't even follow the aeriel refueling SOP's. Not good after the mess with the nuc's.

I was shocked when the USAF "expert" after being briefed by NG on the topic couldn't explain the issue at all. Just kept saying that the dive speed was faster, never catching on why diving to run away from an overshooting fighter is kinda really stupid. Like playing on the autobahn naked stupid. Like enjoying a quick swim off the antartica coast stupid.

And clearly it was shocking enough to the GAO to put it in the final report as an actual item instead of citing a transcript in the foot notes.
 
smeg
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:23 am



Quoting Alien (Reply 281):
The odds are more likely that the AF will agree wit the GAO and procure the KC-767

Time out guys. I think that people on both side of the pond are getting a bit carried away here.

The GAO have not said that the wrong aircraft was selected, but that the selection process itself was flawed.

For those who say that the GAO cannot refute or disprove Boeings technical claims, well...... that is not what the GAO is there for. They are not in a position to refute it, and that is not in their remit.

Boeings and NG's technical claims that are referenced in the report are just those. The claims of Boeing and NG/EADS. It is up to the USAF to decide who is telling the truth in the technical department, NOT the GAO.

The GAO are an administrative, processive body, NOT a technical body. Accordingly, they can never tell either Congress or the USAF which aircraft to choose, they can just ensure that whichever one is selected, is selected in accordance to Govmt guidelines.

Therefore I think that it is a bit premature for those on either side to say that the GAO will be able to force the USAF to pick one or another, because they cannot.

(At least, that is what I was able to glean from the report!)
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:40 am


"We are comfortable and confident that the KC-45 is the best solution to the U.S. tanker requirement," Chief Executive Louis Gallois told reporters.

"The GAO has raised issues of process only. It is now up to the Pentagon to address those process issues and move the procurement forward," he said.

"We have won this competition. We are committed to sustaining this win under the leadership of our prime contractor Northrop Grumman


http://www.reuters.com/article/marketsNews/idUSL2666233420080626

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
sprout5199
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:52 am



Quoting Smeg (Reply 284):
The GAO have not said that the wrong aircraft was selected, but that the selection process itself was flawed.

But they also said that had the "process" not been flawed, Boeing would have a much better chance of winning it. To me, this sounds like the "process" was tilted in NG's favor.

Dan in Jupiter
 
Alien
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:16 pm

Louis Gallois can try to spin this any way he wants but at the end of the day it's the GAO that evaluated the process and they sais that the process was substantially tilted in EADS favor and that if it where not then in their words:

Quote:
we believe that Boeing would have had a substantial chance of being selected for award.

Thats not EADS spin or Boeing spin thats the GAO. Sorry Keesje you cannot spin this. EADS did not win the competition because it was not conducted in accordance with the selection criteria. If the AF had used the selection criteria that they wrote then Boeing probably would have won.
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:37 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 287):
Thats not EADS spin or Boeing spin thats the GAO. Sorry Keesje you cannot spin this. EADS did not win the competition because it was not conducted in accordance with the selection criteria. If the AF had used the selection criteria that they wrote then Boeing probably would have won.

I don't think so. In the GOA report you can read explicitly all criteria used by the USAF were minimum criteria, putting to big requirements to bed. I have seen nobody questioning the outcomes of the evaluation. Boeing lost on selection criteria by a healthy margin, tweaking won't help. Thats why they probably have been trying to drag in new criteria that suite them.

http://blog.al.com/pr/2007/07/KC-30_spider_chart.jpg
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
smeg
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:41 pm



Quoting Sprout5199 (Reply 286):
But they also said that had the "process" not been flawed, Boeing would have a much better chance of winning it. To me, this sounds like the "process" was tilted in NG's favor.

Hi Dan. I think that you have mis-understood my post. I was making no comment as to whether I thought that NG/EADS or Boeing should have won, or whether the USAF was correct in picking the NG/EADS aircraft despite the flawed process.

I was merely trying to emphasise that I think people here on both sides are looking at the GAO ruling the wrong way. The GAO have not said that the choice of the USAF was wrong, just that the selection process was flawed.

I would have said exactlty the same thing if Boeing has won and NG/EADS had protested!

I do not have enough knowledge of either aircraft, or indeed the USAF requirements to say anything else.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 1:54 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 288):
I don't think so. In the GOA report you can read explicitly all criteria used by the USAF were minimum criteria, putting to big requirements to bed. I have seen nobody questioning the outcomes of the evaluation. Boeing lost on selection criteria by a healthy margin, tweaking won't help. Thats why they probably have been trying to drag in new criteria that suite them.

You can also read in the GAO report that NG did not meet the minimum requirement

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:06 pm

I think it is possible everytime when you do an rfp of thousands of pages and then get proposals of thousands of pages, to find some bureaucratic inconsistancies / irregulaties.

Some people make a job looking for them. Sometimes they are even unavoidable. You must choose to be bitten by the dog or the cat.

Putting all bureaucratic & legal paperwork aside I think it is plain clear to everyone what is the best proposal. For some this result is just unacceptable, so they go for plan B.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 291):
I think it is possible everytime when you do an rfp of thousands of pages and then get proposals of thousands of pages, to find some bureaucratic inconsistancies / irregulaties.

B.S. NG was asked repeatedly specifically about the service by AF. It's not even bureaucratic at all. Even NG admitted that the refusal was intentional.

Quote:
Northrop Grumman also finally admits in its rebuttal comments that its decision to not commit to the 2-year timeframe was “intentional.”[78] Northrop Grumman’s Post‑Hearing Rebuttal Comments at 29 n.13.

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:29 pm



Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 292):
B.S. NG was asked repeatedly specifically about the service by AF. It's not even bureaucratic at all. Even NG admitted that the refusal was intentional.

Quote:
Northrop Grumman also finally admits in its rebuttal comments that its decision to not commit to the 2-year timeframe was "intentional."[78] Northrop Grumman's Post�Hearing Rebuttal Comments at 29 n.13.

Cheers,
PP

It's not like a RFP dictates what to offer. Boeing likely also choose to not fulfill every requirement strictly. As far as I have experiences thats always the case with negotiations, it's normal business.

The loosing bidder is trying to blow up every single missing point to be a meteorite. I think we are all smart enough to see through that.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:47 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 293):
It's not like a RFP dictates what to offer. Boeing likely also choose to not fulfill every requirement strictly. As far as I have experiences thats always the case with negotiations, it's normal business.

Yeah so now RFP do not set the minimum standard? And the negotiation means charging the taxpayers billions of dollars more for the service that should have been included in the proposal?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 293):
The loosing bidder is trying to blow up every single missing point to be a meteorite. I think we are all smart enough to see through that.

And the GAO agreed with the not so smart ones  Yeah sure. Or maybe we are all smart enough to actually see that AF made significant mistakes that can be qualified as metorites.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 293):
Boeing likely also choose to not fulfill every requirement strictly.

Source? Proof?

Cheers,
PP
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
dk1967
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:48 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 293):
It's not like a RFP dictates what to offer.

Hmmm. That's an interesting understanding of government procurement procedures. Is that the way they do it Keesjelandia; request a 'thingy that flies' and hope that the contractor tells them what they really need?
 
Alien
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 2:55 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 293):
As far as I have experiences thats always the case with negotiations, it's normal business.

Sorry Keesje, this is not "normal business" the air force is obligated by law to follow the selection criteria in the RFP. You don't get a choice to ignore a requirement and then negotiate later. If Boeing has met or exceeded all RFP requirements and no one has said they have not, then they should now be awarded the contract on the grounds that EADS submitted a non responsive bid. You don't get do overs. The KC-30 cannot refuel everything in the USAF inventory and they failed to demonstrate that they could implement depot level maintenance so not only would the air force have a tanker that is foreign built they would also have to rely on EADS in Europe to perform maintenance on the jet.

Choosing the EADS entry is preposterous and anyone trying to spin it any other way, given the facts, is either trolling or being a fool. There should be no second chances. Assuming the Boeing entry met or exceeded all KPPs Congress should direct the Air Force to buy the KC-767 now.
 
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keesje
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:21 pm

When I go for a new car, it has to be fast, cheap, powerfull & efficient, good looking and functional and most of all safe & reliable. Thats where it starts..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
flipdewaf
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:07 pm



Quoting Sxf24 (Reply 150):
and typically the bidder



Quoting Alien (Reply 287):
Quote:
we believe that Boeing would have had a substantial chance of being selected for award.

Thats not EADS spin or Boeing spin thats the GAO. Sorry Keesje you cannot spin this. EADS did not win the competition because it was not conducted in accordance with the selection criteria. If the AF had used the selection criteria that they wrote then Boeing probably would have won.

eh hem, please don't change "Boeing would have had a substantial chance" to "Boeing probably would have won."

I believe you have a substantial chance of being a fanboy and by your reasoning that means you probably are  wink 

I don't trust your judgment on this topic anymore Alien, you try and spin things too much for me to take it seriously.

Fred
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moo
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RE: Breaking: GAO Sustains Boeing's Protest Of KC-X

Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:57 pm



Quoting Alien (Reply 296):
The KC-30 cannot refuel everything in the USAF inventory and they failed to demonstrate that they could implement depot level maintenance so not only would the air force have a tanker that is foreign built they would also have to rely on EADS in Europe to perform maintenance on the jet.

Well, firstly the tankering system on the KC-30 as chosen by the USAF would be fitted and maintained by NG, not EADS, and the last time I looked, NG was an American company and secondly there are plenty of civilian A330 operators which seem to get along fine without EADS or Airbus getting involved in their aircrafts maintenance.

So you can only be calling NG and the USAF incompetent.
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