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sprout5199
Posts: 1681
Joined: Sat Feb 26, 2005 8:26 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 1:14 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 50):
I don't think so. between 1977 and 1981, we, in tankers were getting 40 hours of flying time per quarter. Those 40 hours every 3 months were expected to maintane full profiency. It didn't. The class A accident rate in the USN and USAF sored. The accident rate for the KC-135 hit an all time high of 2.25 per 100,000 hours. Under Carter, US Military death rates because of training accidents were at the highest in history.

And was that due to the training(of lack of) or the quality of the people?How about the introduction of new equipment? Or the change from a draft to an all volunteer military or that now started to actually train the way they fight? ? I don't know about the "military" during the Carter admin(neither do you--unless you are 50+ years), but I do know that the ship I was stationed on was ordered in 1977, laid down in 1979 and commissioned in 1981. What better way to cut a budget than to cut ships? I do remember the unemployed people here in Jupiter, I remember my dad thanking God he had a job. What else was a President to do? It was a bad time in the US military, but that really had nothing to do with who was President at the time. Was Eagle Claw his fault also? It was a different world back then, but people still say it was all Carter's fault.
Just to keep on thread--if you want this discussion lets start another one--how Carter saved the US or something
Dan in Jupiter
 
XT6Wagon
Posts: 2729
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2007 4:06 pm

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:04 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 47):
As for our troops murdering people, 7 of the 8 Marines charged in Hadthta, have been found innocent by US Military Coyrts Marshals, the 8th Marine will probibly get the charges dropped.

I was specificly refering to Blackwater and other contractors who operate with no checks on thier actions. AS far as 99% of the world outside the US they are the same as our actual troops in thier eyes. Which is very sad for our troops who are under paid, over worked, and catch all the shit from the thugs at the contractors.

It boggles my mind that we have done NOTHING to these people for all thier crimes, nevermind continuing to make billionares out of some of them.
 
silentbob
Posts: 1615
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2006 1:26 pm

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:31 am



Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):

I have seen no suggestion from the GAO that NG knew they were being treated any differently,

Nor have I, it's not fair to assume facts that are not in evidence

Quoting Zeke (Reply 32):
neither have I see anything to suggest that the USAF knew at the time they were treating parties differently to the detriment of the process.

How could they not know that they were skewing the competition via their actions? There's no way to "prove" what they knew or didn't know with the limited facts available, but there's no way anyone could accidentally skew a competition so much. If they could, they were promoted far above their cognitive abilities would dictate.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 49):
I'm certain NG knew precisely what was going on and, as time may yet prove with the pending investigations, they may have had an active role in it.

It's hard to draw that conclusion given the available information. It's entirely possible, as well as plausible, but not a fair accusation without more proof.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 10125
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 4:27 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 47):
He vetoed those bills because of all the needless pork projects the worthless Democrats added to those bills, and you know it.

Some "pork" is a joke, but some is more than a little important. A lot of our road infrastructure comes from pork, and does some of the money to improve levees. It's considered port because the politicians work together - they help each other get something of value for their state.

And then there is the money side. Projects that require hiring people - moving them from unemployment payments, food stamps, Medicaid (all government money going out) to workers paying income taxes, paying Social Security (15.3% combined with the employer) and increasing their buying which adds more tax revenue down the line. Companies getting the pork not only pay the employees they pay Workers Comp, their half of SS/Medicare, and, wonders of wonders, income taxes from the profits they make on the project. And lets not forget the income taxes on the management salaries. And the list goes on. It would take a smart economist to actually what percentage of pork spending is actually the government moving money from the left pocket to the right pocket.

There is also an interesting read on the Cuban Missile Crisis where only one worthless Democrat was a softy - certainly not a highly experienced military man like McCain. If you're interested in military matters it's worth a read:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2595.html?sid=ST2008062101260&pos=
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
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RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:17 am



Quoting Silentbob (Reply 53):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 49):
I'm certain NG knew precisely what was going on and, as time may yet prove with the pending investigations, they may have had an active role in it.

It's hard to draw that conclusion given the available information.

As you say, given the "available information", it might be hard to draw that conclusion. However, we don't have all of the available information. I would say we, the public, have only seen the tip of the information. Time will tell. But it is looking a lot like the 2002 tanker RFP and all of the ensuing fallout.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
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zeke
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RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 12:56 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 49):
As you say, YOU have not seen any suggestion. However, the GAO report was so scathing in its findings with regards to the disparate treatment of the two suppliers I'm certain NG knew precisely what was going on and, as time may yet prove with the pending investigations, they may have had an active role in it.

The GAO were not as "scathing" as you suggest, the GAO considered 75 complaints from Boeing and upheld ONLY 7.

To me that means over 90% of what Boeing has been saying has been found by the GAO as being unfounded/unsupported by fact, and doing nothing more than delaying he tankers to the USAF.

A number of a.netters and the press are having a field day at the moment, all we have to work with is a 3 page statement by the GAO, it is a response to the Boeing protest, it is slated at the Boeing complaint. For all we know NG were also treated indifferently during the process unfairly, as that does not form part of the Boeing complaint, the GAO would not rule on it.

I await for the full report by the GAO to be released, no doubt Boeing is going to clean the document as much as possible so it leave as little trace as possible of the GAO finding the vast majority of their complaints unfounded. On the other hand I am sure NG will want as much fact to remain as possible for the public to see, so everyone can see why the 68 of the 75 Boeing complaints were not upheld.

Be careful what you ask for, next will be a suggestion for a fly off between types, NG is ready to go with a couple of frames ready for conversion, Boeing has not even got their design finished.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 2:30 pm

Quoting Zeke (Reply 55):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 49):
As you say, YOU have not seen any suggestion. However, the GAO report was so scathing in its findings with regards to the disparate treatment of the two suppliers I'm certain NG knew precisely what was going on and, as time may yet prove with the pending investigations, they may have had an active role in it.

The GAO were not as "scathing" as you suggest,

As I just showed you in the other thread, your beloved Loren Thompson that you've been so fond of quoting has even stated the GAO report was pretty bleak in its findings:

Quote:
"This is just about the most sweeping denunciation of a procurement that I have ever seen come out of the GAO.



http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...5657_boeing19.html?syndication=rss

Quoting Zeke (Reply 55):
the GAO considered 75 complaints from Boeing and upheld ONLY 7.

Where did you get that number from? Regardless of how many complaints Boeing filed, there WERE sufficiently egregious errors made. The errors found by GAO were not minor by any means. By way of example, think of this as the minimum equipment list on the planes you fly. You can have a number of inoperative items on your plane and still fly, but it takes only one on the MEL to ground you.

In any event, I don't think the GAO report upheld 7 specific grievances of Boeing's; those 7 paragraphs were general areas of problems, which may very well have incorporated multiple errors raised by Boeing.

Quoting Zeke (Reply 55):
I await for the full report by the GAO to be released, no doubt Boeing is going to clean the document as much as possible so it leave as little trace as possible of the GAO finding the vast majority of their complaints unfounded.

I'm sure if NG/EADS had the chance they would, too. But, fortunately for me, a U.S. Government taxpayer, they can only "clean" items that pertain to proprietary information. I, too, await the full GAO report; not to see the full extent of the corruption permeating the process, but to see what your next excuses will be.  

[Edited 2008-06-24 07:51:44]
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
Ken777
Topic Author
Posts: 10125
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:24 pm



Quoting Zeke (Reply 55):
The GAO were not as "scathing" as you suggest, the GAO considered 75 complaints from Boeing and upheld ONLY 7.

That would depend on what standards are set. The standards set at any of the US military academies are rather high - far higher than, say, Berkley. Officers wearing stars are expected to be at least that minimum. If I were an AF general involved in the selection I think I would be planning my retirement, as soon as getting over the embarrassment of reading it - and knowing fellow officers were reading it.

SecDef also expects better standards. At least this one does - no telling about the previous one. I don't believe he was happy about being told of the GAO decision - or reading about it in the papers. As for Big George & Little Dick - I doubt if they really care one way or another.
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:54 pm

Interesting take from the Teel Group:

http://www.leeham.net/filelib/Aboulafia08-06letter.pdf

As has been discussed in several threads, the GAO report did not do what Boeing really needed it to do - say the 767 was a better airplane. Aboulafia lays it out well:

"Despite its moral victory and the vindication of the KC-767, Boeing still faces an uphill battle. Disregarding the oafish political pressure on the Air Force to choose the KC-30, and despite the service’s royal screw-ups, the service had its reasons for selecting the KC-30. Northrop/EADS is in a good position to keep the contract, albeit with a 2-3 year delay. EADS has much less tanker experience than Boeing, but the KC-30 is a good aircraft, and if DoD wants extra lift (and not just a tanker) the KC-30 would be its choice. Given the Air Force’s CSAR-X/KC-X “bigger is better” approach, they might want that extra lift.

"Also, the weak link in Boeing’s protest is their contention that if they had known the Air Force wanted a bigger plane, they would have bid the 777. The 777 is likely too big for the requirement. In short, the KC-30 is in a good size niche, and Boeing doesn’t have an equivalent. If the Air Force had acted correctly and communicated its changed requirements to Boeing, it’s possible that Boeing couldn’t have done much about it."

Aboulafia has more faith in the US Congress than I do. I believe Congress is buying Boeing's "our's is a US airplane while their's is a foreign airplane" despite the fact that the difference is 20%. It would be best if Congress immediately came out and said we don't care what the facts are, we are only going to fund the 767.
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: AF To Seek New Tanker Bids Per Outgoing Boss

Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:49 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 58):
the GAO report did not do what Boeing really needed it to do - say the 767 was a better airplane.

The GAO can't do that.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.

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