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Mortyman
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Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:04 pm

Moscow Times reports that the Russian defence will order 6 new aircraft carriers plus several smaller ships to support them. They will start the build in 4 years.

The planned systems will work in close connection with Russia's military sattelite systems, airforce and aiforce systems and resources, says the supreme commander of the navy Vladimir Vysotskij.

The comment was made at the Russian navy day.


The aircraft carriers will be deployed to the Northern fleet and the Pacific fleet.

It's the first time since the fall of the Soviet union that Russia wants to build aircraft carriers.


Today, Russia only has one aircraft carrier, the «Admiral Kutznetsov» wich was docked in Murmansk for many years, but in the last few years been operating during military exsercises again.


The Russian admiral also informed that a modernisation of the strategic nuclear submarines of the Borey class. These will include the ballistic missile Bulava

( NTB )


Norwegian newspaper quoting Moscow Times:

https://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/non_aviation/post.main
 
sv7887
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:07 pm

Hi All,
Now this isn't going to be a very popular comment here, but kudos to Russia for getting back on their feet. I'd rather have the Russians as a rival than crackpot dictatorships with Nuclear Weapons who support terrorists.

Russia is an important counter to China and I for one am glad they are rising again. The world works best when there are checks and balances.

-Sam
 
baroque
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:11 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
I'd rather have the Russians as a rival than crackpot dictatorships with Nuclear Weapons who support terrorists.

You mean the US love for Sarkosi was that shortlived?
 
sv7887
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:13 pm



Quoting Baroque (Reply 2):
Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
I'd rather have the Russians as a rival than crackpot dictatorships with Nuclear Weapons who support terrorists.

You mean the US love for Sarkosi was that shortlived?

hahaha..I was never a fan of Nicholas, but I hardly speak for the US anyway. A lot of good things came out of the rivalry with the Russians, the Space Race to name one of them. I think competition is good. It brings out the best in people.
 
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nighthawk
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:16 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
Now this isn't going to be a very popular comment here, but kudos to Russia for getting back on their feet.

the question is, are they back on their feet?

Russia need to rebuild their military and renew their hardware, and building new carriers will certainly give their manufacturing industry a boost and create jobs, but I wonder if there could be better ways of spending this investment that would have a far greater effect?

How are things in Russia these days, especially manufacturing and the economy?
 
baroque
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:49 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
I was never a fan of Nicholas,

I just have to ask is that Nicholas S or Nicholas Ts(ar)?

Well I am not a great fan of either. Although I have just been reading Nickies efforts to prevent WWI and I almost warm to him. There was an amazing set of Nicky to Willie telegrams, and fairly obviously neither had a clue what was happening.

Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):
How are things in Russia these days, especially manufacturing and the economy?

Oil production has put them in a fairish old (meaning new) financial position. Not to mention of course trying to reef foreign oil concessions out from under the feet of the likes of BP. So parts are just fine, but just how the average Russian is doing ....... ??

But it does look as if they are using some of the money to crank their industry back up again. Question is what will it be making?
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 3:55 pm



Quoting Nighthawk (Reply 4):
How are things in Russia these days, especially manufacturing and the economy?

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k457/mamluk/800px-Russian_economy_since_fall_of.png
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
baroque
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:22 pm


1996 18.52 1997 18.23 1998 12.21

1999 17.25


Just in case I need to give them, also Dubai.

2004 33.64 2005 49.35 2006 61.50

2007 68.19

So you can imagine when Beau comes up with the 2008 data it will be going quite well for Mother Russia!

Ed: put up an incorrect set of years!

[Edited 2008-07-28 09:24:39]
 
Mortyman
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:23 pm

Russia is using their new wealth on modernizing it's fighters, submarines, nukes and ships. They are still far from using the money that the USA is using on military, however I don't think that Russia is to be underestimated.


There is alot of things happening in the arctic and Barents regions. Oil, gaz and if the polar cap melts, new transportation ways will open. This is an area of the world where several countries have interests: Russia, Norway, england, USA, Australia, New Zealand, EU. Where there is resourses there is usually conflict.

What the future will bring, is uncertain.
 
baroque
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:26 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
Australia,

We are interested Morty but I think we will give the Arctic a bit of a swerve (a miss). Big grin
 
dragon6172
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:37 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 3):
I think competition is good. It brings out the best in people.

I agree. The problem will be convincing average Americans its a competition worth supporting. People are worried about upgrading their iPhones and the latest Lindsey, Paris, and Britney news, and they do not want to be bothered with our old foe Russia standing back up for some more rounds.
Phrogs Phorever
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:44 pm

A renewed military build-up by Russia, lead by a former KGB head, is not what the world needs right now.

Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?
 
sv7887
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 4:55 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 10):
I agree. The problem will be convincing average Americans its a competition worth supporting. People are worried about upgrading their iPhones and the latest Lindsey, Paris, and Britney news, and they do not want to be bothered with our old foe Russia standing back up for some more rounds.

Thank god someone else sees it!!!!!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
A renewed military build-up by Russia, lead by a former KGB head, is not what the world needs right now.

Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?

I can understand your point of view, but who's worse them or the Islamic extremists? At least the Russians don't fly planes into building and behead innocent civilians on television. And at least it's an enemy we know rather than some Taliban idiot sitting in a cave somewhere!
 
Arrow
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:05 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
This is an area of the world where several countries have interests: Russia, Norway, england, USA, Australia, New Zealand, EU. Where there is resourses there is usually conflict.

OK, I give up. You appear to be referring to the Arctic. How do England, Australia and New Zealand make your list of "interests," but Canada doesn't? Did we sell something without my knowledge? A swap with the US for Hawaii, maybe?
Never let the facts get in the way of a good story.
 
Beaucaire
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:17 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
A renewed military build-up by Russia, lead by a former KGB head, is not what the world needs right now.

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k457/mamluk/Image-MilitaryexpenditurepercentofG.png


Worldwide % of GNP for defense -spendings
Russia is not that eager ruining it's economy if compared to the 460 Billion $ budget in 2007 for the Pentagon..
Please respect animals - don't eat them...
 
Mortyman
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:18 pm



Quoting Arrow (Reply 13):
OK, I give up. You appear to be referring to the Arctic. How do England, Australia and New Zealand make your list of "interests," but Canada doesn't? Did we sell something without my knowledge? A swap with the US for Hawaii, maybe?

I'm sorry. I am very aware of Canada's interest in this area. A mistake on my part not to mention your country. There is proabably a few countries in South America too, that has interest in this area.
 
L410Turbolet
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:39 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
I'd rather have the Russians as a rival than crackpot dictatorships with Nuclear Weapons who support terrorists.

I don't think it's a matter of choice. Unfortunately. The chances are pretty high you will have neostalinist Russia AND crackpot dictatorships like Pakistan, Iran as rivals. Plus China, of course.
 
GDB
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 5:53 pm

Well considering they never had that many carriers, (if we mean actually operational fixed wing ones), at the height of the USSR, I'd take this with a pinch of salt.

A lot of all this is willy waving, you have to remember that the Russian forces have been re-equipment wise, virtually in suspended animation for some 15 years.

Do we really think that all those rusting old nuke subs in ports, (as well as many other naval assets), are not going to be of more immediate concern?

They need also to perhaps address training and maintenance, have we forgotten what happened to their premier submarine back in 2000?
(And 5 years later, a Russian mini sub crew had to be rescued by a British team, something erased over there with the crude 'we are not at all insecure' nationalism. Because even after the loss of the Kursk , they still did not have a rescue capability half a decade later).

[Edited 2008-07-28 11:05:53]
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:58 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 17):

They need also to perhaps address training and maintenance, have we forgotten what happened to their premier submarine back in 2000?
(And 5 years later, a Russian mini sub crew had to be rescued by a British team, something erased over there with the crude 'we are not at all insecure' nationalism. Because even after the loss of the Kursk , they still did not have a rescue capability half a decade later).

Well, like you said, they have been on "suspended animation" for 15 years(remember the stories of the early 90's about how the Russian Army didn't have enough supplies to even regularly feed their own troops?) not only in re-equipement but operational, and you don't recover from it in a couple of years of economic growth.

But neither it would bode well to underestimate their industrial and technological complex. They will eventually start investing more money in it and prop it up. After all, the knowledge is still there and not that many industrial assets were lost(except for Antonov).

Serious rearming of Russia will probably start after 2010-2011, and thats when we will see if they are serious or just blowing hot air.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 8:29 pm

I wonder how the Russians will approach the design(s) in question here - another conventional-powered STOBAR carrier with a ski-jump like the Kuznetsov and Varyag (coming soon, to a People's Liberation Army Navy near you) or will they take the big step that they tried to take with Ulyanovsk, a CATOBAR full-deck nuclear-powered carrier with catapults? Will they continue the "tradition" of placing SSM mounts on their carriers as was the case with the Kievs and the Kuznetsov? Considering how little experience Russia has with carriers overall, this could make for some very interesting discussion/speculation.

Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):

The Russian admiral also informed that a modernisation of the strategic nuclear submarines of the Borey class. These will include the ballistic missile Bulava

A modernization? Those boats are still being built - it's a little early to modernize them, especially considering the lead boat only was launched last year and commissioned this year although it's still fitting out. Beyond that, the next unit isn't expected until next year. As far as I've know they've been married with the SS-NX-30 for a year or two now. How old is the article you read, Mortyman?
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
MCIGuy
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 9:53 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 1):
Hi All,
Now this isn't going to be a very popular comment here, but kudos to Russia for getting back on their feet. I'd rather have the Russians as a rival than crackpot dictatorships with Nuclear Weapons who support terrorists.

Russia is an important counter to China and I for one am glad they are rising again. The world works best when there are checks and balances.

-Sam

OK, but maybe we're presuming much? During the Soviet years they regularly aligned themselves with potential enemies of the US and seem to be resurrecting that doctrine. We should assume that a militarily powerful CIS supporting it's "allies" would be a good thing? The message I get is the same old "any enemy of yours is a friend of ours" message.
Airliners.net Moderator Team
 
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csturdiv
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 12):
Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 10):
I agree. The problem will be convincing average Americans its a competition worth supporting. People are worried about upgrading their iPhones and the latest Lindsey, Paris, and Britney news, and they do not want to be bothered with our old foe Russia standing back up for some more rounds.

Thank god someone else sees it!!!!!

I've been seeing that for a while as well, and I call it the Dumbing Down Of Americans.
An American expat from the ORD area living and working in SYD
 
gsosbee
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?

Nothing to do with keeping tabs on the Russians, but this is under consideration as an effort to keep people focused on the nuke mission.
 
Oroka
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Jul 28, 2008 10:41 pm

Russian know-how plus Chinese manpower and growing wealth together will create a serious threat to the balance of power in the world. Sadly, this all comes down to oil, it is sucking the life out of the western world, while Asia and the Middle East are cashing in. IMO the only way to balance this is the get free of imported oil, or oil all together and suck the $ out to China and Russia.

6 carriers, associated support ships, and aircraft would be a frigging lot of $, is Russia really that well off? I know it is cool these days to run a Trillion dollar debt... but damn.
 
L-188
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:03 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?

Agree completely but not for the same reasons. That is another subject.

I do wonder if we are looking at carriers capable of handling full sized aircraft or a smaller ship more like the old US guam class that only fly helo's.....Hey they are aircraft too.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 5:24 am



Quoting L-188 (Reply 24):


I do wonder if we are looking at carriers capable of handling full sized aircraft or a smaller ship more like the old US guam class that only fly helo's.....Hey they are aircraft too.

That's what I was wondering too. My gut instinct though says full-sized aircraft on either a STOBAR or CATBAR platform. First, there's the fact that the Russians were never entirely sold on the helicopter carrier concept. After the Soviets built the two Moskva-class helicopter carriers, they were never enamored enough with the design to refine it, even though the Moskvas reportedly didn't handle well at sea. Further, the Russians have a decided disadvantage when it comes to power projection now that they only have one carrier in service that can handle fixed wing aircraft (Kiev and Minsk were both sold to the Chinese, Novorossiysk was broken up, and Admiral Gorshkov was sold to the Indians). I wouldn't be surprised if the six were split between a Kuznetsov follow-on and then maybe two units inspired by the abortive Ulyanovsk-class
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
dragon6172
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 11:11 am



Quoting Csturdiv (Reply 21):
I call it the Dumbing Down Of Americans

And we excel at it!! I know our education system leaves a bit to be desired, but a big problem with it are the students who just dont apply themselves. Taking responsibility for ones own actions is just about gone here.

The movie Idiocracy is pretty silly, but the plot and idea behind it show where the country is heading.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Flighty
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 4:41 pm



Quoting Mortyman (Reply 8):
Where there is resourses there is usually conflict.

Right, I guess this must be about the Arctic. Russia already holds enough territory for its Naval needs to be minimal... in contrast to the USA and Britain, who sort of need to rule the seas to some extent to ensure their shipping is safe (think Hawaii, Guam).

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 16):
The chances are pretty high you will have neostalinist Russia AND crackpot dictatorships like Pakistan, Iran as rivals. Plus China, of course.

Haha, agreed, it seems you have analyzed the situation well.  bigthumbsup 

Quoting GDB (Reply 17):
A lot of all this is willy waving, you have to remember that the Russian forces have been re-equipment wise, virtually in suspended animation for some 15 years.

Correct. I would not be so surprised if Russia builds 6 carriers.

But to _USE_ them operationally? For Russia, that would be a true revelation. To actually operate the equipment they have. Currently, Russia has neither the logistical know-how nor the maintenance to operate a major military. But it does have lots of broken, obsolete toys.

Fact remains that Russia has few territorial ambitions, and this might be to project power in favor of its unpalatable friends (Sudan, Cuba, N Korea) rather than do anything particularly Russian. The Russians have little to gain from a big Navy, but its weak friends are waiting for a Russian savior when the US carriers come knocking.
 
LY744
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 6:09 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
Currently, Russia has neither the logistical know-how nor the maintenance to operate a major military. But it does have lots of broken, obsolete toys.

It's not logistical know-how that the Russians are (were) lacking.


LY744.
Pacifism only works if EVERYBODY practices it
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 7:45 pm

OK, Mortyman's initial post leaves out some info.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/li...008/russia-080727-rianovosti01.htm

It appears that construction isn't slated to begin until "after 2012" and, if I'm reading this right, it's not just 5-6 carriers but support ships/escorts to go along with them. Given that the Russian Navy hasn't taken delivery of anything larger than a frigate in about ten years, this will definitely be a major undertaking.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
LMP737
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:21 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 29):
It appears that construction isn't slated to begin until "after 2012" and, if I'm reading this right, it's not just 5-6 carriers but support ships/escorts to go along with them. Given that the Russian Navy hasn't taken delivery of anything larger than a frigate in about ten years, this will definitely be a major undertaking.

Using the USN carrier programs as a benchmark it will be something that definately will not happen overnight. If you look at the first six ships of the Nimitz class from the time the first keel was laid till the sixth ship was commissioned were talking a period of twenty four years. And the US has been building carriers continuously since the late 30's so there's an expertise aready there.

So even if they were start construction in 2012 it won't be until the 2030's that all six would be in the fleet. IMO given that they are still relatively new to the carrier scene that's being optimistic.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dragon6172
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:24 pm



Quoting Garnetpalmetto (Reply 29):
OK, Mortyman's initial post leaves out some info



Quoting Mortyman (Thread starter):
Moscow Times reports that the Russian defence will order 6 new aircraft carriers plus several smaller ships to support them. They will start the build in 4 years.

Lets see.... 2008... plus four years... 2012. Double check my math Houston, but I think he had it right there in the original post. Along with a blurb about smaller support ships. I miss something?
Phrogs Phorever
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:25 pm

Quoting Flighty (Reply 27):
I would not be so surprised if Russia builds 6 carriers.

I would, if you have ever been anywhere near a Russian shipyard you would realise that building such a vessel would be very difficult with their current infrastructure.

Baltiysky Zavod are the only yard in Russia capable of constructing and launching a 100,000 ton 340m ship. Admiralty can build up to approx 70,000 ton and 270m, Sevmash are getting a 100,000 ton dry-dock but that is still some way off being completed, if it ever is.

I visit Russian yards and design centres every two months or so, I have good working relationships with people who would be part of the design and construction teams for these carriers, any mention of them is laughed off as a joke, people within the Russian shipbuilding community don't believe these ships will be built.

[Edited 2008-07-29 13:28:47]
 
dragon6172
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:44 pm



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
I would, if you have ever been anywhere near a Russian shipyard you would realise that building such a vessel would be very difficult with their current infrastructure.

Four years would seem to be a reasonable amount of time to build the required infrastructure though.
Phrogs Phorever
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:00 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 31):
Lets see.... 2008... plus four years... 2012. Double check my math Houston, but I think he had it right there in the original post. Along with a blurb about smaller support ships. I miss something?

Apologies to Mortyman - teaches me to not to doubel check a post again before replying once more.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 30):
Using the USN carrier programs as a benchmark it will be something that definately will not happen overnight. If you look at the first six ships of the Nimitz class from the time the first keel was laid till the sixth ship was commissioned were talking a period of twenty four years. And the US has been building carriers continuously since the late 30's so there's an expertise aready there.



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
Baltiysky Zavod are the only yard in Russia capable of constructing and launching a 100,000 ton 340m ship. Admiralty can build up to approx 70,000 ton and 270m, Sevmash are getting a 100,000 ton dry-dock but that is still some way off being completed, if it ever is.

I visit Russian yards and design centres every two months or so, I have good working relationships with people who would be part of the design and construction teams for these carriers, any mention of them is laughed off as a joke, people within the Russian shipbuilding community don't believe these ships will be built.

This was something else I was wondering. All previous Soviet-designed carriers were built on the Black Sea in what are now Ukranian yards. What's the largest capital vessel a Russian yard has put out, the Kirov-class?
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keesje
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:06 pm

I think the experience they build with the Kuznetsov during the last will help them in designing new ones.

Mig29K exercises. The Sukhoi's & Mig's do it without catapults:



The second bigger fighter is the Su33:



[Edited 2008-07-29 14:23:28]
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Acheron
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:44 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 35):
I think the experience they build with the Kuznetsov during the last will help them in designing new ones.

Mig29K exercises. The Sukhoi's & Mig's do it without catapults:

Mind you, the Kuznetsov was meant to operate mainly with the F-35's Granddaddy, the Yak-141 in a Fleet Air defense role. Should have looked something like this.
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6339/00clasekuznetsov2vistasfv7.jpg

The russkies designed quite a bit of carriers, excluding their Missile Cruiser/Carrier hybrids.

Project 1160
http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/6098/1972proyecto1060zd8.jpg
Studies made in the early 70's but cancelled due to technical difficulties.


Project Orel
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/4756/1972proyecto11531an6.jpg
It was going to be pretty much like an american carrier, with 70 planes between Fighters, Ground Attack jets, AEW and Helicopters. Main difference woud be that it carried its own batteries of Antiship, antisubmarine and air defense missiles. Cancelled after the death of Defense Minister Greco, main supporter of the project and because its succesors prefered smaller carriers equiped with S/VTOL aircrafts.

Project 1143.42
http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7779/01buqueproyecto114342rh1.jpg
rejected in favour of the Kuznetsov
Specs:
Displacements: 40,000t, 44,450t full.
Lenght 273m
Crew: 1200
Aircrafts: 16 Yak-38, 19 Ka-27 and 3 Ka-25.
Weapons:
2 3.9" (100 mm) Ak-100 canons.
6 SM241 double launchers, firing P-500 basalt (SS-N-12 Sandbox).
4 VLS Kinzhal (SA-N-9 Gauntlet) with 192 missiles total
8 AK-630 30mm gaitling guns
2 RBU-12000 antisubmarine mortars.

Project 1143.5 and 1143.6 Kuznetsov Class.
Original Kuznetsov distribution, using catapults.
http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/2835/00clasekuznetsovdiseoprfh6.jpg

Then should have looked like this, employing Yak-141(I know I posted it already, but just so people avoid having to scroll up).
http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/6339/00clasekuznetsov2vistasfv7.jpg

Project 1143.7 Ul’yanovsk Class.
http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/5783/claseulyanovsk01sy5.jpg
The real supercarrier, using a mix of catapults and skijumps.
Displacement: 79,500t full
Length 331.2m

Powerplant: 4 PWR Reactors, powering 4 steam turbines conected to 4 screws.

Aircrafts: 70(Su-33, MiG-29K, Su-25UTG, ka-32, Yak-44)

Weapons:
12 P-500 Granit
24 VLS Kinzhal
8 CADS- N -1/Kortik
2 Udav-1
 
greaser
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:26 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 23):
this all comes down to oil, it is sucking the life out of the western world, while Asia and the Middle East are cashing in

The longer prices stay >$100/barrel, the slower this process will become as Americans and the world desperately try to conserve and reduce dependence on oil. When a commodity become inviable, you either reduce consumption as much as possible or you find alternate products (with the exception of precious metals, etc).
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Blackbird
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Tue Jul 29, 2008 10:53 pm

Oh god, not another Cold War!

I guess we need to build 8 CVNs, and some more nuclear ballistic missile subs, and more ABM systems in case we need to nuke Russia (without getting hit back)


Andrea Kent
Should I "commit suicide", disappear without a trace, get thallium or Polonium 210 poisoning, get a heart-attack or some incurable disease or cancer you all know who to blame for it.

[Edited 2008-07-29 15:56:38]
 
Flighty
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 3:05 am



Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
I would, if you have ever been anywhere near a Russian shipyard you would realise that building such a vessel would be very difficult with their current infrastructure

Thank you for that very interesting post. Just spouting off, I have never visited a Russian shipyard. It is definitely on my list of things to do though!

Russia has historically built large _counts_ of assets without doing the real legwork required to operate them. This does not hold true for carriers. But for other things, it does. (i.e., building things for show).

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 33):
Four years would seem to be a reasonable amount of time to build the required infrastructure though.


Well... but consider the Admiral Kunetsov had its keel laid down in 1983, commissioned in 1991, launched in 1995, and is still being perfected now, 25 years after the keel was laid. It has not been easy for Russia to design and produce this aircraft carrier. Maybe they are good shipbuilders but it will take some miracles to make 6 good proper carriers any faster than the Americans do (not that this is a contest..... there is no comparison to be made!)
 
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Revelation
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:02 am



Quoting LMP737 (Reply 30):

Using the USN carrier programs as a benchmark it will be something that definately will not happen overnight. If you look at the first six ships of the Nimitz class from the time the first keel was laid till the sixth ship was commissioned were talking a period of twenty four years. And the US has been building carriers continuously since the late 30's so there's an expertise aready there.

So even if they were start construction in 2012 it won't be until the 2030's that all six would be in the fleet. IMO given that they are still relatively new to the carrier scene that's being optimistic.



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 33):
Four years would seem to be a reasonable amount of time to build the required infrastructure though.

But what about the crews?

My understanding was the old Soviet Navy staffed via conscription. Is this still in place?

Whatever method used (volunteers, conscripts), it will take a lot of crew members for 6 carriers plus all the assorted escorts and support ships for a deep blue (ice blue?) Navy. And how does one train all those new recruits?

It's my understanding that Russia is undergoing negative population growth, so it'll be hard to lure youngsters away from their new capitalistic endevours to go off and sail with the Russian Navy, no?

Won't all this mean that Russia will have to do like the US does, and design systems to reduce manpower requirements?

Just wondering...
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jetjack74
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 4:28 am



Quoting Sv7887 (Reply 12):
I can understand your point of view, but who's worse them or the Islamic extremists? At least the Russians don't fly planes into building and behead innocent civilians on television. And at least it's an enemy we know rather than some Taliban idiot sitting in a cave somewhere!

But the concern lies when the Russians are selling nuclear components to the Iranians, such as assistance in building centra-fuges

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?

The question is, do we need to revise the SALT I &II treaties?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 35):
Mig29K exercises. The Sukhoi's & Mig's do it without catapults:

Yes, but severely limits the launch capability. The F-14 and F-18 could launch without a catapult by positioning itself at the fantail of the ship and launching straight off the bow, but you'd need a clear deck like the Russians had in the videos
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dragon6172
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:37 am

Are those planes weight limited going off the ski jump? They really look like they are clawing for speed. How much ordinance could they hang under them?
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GDB
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 6:52 pm

Well one way to get around shipyard size limits, is to go the way the RN with CVF, build several 'superblocks'.
There is already an element of that in the Type 45 Destroyer construction.

But I really cannot take this whole 6 carrier thing seriously, it's not the first unlikely pronouncement they've made on arms, since Putin did that unintentionally hilarious 'butch' posing for the notorious calender.

All through the Cold War, when they were effectively running a war economy, they only got into carriers late in the day, the first effort, the Yak-30 VSTOL, was not really worth the trouble, aside from gaining experience.
The Kiev class that carried them, had their firepower in the battery of ASM's and AD systems.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 8:25 pm



Quoting GDB (Reply 43):
Well one way to get around shipyard size limits, is to go the way the RN with CVF, build several 'superblocks'.

Yes but building in that method is neither cheap or efficient, had there not been several yards competing over the ships it would have been cheaper to build them from the keel up in Belfast at Harland & Wolf, the dry-dock there is plenty big enough. Another option would have been getting DCN to build the hull then complete the fit-out in the UK. If the french eventually build PA2 it will be in one unit not in superblocks.
 
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keesje
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Wed Jul 30, 2008 10:02 pm

I wonder how the Super Hornet would do against the big Flankers with their huge radars & missiles and amazing agility. Maybe there is a performance gab.

http://www.ausairpower.net/DT-SuperBug-vs-Flanker.html
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GDB
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:55 am

KiwiRob, true, but I think the lack of recent experience at H & W in building complex warships probably mitigated against them, aside from Royal Fleet Auxiliaries, I cannot remember when they last constructed an actual warship.
DCN in France would have been politically unacceptable, plus they did not do such a brilliant job on the CDG carrier.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Thu Jul 31, 2008 10:01 am

Remember these warships are being constructed to commercial standards so they are in no way as complex as a Nimitz class carrier. I'm sure H&W could do the job with help, besides when was the last time a ship of this size was built in the British Isles and certainly none of the Aircraft Carrier Alliance group have ever built anything like this either.
 
astuteman
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Thu Jul 31, 2008 12:32 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 11):
A renewed military build-up by Russia, lead by a former KGB head, is not what the world needs right now.

Does the USAF need to re-activate SAC?

Hope not - they'll need some more tankers...  duck 

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 33):
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
I would, if you have ever been anywhere near a Russian shipyard you would realise that building such a vessel would be very difficult with their current infrastructure.

Four years would seem to be a reasonable amount of time to build the required infrastructure though.

 checkmark 
We're going through this now for CVF. We've just started breaking ground in Barrow for the CVF Centre block construction hall... it will be operational in less than 2 years..
(Was actually reviewing programme and costs for this 2 weeks ago, for a different reason..  Smile )

Skills and Experience will be a much greater issue

Quoting GDB (Reply 43):
Well one way to get around shipyard size limits, is to go the way the RN with CVF, build several 'superblocks'.

Way to build anything these days...  bigthumbsup 

Demands even more skills though - ask Boeing.....  Wink

Rgds
 
baron95
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RE: Russia To Build 6 New Aircraft Carriers

Mon Aug 04, 2008 5:06 am

Good Luck. Let them try. As the British and the French have/are finding out, building big modern carriers and their air wings is not that easy. And that is with all the help from the US, including letting their planes (Rafale) train on our carriers and in one case provideing the planes (F35) for the air wing.

I'm not saying the Russian's can't do it. They can. But they will have lots of problems, it is going to take them twice as long and cost them 3x to 4x more than they think. It will then cost them a fortune to maintain, upgrade, operate, protect those carriers.

They face a steep learning curve ahead.

Again.... good luck.
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