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keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14785
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Thu Oct 16, 2008 11:45 pm

Maybe hawks thought it was only delaying tactics of evil people that may be destroyed, forgetting they create a new generation of terrorists / freedom fighters / angry young man that want revenge.

Apartheid is gone, Vietnam flies 777's these days and Beirut is being rebuild, PLO is no longer the main enemy. Check your facts & be open for change.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-04-30-watchlist_N.htm

 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
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RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:55 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
I think every society has their hawks, in general

- they think they own universal truths / moral values
- as a result they don't listen / only hear/see what suits them
- they thing others can only succeed if they adjust to their own values
- others / don't understand / are against them
- they think they have the right / obligation to export their ideas with violence if needed

Irans president seems to fit at least some of these specifications.

Keesje, in the US, a Hawk is someone who aggressively supports the use of military force for defense, like President Reagan or Senator Nunn. Your definition here, is someone who is a Dictator, like Hitler, Chavez, or Ahmadinejad (I pronounce it as I-need'-a-job) who threatens other nations.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
Follow the news. Some think Europe is pulling the world out of a crises caused by the USA.. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59256

The world's economic crisis has changed significantly since this 18 March 2008 story. Back then, no one really understood the depth and breath of the crisis. Today, 17 October 2008, we know more information, how it began, and which countries are effected more than others. We also know which country has an economy still strong enough to lead the rest of the world out of the crisis. What we don't know is how long it will take.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 144):
Everyday I believe more and more the new tanker is going to be an upgraded KC-135E due to costs..

Maybe Boeing should come up with a proposal, the Kc767 seems further away then ever.

The KC-767 is just as far away, right now, from being a USAF airplane, as the KC-30 is. There are a lot of companies out there that can submit a proposal to upgrade the KC-135Es, including PEMCO, Boeing, NG, LM, and others.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 146):
IMO, a large part of the differences go back to the "Right to bear arms" issue.

Most Americans feel that Joe Public should be able to carry Guns.

Most Europeans think that guns should be carried by the Army and Police.

I think that this has bearing on public attitudes in general.

I know that the Swiss have/had guns at home, but this in linked to their military obligations.

There is nothing wrong with Joe Public being able to own or carry guns, so long as he is a law abiding citizen. Most Americans, and Europeans who own guns, own them for hunting. In both the US and EU, anyone has a right to choose not to own guns. Owning a gun does not make anyone a criminal, or, in 99,995% of all gun owners have any thought of using it in a crime. Criminals, in both the US and EU ignore laws that apply to guns or gun ownership. Keeping guns away from criminals is a failed policy, as criminals will get a gun, if they want one.

Even gun accidents are no different than an automobile accident. Both are tragic, and there was no intent before the accident.

The US right to bear arms is fundamental to the way Americans think of themselves, and rights. It is also a check and balance against the over use of the government, and for self defense. The US rights to have guns is far different than those of the Swiss.

A gun is no different than a car, airplane, or any other machine that can kill you if improperly used. The gun, car, etc. does not kill you, the person shooting or driving does.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 148):
Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 147):
Not a clue Keesje. The bad guys are going after you and your way of life whether you extend them an olive branch or not. If you want to keep them in their box and away from yours, you have to take the initiative.

Then we respectfully disagree. We should be brave enough to change our minds & go on.

We should also be smart enough to avoid making passivises like Neville Chamberlain the head of a significant country, like the UK did. Just look what happened, just 1 year after his "peace for our time" speech on 30 September 1938.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peace_for_our_time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neville_Chaimberlain

Quoting Keesje (Reply 150):
Maybe hawks thought it was only delaying tactics of evil people that may be destroyed, forgetting they create a new generation of terrorists / freedom fighters / angry young man that want revenge.

Apartheid is gone, Vietnam flies 777's these days and Beirut is being rebuild, PLO is no longer the main enemy. Check your facts & be open for change.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2...N.htm

Can't you get something that is current? This story is from April.

True, the PLO is no longer the main threat to peace in the middle east, but what about Hezbollah, Iran, or al Qeada? What about the Palestine celebrations, in the streets, after the 9/11 attacks on NYC, PA, and the Pentagon?
 
A342
Posts: 4017
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2005 11:05 pm

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:13 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
I think every society has their hawks, in general

- they think they own universal truths / moral values
- as a result they don't listen / only hear/see what suits them
- they thing others can only succeed if they adjust to their own values
- others / don't understand / are against them
- they think they have the right / obligation to export their ideas with violence if needed

Irans president seems to fit at least some of these specifications.

Keesje, in the US, a Hawk is someone who aggressively supports the use of military force for defense, like President Reagan or Senator Nunn. Your definition here, is someone who is a Dictator, like Hitler, Chavez, or Ahmadinejad (I pronounce it as I-need'-a-job) who threatens other nations.

Most of the points that Keesje lists do indeed apply to the current US administration.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
A gun is no different than a car, airplane, or any other machine that can kill you if improperly used. The gun, car, etc. does not kill you, the person shooting or driving does.

Jeez, cars and most other machines aren't designed to kill. Guns exist for exactly that purpose.
 
texl1649
Posts: 1957
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:04 pm

The french model of diplomacy hasn't so far quelled their immigration/neighbor's feelings;

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/10/021801.php
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:34 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 150):
Apartheid is gone, Vietnam flies 777's these days and Beirut is being rebuild, PLO is no longer the main enemy. Check your facts & be open for change.

Yes Vietnam files 777's but the common folk in the country work for the benefit of the State and have no freedom of expression.

The picture was an Israeli PM and Arafat. Another broken treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians; Beirut has noting to do with the picture. The PLO and Hamas are enemies of each other and Israel.

Apartheid is gone; crime rated is up, and South Africa is headed in the same direction as Zimbabwe.

Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.
 
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keesje
Topic Author
Posts: 14785
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:11 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
We also know which country has an economy still strong enough to lead the rest of the world out of the crisis. What we don't know is how long it will take.

EU, China? They have hard cash but I think the time has gone those entities will send money to others to spend the way they used too.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
Most Americans, and Europeans who own guns, own them for hunting.

400 million hunting weapons is a lot in a country where the majority lives is cities and another percentage is very old or young.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
The picture was an Israeli PM and Arafat. Another broken treaty between the Israelis and Palestinians

Rabin was a truly legendary general, socialist PM brave enough to defeat his own prejudgements, a Nobel winner killed by a true young hawk believing he was protecting his country.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Beirut has noting to do with the picture. The PLO and Hamas are enemies of each other and Israel.

Beirut has been the ME hotsspot for decades, the place the battle used to be fought.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.

We have no US troops on our soil. Many of our troops are fighting a war on terrorism in the South of Afghanistan. (not that I suggest anykind of personal authority because of it.) http://nl.youtube.com/results?search...ery=dutch+troops&search_type=&aq=f
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:43 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 137):
The good news is this will backfire in the form of a major military catastrophe

like those of recent years?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 144):
It seems to me the Hawks are the only ones with foresite enough to see problems down the road with rough countries.

from which we pick the fruits every day now?

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 144):
Even that may not happen as the economic crisis is worse in Europe than it is in the US.

Well dear friend, since I'm spending some time on your side of the pond right know I can tell thats not really the case. I actually met a lot of people looking for jobs in Europe.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
Militairy / defense / weapons is less a part of our culture I guess.

Or has been more part of it then has been good for us. The longer I've been here (Texas) I can tell that our (Dutch, and probably more European) main frame of reference is different, which is the second world war. The only event that comes remotely close on US soil is probably General Grant's scorged earth tactics as he was coming down the southern states (which is why a lot of southeners still feel negative about the north). You have to understand that up until the youngest generation we all have a direct source of what happened during WWII overhere (our source being our parents and grand parents).

You won't see a lot of military parades overhere, not because we're not proud of our military (Dutch population has a very high asteem of our armed forces nowadays) but it's something the facists did a lot. I'm not judging anyone else's armed forces parading on any event, just trying to explain how some things that seem trivial are perceived in our country.

Apart from the trauma of the holocaust and what militarism and totalitarism can do, another lesson we DID learn was to keep your armed forces at a proper level. Currently you might say that the traditional "enemy" of the Dutch are the germans (there is of course a football element in there). Just before the invasion we NEVER really expected they would actually attack us (nor did the majority of the German population want that) as we had a very strong and friendly history for hundreds of years. Being too little prepared too late for war was a mistake we paid dearly for.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 144):
Everyday I believe more and more the new tanker is going to be an upgraded KC-135E due to costs.

Well, I'm 100% agreeing with you there! (take a screenshot!)

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 146):
Most Americans feel that Joe Public should be able to carry Guns.

Living in Texas for a couple of months has actually raised my understanding for that opinion. A lot of people live in remote area's and when you are here you see it's not really a big deal. People are so extremely friendly here and all have guns, which makes you think why they need them in the first place  Wink. It's all about your environment. I DO think that in a city as LA or NY it still is a bad idea as it would not work in say Holland.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 147):
Not a clue Keesje. The bad guys are going after you and your way of life whether you extend them an olive branch or not. If you want to keep them in their box and away from yours, you have to take the initiative.

well, some of those initiatives have really paid off haven't they?

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.

I think that remark is totally out of place. Not perceiving the right threats at the right time has made the current security situation in Europe a LOT worse. I think you should tone down a little.

The only way to get out of this mess is if all allies work together (and yes, we ARE taking responsibility in helping out, so are France and Germany, who were most crticial of the Iraq invasion).

BTW, I think with the next admistration there will be a lot less warmongering "hawks" as keesje calls them, as I think that both candidates are intelligent and straightforward (OK, the're still politicians) in their ethics.

BTW, who's seeing the premiere of Oliver Stone's W. tonight?
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:30 am



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
well, some of those initiatives have really paid off haven't they?

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.

I think that remark is totally out of place. Not perceiving the right threats at the right time has made the current security situation in Europe a LOT worse. I think you should tone down a little.

The only way to get out of this mess is if all allies work together (and yes, we ARE taking responsibility in helping out, so are France and Germany, who were most crticial of the Iraq invasion).

BTW, I think with the next admistration there will be a lot less warmongering "hawks" as keesje calls them, as I think that both candidates are intelligent and straightforward (OK, the're still politicians) in their ethics.

BTW, who's seeing the premiere of Oliver Stone's W. tonight?

I believe that providing freedom to two countries whose leaders were deeply involved in state supported terrorism that led to a direct attack on US soil is a step forward. The US provides the majority of the commitment to NATO so, yes, I can say Keesje (and F27Friendship) the US is providing the Netherlands with an umbrella of security. (Not to mention the two times the US rescued Europe which I realize you want to forget. I have a problem with that since two of my father's brothers and one of my wife's mother's brothers were killed in the fighting in Europe.)

Unfortunately the help in Iraq has been limited to the UK, Australia, Japan, The Czech Republic and Poland. In Afghanistan, it sure would be nice if everyone would live up to the NATO Charter and provide the requested ground troops where the fighting is.

We are never going to agree on this as the sacrifice for the greater good of the whole has been unequal. As I said initially, why exposure your population to the vengeance of those who wish death upon you, and who have carried out their beliefs? Better to take the fight to them.

Oliver Stone is a figment of his own mind, and his fiction is a bore.
 
Alien
Posts: 416
Joined: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:00 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:45 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.

Why should we? What has it gotten us in the past?

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
EU, China? They have hard cash but I think the time has gone those entities will send money to others to spend the way they used too.

The EU just spent over a trillion Euros trying to bail out their banks and the Chinese still have a billion people living in poverty and a relatively small economy so nope, not them. I will give you a hint. The printing press is in Washington and they make these little green pieces of paper with pictures of dead presidents on it. They also have the largest single economy in the world.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
400 million hunting weapons is a lot in a country where the majority lives is cities and another percentage is very old or young.

Try more like around 275 million. You also may want to know that there are an estimated 80 million firearms in private hands in Europe. So what is your point?
True, the study was done by a bunch of Euros with an agenda but even their number is much lower than the number you pulled out of thin air.
http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-news/942388/posts

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
We have no US troops on our soil.

Don't make me laugh. The US through NATO has guaranteed your security for the past 60 years. In fact there are still over 60 thousand American troops stationed in Europe and our military is still very much equipped and trained to fight in Europe.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
Many of our troops are fighting a war on terrorism in the South of Afghanistan.

Yes, Keesje, many in the Netherlands (unlike much of the rest of Europe) get it. Islamic radicals want to destroy all liberal democracies, not just the US and Israel. They hate your way of life just as much as they hate ours. The hate the fact that someone in the Netherlands can poke fun at Allah and not be beheaded. So yes, fighting in Afghanistan is called en lighted self interest.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
like those of recent years?

I agree, Bosnia was looking pretty ugly until the US stepped in.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
Well dear friend, since I'm spending some time on your side of the pond right know I can tell thats not really the case. I actually met a lot of people looking for jobs in Europe.

You have been looking in the wrong places. EU27 unemployment rate was 6.7%.back in March, before the present difficulties. The US unemployment rate in September was 6.1%. Perhaps you are hanging around the wrong people?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/pls...2008_MONTH_04/3-30042008-EN-BP.PDF
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationwo...economy6-2008sep06,0,3121791.story

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
well, some of those initiatives have really paid off haven't they?

Yes, they have. There have been no attacks on US soil or against US interests (aside from Iraq and Afghanistan in over seven years. That is a fact and that is directly attributable to taking the war to the enemy.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
I think that remark is totally out of place. Not perceiving the right threats at the right time has made the current security situation in Europe a LOT worse. I think you should tone down a little.

It is not at all out of line in fact it is something that must be said more often. We did perceive the right threats, it is Europe with it's second guessing and in some cases out right interference that is out of line. Frankly the last thing I want to hear is some whiny Euro telling my president (whoever that may be) how to keep me secure. If you don't think what we are doing then don't bother to help. Don't however expect us to show too much interest in Europe in return. The fact speak for themselves. Overthrowing the Baathist regime in Iraq was a huge success. Driving Al Queda in Afghanistan underground and killing of many of them has been a huge success. Been many terrorist incidents lately? . It is in fact you who are out of line. Perceive your own bloody threats and take care of them yourself if you don;t like how we do things. Oh, by the way, have fun dealing with the Russians and Iranians.



Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
The only way to get out of this mess is if all allies work together

Yeah, well start cooperating more and complaining less.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
BTW, I think with the next admistration there will be a lot less warmongering "hawks" as keesje calls them,

If you call taking preventive action to protect your country war mongering then there really is no sense bothering with you as an ally.
 
Ken777
Posts: 10197
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:34 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
There is nothing wrong with Joe Public being able to own or carry guns, so long as he is a law abiding citizen.

When I was in the 5th grade a kid in our class lost his 13 year old brother to a gun that wasn't loaded. Even at that age (about 10) I was able to understand the potential risk of a gun in the house and have stayed "gun free" all my adult life because of that one accident.

Now I did go through Navy boot camp where we were given 3 or 5 rounds (I forget the number) to shoot with a .22 rifle and when serving on the USS Long Beach we were given instruction on the 45 automatic by the guys in MarDet. Got 3 rounds there and I hit the target every time, mainly because we were shooting at the ocean.  Smile

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Yes Vietnam files 777's but the common folk in the country work for the benefit of the State and have no freedom of expression.

Vietnam will take years to fully develop. My brother-in-law is a medical scientist in Australia and has joined several medical groups that go there for a few weeks to help in the hospitals. He always found it a rewarding experience and everyone he worked with were genuine and have become friends over the years. The country is making advances, but it is going to take time.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
We should also be smart enough to avoid making passivises like Neville Chamberlain the head of a significant country, like the UK did. Just look what happened, just 1 year after his "peace for our time" speech on 30 September 1938.

And then there is the other side of the coin where the Bush/Cheney/Rumsfield team rushed into Iraq where there were no WMD stockpiles. The challenge is to find the balance somewhere between those two situations and, hopefully, avoid military intervention. Sometimes it is going to be necessary, but I believe that the US should only get involved alongside our allies.
 
F27Friendship
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 11:45 pm

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:00 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
We have no US troops on our soil.

yes we do, not many, but we do

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
I believe that providing freedom to two countries whose leaders were deeply involved in state supported terrorism that led to a direct attack on US soil is a step forward.

Afghanistan is the most difficult problem and has been vastly underestimated, even early after 9-11. We hardly there yet. I won't even start on Iraq.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
The US provides the majority of the commitment to NATO so, yes, I can say Keesje (and F27Friendship) the US is providing the Netherlands with an umbrella of security.

That is correct, during the cold war the US and Nato were our primary security assurance. However bad decision making on the highest levels of government in recent years have greatly reduced the level of security in our country.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
(Not to mention the two times the US rescued Europe which I realize you want to forget. I have a problem with that since two of my father's brothers and one of my wife's mother's brothers were killed in the fighting in Europe.)

The greatest generation has nothing in common with the current. I take offence in people who had nothing to do with it taking credit for that. Have some humiliation for the people that fought and gave their lives for the freedom of others. You can not misuse it as lightly as you are doing right now.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
Unfortunately the help in Iraq has been limited to the UK, Australia, Japan, The Czech Republic and Poland.

We had over 1000 troops stationed in Iraq thank you very much (protecting the unarmed japanese)

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
In Afghanistan, it sure would be nice if everyone would live up to the NATO Charter and provide the requested ground troops where the fighting is.

I believe we have the largest number per capita (2500 troops)and provide the backbone of airsupport. Germany will increase up to 4500 and france also has several thousands. There are indeed some that can do more/

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 157):
Oliver Stone is a figment of his own mind, and his fiction is a bore.

the movie was a masterpiece BTW

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
The EU just spent over a trillion Euros trying to bail out their banks

Ow wait, now why was that necesary in the first place? Some self-criticism wouldn;t hurt ya

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
The US through NATO has guaranteed your security for the past 60 years.

yes it did and it still does, that doesnt mean that no mistakes are made ever and that we can not discuss this with our allies. Being friends means talking both ways.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
I agree, Bosnia was looking pretty ugly until the US stepped in.

correct. EU messed up big time and it took Nato under initiative by Bill Clinton to resolve that.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
You have been looking in the wrong places. EU27 unemployment rate was 6.7%.back in March, before the present difficulties. The US unemployment rate in September was 6.1%. Perhaps you are hanging around the wrong people?

I'm in one of the richest states and these are all people with good jobs. BTW, what do those statistics mean? absolutely nothing.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Yes, they have. There have been no attacks on US soil or against US interests (aside from Iraq and Afghanistan in over seven years. That is a fact and that is directly attributable to taking the war to the enemy.

Which are a direct result of enforcing security regulations, making them stricter, making the intelligence community stronger. We did have bombings in London and Madrid though.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
It is not at all out of line in fact it is something that must be said more often. We did perceive the right threats,

Osama Bin Laden was the main threat and was mainly ignored just before the 9-11 attacks.
Most of the hijackers did not even have the right documentation to enter the US but were still able to.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Frankly the last thing I want to hear is some whiny Euro telling my president (whoever that may be) how to keep me secure.

this is a discussion forum where people share opinions. If you can;t handle someone else's opinion this forum might not be for you. Secondly I'm not telling anyone to do whatever.
BTW, the best analysis and critics come from inside the US, I know a great deal of Americans who do not think like you.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Overthrowing the Baathist regime in Iraq was a huge success.

Read General Wesley Clark's book. Completely destroying the government apparatus is not a good way of installing a new government.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Driving Al Queda in Afghanistan underground and killing of many of them has been a huge success.

How would you measure that succes?

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Perceive your own bloody threats and take care of them yourself if you don;t like how we do things.

You do not speak for all americans or america. Don't act like you do.

Quoting Alien (Reply 158):
Yeah, well start cooperating more and complaining less.

I think my country is doing their bit and honouring the alliance. At the same time we share our concerns and fortunately our good friends and allies take us seriously (and those representing them are not anything like you).
 
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kc135topboom
Posts: 11227
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:00 am



Quoting A342 (Reply 152):
Most of the points that Keesje lists do indeed apply to the current US administration.

Which ones? The US has no intentions on occupying Iraq or Afghanistan. We will sign a "status of forces" agreement with both. That is a lot different than what Hussain did to Kuwait, or Hitler did to Poland, France, The Netherlands, and almost all of the rest of Europe.

Quoting A342 (Reply 152):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
A gun is no different than a car, airplane, or any other machine that can kill you if improperly used. The gun, car, etc. does not kill you, the person shooting or driving does.

Jeez, cars and most other machines aren't designed to kill. Guns exist for exactly that purpose.

A drunk driver in a car is also a machine designed to kill, and often does.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
We also know which country has an economy still strong enough to lead the rest of the world out of the crisis. What we don't know is how long it will take.

EU, China? They have hard cash but I think the time has gone those entities will send money to others to spend the way they used too.

EU? LOL. Europe is in a much worse economic position than any other reagion in the world. China? Take a look at the size of the Chinese economy, as compared to the US, EU, or even Canada. True countries borrow money from the Chinese today, that is because the Chinese don't owe much money to anyone, and can afford these loans.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 151):
Most Americans, and Europeans who own guns, own them for hunting.

400 million hunting weapons is a lot in a country where the majority lives is cities and another percentage is very old or young.

I own 2 guns, some of my friends own as many as 10 different guns. A lot of US city residents are hunters.

Quoting Keesje (Reply 155):
Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 154):
Don't worry Keesje, the US will continue to look out for your security.

We have no US troops on our soil.

Check again. Try looking at the US Embassy, and your military training bases.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 144):
Even that may not happen as the economic crisis is worse in Europe than it is in the US.

Well dear friend, since I'm spending some time on your side of the pond right know I can tell thats not really the case. I actually met a lot of people looking for jobs in Europe.

There are also Europeans in the US looking for jobs here. In the big picture, there are not many Americans, or Europeans, looking for jobs in the US or EU. Perhaps at most the number is a few thousand people, total.

Quoting F27Friendship (Reply 156):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 145):
Militairy / defense / weapons is less a part of our culture I guess.

Or has been more part of it then has been good for us.

Really? Did you know the EU is the world's 3rd largest exporter of military weapons, behind the US and Russia.
 
wilco737
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 12:21 am

RE: 2009 Usaf Tanker Competition Proposals

Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:17 am

This discussion isn't about the Tanker competition anymore, it is gone all political and the thread will be locked.

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Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos