Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
Venus6971
Posts: 1415
Joined: Tue Dec 14, 2004 1:55 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:15 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 49):
The BRAC committee wanted to move the aircraft to either Moody AFB which was on the BRAC list for realignment or to the former Naval Air Station at Cecil Field Florida.

I remember that the Jacksonville Mayor told the Navy they like not having the Navy there anymore.
http://www.firstcoastnews.com/news/l...al/news-article.aspx?storyid=58163
I would help you but it is not in the contract
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:20 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 49):
These communities are extremely short sighted, they allow residential encroachment to these facilities to happen and then freak out when the BRAC comes and moves their bases and the tens of thousands of jobs they support.

That's human nature. I am a little shocked here too. For many years I grew up right near a NAS. In the mid 1980's the base started buying up all the land under the approach ends of the runways, tearing down the now closed business and vacant houses, thinning the trees and the like for this very reason. I thought they did the all over..............
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
LMP737
Posts: 6042
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Tue Dec 16, 2008 5:54 pm



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 51):
That's human nature. I am a little shocked here too. For many years I grew up right near a NAS. In the mid 1980's the base started buying up all the land under the approach ends of the runways, tearing down the now closed business and vacant houses, thinning the trees and the like for this very reason. I thought they did the all over..............

When I was stationed at Miramar an A-4 from Top Gun went down east of the field. However unlike west of the field there's absolutely nothing directly east of it. So the only damage done was some burnt sage brush.

All lot of the land is owned by the government and is not open to development. Otherwise there would be wall to wall houses.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
TGIF
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:01 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:00 pm

Has there been an official report explaining the crash released? I tried Google but without any luck.

Are accident reports involving a military aircraft on US soil released for public access and where can one find them? This is the case in Sweden and it's always interesting to get a good detailed view of what really happened.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Thu Jan 22, 2009 9:10 pm

The mishap report itself probably will not be released for public access, but they may release some of their findings. Especially considering the circumstances in this crash.
Phrogs Phorever
 
EMBQA
Posts: 7858
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:52 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Thu Jan 22, 2009 11:47 pm



Quoting TGIF (Reply 53):

It only happened a few weeks back. Investigations take several months up to a year. Also, i the full report will not be made public..... though a basic report may be issued for public distribution..
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
TGIF
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Apr 12, 2008 1:01 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:08 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 54):



Quoting EMBQA (Reply 55):

Thanks for the info!
To bad there won't be a detailed report released for the public.

I do understand that an investigation like this isn't done on the coffee brake, I thought an interim report could have been released by know stating something like, "Bird strike causing dual engine flame out", or "He ran out of fuel". Perhaps if it would have been something as simple as the reasons above, we would have had an answer by now.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10620
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:21 pm

So new information on the crash, the tower-pilot communication tapes were released today.
It turns out the pilot by passed two oppurtunities to land at a closer airfield, North Island

Quote:
Neubauer turned down two chances to land his F/A-18D Hornet at North Island Naval Air Station, a nearby coastal airfield. ....
....

The FAA recordings show that Neubauer understood his predicament shortly after leaving the flight deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln around 11:30 a.m. The carrier was operating off the coast of Mexico southwest of San Diego.
....

An FAA air traffic controller at Miramar offered to direct Neubauer's jet - with the call sign SHUTR25 - toward Runway 36, the main eastbound runway at North Island. That approach would have kept the aircraft over water until it touched down.

Visibility was good under mostly cloudy skies at the time, weather records show.

"I'm actually going to try to make it to Miramar if possible," Neubauer replied as he flew at an altitude of about 13,000 feet nearly 20 miles south of North Island.

Two minutes later, the controller directed Neubauer on a path that would let him fly by North Island on his way toward Miramar.

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stori.../03/3bn03crash-marine-pilot-probe/

My main question is why he didn't go for North Island, I can't understand why the important thing isn't to get the aircraft on the ground as quickly as possible. The only thing I can think of is that the Marines did not want the Navy involved with their plane, but I truly hope this is not the case and can't fathom why this would be the case.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:41 pm



Quoting Tugger (Reply 57):
My main question is why he didn't go for North Island

Apparently, the Marines thought it was safe to fly into Miramar. From the same article...

Quote:
Miramar's commander, Col. Christopher O'Connor, said that Neubauer correctly followed emergency landing procedures by heading to Miramar. He and other Marine officials said it is safe to fly an F/A-18 on one engine, and they cited the long odds against a double-engine failure.

I'm just surprised, considering the on-going sensitivity of having the MCAS surrounded by heavily populated areas, they didn't make it SOP to divert if feasible under these circumstances. A crash into a residential area at Miramar has always been a matter of when, not if. They should have had contingency plans in place for these types of situations to divert whenever possible.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10620
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:16 am

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 58):
Apparently, the Marines thought it was safe to fly into Miramar. From the same article...

Yes, I understand that, should have made it clear that he was talking with the folks at Miramar, but as the pilot he of course has final say on what to do.

And now the military has come out with some of the results of its investigation:

Quote:
The F/A-18 crash that killed four family members in a San Diego neighborhood on Dec. 8 was caused by poor maintenance on the plane and a series of errors by the pilot and officers trying to guide him to an emergency landing, the results of a Marine investigation released today concluded.

Four officers at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station have been relieved of duty, a probable career-ending sanction. Nine other Marines and sailors have also been punished. The pilot, who was still in training, has been grounded. The assistant commandant for aviation will decide whether he is allowed to resume flying.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la...t-crash4-2009mar04,0,1947853.story

Quote:
The F/A-18 Hornet crashed after "a succession of emergencies" that began with oil-pressure problems in its right engine during a flight off the Southern California coast, said Marine Col. John Rupp. That left the jet relying on its other engine, which previously had been giving mechanics electronic indications of a problem with its fuel-flow system, Rupp said.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/03/03/plane.crash/index.html

Guess this will change how situations like this are handled in the future. I do have a feeling that the superiors were trying to keep the hobbled aircraft away from a separate, Navy, set of eyes that would have uncovered their poor maintenance.

Tugg

[Edited 2009-03-03 18:18:16]
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:27 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 59):
I do have a feeling that the superiors were trying to keep the hobbled aircraft away from a separate, Navy, set of eyes that would have uncovered their poor maintenance.

That is about the most ridiculous thing I have heard. Considering North Island is home to only helicopter squadrons, one C-2 squadron, and detachment of C-9s, the more likely scenario is that they tried to avoid landing there because there would be no support to repair their aircraft.

I am not saying that the logistics of repairing the aircraft should have come ahead of safety, what I am saying is your claim of avoiding a base to keep from "Navy eyes" is fantasy. And quite offensive.

The LA Times article you link specifically says that no criminal wrong doing was found, meaning the plane was legal to fly. It also says that 40 other Navy and Marine Hornets were found to have the same fuel system problem. So chances are if they had landed some where with other Hornet units, they would have found planes with the same damn problem that you are calling poor maintenance.

Sorry, but that garbage touched a nerve.
Phrogs Phorever
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:28 am

Quoting Tugger (Reply 57):
An FAA air traffic controller at Miramar offered to direct Neubauer's jet - with the call sign SHUTR25 - toward Runway 36, the main eastbound runway at North Island. That approach would have kept the aircraft over water until it touched down.

On a much lighter note... I found this amusing. Runway 36 is the main eastbound runway?

[Edited 2009-03-03 19:28:45]
Phrogs Phorever
 
ikramerica
Posts: 15100
Joined: Mon May 23, 2005 9:33 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:28 am



Quoting Tugger (Reply 57):
My main question is why he didn't go for North Island, I can't understand why the important thing isn't to get the aircraft on the ground as quickly as possible.

That was my question the day it happened, and I got mildly flamed for daring to question the actions of a pilot (which is a recurring theme on a.net).

But knowing the area, it was quite obvious to me that ditching in the Ocean or putting down on North Island were the right options, and heading back inland was not. So I wondered if there was a reason they couldn't, and sadly, it turns out there was no reason at all.

To answer my own question from that day:

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 20):
If he was knowingly limping home after engine trouble over the ocean, which the reports say he was, shouldn't he have called an emergency and put down on Coronado?

Yes. Yes he should have. And he was given clearance to do so. And he didn't. Which in my mind makes him possibly guilty of 4 counts of negligent homicide or at least manslaughter. From before take off to the time he ejected, this pilot made bad decisions that he had no business making, and if he had made different decisions anywhere along that timeline, that family would still be alive.

It's very sad.
Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
 
Mike89406
Posts: 1424
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 12:05 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 3:57 am

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 60):
Considering North Island is home to only helicopter squadrons, one C-2 squadron, and detachment of C-9s, the more likely scenario is that they tried to avoid landing there because there would be no support to repair their aircraft.

In the event of emergency you divert to the nearest safe airport that the F-18 can land at. Being in the Navy and an Airframes Mechanic on F-18's and EA-6B's they can send a rescue detachment to wherever the aircraft is located. You don't need F-18 facilities to land a F-18 there just a long enough runway.

Point and case, we had an F-18 break and had to land at Wright Patterson AFB while we were based on Southern Maryland, they asked our shop along with other shops who wanted to volunteer to fly up and fix the jet another time one of our Super Hornets that broke down in St Louis at the Boeing facility during a cross country flight. We had to send a detachment there as well. More recently a F-18 broke down at San Clemente Island during bounces. The squadron flew some maintenance personnel out there to fix it.

Point being they could have sent some squadron mechanics from Miramar to Coronado (which is a short drive) to rescue the jet. Obviously, if the jetmade it safe to Miramar this wouldn't even be a story. The fact there is now proof the pilot was offerred a clearance to North Island twice and pushed for Miramar instead resulting in a causing crash and killing civilians it is a big issue now no matter how you slice and dice it.

BTW there is a major F-18 Depot repair facility in NAS North Island/Coronado not to mention there are Navy maintainers with Hornet experience stationed on the base as well despite working at a different command.

Mike

[Edited 2009-03-03 20:28:21]
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 10620
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 6:22 am



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 60):
I am not saying that the logistics of repairing the aircraft should have come ahead of safety, what I am saying is your claim of avoiding a base to keep from "Navy eyes" is fantasy. And quite offensive.

I understand, it is just a feeling, nothing that can be justified. It could just as easily be that the Marines just wanted their plane at their base and not someone else's but even that lacks much to be justified. Of course they had no idea that the other engine would fail. Like I said just a feeling, I know it is offensive.

Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 60):
So chances are if they had landed some where with other Hornet units, they would have found planes with the same damn problem that you are calling poor maintenance.

Don't lay that at my feet. It was the Marines who called it poor maintenance. They relieved the Maintenance Officer of his (her?) duties.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
rolfen
Posts: 1539
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2006 6:03 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:39 am

Quoting CALPSAFltSkeds (Reply 11):
The pilot stuck with the aircraft until about 15 seconds to impact and did what he could.

If ejecting as much as 15 seconds before the crash is the best he can do, then I am not very impressed.
That doesnt mean that Im not impressed with other aspects of the emergency and the procedure followed... nothing is perfect.

[Edited 2009-03-04 01:03:16]
rolf
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 10:33 am



Quoting Mike89406 (Reply 63):
In the event of emergency you divert to the nearest safe airport that the F-18 can land at. Being in the Navy and an Airframes Mechanic on F-18's and EA-6B's they can send a rescue detachment to wherever the aircraft is located. You don't need F-18 facilities to land a F-18 there just a long enough runway.

Yes, aware of all that. I was not trying to defend their actions, I am saying that was most likely their thought process. They were not trying to hide their aircraft from "Navy" eyes, they were trying to avoid a logistics hassle. As I said in the paragraph right after the one you quoted...it was not the right thing to do, putting a logistics hassle in front of safety.

Quoting Tugger (Reply 64):
Don't lay that at my feet. It was the Marines who called it poor maintenance. They relieved the Maintenance Officer of his (her?) duties.

Actually the Marine rep in the article is quoted as saying "poor judgement on the part of the squadrons maintenance department." The media translated that to mean poor maintenance. Two different things really.
Phrogs Phorever
 
redflyer
Posts: 3905
Joined: Thu Feb 24, 2005 3:30 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 2:41 pm



Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 62):
Which in my mind makes him possibly guilty of 4 counts of negligent homicide or at least manslaughter.

I don't think we want to criminalize decisions made in the cockpit, unless they are grossly negligent, because it will only serve to detract from safety. There are plenty of lawyers around to make sure sufficient "punishment" is meted out without having to resort to putting someone behind bars. Of course, maybe the decisions he made were grossly negligent, but we don't have all the information yet on what happened that day. I have a feeling, though, that his flying career, as well as his Marine Corps career, is over, which in itself is going to be quite a hefty punishment. I won't even get into his conscience, knowing what he did led to the deaths of 4 innocent and precious lives.

Quoting Ikramerica (Reply 62):
From before take off to the time he ejected, this pilot made bad decisions that he had no business making,

He might have been relying on (false) information and assumptions from his commanders and support staff on the ground. After all, it's been pointed out above that this fuel flow problem was common on other aircraft in the squadron, so they may have opted to not give it as much weight in their decision-making process as they should have.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
HaveBlue
Posts: 2169
Joined: Fri Jan 30, 2004 3:01 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 7:33 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 61):
On a much lighter note... I found this amusing. Runway 36 is the main eastbound runway?

Heh that's exactly what popped into my head when I read it too!

On another note the decision not to go to North Island would be more justifiable if the only remaining engine was solid... but it was not. The #2 engine was shut down and the #1 "was possibly failing". Given that he was already down one engine and the second one was questionable it seems to me to be prudent to go to North Island and not risk approaching over populated areas. If the engine is giving him fits at altitude and power what about at reduced power for landing?

Now he was a pilot in training so I'm just guessing that most of the final decision was made by those on the ground who he was conferring with so the blame would lay with them. I am biased and generally try to side with the pilot because of that but whoevers decision was to try and make it to Miramar on a problematic engine when a less populated alternative was available is has to bear the responsibility for the outcome.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Mar 04, 2009 8:18 pm



Quoting HaveBlue (Reply 68):
On another note the decision not to go to North Island would be more justifiable if the only remaining engine was solid... but it was not. The #2 engine was shut down and the #1 "was possibly failing". Given that he was already down one engine and the second one was questionable it seems to me to be prudent to go to North Island and not risk approaching over populated areas.

This is where the article is not very clear, because it does not give details on the specific problems with the left (good) engine. What I gather though, is there was nothing wrong with the engine itself, the problem was with the fuel system supplying that engine. I am guessing the discrepency that went unfixed for so long has to do with some sort of crossfeed system that allows one engine to feed from either tank. They said the plane was legal to fly, so that system must not be required for safe flight. However it could easily be considered poor judgement to allow a plane with that discrepency to do carrier ops. If they had been further to sea he would not have even made the shore, even though he was carrying plenty of fuel in the other wing!

Overall the most glaring mistake they made was to bypass North Island. While I understand their probable thought process (logistics of off site repair), they made the wrong call (hind sight being 20/20).
Phrogs Phorever
 
rwessel
Posts: 2448
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:04 am



Quoting Rolfen (Reply 65):
If ejecting as much as 15 seconds before the crash is the best he can do, then I am not very impressed.

Ejection safety improves greatly with some altitude. The recommendation is to eject above 2000ft, if at all possible.
 
hercppmx
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon May 26, 2008 8:25 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Mon Mar 16, 2009 5:07 am

From the LA Times Article
"Among the worst of the mistakes was the pilot's decision, made with his squadron bosses, to bypass a runway on Coronado"

Even though the Pilot said he wanted to proceed to miramar, his decision was probably his and his commands as Dragon6172 would know each marine squadron has it's own squadron Freq for the radio that is also monitored so the pilot was probably talking with the maintainers on the ground, or someone else in the squadron who helped influenced the decision to press on to miramar. JUST MY OPINION (feel free to flame) .

Also the report says "poor maintenance" this could mean anything something brakes and it's always the maintenance dept. fault for not catching it sooner. It is the Marine Corps and all CRAP ROLLS DOWN HILL.

And the Idea presented above about the marines not wanting to have the navy see poor maintenance is ridiculous, ill informed, and offensive. Yes people on the ground and the pilot underestimated the problem with the aircraft and looking back now should have landed at North Island. I know that the marines would never not ground an aircraft because someones eyes might see it. As well even though there maybe a maintenance facility at north island they would not touch the jet. Even if you qualified on the type you never crack a pannel on another Squadrons plane PERIOD.
C-130; it's a love-hate relationship
 
DingDong
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 5:45 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Wed Apr 22, 2009 8:14 pm

Looks like Lt. Neubauer is going to be flying again soon, according to the Los Angeles Times and the San Diego Union-Tribune:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lano...h-in-san-diego-will-fly-again.html

http://www3.signonsandiego.com/stories/2009/apr/22/bn22pilot10838/

IMO, this is the correct decision on part of the USMC.
DingDong, honey, please answer the doorbell!
 
JakeOrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1090
Joined: Fri Oct 07, 2005 11:13 pm

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Mon Apr 27, 2009 3:49 am



Quote:
The crash caused fear among University City residents and prompted calls for the Marine Corps to end flights over that neighborhood. Some critics asked for Neubauer to be permanently grounded.

Give me a freaking break. The base was there LONG before the homes were built, and people should know the consequences. OYE! NIMBY's piss me off to no end.

Quoting DingDong (Reply 72):
Looks like Lt. Neubauer is going to be flying again soon, according to the Los Angeles Times and the San Diego Union-Tribune:

Glad he will keep his wings, but this incident will never go away for him. He's partly responsible, but at the end of the day, his Superiors and maintenance staff are ultimately accountable for knowing about the faulty fuel system, as well as pressuring him to head to Miramar.

This type of accident won't happen again, as all military aircraft in trouble will most likely head to North Island, but sadly, and tragic chapter in the rule book written in blood.
Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
 
dragon6172
Posts: 1128
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

RE: F-18 Crashed In UTC, San Diego

Mon Apr 27, 2009 11:29 am



Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 73):
his Superiors and maintenance staff are ultimately accountable for knowing about the faulty fuel system, as well as pressuring him to head to Miramar.

I am sure he knew about the faulty fuel system, as long as he read the aircraft discrepency book like he was supposed to prior to the flight. Obviously the discrepency was considered an "up" gripe for them to fly the plane. The poor head work by maintenance and superiors comes from scheduling an aircraft that can not crossfeed fuel to go out to the ship.
Phrogs Phorever

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kiwirob and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos