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redflyer
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Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:30 pm

My apologies in advance if this has already been discussed, but I've been traveling a lot and haven't logged on a lot lately. Please offer up a suggestion for deletion if it's old news. Anyway, from Flight:

Quote:
The publication of alleged "Boeing Proprietary" information in an Airbus document could affect Northrop Grumman's attempt to rebid - with Airbus parent EADS as a partner - against Boeing to replace the US Air Force tanker fleet.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...lications-for-both-airframers.html

Seems like Boeing's advocates might just use this information to TRY and torpedo an NG/EADS award in the future. I hope they don't because information tends to be a two-way street in industry and there's no telling what kind of info Boeing itself may have on EADS/Airbus.

Regards

[Edited 2008-12-09 08:41:00]
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Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:10 pm

Didn't see your thread; I just started a thread on this and I'll ask the mods to delete mine. Here's what I posted:

Airbus’s Boeing 787 dossier could have wider implications for both airframers

Quote:

The publication of alleged "Boeing Proprietary" information in an Airbus document could affect Northrop Grumman's attempt to rebid - with Airbus parent EADS as a partner - against Boeing to replace the US Air Force tanker fleet.

Former Aerospace Industries Association president John Douglass believes that this episode could have a material impact on the US Department of Defense's decision-making process.

"Obviously our government is concerned about these things and wants to see all the contractors perform in an ethical way, so it could be an issue," Douglass says. "On the other hand this could be just some charts somebody got."

Boeing's congressional allies will use this revelation to paint Airbus as "not an acceptable or trustworthy transatlantic partner when it comes to defence technology", says Richard Aboulafia, vice-president of analysis at the Teal Group.

Passions run high in this debate, but this "scoop" could have unintended consequences, as the author acknowledges.

Speculation on the USAF's alternatives:
-There will be a new competition and the Airbus aircraft will win.
-Boeing will win a sole source (my personal pick), due to the sheer political opposition in Congress to outsourcing this to Europe.
-The USAF will be forced to acknowledge the new budget realities and upgrade the KC-135Es.
I'm sure there are others.

What will Airbus do? Use the "everybody does it" defense? Where will that leave Northrup Grumman? Arguing that "yes, everybody does it but us...."? Frankly, IMVHO, Boeing's congressional allies were just handed an early Christmas present from the good folks at Flight Global.
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 5:27 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
-Boeing will win a sole source (my personal pick), due to the sheer political opposition in Congress to outsourcing this to Europe.

I think sole-sourcing this deal has moved high on the list of options with the current financial crisis. Regardless of how many jobs an NG/EADS partnership will create here in the U.S., the stigma of "outsourcing" a $100 billion defense procurement off-shore will not sit well with taxpayers who are already forking over hundreds of billions of dollars to prop up other industries. I can see a looming argument developing for Boeing's congressional advocates: "If we award this contract to a foreign supplier, not only are we spending our tax dollars on a foreign entity during a financial crisis, but who can guarantee this won't harm Boeing to the point that we will have to fork over hundreds of billions more in a few years to prop up Boeing the way we are doing so with the auto manufacturers?"

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
-The USAF will be forced to acknowledge the new budget realities and upgrade the KC-135Es.

IMO, this will be at the top of the list of possibilities. Let's face it: tankers just aren't glamorous so no one will care how old the platform is as long as it can perform the job of hauling and passing gas.
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gsosbee
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:20 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 2):
IMO, this will be at the top of the list of possibilities. Let's face it: tankers just aren't glamorous so no one will care how old the platform is as long as it can perform the job of hauling and passing gas.

Agree. Until they start falling apart in flight, the problem will be ignored, and the funds will go to a fighter program.
 
Ken777
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:28 pm

If you're being political in your thinking then Boeing would probably get the contract.

If you're being pragmatic then the KC-135s will get up-graded and will fly until our financial situation gets better.

Being realistic, there isn't money for the KC-X right now. We're going to need to spend money that will increase jobs throughout the country and, because it will be financed with debt, there had better be impact in every state possible.

The disclosure, if there is actually proprietary information in the wrong hands, will be a problem for Airbus in terms of winning government contracts against Boeing. You can be sure that there will be "patriotic politicians" crying "Airbusgate" all over the place. The task at hand, though, is determining if there is proprietary in the wrong hands.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:43 pm

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
The disclosure, if there is actually proprietary information in the wrong hands, will be a problem for Airbus in terms of winning government contracts against Boeing.

I doubt if it will only involve Boeing! This will be dredged up each and every time that EADS competes for a U.S. defense contract. The ramifications of the Flight Global article for EADS defense contracts with the U.S. may not be known for some time, but I think there will be consequences, adverse ones at that.

These disclosures may have poisoned the well for EADS and EADS North America WRT U.S. defense contracts for some time to come. Time will tell.

[Edited 2008-12-09 14:50:29]
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:56 pm

If Airbus is excluded for using Boeing PowerPoint slides in an internal presentation, would Boeing be allowed to bid?

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/16/business/fi-boeing16

Intriguing no?  scratchchin 
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Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:16 pm

Ah the obligatory mention of the Darleen Druyun scandal. Are you maintaining that EADS conduct "balances the books"? Or that EADS should pay a $615 million fine?

If the airbus tanker had an uphill battle before, these revelations by Flight Global will provide new ammunition for the "home grown" solution. Politically speaking, it's dynamite and may have consequences well beyond the tanker procurement as I mentioned previously.
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bennett123
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:32 pm

I assume that you feel that it is not relevant.

Clearly Darleen Druyun was not sufficient to rule out Boeing.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 09, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
I assume that you feel that it is not relevant.

Oh, it's a huge issue--on a.net.

As Jon Ostrower noted in his article today, there could be "wider implications"--especially for future EADS' efforts to garner more U.S. defense business. The new congress will be even more hostile than the last to outsourcing.

The Darleen Druyun affair may be mentioned by the Alabama congressional delegation, but they didn't have the votes to swing the tanker deal to airbus the last time. All they could do now would be to make noise.

But it will continue to be a huge debating point on a.net; can't deny that.
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cpd
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:05 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
But it will continue to be a huge debating point on a.net; can't deny that.

It's a storm in a tea-cup.  Smile

Each company does robust analysis on their rivals. It's part of what any good company does in order to make sure its products are better.

The contract must go to the better plane - for the benefit of the USA's armed forces.
 
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:31 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Ah the obligatory mention of the Darleen Druyun scandal. Are you maintaining that EADS conduct "balances the books"? Or that EADS should pay a $615 million fine?

Nah, not only. From the article :

The scandals involved allegations that Boeing improperly acquired thousands of pages of proprietary documents from rival Lockheed Martin Corp. to help it win rocket contracts

Ethics campaigns have been on the agenda for yrs to convince the Dod soemthing has changed..

http://www.google.com/search?q=boein...om.microsoft:en-US&ie=utf8&oe=utf8

The USAF made clearl they see the KC30 as being a superior platform on nearly all relevant parameters and price. The B team can not fight that & seems to be trying to find alternative routes.
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Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:02 am

We need a separate Darleen Druyun thread, Keesje. Why not start one? Or better yet...a cable channel where this can be discussed 24 hours a day?

Back to the topic, Flight has more commentary on this. Apparently a couple of days for reflection have yielded some interesting conclusions. Boeing is the "winner"?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...fair-in-transatlantic-rivalry.html

Quote:
But the Airbus report, "787 Lessons Learnt", is altogether different. The document is a spectacular glimpse into the practices and methods of a corporate intelligence unit, revealing lessons to the general public far beyond the trials of the 787's troublesome development. It hints at how the game is played - at least by Airbus.

Despite damaging assertions about the 787, Boeing is clearly the winner in this round. By reading it, Boeing is afforded the rare privilege of learning exactly what its rival thinks it knows about the example of the 787. Perhaps more important, Boeing is allowed to see what Airbus doesn't know about the 787. In Seattle, any gaps in Airbus's knowledge could be even more instructive.

The document appears to betray some Airbus sources and methods, which at least raises questions about the airframer's code of ethics for intelligence gathering.

No-one begrudges Airbus's right to collect information about its competitor. But it does not explain how it obtained a series of internal Boeing charts marked "proprietary" - an omission that could haunt it in the US Air Force tanker competition.

Well done to Flight Global for these startling revelations. No doubt Congressman Norm Dicks and Senator Patty Murray will send them a case of champagne!  

[Edited 2008-12-10 03:13:47]
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 11:40 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
We need a separate Darleen Druyun thread, Keesje.

No if only Druyun could be blamed for everything, wouldn't that be nice?  Wink

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
By reading it, Boeing is afforded the rare privilege of learning exactly what its rival thinks it knows about the example of the 787. Perhaps more important, Boeing is allowed to see what Airbus doesn't know about the 787.

No, who says this is all info Airbus has?

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
Well done to Flight Global for these startling revelations. No doubt Congressman Norm Dicks and Senator Patty Murray will send them a case of champagne!

 champagne   bigthumbsup 

 scratchchin 

I bed Boeing doesn't have time to work this decoy..

http://news.google.com/news?nolr=1&hl=en&q=boeing+787+delay
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slz396
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:01 pm

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
Flight has more commentary on this. Apparently a couple of days for reflection have yielded some interesting conclusions. Boeing is the "winner"?

Reflection might not be the right word: Jon has been very bussy hyping his find for the last week...

Let's recap the raw elements of his story:
Jon has received a Airbus PPT presentation containing a robust summary of the current depressing state the 787 program is in, as well as a factual and correct technical explanation of the reasons for this. Nothing more, nothing less...

Interesting reading for a day or so for sure, but for the last week, Jon has been constantly hyping his find as if he has laid hands on a top secret document full of classified information on the 787 from Airbus and is constantly hinting and suggesting unethical behaviour by Airbus!

Right from the start it seemed to me Jon had embarked on some kind of a 'political mission' here, i.e to show how bad Airbus really is and with his latest article you've linked to, he clearly shows he's not the unbiassed messenger like first pretended, but rather the agitator who wants to judge Airbus' methods.  Wow!

Let me say that in his judgement, he's assuming quite a lot of things:

- As Keesje has said, who says the PPT presentation is all Airbus knows?
Logic dictates a PPT file is only a summary, used to sum up the key points.
Airbus insight in the 787 likely goes much deeper than what is mentioned in this PPT, which quite frankly looks like it is written for people who SELL and BUY planes, rather than people who DESIGN and BUILT them. To me this looks like a document which the AIrbus' sales teams can use to aswer comparative questions from A350 customers on the 787 program with. As such, it is likely the PPT deliberately does not focus on a multitude of aspects, because they are deemed too sensitive inside knowedge for it to be shared with customers...
  

-) Secondly, If there's one bidder to the tanker contract which must be seen as untrustworthy to work with, surely it is Boeing? Airbus definitely is not the KGB, yet they apparently have no problems whatsoever peeping into the Boeing kitchen via a live stream, so it seems!
If I were the USAF, I'd be reluctant to work with a company which has such an obvious quality assurance problem as Boeing! Not only have they pretty much lost control of the configuration on the entire 787 program for the second time (!), yet they also find internal information of theirs in the hands of their key competitor. What does that say about the security, quality and audit standards at Boeing, you think? LOW LOW LOW
Yet this very company should be entrusted with the all important job of building the future fleet of tankers for the USAF on time, on spec and without the 'enemies' knowing all about the program's technical problems and weaknesses well before the Pentagon does? ROTFL
  

Besides, If you allow me, Jon, I fail to understand why you have been focussing for over a week on the alleged lack of business ethics from Airbus, whereas you has left fully uncovered a potentially much more interesting fact we have learnt thanks to the Airbus PPT: the methods used by Boeing to bold together their 787 apparently violate a BAe patent, now held by Airbus! Why not elaborate a bit on that?
- Is the claim true?
- Does Boeing know?
- Why is Boeing violating intelectual property of others?
- What will Airbus do about it, since they clearly know about it?
- Can they halt the production line of the 787 should they want to?
- Etc.. etc...
IF true, this could be potentially game-stopping for Boeing... yet you don't deem this interesting enough to dig deeper into????
  

[Edited 2008-12-10 07:23:07]
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:12 pm



Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
Right from the start it seemed to me Jon had embarked on some kind of a 'political mission' here, i.e to show how bad Airbus really is and with his latest article you've linked to, he clearly shows he's not the unbiassed messenger like first pretended, but rather the agitator who wants to judge Airbus' methods.

Which one? The last Flight Global article I linked didn't have a by line. Is that the one to which you're referring?

To be fair, doesn't Flight Global have an editorial board that has to approve the publication of these types of articles? To ascribe these motives to one person seems a bit harsh--especially when looking back at the uncontained glee with which 787 bashers initially greeted these revelations. It doesn't take a PhD to figure out that this is political dynamite and when Mr. Ostrower pointed this out, he was merely stating the obvious.
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ikramerica
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 3:18 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
Clearly Darleen Druyun was not sufficient to rule out Boeing.

It helped scuttle the original lease deal that would have been beneficial to the country and would have seen the tankers in service by now.

It also gave Airbus more time to revise it's concept and disguise it's bid as an "American" tanker with the NG partnership.

It had a huge impact.
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 4:50 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 1):
-The USAF will be forced to acknowledge the new budget realities and upgrade the KC-135Es.
I'm sure there are others.

The KC-135E's are not coming back, they are parked.

The tanker program will go forward with either Boeing winning or a split order, EADS will not win a sole order in light of these new allegations.
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slz396
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 7:49 pm



Quoting STT757 (Reply 17):
in light of these new allegations.

Of having a good idea where their competition fucked up?

Is it a crime to gather intellegence?

If I were the USAF I'd be more worried working with a company like Boeing whose subcontractors apparently aren't very tight-lipped towards 3rd parties about issues they've encountered when working on Boeing planes... What guarantees are there the issues with military programs of Boeing are not leaked just as easily as those in the commercial fields?
Boeing has demonstrated to have serious security leaks on several fronts...

Here the leaks were in the commercial field and thus pretty harmless, but what guarantee is there they are not present at the military segments at well? If they are, NG would probably have to work very hard to beat Boeing at that!
 
bennett123
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 8:34 pm

Ikramerica

Would the original lease deal have been beneficial to the USA or just for Boeing.

My understanding is that it was very much the latter.
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 9:42 pm

John Murtha, an influential congressman, opined that it will take at least two years to get another compeition.

Quote:
"It will take at least another two years, at minimum, before we begin to start procurement of a replacement tanker," Rep. John Murtha, who heads the Appropriations subcommittee on defense, said in remarks prepared for a discussion on military priorities at the Center for American Progress think tank.

Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat, said the Defense Department had "wasted" the past seven years in its botched efforts to procure a replacement for the KC-135 fleet that averages nearly 50 years old.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssI...tilitiesNews/idUSN1042238020081210

Note the phase "another two years, at minimum". Bad news for the USAF. Great news for tanker thread enthusiasts.

Keesje, there's time to set up that 24 hour Darleen Druyun scandal cable channel after all. Think of the endless video clips you could post.  Wink
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:02 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 9):
The Darleen Druyun affair may be



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
We need a separate Darleen Druyun thread,



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 20):
Keesje, there's time to set up that 24 hour Darleen Druyun scandal

 laughing  I wasn't pointing at the Druyun-Boeing tanker bribery Scandal. In line with the threadopener topic on using proprietary data I quoted:

Quoting Keesje (Reply 11):
The scandals involved allegations that Boeing improperly acquired thousands of pages of proprietary documents from rival Lockheed Martin Corp. to help it win rocket contracts

What is it with you and Druyun, why do you keep bringing it up?
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Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:11 pm

Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
I wasn't pointing at the Druyun-Boeing tanker bribery Scandal.

See the link you posted in your response in #6 above. Or ... is that an alternate reality version of yourself who authored that post?  

[Edited 2008-12-10 14:36:08]
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Ken777
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Wed Dec 10, 2008 10:15 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
Would the original lease deal have been beneficial to the USA or just for Boeing.

If the negotiations had been at arms length and not holding hands it probably would have been in the interests of both. Boeing would have been able to maintain production - jobs for their workers as well as the workers of their suppliers. Jobs that paid income taxes instead of taxpayers paying unemployment, food stamps, Medicaid, etc.

The AF would have received the tankers at a low cash outlay per month.

It would have been more expensive than an outright purchase, but that's a no brainer. Go check the difference in buying a car for cash and buying one on a lease purchase.

Ironically, a lease purchase approach might be the only way that the AF can get tankers these days. There will be a huge demand for funding in todays economy and finding money for a tanker program is going to be very difficult on an outright purchase. An approach that requires less funding over the next 5 to 10 years (can we say "lease purchase") might get approved if there are a lot of jobs involved.
 
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 12:07 am



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 22):
Quoting Keesje (Reply 21):
I wasn't pointing at the Druyun-Boeing tanker bribery Scandal.

See the link you posted in your response in #6 above. Or ... is that an alternate reality version of yourself who authored that post?

That link is about the proprietary theft, the quote I used in reply 11 is from that link too. .  Wink
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 9:24 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 6):
If Airbus is excluded for using Boeing PowerPoint slides in an internal presentation, would Boeing be allowed to bid?

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may/16/business/fi-boeing16

Intriguing no?

Somehow, it appears Airbus has more than just a Boeing PPT on the B-787 program.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 7):
Ah the obligatory mention of the Darleen Druyun scandal. Are you maintaining that EADS conduct "balances the books"? Or that EADS should pay a $615 million fine?



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 8):
I assume that you feel that it is not relevant.

Clearly Darleen Druyun was not sufficient to rule out Boeing.



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
We need a separate Darleen Druyun thread, Keesje.

Shouldn't we also say that when Druyun was a DOD/USAF employee when she did all those things with the KC-767A contract award to Boeing, back in 2002? She didn't become a Boeing employee until 2003, and that is when she got caught for what she did as a DOD employee.

BTW, you do know that Druyun has and is still collecting federal pension from her last DOD position.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darleen_Druyun.

[2] According to The Federal Times, Darleen Druyun will still be receiving a federal pension.[3]

http://www.govexec.com/pdfs/druyunpostpleaadmission.pdf

http://www.govexec.com/dailyfed/1004/100104g1.htm
 
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 1:03 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
Despite damaging assertions about the 787, Boeing is clearly the winner in this round. By reading it, Boeing is afforded the rare privilege of learning exactly what its rival thinks it knows about the example of the 787. Perhaps more important, Boeing is allowed to see what Airbus doesn't know about the 787. In Seattle, any gaps in Airbus's knowledge could be even more instructive.

That seems to fall into the "he thinks that I think that he thinks ...... " category. Anyone assuming anything other than the most basic verifiable information within that most interesting report could be in for a big surprise.

Seems like "The man who never was" to me. Is Canaris still working at Airbus? He would be feeling like some payback by now?
 
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Revelation
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:23 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
Quote:
But the Airbus report, "787 Lessons Learnt", is altogether different. The document is a spectacular glimpse into the practices and methods of a corporate intelligence unit, revealing lessons to the general public far beyond the trials of the 787's troublesome development. It hints at how the game is played - at least by Airbus.

Despite damaging assertions about the 787, Boeing is clearly the winner in this round. By reading it, Boeing is afforded the rare privilege of learning exactly what its rival thinks it knows about the example of the 787. Perhaps more important, Boeing is allowed to see what Airbus doesn't know about the 787. In Seattle, any gaps in Airbus's knowledge could be even more instructive.

The document appears to betray some Airbus sources and methods, which at least raises questions about the airframer's code of ethics for intelligence gathering.

No-one begrudges Airbus's right to collect information about its competitor. But it does not explain how it obtained a series of internal Boeing charts marked "proprietary" - an omission that could haunt it in the US Air Force tanker competition.

That's a really bizarre spin on things. It's like saying my best friend slept with my wife, but at least now I know what lovemaking techniques he uses!
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rheinwaldner
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:41 pm

Jon questions Airbus ethics because of the document he published? Look what happened: Confidental Airbus data was leaked to public (but not by Airbus). By this leak confidental Boeing data was leaked too. That means ultimatively Jon published confidental Boeing data.

Please be not surprised that Airbus and Boeing do know each other so good as outlined in the document. Probably they know even much more details.
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redflyer
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:02 pm

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
Right from the start it seemed to me Jon had embarked on some kind of a 'political mission' here, i.e to show how bad Airbus really is

Just curious, but if you were a journalist and came upon this document, what would you do, NOT report it? Maybe Jon is playing up this event, but he's doing what any journalist would do.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
he clearly shows he's not the unbiassed messenger like first pretended, but rather the agitator

Unfortunately, that comment is true, but it reflects all journalists, not just Jon. In today's journalism world, "investigative" journalism reigns supreme, which is to say they all try to find a way to agitate.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
If I were the USAF, I'd be reluctant to work with a company which has such an obvious quality assurance problem as Boeing! Not only have they pretty much lost control of the configuration on the entire 787 program for the second time (!), yet they also find internal information of theirs in the hands of their key competitor. What does that say about the security, quality and audit standards at Boeing, you think?

  

If I were the USAF, I'd be wondering what trade and military secrets from military procurement programs deep inside Boeing have found their way across the Atlantic...and continued on across the Asian landmass and into China.

[Edited 2008-12-11 08:03:38]
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
baroque
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:08 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
If I were the USAF, I'd be wondering what trade and military secrets from military procurement programs deep inside Boeing have found their way across the Atlantic...and continued on across the Asian landmass and into China.

And if I were the USAF and worrying along those general lines, I would be more concerned with direct tracks from the US to China. They have functioned OK (for the Chinese) in the past, so what is different now? If Airbus can find these things out for themselves, it is a bit odd to suppose that the Chinese cannot do likewise.
 
redflyer
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 5:13 am



Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
And if I were the USAF and worrying along those general lines, I would be more concerned with direct tracks from the US to China. They have functioned OK (for the Chinese) in the past, so what is different now? If Airbus can find these things out for themselves, it is a bit odd to suppose that the Chinese cannot do likewise.

I think my comment wasn't succinct enough. I wasn't implying that the Europeans would get those secrets and pass them on to the Chinese. What I meant was that the information would cross the Atlantic and go all the way to China directly.  Wink
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:34 am



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
If I were the USAF, I'd be wondering what trade and military secrets from military procurement programs deep inside Boeing have found their way across the Atlantic...

Enormous amounts of trade and military secrets , complete sub assemblies & joint design processes, really frightening..



 Wink
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 8:50 am



Quoting Revelation (Reply 27):
It's like saying my best friend slept with my wife, but at least now I know what lovemaking techniques he uses!

Are you sure she will tell you the truth?

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
If I were the USAF, I'd be wondering what trade and military secrets from military procurement programs deep inside Boeing have found their way across the Atlantic...and continued on across the Asian landmass and into China.

Right now, I'd be more concerned about any info Airbus/EADS/NG may have "lost" that was classified info on the KC-45A.

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 31):
I wasn't implying that the Europeans would get those secrets and pass them on to the Chinese.

Why not? Didn't our Israeli friends share US secrets with China a few years ago?

Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
If Airbus can find these things out for themselves, it is a bit odd to suppose that the Chinese cannot do likewise.

The real question is how did Airbus come by the information about the B-787 and what did they have to do to get it?
 
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keesje
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:32 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
The real question is how did Airbus come by the information about the B-787 and what did they have to do to get it?

Just talk to the commen contractors. As you know Airbus and Boeing share a string of contractors such as Goodrich, Spirit, Rolls Royce, Honeywell, MHI, Rockwell, GE, Jamco, Smits, etc etc. Those are not only subcontractors, but risk sharing, co developping partners these days. Hell even EADS / Airbus themsleves are 787 subcontractors (bulkheads/doors) and a good percentage of the A380 / A350 is build in the US of A. A good part of the 787 is developped / build all around the world including Europe.

Hopefully Xenophobia will diminish after the Bush "You are either with us or against us" years.

"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
baroque
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:22 am



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Quoting Baroque (Reply 30):
If Airbus can find these things out for themselves, it is a bit odd to suppose that the Chinese cannot do likewise.

The real question is how did Airbus come by the information about the B-787 and what did they have to do to get it?

In addition to Keesje's no doubt relevant list, read the newspapers and look at a.net would be two more. The newspapers have been a vast source of inf for spies over the ages. And don't forget the US has a free press, whatever that means. Whenever I have been in the US, they charged for the newspapers!!

OMG, I can see "SOURCE Boeing" on the diagram in reply 34, expect the FBI any minute if you look at this thread.

FWIW, there are, presumably, Chinese walls within Airbus in relation to the bits that B have subcontracted - see Airbus even buy their walls from the Chinese, so they will be full of mikes.  rotfl 
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 11:06 am

Actually, the damage in all of this will likely be political. Quoting again:

Quote:
No-one begrudges Airbus's right to collect information about its competitor. But it does not explain how it obtained a series of internal Boeing charts marked "proprietary" - an omission that could haunt it in the US Air Force tanker competition.

Fifty million a.net tanker threads have proved one thing, the U.S. Congress will ignore all the 'sage" advice here and do what is politically expedient for them. This disclosure provides more ammunition for those supporting a Boeing product. Keep in mind that John Young and the rest of the KC-30 tanker supporters will be looking for new jobs next month. The Bush Administration represented the best chance for the airbus to fly in USAF colors.

IMO, that is the significance of the disclosure--the potential for impact on any future tanker procurement and not anything related to China....
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
slz396
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 1:13 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
Your comment is true, but it reflects all journalists, not just Jon. In today's journalism world, "investigative" journalism reigns supreme, which is to say they all try to find a way to agitate.

Mind you, one can just report the news facts (i.e. investigative journalism), or one can give a clear opinion on them (i.e. opiniating journalism)... I've always thought of FI as a reliable news source which was reporting on the facts, not a politically motivated source which was trying to give their view on these news facts...

Seems however that FI has an agenda of its own and uses whatever happens to illustrate their own right and others wrong... After all, these articles appeared in the aviation news sections of FI, they aren't editorials. As such, a magazine which claims to bring news should make sure to avoid adding opinion!

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 29):
if you were a journalist and came upon this document, what would you do, NOT report it

Reporting on it is no problem, but I'd refrain from making unfounded suggestions or chosing side. Besides, if Jon really wants to do some good investigating journalism, why not dig deeper into several of the interesting and insightful issues the powerpoint presentation learnt us?

Rather than start asking HOW Airbus knows all this and make repeated suggestions of wrong-doing by them in an all too obvious effort to just AGITATE, why not concentrate on WHAT Airbus knows and use these facts to learn the complete story of the 787, not just the story Boeing wants us to believe?

Airbus obviously is convinced that

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 14):
the methods used by Boeing to bold together their 787 barrel sections violate a BAe patent, now held by Airbus! Why not elaborate a bit on that for instance?
- Is the claim true?
- Does Boeing know?
- Why is Boeing violating intelectual property of others?
- What will Airbus do about it, since they clearly know about it?
- Can they halt the production line of the 787 should they want to?
- Etc.. etc...
IF true, this could be potentially game-stopping issue for Boeing's 787... yet Jon doesn't deem this interesting enough to dig deeper into????

Strange... very strange... or am I the only one who's more interested in that side of the story???
 
rheinwaldner
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:47 pm



Quoting Keesje (Reply 34):

I want to underline that fact. Let's say Airbus goes to Spirit to negotiate about A350 parts. To what level do you think Spirit would expose what they can do? Any thinkable level. They would speak about possible production rate, details of implementation. Its easy to derive information about the 787 without mentioning one sentence about the 787. E.g Airbus: "Please make an offer for parts that look like that...". Spirit: "Solution A costs X, and allows 20 parts per month, Solution B is not feasible, Solution C costs Y, and allows 10 per month...". The answer contains: what they can, what they can't, how fast is it produced.

Here is a little mapping how 787 data can be derived from Spirit's answers in such negotiations:
- How is the production rate for part X? -> Derive the possible 787 production rate
- In what time would you build up the production facility -> Derive the cost and lead time of a second 787 production line
- How much cost 10 parts per month and how much 20? -> Derive the ability to scale up the 787 production rate
- Can you build parts as specified here? Can you build parts as specified here? -> Derive how they are building 787 parts.

Of course Boeing can ask A350 suppliers too and probably does...
Many things are difficult, all things are possible!
 
astuteman
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:22 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
We need a separate Darleen Druyun thread, Keesje

Just so we cn show that it's alright if Boeing get up to this sort of thing, but not if EADS do?  scratchchin 

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 12):
It hints at how the game is played - at least by Airbus

Again - reality check needed if anyone thinks that industrial intelligence isn't a standard practice across the globe.
Come on guys. Get a grip
(I recognise you were quoting, there, Lumberton, btw..  thumbsup  )

Quoting Keesje (Reply 32):
Enormous amounts of trade and military secrets , complete sub assemblies & joint design processes, really frightening..

And not just in aircraft either...  Smile

Rgds
 
AWACSooner
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 6:29 pm

Here's a thought:
How about the USAF upgrades the 135's and 10's...and puts some new engines on my jet so we don't freaking burn through $500K of gas per sortie!
 
redflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:18 pm



Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 31):
I wasn't implying that the Europeans would get those secrets and pass them on to the Chinese.

Why not? Didn't our Israeli friends share US secrets with China a few years ago?

Well, I like to think of Allies, in particular those with whom we share common interests and cultures, as trustworthy unless proven wrong. While the Israelis did share secrets with the Chinese, in the end I think it harmed them more than their moving mouths may have harmed us. It was a huge embarrassment for them and made them look bad in light of all the aid they receive from us. I think it also strained relations with regards to that aid. If the same were to happen with the Europeans, it would harm them more than it would us in the same manner. That's just my opinion.

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 37):
Strange... very strange... or am I the only one who's more interested in that side of the story???

No, you're not the only one. When the original issue was discussed on the civil forum, I thought way too much time was expended on the legalities of Airbus' possession of proprietary information and way too little time was spent on what that document revealed about the 787 fiasco. Perhaps this thread is a more appropriate discussion point since its genesis was the fact that some are now questioning EADS/Airbus' reliability as a partner given the legal ramifications of what they posses and how they came upon it.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
slz396
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:33 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
No, you're not the only one. When the original issue was discussed on the civil forum, I thought way too much time was expended on the legalities of Airbus' possession of proprietary information and way too little time was spent on what that document revealed about the 787 fiasco.

My feeling exactly.

It seems Boeing discovered during final assembly that their method of bolting together the barrel sections was unsatisfactory on several fronts and had no other option but to look for a quick fix solution.

It seems that the solution Boeing came up with violates an Airbus pattent.

Some interesting questions emerge:

The first one I'd like to ask:

-) did Boeing accidentally came up with a solution of which it didn't know it was already used and pattented by Airbus? What does that say about the way this program is run, if such things apparently aren't checked off prior to getting the final go-ahead?

-) did Boeing deliberately look at what Airbus does (to save time) and had no other option but to bluntly steel from them, hoping it would not be discovered? What does that say about the ethics of Boeing? Or were they in such dispair that they just went ahead with it anyway and basically ignored any possible consequences because the alternative would be to halt the 787 program entirely and indefinitely while they'd look for another solution to their problem?

What do you think is more likely? Either way, it doesn't look very nice on Boeing's account to be using an Airbus pattent WITHOUT authorization
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Sat Dec 13, 2008 12:22 pm

Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 41):
Perhaps this thread is a more appropriate discussion point since its genesis was the fact that some are now questioning EADS/Airbus' reliability as a partner given the legal ramifications of what they posses and how they came upon it.

I would maintain that civ-av is the more appropriate place to discuss that (legitimate) topic if it hasn't been discussed to death already; unless this is a thread about a putative 787 tanker?

Quoting Slz396 (Reply 37):
Reporting on it is no problem, but I'd refrain from making unfounded suggestions or chosing side. Besides, if Jon really wants to do some good investigating journalism, why not dig deeper into several of the interesting and insightful issues the powerpoint presentation learnt us?

It seems that now that the glee and giddiness has subsided, "someone" actually finished "connecting the dots" and realized, "hey, this thing could upset a few people in the U.S. congress. Doesn't that have the potential to adversely impact EADS on the next tanker go-around"? Also, since this story migrated from the blog pages of Flight Global to the "news" section, then it appears that the Flight editors vetted it. The potential impact for the tanker procurement wasn't acknowledged until the story had been exposed on the blog. Nonetheless, there is the potential to seriously pi$$ off more than a few folks in Congress. This is one document that EADS was loathe to have leaked IMO. I wonder how Northrop-Grumman is going to spin this?

Quoting Astuteman (Reply 39):
Again - reality check needed if anyone thinks that industrial intelligence isn't a standard practice across the globe.

Agreed that "everybody does it". However, when exposed, it's hardly comforting for the culprits to invoke the "everybody-does-it-defense". There are bound to be 2nd and 3rd order consequences. . . .  

[Edited 2008-12-13 04:52:18]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
Norlander
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Sun Dec 14, 2008 7:11 am

Maybe Boeing forfeits the tanker contract in a deal for the Airbus/BAe patent they're infringing Smile

If the patent is as critical as it seems, then Airbus is in a position where they can nearly decide the life of BCA (if 787 goes nowhere BCA goes belly up).

Maybe adding on some major subcontracting work located at a Mobile Alabama Boeing production line. Since Alabama is a Right to Work state it will help to break the power that the unions have over Boeing, and this just might the the subterfuge that is needed for them (unions) to accept it all. End result being that both Boeing and Airbus/NG are happy.

The above scenario might be a bit far fetched, but there is a lot more at play here then "just a huge military contract". Boeing has 2 additional problems, the 787 (now with patent infringement) and higher labor costs (with additional labor distruptions) and some give-and-take with Airbus might solve either or both of those issues if played correctly.
Longtime Lurker
 
Lumberton
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:28 am

Deleted, filler, filler, filler.

[Edited 2008-12-15 16:30:11]
"When all is said and done, more will be said than done".
 
arluna
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 16, 2008 4:53 am

Maybe I missed something but could someone please source the patent infringement story? I have read the posts in this thread and haven't seen the source posted. Could it have been in another thread? If it's in this thread would someone give the number of the post?

Thanks,

J
 
pictues
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 16, 2008 10:09 am

But what many forget is that when Canada bought the C17 boeing agreed and did put every cent in the contract back into the Canadian economy through defense contracts and stuff, so while Canada paid Boeing for the aircraft Boeing put all the money back into Canada, so if Airbus did win i am sure that the same thing would be forced on them as well, cause IMHO if Canada can do it then i am SURE the United States of America can do it. Oh aren't they building them in the USA and putting the fueling stuff on also in the States????? So wouldn't an Airbus win create jobs in the USA??? i say it would, so it should come down to the better plane. But then again it is politics after all......

PS Airbus has already stated if they win the contract they would also build the A330-200F in the states for commercial use
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:36 am



Quoting Keesje (Reply 34):
Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 33):
The real question is how did Airbus come by the information about the B-787 and what did they have to do to get it?

Just talk to the commen contractors. As you know Airbus and Boeing share a string of contractors such as Goodrich, Spirit, Rolls Royce, Honeywell, MHI, Rockwell, GE, Jamco, Smits, etc etc. Those are not only subcontractors, but risk sharing, co developping partners these days. Hell even EADS / Airbus themsleves are 787 subcontractors (bulkheads/doors) and a good percentage of the A380 / A350 is build in the US of A. A good part of the 787 is developped / build all around the world including Europe.



Quoting Baroque (Reply 35):
In addition to Keesje's no doubt relevant list, read the newspapers and look at a.net would be two more. The newspapers have been a vast source of inf for spies over the ages. And don't forget the US has a free press, whatever that means. Whenever I have been in the US, they charged for the newspapers!!

While i agree that Boeing and Airbus share common sub-contractors, those contracts with them probably contain provisions about sharing company owned information that they should not sahre with a competitor.

BTW, Keesje, those doors and bulkheads for the B-787 built in France are not built by any part of EADS. Those parts are built by Latecoere.

http://www.newairplane.com/787/whosbuilding/

Nice try, but as usual, you got the facts wrong, again.

Quoting AWACSooner (Reply 40):
Here's a thought:
How about the USAF upgrades the 135's and 10's...and puts some new engines on my jet so we don't freaking burn through $500K of gas per sortie!

That will, most likely be what happens.
 
baroque
Posts: 12302
Joined: Thu Apr 27, 2006 2:15 pm

RE: Usaf Tanker: Airbus Possession Of Boeing Data

Tue Dec 16, 2008 12:30 pm



Quoting Arluna (Reply 46):
Maybe I missed something but could someone please source the patent infringement story? I have read the posts in this thread and haven't seen the source posted. Could it have been in another thread? If it's in this thread would someone give the number of the post?

Thanks,

J

Not directly in this thread. It comes from a file named "Airbus_787_Lessons_Learned.pdf" that is supposed to come from Airbus - page 7. The name quoted is what the file saved as. Does not look to be as easily available now. If you are anxious for a copy, IM me with your Email address. The page states "Solution infringes a BAE patent owned by Airbus". But the explanation is not all that clear. TDSCanuck can probably do a great deal better at explaining what infringes which - or not as the case may be!!!

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