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Galaxy5007
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Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 12, 2008 2:54 pm

Article here: http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...008/12092008ae_c5m_robins-afb.html

Nobody mentioned it, so I will. Not the type of welcoming you'd expect for the arrival of the aircraft, but in all reality, its not the first plane to go to an operational unit. They delivered 69-0024 to WR-ALC for PDM prior to delivery to Dover. 86-0013 and 86-0025 are the two that will arrive at Dover in February. Rumors are that 6013 will get re-painted first, but I haven't been able to confirm such. The USAF still has yet to induct another C-5 into the RERP project.
 
seefivein
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:18 pm

On Board - Boeing C-17C As C-5 Galaxy Replacement?


Seefivein From United States, joined Apr 2006, 88 posts, RR: 0
Reply 133, posted Tue Dec 9 2008 21:36:03 your local time (2 days 12 hours 39 minutes ago) and read 247 times:


Lockheed Martin Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/p...008/12092008ae_c5m_robins-afb.html
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:15 pm

Yeah, I'm an idiot...Slipped my mind that I responded to it on this forum in another thread. My bad.
 
seefivein
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 12, 2008 4:27 pm

you weren't by any chance part of some that have been caught up in the snow the last day or two

some without power, some freakin out with the white powder on the ground (lol)

[Edited 2008-12-12 08:33:02]
 
Flighty
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To U

Fri Dec 12, 2008 9:40 pm

How many are due to be operational during 2009-2010? I mean no-excuses, final product operational? It will be interesting to see how an actual fleet of C-5M really handles its duties, after all the drama.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 12, 2008 10:38 pm

Three. Maybe 4. They haven't even inducted another plane yet, and there is no sign of them doing so. The intial plan was to do 1, get it completely done, then induct 1, wait a month or two, put another in, wait a month, and so on. They wanted to do a low rate inital production originally, but that plan also had the A models being done. Even if they induct one in January, it won't be flying until December 09, and after working the bugs out, it'll be April-June before its up and running. I don't know WTF the USAF is doing with the program, but they sure have their heads up their butts to not have inducted another aircraft yet.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Sun Dec 14, 2008 11:01 pm

I suspect the delay may be due in part because they may still cancel the RERP program and buy more C-17's or some other platform such as the 748 instead. They will leave that decision to the new President.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Mon Dec 15, 2008 3:50 pm



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 6):
748 instead.

Ain't going to happen.

Quoting TropicBird (Reply 6):
they may still cancel the RERP

I doubt they'd cancel RERP for the B models, especially since its already been approved, and partially funded. The RERP was already cancelled for the A models, and even the money thats saved from doing that is only going to get a handful of C-17s.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 2:01 am



Quoting Galaxy5007 (Reply 7):
Quoting TropicBird (Reply 6):
748 instead.

Ain't going to happen.

Why not?
 
Flighty
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 3:22 am



Quoting TropicBird (Reply 8):
Why not?

We have gone round and round on this in these threads the last few months. Most of us agree the 748F will be a great pallet freighter. Maybe the best ever. But the US military needs its existing C-17 and C-5 still. They can't throw away the C-5. And they would never throw away the C-17. So there you have it. At least that is what "we" decided here on a.net I guess.
 
TropicBird
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:27 pm

My reading of the issue is that between the C-5 and C-17 the USAF has enough oversize & outsize capability but that they could use more palletized capabilities. The recent GAO report on C-5 & C-17's talked about buying more C-17's but they would be much less efficient and cost effective than a 748. We need to buy smart. Just some numbers to consider:

Distance from Dover AFB (DOV) to Ramstein AFB (RMS) 3,449 nm.

C-5 payload/range 270,000 lbs and 2,650 nm

C-17 payload/range 169,000 lbs and 2,400 nm

747-8F payload/range 295,000 lbs and 4,435 nm (Boeing estimate)

So the 747-8 can carry more payload and nonstop. The other two must stop for fuel, air refuel or cut the payload to carry more fuel. None of the options are very efficient when compared to the 748 alternative.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:06 pm

We don't need to re-visit the 748 idea in this thread. Its been talked about enough in the C-17C as a C-5 replacement thread. Nothing is replacing the C-5 but a new aircraft that operates like the C-5. Best choice for that right now? Modernize the B models, and get rid of the As. The USAF already contracts out 747s, and is cheaper to do that then to own and operate them. Give it up, the USAF isn't buying 748s anytime soon. They are more concerned about the F-35 and KC-45. The only reason why this is an arguement is because funding is either A-going to more C-17s, or B-RERPing the C-5Bs. 748s are out of the equation here.
 
gsosbee
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:43 pm



Quoting Galaxy5007 (Reply 11):
They are more concerned about the F-35 and KC-45.

Not quite. Right now they are fighting over the F-22. Once that fight is over, they will settle the tanker issue by announcing a sustainment program for the -135's and 10's, and push those funds into fighters (F-22's and F-35's). The CSAR issue became dead when it was announced that some in the Air Force (and on the joint staff) were questioning the need for a dedicated CSAR aircraft (use available assets instead).

Use of commercial carriers denies the blow hards in Congress the ability to show how they are bringing jobs to their districts for new build airplanes. Therefore, if Boeing can make the case, throwing 748's into the fleet mix is not out of the question. [Forget the sub-fleet argument - these guys only think in jobs created terms. The standard line will be we (Congress) fund the air force and if they need more money to run a sub-fleet all they have ot do is ask.]
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Dec 16, 2008 11:41 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 12):
Right now they are fighting over the F-22

Thats what I meant to put on there. The F-35 is its own issue ATM. The F-22s expense is a killer.

Boeing has a better chance in building tankers that can do the duel role. I'm not starting a tanker war in this thread, but I am stating that a new tanker is a need. I like the 135s, but we need a new tanker. Building 748s for the military just for palletized cargo is a waste of money. Cargo jets all have duel roles one way or another. The C-5 is mainly outsized cargo. The C-17 can handle some of that, and they use it for medevac missions. The 130 has so many possible configurations, that its nuts. Buying a plane just for pallets, not enough people would approve of the idea. Even if they strengthened the floors, and designed it so you could drive cargo on and off, the costs wouldn't be justified, when it would cost half or more than half to modernize the C-5Bs and sustain the As, versus buying new 250+ million dollar new aircraft.
 
JoeinTX
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Dec 17, 2008 8:15 am

Agree, the USAF doesn't have any need in owning a large force of pallet planes. They can contract or,in times of emergency, induct various parts of the civilian commercial fleet to haul people, pallets, or non-outsized items thus no real need. Having a new tanker than can handle a dual role is a big plus.


While I'm a proponent of the NG KC-45 entry, which is better at both tanking and cargo, the Boeing entry will still be an improvement over the KC-135. For what it's worth, I think the new Adminstration/USAF will ultimately be pressured into buying the Boeing offering for a variety of reasons everywhere from unions, lobbyists, to the current economic situation with the "buy at home" sentiment whether it actually is or not.
 
zanl188
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Dec 17, 2008 11:26 pm

Have any of the RERPed airplanes hit the enroutes or stages yet?

Any words on RERP departure reliability? I know it's still early & there aren't many aircraft for an analysis but... with 26 years of C-5 tail swaps on the odometer my body aches for a more dependable C-5...  Smile
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Thu Dec 18, 2008 1:42 am



Quoting ZANL188 (Reply 15):
Have any of the RERPed airplanes hit the enroutes or stages yet?

Any words on RERP departure reliability? I know it's still early & there aren't many aircraft for an analysis but... with 26 years of C-5 tail swaps on the odometer my body aches for a more dependable C-5...

None of the C-5Ms have flown on any missions yet. All the flights prior to the first delivery to the USAF last week, were test flights. Operational Test and Evaluation will begin shortly after the delivery of the Ms to Dover in February. Its going to be slow, probably start with flights back and forth from Dover to Ramstein to get the enroute personnel trained on the differences.

The departure reliability reported from Lockheed was 88.5% of the RERP testbeds. The problems that nixed flights were legacy problems (nitro leak, flap and slat assymetry problems, gear malfunctions and hydraulic leaks (which were actually kept to a minimum)).
 
zanl188
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Thu Dec 18, 2008 2:49 am

Looks like they've been doing some cold weather testing....

http://www.af.mil/news/story_media.asp?id=123128554
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Thu Dec 18, 2008 5:11 am

Interesting that they announced all the testing complete over a month ago, but here they are still doing testing. Interesting indeed. Nice to see some pictures of it. That would be its first flight out of the CONUS (although it was rumored that 6013 went around the world stopping in Ramstein, Yokota, and Hickam). Can anyone confirm that trip?
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:30 pm



Quoting Galaxy5007 (Reply 16):
None of the C-5Ms have flown on any missions yet. All the flights prior to the first delivery to the USAF last week, were test flights. Operational Test and Evaluation will begin shortly after the delivery of the Ms to Dover in February. Its going to be slow, probably start with flights back and forth from Dover to Ramstein to get the enroute personnel trained on the differences

Looks like the C-5Ms are going to start real world missions in the first Quarter of FY10. Until then, they'll be used for training, and tech data validation.
 
seefivein
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:45 am

Col. Jim Dendis, commander of the 730th Aircraft Sustainment Group, the Warner Robins Air Logistics Center agency charged with management of the C-5 fleet for the Air Force.--

a new mobility/capabilities study, due out in May, could reshuffle the mix of cargo aircraft needed for the future


Any one else heard about the study
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:57 pm

I have heard about a study, but not on who was doing it. The bad part about most studies the USAF does is the fact that they usually end up being a year old or more. I'm sure we'll see all kinds of fun stuff in the coming year about the cargo fleet.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Sat Dec 27, 2008 2:12 am

http://www.robins.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123128892
Looks like the folks at Robins are happy to see the C-5M. The story also verifies that 6013 is going to PDM next year, and isn't going to be re-painted prior to delivery. I found out from a friend of mine that 86-0025 is supposed to be the first C-5M to Dover, and the welcome ceremony is scheduled for February 5th, 2009.
271 days, wow, normal C-5 is about 220. Luckily, most of the structural issues are already fixed, as they were discovered during the developmental phases (which led to the cost over runs).
 
seefivein
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Jan 20, 2009 10:20 am

C-5M Super Galaxy completes developmental testing in Alaska, Australia


by Lt. Col. Christopher Lindell
418th Flight Test Squadron Detachment 4

1/12/2009 - EDWARDS AIR FORCE BASE, Calif. -- The C-5M Super Galaxy completed its second and final Integrated Systems Evaluation test, flying a 56-hour, 27,000-mile mission around the Pacific Rim, including stops in Alaska and Australia.

The C-5 Reliability Enhancement and Re-engining Program is the second major improvement project for the largest aircraft in the U.S. inventory. The RERP adds new General Electric CF-6 engines as well as 55 other system improvements intended to increase the C-5's reliability.

The first improvement project, Avionics Modernization Program, installed digital avionics and a full glass cockpit, allowing the plane to meet current airspace requirements for navigational accuracy and air traffic management. All C-5s are scheduled to receive AMP modifications, which are currently ongoing at Dover and Travis Air Force Bases and currently, 49 C-5s are programmed to receive the RERP modification. When a C-5 has both AMP and RERP modifications, it is re-designated a C-5M Super Galaxy.

The objective of an ISE is to test the aircraft in an operationally-representative environment. Specific objectives for the second ISE included hot and cold weather operations, air refueling, and tactics. The first ISE was flown in the European theater in August, and this one expanded the test team's experience to the Pacific Theater.
Mariusz Wisniewski, a C-5 flight test engineer and key mission planner, said all objectives were met.

"We didn't get quite as hot and cold as we had hoped," he said. "We were able to subject the C-5M to environments ranging from 100 degrees in the Australian outback to minus 22 degrees Fahrenheit in the Alaskan tundra within the span of two days."

The ISE was successful despite landing gear problems, which extended the mission from 11 to 14 days, said Lance Strickland, mission test conductor.

"The most problematic issues were thrust reversers, auto throttles, and environmental cooling system," Mr. Strickland said. "However, air refueling and fuel consumption data are encouraging."

Data collected during the ISE will be used to evaluate the readiness of the C-5M for operational tests.

Maj. Aaron Tucker, experimental test pilot and ISE test force commander, said he was pleased that air refueling contacts with both a KC-135 Stratotanker and KC-10 Extender showed that the C-5M can safely and effectively execute an air refueling critical to the strategic airlift mission.

"All previous contacts had a test nose boom installed," he said. "However, this ISE was flown in an operationally-representative configuration, meaning all of the specialized flight test instrumentation had been removed. This configuration is what the operational crews will fly.The C-5M handled well while air refueling with only a noticeable change in the more sensitive throttle response of the CF-6 engines compared to the original TF-39 engines on the A, B and C variations of C-5."

Major Tucker supervised several other test pilots during air refueling to enable the evaluation of the C-5M air refueling handling qualities. He will instruct the initial cadre of Air Mobility Command pilots in January.

Major Tucker gave his highest praise for the enroute bases that provided exceptional support to the test team. Eielson Air Force Base closed a taxiway for six weeks, letting snow to accumulate to allow taxi testing. Australia flew customs agents more than 600 miles inland to Alice Springs so the team could forgo a port of entry stop elsewhere.

"I can't believe the level of support we got," Major Tucker said "People stood in the heat for hours just to watch us take off. Airport personnel worked around the clock. This integrated systems evaluation is the capstone event in the developmental test program intended to improve the performance and reliability of America's largest airlifter. The C-5M Super Galaxy will further America's Global Reach with improved capability to support any mission from humanitarian assistance to combat support of the Global War on Terror by delivering more cargo, faster, while using less gas."

This ISE was the last developmental test event for the C-5M. Over the last three years, the Marietta, Ga., based combined test team of the 418th Flight Test Squadron Detachment 4, Lockheed Martin, and Air Force Operational Test and Evaluation Center completed a test program of 5,400 test points in 1,300 flight test hours.

Air Mobility Command will start flying two aircraft in February out of Dover Air Force Base, and the C-5M is scheduled to begin operational test in August 2009. The 418 FLTS will close its Detachment 4 at Marietta in April 2009.
 
gsosbee
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Tue Jan 20, 2009 3:19 pm

Not sure that this is a "glowing" report; however operational test people generally are more down to earth than flight certification people (where if they get up and down in one piece = successful mission).

Everything except the landing gear problems appear to be understandable and certainly correctable. If the landing gear problem involves the hydraulics, there are still issues that need to be addressed.
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Jan 21, 2009 12:04 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 24):
Everything except the landing gear problems appear to be understandable and certainly correctable. If the landing gear problem involves the hydraulics, there are still issues that need to be addressed.

RERP doesn't address anything with the gears, most of the hydraulic system, the environmental system and the flap and slat system. the slats were altered for the new pylons, but that was it. The only thing new with the hydraulic system is the reworked hydraulic lines for the new engine/pylons, new suction line fittings, new ATM pumps, and engine pumps, and new improved suction boost pumps. All of the flight control actuators were supposed to be replaced with rebuilt parts, and that was implemented in the ISO process on the regular C-5s, where every other ISO the flight control manifolds get replaced. There are several issues that aren't covered in RERP, but RERP takes care of a good chunk of problems. The TF-39s got a TCTO a few years ago, and those engines have been running great since then. Not nearly as many engine runs for troubleshooting problems. As complex as the gear system is, no matter what you do, you are always going to have an issue pop up from time to time. Alot of mechanical stuff has to go right. Only thing electrical about the gears are the sensors, and pilot valves to actuate things. Everything else is mechanical linkages and hydraulics.

The environmental system and dewar system definately needs an upgrade-IMO. Most of the time consuming items are related to sheet metal repairs now adays.
 
seefivein
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Jan 21, 2009 1:31 am



Quoting Galaxy5007 (Reply 25):
Most of the time consuming items are related to sheet metal repairs now adays

are there reasons given for the sheet metal repairs,, is it the same on all the C5's - or different reasons?
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Thu Jan 22, 2009 5:05 am



Quoting Seefivein (Reply 26):
are there reasons given for the sheet metal repairs,, is it the same on all the C5's - or different reasons?

Some of the skin cracks are only isolated to the A models. Other ones are random from bird strikes, delams, and dents, that are on all the C-5s. Alot of the C-5 structure is honeycomb aluminum, and its a pain in the butt to repair. Sheet metal shop at Dover pulls alot of BS and makes them take parts off the plane to fix it in their cozy shop versus reparing it on the plane. That adds alot of time to repairs as well. Corrosion is an issue on ALL planes, so naturally from time to time, some planes get a bad case of corrosion that require depot level repairs.
 
zanl188
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:04 am



Quoting Galaxy5007 (Reply 22):
I found out from a friend of mine that 86-0025 is supposed to be the first C-5M to Dover, and the welcome ceremony is scheduled for February 5th, 2009.

0025 arrived today...

http://www.dover.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123134749

Curiously when the first C-5 was delivered to Dover back in 1971 there was no arrival ceremony......

http://www.512aw.afrc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123134859
 
Galaxy5007
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RE: Lockheed Delivers First C-5M Super Galaxy To Usaf

Wed Feb 11, 2009 2:25 am

Yup, I went to the ceremony. It was a bit chilly, and the ceremony was a little long, but they did a pretty good job. I posted some pics from my point and shoot here: http://www.fencecheck.com/forums/index.php/topic,18279.0.html

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