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747400sp
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What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:11 pm

I was reading an article in The Navy Times, that stated, that the USN is thinking about reducing the carrier fleet from 11 to 7 to save money. Do you think this is a good ideal?
 
gsosbee
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:14 pm

If you are going to do that, you might as well 4 or 5. Any further draw down from the current status will be criminal, but then in these days the safety and security of the country seemingly are no longer important.
 
UH60FtRucker
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:43 pm



Quoting 747400sp (Thread starter):
I was reading an article in The Navy Times, that stated, that the USN is thinking about reducing the carrier fleet from 11 to 7 to save money. Do you think this is a good ideal?

Why don't you provide a link?
 
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par13del
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:40 am



Quoting UH60FtRucker (Reply 2):
Why don't you provide a link?

Agree

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 1):
If you are going to do that, you might as well 4 or 5.

Would be something to have one carrier deployed, one in reserve replenishing, one for training, and one in maintenance, may as well save more money and have none.
Numbers do not add up for 4 or 5.  Smile
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:20 am

What's the job loss numbers if the fleet drops from 11 to 7 carriers? Just curious to see how massive it would be


-DiamondFlyer
 
dtw9
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:37 am

Not going to happen unless some laws are changed


http://lexingtoninstitute.org/1383.shtml

[Edited 2009-03-26 19:57:46]
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 6:39 am

In an ideal world it would be great to have 15, 20 carriers! Fact is that USN carrier capacity is greater than all other navies combined. Is it really necessary especially as the US is having MASSIVE deficits and that its main borrowings are from its biggest potential rival - China. The more is borrows from China, the more power China has over the US. There is no way that China can hope to match the USN for at least several decades if not 50 years (incidentally the lifespan of a Nimitz Class Carrier).

In the scheme of things a Carrier is small change ($6b vs trillions for current stimulus packages), but overall costs of refuelling, personal, support ships, aircraft, etc cost multiple billions of dollars.
Does the US REALLY need to have an aircraft carrier covering just about every piece of ocean or being within a day or 2's sailing of where its needed? The main hotspots are already covered to some extent by either a carrier or things like the Air Force. If something happens that means the carriers are needed then really that is most likely due to bad intelligence because most events do not JUST happen... military campaigns (ie 1st Gulf War) take days, weeks, months (if not years) of planning. The US has the ability to strike anywhere in the world within 24 hours by USAF aircraft. It has the ability to strike anywhere in the world in hours or less (if it needs to with ICBM and cruise missiles). Even the USN itself has standalone ships and subs that can basically allow it to strike just about anywhere in the world in minutes. A few cruise missiles followed by longrange bombing certainly are enough to deter most militaries allowing week/s for a carrier to get there... Those enemies that have capable defences and aren't deterred by this are the ones that the USN needs to have its carriers nearby to.

I'd love to see lots of USN carriers, but whats the point of having them if you can't afford to operate them, or if what they are defending is going bust? Imagine the interest saved over a lifetime of borrowings for a carrier...

Fleet of 10 is still the most powerful out there (more than all others combined) and provides significant savings to the taxpayer whilst helping the country in the coming financial wars.
 
bennett123
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 9:16 am

DTW9

Having read that item, one thought occured to me.

Was'nt part of the reason why Iraq is still an issue was lack of boots on the ground.

"Shock and Awe" is one thing, but "We do not do nation building" is another.

We have much to thank Mr Rumsfeld for.
 
Lumberton
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:03 pm



Quoting Dtw9 (Reply 5):
Not going to happen unless some laws are changed

 checkmark  Yes but that can be done in the appropriations bill. I've heard the number "nine" bandied about as well.

The days of being the "world policeman" are drawing to a close. 7-9 carriers will provide for a (probably not very timely) "response", but it will spell the end of carriers "on station". Its a risk, but one that must be taken IMO.

However, we must retain the industry that builds these things. If we let the infrastructure atrophy, that would be very short sighted.
 
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par13del
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:20 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 8):
The days of being the "world policeman" are drawing to a close. 7-9 carriers will provide for a (probably not very timely) "response", but it will spell the end of carriers "on station". Its a risk, but one that must be taken IMO.

Do carriers still deploy to the Med, just looking at areas of the world where they may no longer be needed as the climate has changed and if it does get worse again, it's probably going to need more than the US.
 
dragon6172
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:42 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 9):
Do carriers still deploy to the Med, just looking at areas of the world where they may no longer be needed as the climate has changed and if it does get worse again, it's probably going to need more than the US.

East coast carriers yes. I believe they spend most of their time in the eastern Med though, or head through the Suez to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean.
 
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par13del
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:57 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 10):
East coast carriers yes. I believe they spend most of their time in the eastern Med though, or head through the Suez to the Red Sea and Indian Ocean.

Thanks, I was thinking that the Med was one area where they would no longer be needed, certainely won't see Navy air in the Israeli conflict unless the ultimate occurs, Libya is now somewhat back in the fold of nations, the Persian Gulf, Red Sea is understood.
As for the North Atlantic, I would assume that it is now one huge training area, south could be used for some drug interdiction.  Smile
 
Lumberton
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Fri Mar 27, 2009 4:16 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 11):
I was thinking that the Med was one area where they would no longer be needed,

I agree. We would no longer be in a position to maintain full time coverage. As for the Pacific region, the carrier forward deployed to Japan could cover that.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sat Mar 28, 2009 6:09 am

Hmm...

Well, the new America-class LHA's are currently under construction... although they can only carry a smaller air wing of 22 F-35B's and 6 MH-60R Seahawk's... they are cheaper to build and operate (an America-class LHA requires only 1,060 personnel compared a the Ford-class super carrier's crew requirement of over 5,000).

In theory, they could build more America-class LHA's and use them as carriers... have 3 of them replace one Nimitz or Ford class super carriers, and they should be cheaper to buy and run while offering the same level of capabilities. However, the USN would need to develop a STOVL AEW asset, like a AEW version of the V-22 Osprey.
 
BMI727
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sat Mar 28, 2009 7:07 am



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 13):
However, the USN would need to develop a STOVL AEW asset, like a AEW version of the V-22 Osprey.

That's a pretty tall order. I would like to see a sub hunting version of the V-22 though. It seems to me that such a variant could bridge the gap between the SH-60 and P-3/P-8.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 13):
In theory, they could build more America-class LHA's and use them as carriers... have 3 of them replace one Nimitz or Ford class super carriers,

Only as long as they are a supplement to the supercarriers and not a replacement. I'd say keep 12-15 big ones and 15-20 LHAs should keep the world in check assuming nothing major goes wrong.
 
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par13del
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sat Mar 28, 2009 12:23 pm



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 13):
In theory, they could build more America-class LHA's and use them as carriers... have 3 of them replace one Nimitz or Ford class super carriers, and they should be cheaper to buy and run while offering the same level of capabilities.

These ships presently serve a dual purpose, they carry troops and air assets to support them, if you deploy more of them you are essentially putting in place a policy to put more boots on the ground in any conflict - direct involvement -. If you decide to remove the troops, then folks will state the obvious, that the design is not condusive, not enough hanger space, inadequate crew space for the type of personnel on board, etc. etc. etc. the redesign will probably cost almost as much as a Nimitz class carrier, so the bean counters will simply look at it and say why not just spend the extra 20% for the extra 80% capability?

Back to square one.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sun Mar 29, 2009 8:40 am



Quoting Par13del (Reply 15):
These ships presently serve a dual purpose, they carry troops and air assets to support them, if you deploy more of them you are essentially putting in place a policy to put more boots on the ground in any conflict - direct involvement -. If you decide to remove the troops, then folks will state the obvious, that the design is not condusive, not enough hanger space, inadequate crew space for the type of personnel on board, etc. etc. etc. the redesign will probably cost almost as much as a Nimitz class carrier, so the bean counters will simply look at it and say why not just spend the extra 20% for the extra 80% capability?

Back to square one.

Not necessarily, what I'm proposing is a rehashed version of the USN's Sea Control Ship concept. This vessel will have far more multi-function capability, being equally well suited for the air assault role with large numbers of helos and MV-22 Osprey, or other assault configurations, in addition to the Sea Control role with up to 22 F-35B's. If we were able to develop a AEW version of the V-22 Osprey, then these ships would most definitely be considered true medium sized aircraft carriers.

Many nations that don't have true aircraft carriers or small carrier forces do the same. They are multi-role vessels, giving more bang for the buck, able to conduct Sea Control, limited close air support, air assault, amphibious assault, and significant humanitarian support in advancement of the respective nation's national interests.

The USN has done the same; for example, during Operation Iraqi Freedom, 6 USN LHA/LHD's along with RN assets were present in the Gulf, with two of the USN ships outfitted as 'Harrier Carriers' along the lines of the Sea Control Ship concept. The concept appears to be very valid and with the F-35B plus a AEW version of the V-22 Osprey, we can go beyond what the original concept proposers were thinking of when the USN developed the Sea Control Ship concept back in the 1970's.
 
dragon6172
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:13 pm



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 16):
The USN has done the same; for example, during Operation Iraqi Freedom, 6 USN LHA/LHD's along with RN assets were present in the Gulf, with two of the USN ships outfitted as 'Harrier Carriers' along the lines of the Sea Control Ship concept.

They did that more because combined helo and jet ops are a pain in the ass with deck cycles and what not.
 
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par13del
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RE: What If The USN Reduce Carrier Fleet To 7

Sun Mar 29, 2009 1:19 pm



Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 16):
The USN has done the same; for example, during Operation Iraqi Freedom, 6 USN LHA/LHD's along with RN assets were present in the Gulf, with two of the USN ships outfitted as 'Harrier Carriers' along the lines of the Sea Control Ship concept.

That was the idea I was addressing, using the existing ships and or designs currently deployed on in production, I was not considering a new build design, my bad  Smile
As a temporary solution that works, but I agree with you, if the ships are to be permanently used as such a new design would "most likely" be required.

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