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JoeCanuck
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The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:17 pm

How many billions of dollars have been spent on this thing and they can't afford a torque wrench...?

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...olts-points-to-design-problem.html

Quote:
US Naval Air Systems Command confirms today that a fifth MV-22 -- and the first US-based aircraft – is afflicted with the same “loose bolts” problem that caused the fleet to be grounded earlier this week

This discovery means all “high-time” V-22 airframes may have a safety-critical design problem, and is not isolated to the four Iraq-based MV-22s previously found with the problem.

The bolts are used to attach a swashplate that controls the pitch of the propeller blade. If the swashplate comes loose during flight, the aircraft could crash.

“You would essentially lose control of the aircraft,” Col Matt Mulhern, V-22 programme manager, told FlightGlobal.com.



[Edited 2009-03-26 16:18:27]
What the...?
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 11231
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:04 am

I actually like the MV-22 but this is a pretty ridiculous problem to have. Either poor engineering or manufacturing.
Have they ever heard of Loctite Threadlocker?
http://www.loctiteproducts.com/produ.../subcategory.asp?CatID=10&SubID=48
Or these?
https://www.inventables.com/technologies/vibration-proof-self-locking-bolt

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
There are many kinds of sentences that we think state facts about the world but that are really just expressions of our attitudes. - F. Ramsey
 
Alessandro
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 7:58 am

Been very quiet about the V-22 for a while now, so any news which isn´t crashrelated is good.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
JoeCanuck
Topic Author
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:45 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 2):
Been very quiet about the V-22 for a while now, so any news which isn´t crashrelated is good.

I dunno...landing your super expensive and much maligned bit of kit and finding swashplate bolts rattling around in the engine nacelles seems not so good to me. What I find surprising is that this isn't an isolated case.

I hope these things have a good warranty.
What the...?
 
CTR
Posts: 299
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 10:51 am

Joe,

You need to get some realistic perspective. Your not so cheap Canadian EH101s from all reports have not been trouble free. Plus your selected replacement, a militarized S-92 is years late, grossly over budget and a civilian S-92 just crashed this month from what available evidence appears to be a main gearbox failure.

You may wish to double check you warranty.

Have fun,

CTR
Aircraft design is just one big compromise,,,
 
kingairta
Posts: 454
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:22 pm

Different metal alloys expand and contract at different rates. Loc-tite won't fill gaps created by expansion.

Sounds more like an extra step is required durring daily inspections until upgraged parts are installed.
 
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par13del
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 1:23 pm



Quoting Ctr (Reply 4):
Plus your selected replacement, a militarized S-92 is years late, grossly over budget and a civilian S-92 just crashed this month from what available evidence appears to be a main gearbox failure.

What is troubling about this one is that the vendor already recognized the gear box problem, question is how fast are they attempting correction of the problem.

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
I dunno...landing your super expensive and much maligned bit of kit and finding swashplate bolts rattling around in the engine nacelles seems not so good to me. What I find surprising is that this isn't an isolated case.

We have all heard that the a/c was in extensive testing and use in the US before deployment to Iraq, so it begs the question. If this is a simple case of a screw working loose, it appears to be tied to a certain number of cycles, or if not may be related to the environment in which the a/c is operating. Either way, the fix has to be more than just tightning the nuts  Smile
 
redflyer
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:19 pm



Quoting Ctr (Reply 4):
Joe,

You need to get some realistic perspective. Your not so cheap Canadian EH101s from all reports have not been trouble free. Plus your selected replacement, a militarized S-92 is years late, grossly over budget and a civilian S-92 just crashed this month from what available evidence appears to be a main gearbox failure.

You may wish to double check you warranty.

Have fun,

CTR

I'm sure Joe can answer for himself, but I have to say this kind of thing is not restricted to any particular flag. It's reflective of how the most expensive and complex hardware can be brought down by the most simple of things. Shoddy workmanship and lack of oversight is prevalent regardless of how much money is spent, which is why the amount of money spent often times does not correlate with an increase in quality.
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
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par13del
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 2:25 pm



Quoting RedFlyer (Reply 7):
Shoddy workmanship and lack of oversight is prevalent regardless of how much money is spent, which is why the amount of money spent often times does not correlate with an increase in quality.

Lowering the quality of the thread:

One can argue that it is reflective of the primary reasons the programs get so bloated and expensive, its about jobs first and product later. I do not mean to imply that workers are deliberately doing shoddy work, but based on the quality and numerous maintenance issue in new programs, something is definately off the rail.

Looked at an article on CNN last night on the electrical wiring at bases in Iraq, what type of explanation is acceptable for something like that, and if troops had not died, would it even have risen to the level of the national press?
 
redflyer
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 5:31 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 8):
One can argue that it is reflective of the primary reasons the programs get so bloated and expensive, its about jobs first and product later.

 checkmark 

I'll take it even one step further and say it is reflective of government bureaucracy. Has there ever been ANY government program anywhere in the world that did NOT suffer from these issues?
A government big enough to take away a constitutionally guaranteed right is a government big enough to take away any guaranteed right. A government big enough to give you everything you need is a government big enough to take away everything you have.
 
JoeCanuck
Topic Author
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Mar 27, 2009 8:38 pm



Quoting Ctr (Reply 4):

You need to get some realistic perspective. Your not so cheap Canadian EH101s from all reports have not been trouble free. Plus your selected replacement, a militarized S-92 is years late, grossly over budget and a civilian S-92 just crashed this month from what available evidence appears to be a main gearbox failure.

I don't think I've held either of those programs up as marvels of modern military acquisition. The EH-101 program has been a train wreck for decades and the S-92 has also been a debacle.

This particular story though, was about loose swashplate bolts on the V-22. You won't find me disagreeing that there are other military programs which have gone horribly wrong.
What the...?
 
Alessandro
Posts: 4961
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Sat Mar 28, 2009 4:56 am



Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
I dunno...landing your super expensive and much maligned bit of kit and finding swashplate bolts rattling around in the engine nacelles seems not so good to me. What I find surprising is that this isn't an isolated case.

I hope these things have a good warranty.

Well, the V-22 is basically walking new path and lot of problems are expected, even after 20 years of flying. I think all new military aviation programmes will run into problems since they
need to improve the already good flight standard of this current generation.
Sure they´re expensive, I actually surprised though that no one else like Norway or UK has bought them, could be very useful in assisting oilplatforms and ships in an emergency.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
rwessel
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Joined: Tue Jan 16, 2007 3:47 pm

RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Sat Mar 28, 2009 8:02 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 11):
Sure they´re expensive, I actually surprised though that no one else like Norway or UK has bought them, could be very useful in assisting oilplatforms and ships in an emergency.

You could buy two CH-53s for the price of one Osprey. They'll lift more too. You'd give up some range, and 100kts of speed, but they'd be more suited to the rescue mission. Undoubtedly a fair cheaper to maintain and fly too.
 
Alessandro
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Sun Mar 29, 2009 12:45 am



Quoting Rwessel (Reply 12):
You could buy two CH-53s for the price of one Osprey. They'll lift more too. You'd give up some range, and 100kts of speed, but they'd be more suited to the rescue mission. Undoubtedly a fair cheaper to maintain and fly too.

Sure and you can buy Mil-17 also if you want to cut cost.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Oroka
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 1:42 am

Hmmmm.... how many aircraft of this configuration has the USAF and USMC operated in the past?

It is a new design concept, new, unforeseen maintenance issues will arise.
 
ZBBYLW
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:59 am

Quick question regarding the V-22, what happens in the event of an engine failure can the operating engine create any thrust at lower speeds? What is the Vmc when flying around? It looks like it would be a death sentence to have an engine fail on that thing, even in "plane" mode.
Keep the shinny side up!
 
dragon6172
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 9:53 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 15):
Quick question regarding the V-22, what happens in the event of an engine failure can the operating engine create any thrust at lower speeds? What is the Vmc when flying around? It looks like it would be a death sentence to have an engine fail on that thing, even in "plane" mode.

There are a set of shafts that connect the nacelles through the wing. If one engine loses power, the other engine can drive both prop rotors.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
It is a new design concept, new, unforeseen maintenance issues will arise.

This is true for the aircraft as a whole, but I do not see how this applies to keeping bolts from coming loose. Cotter pins, lock wire, positive retention bolts, etc. No need to re-invent the wheel on how to keep bolts tight.
Phrogs Phorever
 
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par13del
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 11:23 am



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 16):
Cotter pins, lock wire, positive retention bolts, etc. No need to re-invent the wheel on how to keep bolts tight.

There is only so much money you can charge for using existing technology, it does not aid R&D or a companies bottom line which is essential to the viability of the enterprize and future products.  Smile
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 2:13 pm



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 16):
This is true for the aircraft as a whole, but I do not see how this applies to keeping bolts from coming loose. Cotter pins, lock wire, positive retention bolts, etc. No need to re-invent the wheel on how to keep bolts tight.

 checkmark 

All you need is a drill and some baling wire.  Wink
 
JoeCanuck
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Mon Mar 30, 2009 6:57 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 14):
It is a new design concept, new, unforeseen maintenance issues will arise.

One can expect that the Fly by wire and tilt rotor systems would be troublesome...but they should have had the bolt concept worked out. One might expect that they would have figured out , righty tighty, lefty loosey by now.
What the...?
 
Alessandro
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Tue Mar 31, 2009 6:01 am



Quoting ZBBYLW (Reply 15):
Quick question regarding the V-22, what happens in the event of an engine failure can the operating engine create any thrust at lower speeds? What is the Vmc when flying around? It looks like it would be a death sentence to have an engine fail on that thing, even in "plane" mode.

It can´t windmill to the ground like a helicopter. Plane mode is still a problem since it must land VTOL.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
rwessel
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Tue Mar 31, 2009 9:05 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 13):
Sure and you can buy Mil-17 also if you want to cut cost.

But the point is why would you buy a more expensive aircraft less suited to the SAR mission?

Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
It can´t windmill to the ground like a helicopter. Plane mode is still a problem since it must land VTOL.

While an autorotation looks unlikely in many/most cases, a horizontal (airplane-like) landing is not a particular problem - the prop/rotors will be shredded (by design), and you'll likely have a fair bit of related damage, but the landing should be highly survivable.
 
jrw261
Posts: 35
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:17 am



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 20):
It can´t windmill to the ground like a helicopter. Plane mode is still a problem since it must land VTOL.

Read up on the XV-15.
http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/bell_xv-15.php

What supporting data do you have that indicates the V-22 can't Auto?
 
dragon6172
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Fri Apr 03, 2009 2:34 pm

The Pentagon, Office of Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of the Director (September 2005) – V-22 Osprey Program: Report on Operational and Live Fire Test and Evaluation
(OT-IIG) states:

Quote:
“Emergency landing after the sudden failure of both engines in the Conversion/Vertical Take-Off and Landing modes below 1,600 feet altitude are not likely to be survivable. The V-22 cannot [author emphasis] autorotate to a safe landing.”

Thus the reason it was removed as a requirement. NAVAIR claims that the wings provide enough lift to glide at speeds as low as 40 knots. Not sure what rate of decent that is at.
Phrogs Phorever
 
Alessandro
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RE: The V-22 Has A Few Screws Loose...

Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:45 am



Quoting Dragon6172 (Reply 23):
The Pentagon, Office of Operational Test and Evaluation, Office of the Director (September 2005) – V-22 Osprey Program: Report on Operational and Live Fire Test and Evaluation
(OT-IIG) states:

Quote:
“Emergency landing after the sudden failure of both engines in the Conversion/Vertical Take-Off and Landing modes below 1,600 feet altitude are not likely to be survivable. The V-22 cannot [author emphasis] autorotate to a safe landing.”

Thus the reason it was removed as a requirement. NAVAIR claims that the wings provide enough lift to glide at speeds as low as 40 knots. Not sure what rate of decent that is at.

More here, the demand for autorotation was abandon in 2002, bottom 1st page.
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1665835,00.html
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