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redflyer
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F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:48 pm

Just breaking: Looks like SoD Gates wants to shut down F22 production.

Quote:
Gates announced a broad range of cuts Monday to weapons spending, saying he plans to cut programs ranging from a new helicopter for the president to ending production of the $140 billion F-22 fighter jet.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090406/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/defense_budget
 
kingairta
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:16 pm

So much for economic stimulus.
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:28 pm

So no money for the world's greatest ever jet fighter but Obama can spend a trillion dollars on God knows what.  Angry
 
powercube
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:16 pm

I woke up to find this out, has to be a bad omen. I'm not an American but I'm truly sorry you're being denied the best your country can make.
 
PPVRA
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:47 pm

Wow, did not expect the F22 to get cut.

How many have been delivered so far though? Certainly 100+, no?
 
redflyer
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 9:57 pm



Quoting PPVRA (Reply 5):
How many have been delivered so far though? Certainly 100+, no?

That number seems about right as the last batch of 60 was approved back in 2007, which would take production to 187 and through, I believe, 2012.

If Gates and the Obama administration can keep the political forces at bay and really manage to halt production after the last batch is delivered, this might breath some life into allowing the bird to be exported. But I just can't see the politicians whose districts have a stake in the program rolling over without a fight and allowing the program to die. And LM, being the defense giant that they are (meaning lobbying $$$), they are not going to go down without a fight either.
 
tsra
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:18 pm

Gates stops the F-22 but wants 2442 F-35s? Why? Why not get more F-22s and less F-35s?
 
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Moose135
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:06 pm



Quoting Tsra (Reply 7):
Why not get more F-22s and less F-35s?

Because the F-35 has many more roles than the F-22, and has a sizable foreign market, which the F-22 does not have.
 
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Stitch
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:41 pm

187 F22s should be enough to keep China honest and they're the only "Tier One" foreign power we're going to face over the next few decades.

The "grand wars" authors like Tom Clancy and Dale Brown wrote were fictional and I for one am glad Gates gets that now and is re-tooling the Department of Defense for the small-scale "brush battles" we'll be fighting going forward.

[Edited 2009-04-06 16:42:17]
 
474218
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:15 am

The budget still has to get through the House of Representatives and the Senate. There is a good chance that since so may jobs are riding on the F-22, in so many states, that money will be added for additional aircraft. Its happened before and I predict it will happen again.

Remember the Air Force says they need 60 more Raptors, its the Pentagon brass that wants to halt production.
 
texl1649
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:18 am

The budget is being passed now as a reconciliation bill, so both houses will be able to just give him what he wants. Who knew that the only thing we can't spend money on is defense? Oh well, war on terror is over so I guess it fits the narrative.
 
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Stitch
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:58 am



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 11):
Oh well, war on terror is over so I guess it fits the narrative.

Yes, the F-22 has been a very crucial weapon in engaging militia inside Iraqi houses...  Wink
 
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Devilfish
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:02 am



Quoting Moose135 (Reply 7):
Because the F-35 has many more roles than the F-22, and has a sizable foreign market, which the F-22 does not have.



Quoting Stitch (Reply 11):
Yes, the F-22 has been a very crucial weapon in engaging militia inside Iraqi houses...

I wonder if the Silent Eagle would now suddenly become interesting?  scratchchin  .....

http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/photos/f-15se/images/28535/boeing-f-15se.jpg
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace...5se/images/28535/boeing-f-15se.jpg
 
JTR
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:10 am



Quoting TexL1649 (Reply 10):
Oh well, war on terror is over so I guess it fits the narrative.

I hear the dogfights the Air Force has been having against Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Iraqi Insurgency have been legendary.
 
checksixx
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:33 am



Quoting JTR (Reply 13):
I hear the dogfights the Air Force has been having against Al Qaeda, the Taliban and the Iraqi Insurgency have been legendary.

Really? None of us have heard anything like that. Of course all the fighters providing CAS are worthless to everyone, right? No, I think not. The two opinions cannot be mixed as they are different bags.
 
Alessandro
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:07 am

So a new presidental helicopter won´t be ordered? Which helicopter did they intend to use?
 
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SeJoWa
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:21 pm

I wish the practice of flinging arguments that don't belong together for the sake of being vociferously indignant could be curtailed just a bit.

Sorting out years of financial irresponsibility that have finally come to a head (at least we do return to reality sooner or later) doesn't mean we can live it up and have it all. In fact, spending lots of money unwisely leads to castles in the sky in the Pentagon too, to the detriment of real needs.

I do think we need more F-22s though, because a weapon system available in such low numbers is extremely exposed to smart counterattacks, and the cost of future upgrades per plane becomes ludicrous.

Regarding expensive fighter jets patrolling the skies to counter insurgencies, we need a lot of cheaper and highly effective aircraft from the A-10 on down in that role. Sometimes I wonder if a thousand old Thunderbolts with modern electronics wouldn't be better to have... (almost joke)

In the final analysis, I'd rather have some acquisition discipline restored than another hundred F-22s. Oh wait, I'm lying. Hard choices are just that.
 
bennett123
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:12 pm

IMO, there are two issues here;

1. How does the F35 compare qualitywise with the potential opposition.

2. How many A10's at DM that could be returned to service.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:12 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 8):
The "grand wars" authors like Tom Clancy and Dale Brown wrote were fictional and I for one am glad Gates gets that now and is re-tooling the Department of Defense for the small-scale "brush battles" we'll be fighting going forward.

The assumption that all we'll see in the future is brush battles is unsettling. No one can predict history and, as the old saying goes, history repeats itself. There's no absolute assurance there will never be another world war.
 
bennett123
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:34 pm

The problem with that approach is the DoD swallows the entire economy.

Furthermore, AFAIK the US can defeat any current threat.

Whilst new threats can develop in the next 20 years, you have 20 years to develop the ability to meet them.

For the foreseeable future you are looking at low intensity war.
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:52 pm



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 18):
The assumption that all we'll see in the future is brush battles is unsettling. No one can predict history and, as the old saying goes, history repeats itself. There's no absolute assurance there will never be another world war.

Yes.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
For the foreseeable future you are looking at low intensity war.

Famous last words. Actually the world is more dangerous now than it was during the Cold War. Now the idea of a large scale war without setting off a nuclear holocaust is a very real possibility. All of those fictional accounts of grand wars are now back on the table as potential reality. We are taking a very serious, and I would say stupid, risk by cutting our best program.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
Whilst new threats can develop in the next 20 years, you have 20 years to develop the ability to meet them.

The F-22 took about that long to get to this point. Also, let's remember that not all wars can be seen twenty years off. These things happen quickly. The focus should not be on small scale war. The key is flexibility. The ability to quickly meet a threat and take care of it are very important. We are already thinking of tomorrow, but it seems to be happening at the expense of today. We can't see a threat and have a cool new jet to kill it in a matter of weeks. It just doesn't work that way.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
The problem with that approach is the DoD swallows the entire economy.

Right now the government seems to be swallowing the whole economy. I'll take the jets and at least have something to show for my trillion.
 
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Stitch
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:12 pm



Quoting DEVILFISH (Reply 12):
I wonder if the Silent Eagle would now suddenly become interesting?  scratchchin 

Well Boeing is offering this for air forces that cannot get the F-22, so now that the USAF isn't getting any more F-22s... Big grin

Seriously, it would be interesting to see how much of the technology the "Silent Eagle" uses could be incorporated in existing USAF F-15Cs and F-15Es.



Quoting EBJ1248650 (Reply 18):
The assumption that all we'll see in the future is brush battles is unsettling. No one can predict history and, as the old saying goes, history repeats itself. There's no absolute assurance there will never be another world war.

I'd posit we're already in a world war, since terrorism is a worldwide issue.



Quoting Alessandro (Reply 15):
So a new presidential helicopter won´t be ordered? Which helicopter did they intend to use?

They would soldier on with the existing fleet, I imagine. Or maybe issue a new RFP.
 
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par13del
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:36 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
Seriously, it would be interesting to see how much of the technology the "Silent Eagle" uses could be incorporated in existing USAF F-15Cs and F-15Es

Why not simply buy new frames and retire the C models which have had structural issues. If Boeing is smart and looking at the financial reality, they should offer a bulk discount for a larger purchase and promise to build as fast as they can, get them out the door before congress does a mind change.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 21):
They would soldier on with the existing fleet, I imagine. Or maybe issue a new RFP.

Seen proposals to use new 4 blade composite rotors which may require some strengthing of the frames. If this is a viable options, it would make me feel good to know that the professionals who make these multi-billion decisions are no different than I am, want new toys when the existing one simple needs new batteries  Smile
 
MCIGuy
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:01 pm

Two millionth verse, same as the first....

Welcome to the Carter administration!
Can't say I didn't see it coming, some old "cut defense and give to worthless domestic programs".
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:12 pm



Quoting MCIGuy (Reply 23):
Welcome to the Carter administration!
Can't say I didn't see it coming, some old "cut defense and give to worthless domestic programs".

Yep that's about the size of it. Pretty sad really. Except, I would make darn sure that the USS Obama is a zodiac boat.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:37 pm

Hey what about a peace dividend for everybody. Is it me or does sound like I should reread George Orwell's 1984 again? To our European friends you guys better be ready to cowboy up because we are not going to be there for you when the ball drops, we are broke. Like how SOD Gates kicked the new tanker can down the road for new bids, I dont think the cabal of retired USAF Generals will be able to steer this to their paying clients. Sikorski better start making plans for the VH-53K if they want in on the game since the S-92 is not getting a look. That would be interesting see a CH-53 landing on the south lawn.
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:52 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 25):
Sikorski better start making plans for the VH-53K if they want in on the game since the S-92 is not getting a look. That would be interesting see a CH-53 landing on the south lawn.

I get the sentiment, but I hope that combat aircraft receive priority over Presidential helicopters.
 
seefivein
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:57 pm

This is bad all around. Some reports say 25,000 jobs are on the line here. This looks more like to cut work for the ones that may have supported the other canidiate?

jus my 2 cents here.
 
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:02 pm



Quoting Seefivein (Reply 27):
This looks more like to cut work for the ones that may have supported the other canidiate?

Might be more plausible if SecDef Gates wasn't nominated by Republican George W. Bush.
 
bennett123
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:05 pm

BMI727

"We can't see a threat and have a cool new jet to kill it in a matter of weeks. It just doesn't work that way".

Equally China/N Korea or whoever can not create that new threat in a matter of weeks either.

If any other nation was close to parity, I could understand your nerves.

However, if the F22's that you have already, plus the F15/F16 and soon F35 are anywhere near as good as billed, then any other nation will take years to reach where the USAF is now. There is also the USN/USMC with further substancial air power.
 
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par13del
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:19 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 25):
That would be interesting see a CH-53 landing on the south lawn.

It was tried before, need a new rose garden if chosen or a new landing spot.

Quoting Seefivein (Reply 27):
Some reports say 25,000 jobs are on the line here. This looks more like to cut work for the ones that may have supported the other canidiate?

Here's the thing, if you want to provides jobs for people that can be done, it does not have to be hidden under some military program that the war fighters or congress do not want, there are enough day to day infrastructure and other development items within the country that the money could be spent on, and a lot of them will not incur the foreign sentiment that the US is not spending its stimulus money abroad.

How about high speed rail, surely American cpmpanies can design cars rather than purchase from Canada or elsewhere, laying new tracks, building better school buses for the kids, include public transportation buses also, better trucks for the the inter-state cargo haulers, sure other's can think of more places where these jobs could be if a F-22 is not being built. Remember we are talking about jobs in terms of numbers, not the individual one's on the line of the individual programs.

As for the F-35, not sure I like this single engine a/c being the end all of CAS support and low volume fighter a/c, yes the F-16 was also a single engine a/c and yes the Air Force did turn it into a CAS a/c, but it was designed to complement the larger F-15 and was a true fighter a/c, the Air Force only used it for CAS because they wanted to dump the A-10, lets not forget that, the professional war fighters wanted to dump one of the best CAS birds the US Air Force had had in a long time, only the congress kept it going.

In the end, I guess it shows that you need both types. The C-17, the C-5 re-engine program has been "problemantic" so far, but the Air Force wants to end production of the C-17 with no new replacement in sight, especially since the A400M is still in limbo, look for the congress to kick in on this one also.
 
Venus6971
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:23 pm



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 26):


Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 25):
Sikorski better start making plans for the VH-53K if they want in on the game since the S-92 is not getting a look. That would be interesting see a CH-53 landing on the south lawn.

I get the sentiment, but I hope that combat aircraft receive priority over Presidential helicopters.

I agree but the VH-71 had too many add ons from the original specs, it is meant to get the POTUS from point A to B for short distances but everyone who had a say what was to be added wanted a flying airborne command post with more capability than the E-4B and the VC-25A. I guess the SOD Gates has further cemented his no confidence of USAF procurement by 86ing the CSARX by looking at a whole DOD look at it.I thought the V-22 would be the answer for that but things are not working out .
 
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Revelation
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:59 pm



Quoting Par13del (Reply 30):
How about high speed rail, surely American cpmpanies can design cars rather than purchase from Canada or elsewhere, laying new tracks, building better school buses for the kids, include public transportation buses also, better trucks for the the inter-state cargo haulers, sure other's can think of more places where these jobs could be if a F-22 is not being built. Remember we are talking about jobs in terms of numbers, not the individual one's on the line of the individual programs.

Or as DocLightning said on another thread, how about working on alternate energy sources, since it's our enemies that control our current energy sources? Kinda kills two birds with one stone, no?
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 5:59 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 29):
Equally China/N Korea or whoever can not create that new threat in a matter of weeks either.

Don't think for a second that they arent't trying.

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 29):
If any other nation was close to parity, I could understand your nerves.

They are closer than we think. The US has advanced little since the early 90s after building up a decent gap in the 80s. There are enough "The SU-27 is Awesome" threads here to attest to that. Plus, we aren't going for parity. Domination is the name of the game.
 
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Stitch
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:23 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 29):
If any other nation was close to parity, I could understand your nerves.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
They are closer than we think.

The USAF sold the F-22 on the basis it would be the only "Generation Five" air superiority fighter in service for the next two decades and that no "Generation Four Point Five" fighter like the latest Russian, Chinese and European birds could match it, much less exceed it.
 
red329
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:50 pm

It's been touched on a bit before but...

Honestly, if the F-22 isn't the right fighter for the foreseeable future, how is the F-35 a worthy of replacement of the A-10? The economy is just a simple way to get the majority of voting Americans, the same majority that voted in the current administration, behind this decision. I would bet that most Americans think our air power is just dandy.
 
Flighty
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:43 pm



Quoting Venus6971 (Reply 31):
I thought the V-22 would be the answer for that but things are not working out .

Christ. Can anybody see a pattern here? Our government procurement system is broken. A system that is too expensive (V-22) is a weak system that will lose on the battlefield, because it won't exist in enough numbers. Plus it is complex and finicky.

Same with the VH-71. It is a complete failure to protect the President. It gets an F-minus. The objective of the program has failed because of procurement. Some may argue the V-22 has only harmed the branch where it operates. Certainly, compared to alternative programs, the V-22 harmed the military. This suggests we lack the capability to win. If we can't even shop properly for weapons, we lose. Pretty pathetic but it is a real threat to victory.
 
Oroka
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:00 am

I suspect Gates is asking for deeper cuts than he expects to get.

VH-71 was a joke, it should be cut, and it will. The VH-71 and CSAR-X need to be rolled into one program, one platform, one gets SAR gear, one gets presidential gear. You get a common fleet and shared development costs.

The YAL-1A is a good technology, but perhapses a bit too ambitious. Don't get me wrong, I think it is a great program, with much potential, and development should continue. It really should have been a X-plane.

KC-X... just buy the damn KC-767 or whatever Boeing offers. Let EADS beat their head against the courts for 20 years, they will lose. Times are tough... invest at home.

The F-22 needs one more batch. Period. 186 is not enough, even with a bazillion F-35s on order. Get one more batch of F-22s, keep the F-35 order as is, cut the 250 oldest aircraft, upgrade the F-15Es to the Silent Eagle standard... they are upgrading the F-15Es anyways, why not get a better aircraft for a few more bucks?


My guess, VH-71 is gone, CSAR-X is on hold, YAL-1A goes to the back burner, KC-X gets a Boeing order in 2010, F-22 gets a small second batch and opens for international orders, F-35 stays unchanged, F-15Es get minor upgrades.
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:50 pm



Quoting Stitch (Reply 34):

That is absolutely true, which is why we need the Raptor.

Quoting Red329 (Reply 35):
F-35 a worthy of replacement of the A-10?

It isn't. The A-10 is an excellent aircraft for what it does. But A-10s are pretty cheap, and I see no reason why the ones in the desert could not be upgraded or restart production.
 
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:32 pm



Quoting Flighty (Reply 36):
Christ. Can anybody see a pattern here? Our government procurement system is broken. A system that is too expensive (V-22) is a weak system that will lose on the battlefield, because it won't exist in enough numbers. Plus it is complex and finicky.

Same with the VH-71. It is a complete failure to protect the President. It gets an F-minus. The objective of the program has failed because of procurement. Some may argue the V-22 has only harmed the branch where it operates. Certainly, compared to alternative programs, the V-22 harmed the military. This suggests we lack the capability to win. If we can't even shop properly for weapons, we lose. Pretty pathetic but it is a real threat to victory.

It is a vicious circle.

Procurement has lots of hoops to jump through. It's expensive in terms of time and money. So everyone tries to get their entire wish list into the project, because they're not sure if there will be a next one. But then this makes the project more expensive in terms of time and money, so in the end, you can't afford to buy as many copies as you'd like.

Someone in the project teams has to learn when to say NO, that particular bell or whistle should not go on the platform.

It's clear some of these projects (in particular VH-71) suffer deeply from this problem, and SecDef Gates doesn't have much of a choice but to can it and start all over again with new, firmer ground rules about what we can and cannot afford.
 
gsosbee
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 8:18 pm



Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 19):
Whilst new threats can develop in the next 20 years, you have 20 years to develop the ability to meet them.

Unfortunately it takes 20 years to solve a current requirement.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 37):
Let EADS beat their head against the courts for 20 years, they will lose.

On what basis are you making this statement? The legal system cannot take jobs or politics into consideration. If EADS presents an airplane that meets the specifications, they have as much right as Boeing to the contract. In fact if Boeing throws up the 767 again, they and the DoD will be walking a real fine line.
 
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Stitch
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:07 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 40):
In fact if Boeing throws up the 767 again, they and the DoD will be walking a real fine line.

Evidently after the latest round of pencil-sharpening, the KC-30A is now running $30 million per shipset more then the KC-767ADV so the Alabama senators are trying to make sure that this price discrepancy doesn't hand the order to Boeing. They are also threatening to block the confirmation process of Ashton Carter to become the Pentagon's next acquisition chief to try and force Gate's hand in favor of the KC-30A, though since the Senate does not reconvene until the 20th.
 
Lumberton
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Wed Apr 08, 2009 11:10 pm

I'm duplicating my post from the "VH-1 / CSAR-X thread, since its relevant to the F-22 discussion as well.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 29):
I wouldn't get too taken with Gates' recommendations at this point. This is just the beginning of along, rigorous, and likely acrimonious (venomous?) process. First, each of these weapons systems have backers in the Congress who will wheel & deal to keep the cash flowing. Second, Gates admitted he didn't take the industrial base into account when making these recommendations; that will enter into the debate surely as the sun rises in the east.

The key word at this point is "recommendations". Gates admitted he informed the White House but the Administration hasn't "approved" these in any formal sense.

Bottom line is that they can still throw Dr. Gates under the bus if this gets too contentious.

Saxby Chambliss is already sharpening his knives. He's just the first.
 
Oroka
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 2:47 am



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 40):
On what basis are you making this statement? The legal system cannot take jobs or politics into consideration.

No, but if the Airforce decides that they just want a home grown solution, that is their choice. The KC-767Adv is not a bad aircraft, it will do the job just fine, AND keep a line going at Boeing for a few years. EADS wants to take that to court, go for it. I could see a case if the KC-767Adv was totally outmatched in every way, but it isn't, and in these tough economic times, it is looking pretty cheap too. So, home grown, line at Boeing, and save money. Sufficient reasons to chose Boeing.
 
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 3:17 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 43):
So, home grown, line at Boeing, and save money. Sufficient reasons to chose Boeing.

I really think 10-20 years from now when all other 767s have been retired we'll be kicking ourselves in the ass for buying an end of life product. I say re-engine the rest of the KC-135s to get another decade or two out of them, and then choose amongst 787 or A350. Re-engining throws bucks at Boeing (new pylons, integration work) and GE (CFM-56s), and also avoids bad blood with the Europeans.
 
gsosbee
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 4:10 pm



Quoting Oroka (Reply 43):
No, but if the Airforce decides that they just want a home grown solution, that is their choice. The KC-767Adv is not a bad aircraft, it will do the job just fine, AND keep a line going at Boeing for a few years. EADS wants to take that to court, go for it. I could see a case if the KC-767Adv was totally outmatched in every way, but it isn't, and in these tough economic times, it is looking pretty cheap too. So, home grown, line at Boeing, and save money. Sufficient reasons to chose Boeing.

It is not the Air Force's decision on home grown or not. The politicians make those decisions.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
I really think 10-20 years from now when all other 767s have been retired we'll be kicking ourselves in the ass for buying an end of life product. I say re-engine the rest of the KC-135s to get another decade or two out of them, and then choose amongst 787 or A350. Re-engining throws bucks at Boeing (new pylons, integration work) and GE (CFM-56s), and also avoids bad blood with the Europeans.

The 767 should not even be in the discussion. Boeing has better airplanes to chose from. The system is broke. While what Revelation says is a solution, all it does is pushes back the decision.

Without a split buy or a fly off, there will be no buy as the loser will tie the decision up in court long after the politicians have had their say.
 
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Revelation
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:20 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 45):
The 767 should not even be in the discussion. Boeing has better airplanes to chose from. The system is broke. While what Revelation says is a solution, all it does is pushes back the decision.

Indeed, but by that time we may find we have a smaller air force with more fuel-efficient UAVs so we don't need as many tankers.

Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 45):
Without a split buy or a fly off, there will be no buy as the loser will tie the decision up in court long after the politicians have had their say.

If you put off the tanker buy for another 10 years or so, you also get rid of the legal headaches too.
 
Lumberton
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 6:36 pm

The F-22 has another ally.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...crossfire-calls-halt-f-production/

Quote:
Sen. Chris Dodd could be caught in the crossfire over the Pentagon's budget proposal, which puts thousands of jobs in his state at risk at a time when his long-held Senate seat is also vulnerable.

The Connecticut Democrat, along with other members of his state's congressional delegation, is meeting Thursday with the Hartford chapter of the machinists' union that would take a big hit under Defense Secretary Robert Gates' call to halt production of the F-22 jet.

"We're very concerned the job base for aerospace would take a blow on this," said Frank Larkin, spokesman for the International Association of Machinists.

He said ending F-22 production would threaten up to 3,000 jobs in Connecticut, and 25,000 nationwide, with many of those job losses affecting his union members. Though the jets are mainly produced in Texas and Georgia, the engines are produced at Pratt & Whitney in Middletown, Conn.

This puts Dodd, a powerful Democrat on Capitol Hill, in a tight spot. Though he is a President Obama ally in a position to be a key cheerleader for his budget proposals, Dodd's poll numbers are at historic lows with an election coming up next year.

Technical merits aren't the issue here.
 
BMI727
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RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:16 pm



Quoting Gsosbee (Reply 45):
The 767 should not even be in the discussion. Boeing has better airplanes to chose from. The system is broke. While what Revelation says is a solution, all it does is pushes back the decision.

Not for the USAF's purposes. The only alternatives would be the 777 or 737. The 737 might actually work, but the 777 is too large and more suitable as a KC-10 replacement. The 767 can do the job well.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 44):
I really think 10-20 years from now when all other 767s have been retired we'll be kicking ourselves in the ass for buying an end of life product.

This is silly. We aren't kicking ourselves in the ass for having 707s long after everyone else has retired them.

New build 767s can do the job as well as any plane out there. Perhaps the KC-787 might be better, but is it worthwhile to wait for it and pay more for it when it will likely only be marginally better than the 767?

Quoting Revelation (Reply 46):
Indeed, but by that time we may find we have a smaller air force with more fuel-efficient UAVs so we don't need as many tankers.

The days when UAVs make up the bulk of the Air Force are probably at least 20 years off. UAV technology has grown by leaps and bounds in the past few decades, but there is still a ton of things they are unable to do. This may be an issue for the next big tanker buy, but probably not this one.

Quoting Lumberton (Reply 47):
Technical merits aren't the issue here.

Can't imagine why people think politicians are stupid. Comments like Sen. Dodds are how projects get a reputation for being pork projects no matter how good they are in reality.
 
gsosbee
Posts: 365
Joined: Sun Jan 23, 2005 8:40 am

RE: F22 Production To End - Sec. Gates

Thu Apr 09, 2009 7:26 pm



Quoting Lumberton (Reply 47):
Technical merits aren't the issue here.

If it involves anyone living or working in DC, technical merits are never the issue.  banghead 

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