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Aleksandar
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:19 am

Bad news and a sad day for Poland. May the victims rest in peace
R-E-S-P-E-C-T
 
beakerltn
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:20 am

BBC news now updated with video of crash site.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8612825.stm
300/319/320/321/330/732/733/734/73G/738/744/772/77W/146/EMB135/EMB145
 
gothamspotter
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:21 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 43):
If the registration is 101 (can't really see on this photo) then - yes, that's the one.

They also used 102 for the president.

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
No luck finding a metar for Smolensk - the airport doesn't even seem to have an ICAO designator. I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.

Smolensk has both an airport and an air base. The airport (LNX) runway seems to be too short for a Tu-154 (5500ft) so I'm guessing they were headed to the base (XUBS), whose runway is 8400ft.
 
FlySSC
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:22 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
Does anyone know, if the aircraft was 101 or 102?

It seems to be 101

http://s.tf1.fr/mmdia/i/19/7/l-avion-du-president-polonais-qui-s-est-ecrase-en-russie-le-10-avril-4396197smbdw_1713.jpg?v=1
 
acabgd
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:22 am

Quoting OV735 (Reply 46):
No luck finding a metar for Smolensk - the airport doesn't even seem to have an ICAO designator. I figure an ILS is also bit too much to be expected.

The plane was landing at Smolensk-North, ICAO designator XUBS.

Smolensk-South (IATA: LNX) is a very small airport with a short runway (1600m / 5249ft).
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Aleksandar
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:27 am

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

My guess is that the pilot has a final word. At least, he's the one with all responsibilities
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Gdabski
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:33 am

Quoting GothamSpotter (Reply 52):

They also used 102 for the president.

102 is undergoing maintainence/overhaul in Moscow.
 
slz396
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:33 am

Very sad and easily avoidable accident...

Is it the first time a head of state is killed in a plane crash?

Does Poland have a Vice-President, or who's going to succeed?
 
Viper911
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Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:38 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 57):
Does Poland have a Vice-President, or who's going to succeed?

According to Wikipedia its Bronisław Komorowski, in don't know if its official or not, plus i don't dent to trust Wikipedia so much..
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:46 am

Bronislaw Komorowski is the speaker of the Parlament house, who becomes acting president in case of elected president's death.

Also, apparently all Polish military Chiefs of Staff have perished.

[Edited 2010-04-10 02:47:26]
Proudly avoiding 737 MAX since 18.11.2020.
 
FlySSC
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:46 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 57):
Is it the first time a head of state is killed in a plane crash?

No.

In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

in 2004, President Boris Trajkovski of Macedonia died in a plane crash in Bosnia.

In 2008, Samora Machel, the Mozambican president died in crash of a Tupolev TU 134A-3, on its way home following the Lusaka Summit in Zambia.
 
slz396
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:48 am

Quoting Viper911 (Reply 58):
According to Wikipedia its Bronisław Komorowski, in don't know if its official or not

He's just acting President, since he's the Speaker of the House.

Apparently, there's no VP in Poland.
 
slz396
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 9:51 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

How could I have forgotten about that one!

In a former Belgian colony... leading to the mass killing of over a million people and a huge scandal in my country over us just standing by and watching at it!

  
 
tonymctigue
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:01 am

May they all Rest in Piece.
Airports: SNN GWY NOC DUB ORK BOS EWR JFK ORD MCI BOI SEA LHR STN CDG LYS FAO GVA HKG MEL ADL HBA
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:01 am

List of those on board.

http://www.polskieradio.pl/wiadomosci/kraj/artykul153440.html

(all in Polish)

R.I.P.

 
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FlySSC
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:06 am

Several sources are stil mentioning 132 dead...

The InterFax agency is reporting that the Russian authorities proposed to the crew to divert to Minsk or Moscow because of the fog but the pilot decided to try to land in Smolensk.
InteFax is also saying the plane crashed during its 4th attempt to land ...
Yet to be confirmed ...
 
Tobias2702
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:16 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 65):
Several sources are stil mentioning 132 dead...

If my counting is correct, there are 98 names on the pax manifest.
PA, AF, UK, BA, AB, DL, LH, FR, BD, A3, EZY, DY //// A319/320/346, B733/735/73G/738/744/763, AT4, 146, CR2, DH4
 
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SOBHI51
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:16 am

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
No.

Will also add:
President Abdul Salam Arif of Iraq died in a helicopter crash in 1966.
I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
 
CPH-R
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:27 am

Quoting slz396 (Reply 61):
Apparently, there's no VP in Poland.

As I understand it, the role of the Polish President is largely ceremonial. The position is 'merely' that of head of state, whereas the real day to day power lies with the Prime Minister.
 
milan320
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:40 am

Quoting acabgd (Reply 42):

Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old. Not sure.
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acabgd
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:54 am

Quoting milan320 (Reply 72):
Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old.

Sorry, you said "I guess the plane is 40 years old" and I just asked "Why guess"?

The type might be as old as you want it to be, it's the maintenance that counts. Plenty of DC-9s with over 40 years of age flying around the US daily and not a single problem.

AC "type being 40 years old" then also includes B737, B747 and many others still flying fine today. This Polish presidential aircraft was delivered at about the same time as the current US Air Force One(s), therefore it's got nothing to do with its age.

There was no distress call reported and it seems the pilot tried to land several times, although advised to use alternates such as Minsk or Moscow. I don't want to speculate further, but it seems the plane was not at fault here at all.
CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
 
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BlueSky1976
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:55 am

Quoting milan320 (Reply 72):
Don't shoot the messenger, just rehashing what I read in the newspaper. Maybe the meant AC type is 40 years old.

Both Tu-154Ms have been delivered in late 1980s (1989 IIRC), so they were not really that old. I'd say they were on par with most of government VIP aircraft in the majority of the other countries.
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ltbewr
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:35 am

One news report I heard here in the USA suggested that the a/c was considering to divert to another one due to the fog conditions. That diversion would have caused greater difficulty for the passangers who were to appear at a ceremony as to a site of a great human rights mass murder at Kaytan in 1940, including many Polish citizens.
Unless the failure was due to a mechanical failure (as occured with 2 flights of LOT in the 1980's), we have to reason that the heavy fog conditions were a major contribution to this crash. To all killed, RIP.
 
jayeshrulz
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:42 am

May the President and pilots,and all of the occupants Rest in Peace.
Keep flying, because the sky is no limit!
 
Morvious
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:43 am

People died and all we care is why this post has been mooved.

R.I.P. to all who died and my condolences to families and friends.
have a good day,

HereThen
 
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Aesma
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 11:51 am

Probably no ILS. Can a TU-154M sport a HUD ?

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 35):
"popes" ......As far as I know, there is only one Pope

One Catholic Pope, sure, but there are others. Although here he probably meant priests.

Quoting acabgd (Reply 42):
I don't know why you "guess" it was 40 years old?

It was produced in 1990, delivered July 1990.

Yeah, the TU-154 EIS is not even 40 years ago, and the TU-154M EIS is 1982.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

In a functional chain of command, the captain has the final word. If the president is not a pilot, he should not even be consulted. But there sure is pressure. The plane was also loaded with officers, that can't help.

Not wanting to jump to conclusion, but if it was indeed the 4th try, that doesn't sound good, you shouldn't try that much, too much stress involved.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
acabgd
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:03 pm

Quoting Ltbewr (Reply 72):
Unless the failure was due to a mechanical failure (as occured with 2 flights of LOT in the 1980's)

Heh... If a plane crashes in the US would you go and say "Just as happpened in 1990s and 1980s and 1970s and....?? The two LOT crashes were back in different times, with different planes and have really absolutely nothing to do with this crash apart from the planes coming from the same country.

Furthermore, there is up to now absolutely no hint of any mechanical failure, so why point to the 2 LOT crashes some 30 years ago?
CSud,D9,MD8x,D10,Trid,BAC1,A30,31,319,320,321,33,346,B71,72,73,74,75,76,77,L10,S20,A42,A72,T13,T15,F50,F70,F100,B146
 
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Aesma
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:12 pm

One black box recovered, according to Agence France Presse.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:13 pm

Condolences to all Polish peopel and our aviation friends. What a horrible disaster.
Phil Derner Jr.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:16 pm

AFP also reports more victims, unfortunately : 96 total, including 88 members of the delegation, and I guess 8 crew.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Revelation
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:21 pm

I'm so sorry to hear about this.

Poland is a great partner of the EU and in NATO.

And is working hard to improve relations with Russia.

One article mentions how Poland's GDP is growing even in these tough times so they should feel proud.

It makes the loss of so much of their leadership even more difficult to bear.

Rest in peace, and know that better days lie ahead!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
tom355uk
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:27 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 76):
Probably no ILS. Can a TU-154M sport a HUD ?

I dont think so, but even a HUD is pretty useless without any form of vertical guidance. The best weather report I have seen states a visibility of around 0.5km. Even if your MDA was 350ft AAL you would be over 2km from the TDZ at that point, thats well into CATII ops. What type of Non-precision approach is there at Smolensk airbase? I would have guessed NDB, but I really don't know - can't locate any sources.

Edited for spelling.

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:28:52]

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:29:35]
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aerdingus
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:27 pm

This is just terrible. Condolences to the Polish community. Hope they find out the cause soon.

Just watching the Euronews coverage of the crash, and am kind of disappointed that they are going down the "this plane was delivered in 1990" and even "Russian airline SU retired it's TU 154 fleet due to safety concerns". Eh was it not because they were gas guzzlers. 1990 isn't that long ago, the Irish government uses a Gulfstream from 1991.

[Edited 2010-04-10 05:40:44]
A306 A313 A319 A320 A321 A333 A346 A359 ATR42 ATR72 B734 B737 B738 B744 B772 B789 C152 MD80 RJ85 S340
 
osteogenesis
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:28 pm

Bild Online is reporting that the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk refused to fly the Tupolev planes of the Polish Air Force.

After this happened maybe some people understand the decision of the German government to buy new planes for official trips.
 
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Navigator
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:33 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 75):
Not wanting to jump to conclusion, but if it was indeed the 4th try, that doesn't sound good, you shouldn't try that much, too much stress involved.

I agree with you. Many civil airlines only allow pilots a specific number of tries before going to alternate airport. Without jumping to conclusions it seems strange that such a flight with government officials is not conducted with more modern equipment. Also an ordinary ILS would be no problem if within minima for a qualified airline crew.
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osteogenesis
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:39 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 84):
I agree with you. Many civil airlines only allow pilots a specific number of tries before going to alternate airport. Without jumping to conclusions it seems strange that such a flight with government officials is not conducted with more modern equipment. Also an ordinary ILS would be no problem if within minima for a qualified airline crew.

Some news agencies are speculating that the pilot was instructed to try it so that they did not miss the very important commemoration event.
 
aaexp
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:44 pm

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 83):
After this happened maybe some people understand the decision of the German government to buy new planes for official trips.

Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?
 
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Aesma
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:45 pm

Video of the crash site : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QMwhZtlQ2hY

You can stop at 43", after that it rewinds. The woman seems to be reading names of victims. I didn't see anything shocking.

A Russian illustration :



from http://www.gazeta.ru/social/2010/04/10/3349949.shtml

It seems the plane hit the last trees before an opening in the forest for the runway (can also be guessed in the video) :

http://hfr-rehost.net/http://nsa14.casimages.com/img/2010/04/10/100410021000520030.jpg

Courtesy of Spit XIX from crash-aerien.aero
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
OV735
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:49 pm

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 83):
Bild Online is reporting that the Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk refused to fly the Tupolev planes of the Polish Air Force.

When Donald Tusk visited Tallinn, he flew on a Yak-40. I don't see why he would refuse to fly on a much more modern Tupolev, if he was fine with the Yak. Probably just a tabloid-style claim.

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 86):
Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?

The government of the DDR did, and the Tu-154 was taken over and used by the Luftwaffe after the reunion, until late 1990's, when it collided with an USAF C141 somewhere over Southern Africa.
 
miszaqq
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:50 pm

Quoting Aleksandar (Reply 55):
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 47):
Question.
If you are flying the president of a country, who does have the final word, the captain or the president, to divert or not?

My guess is that the pilot has a final word. At least, he's the one with all responsibilities

Just to clarify some things, on the official passanger list there were 89 names (but one person never get on board the aircraft, so there were 88 people) plus 7 crew members, so some media may probably add 89 passangers and 7 crew members.

Remember that there were President and Polish Air Force Commander (Lt. Gen. Andrzej BLASIK) onboard, and apparently they were going late, as that crash happened at 8:56 and the ceremony they were heading to was due to start at 9:30. It was also their 4th approach to land at Smolensk airport, and my guess is that the pilot may have been simply ordered to land here and now, or beeing under so much pressure with all those onboard that he decided to try again and again.

There are also a story from august 2008 when the polish, ukrainian, lithuanian, latvian and estonian presidenst were onboard of polish TU154 (don't if the same that crashed today), and due to security pilot refused to land in Georgia capital Tibilisi, and diverted the plane to Azerbaijan. That time he refused to follow the order given to him by deputy of Polish Air Force Commander, but later he (the pilot - Grzegorz Pietruczuk) was granted with medal from polish ministry of defence.

So maybe this time they ordered the pilot to land despite bad weather conditions at smolensk airport.

On board of todays filght that crashed in smolensk were:

Gen. Bronislaw Kwiatkowski (Commander Operations)
Gen. Andrew Blasik (Air Force Commander in Chief)
Gen. Tadeusz Buk (Commander of Land Forces)
Gen. Wojciech Potasinski (Commander of Special Forces)
Vice Admiral Andrzej Karweta (Commander in Chief of the Polish Navy)
Gen. Casimir Gilarski (Commander, Training)

plus

* Lech Kaczynski, the President of Poland
* Maria Kaczynska, the first lady
* Ryszard Kaczorowski, the last President of the Polish government-in-exile
* Jerzy Szmajdzinski, Deputy speaker of Sejm (Polish Parliament)
* Wladyslaw Stasiak, Minister of Internal Affairs and Administration
* Aleksander Szczyglo, head of the National Security Bureau
* Pawel Wypych, Secretary of State in the Office of the President of the Republic of Poland
* Mariusz Handzlik, Undersectretary of State for International Affairs
* Andrzej Kremer, Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs
* General Franciszek Gagor, Chief of the Polish Army General Staff
* Andrzej Przewoznik, Secretary-General of Rada Ochrony Pamie;ci Walk i Me;czen'stwa
* Grzegorz Dolniak, member of the Sejm
* Przemyslaw Gosiewski, Deputy Prime Minister of Poland
* Zbigniew Wassermann, member of the Sejm
* Janusz Kochanowski, Polish Ombudsman
* Slawomir Skrzypek, President of the National Bank of Poland
* Janusz Kurtyka, Historian and president of the Institute of National Remembrance
* Bishop Tadeusz Ploski
 
Tobias2702
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 12:51 pm

Quoting AAEXP (Reply 86):
Does the German government use Tupolev aircraft?

No, they are using Challengers and 2 A310'a (which formerly belonged to the GDR leadership), but these will be replaced by new A319's and 2 ex-LH A340-300. Especially the Challenger jets have quite a long tech record, including some emergency landings with high-ranking politicans on board, so it's definitely worth modernizing the fleet.
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ukair
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:00 pm

If conditions were below minimums why did it try to land? I'm afraid this is looking like pilot error.
 
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Navigator
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:00 pm

Quoting miszaqq (Reply 89):
Remember that there were President and Polish Air Force Commander (Lt. Gen. Andrzej BLASIK) onboard, and apparently they were going late, as that crash happened at 8:56 and the ceremony they were heading to was due to start at 9:30. It was also their 4th approach to land at Smolensk airport, and my guess is that the pilot may have been simply ordered to land here and now, or beeing under so much pressure with all those onboard that he decided to try again and again.

That is probably a fair guess, but in normal civil circumstances the Pilot in Command, (Flight Captain), is according to aviation rules and laws the only one allowed to make decisions concerning safety of the flight. This is the case no matter who is onboard, the Chief of Flight Operations or anybody else. The pilot in the flight plan stated as PIC = Pilot In Command is always in charge no matter what. The decisions of the PIC can never be overruled by anyone else onboard or on ground no matter what.

But this was a military flight...
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osteogenesis
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:02 pm

Quoting Navigator (Reply 92):
That is probably a fair guess, but in normal civil circumstances the Pilot in Command, (Flight Captain), is according to aviation rules and laws the only one allowed to make decisions concerning safety of the flight. This is the case no matter who is onboard, the Chief of Flight Operations or anybody else. The pilot in the flight plan stated as PIC = Pilot In Command is always in charge no matter what. The decisions of the PIC can never be overruled by anyone else onboard or on ground no matter what.

I am not sure if this is always the case. What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:06 pm

I heard the news this morning.

A very sad day for the Polish people, many of which I see and tend to everyday. My heart goes out to my polish friends and patients.

May the lost rest in peace and the living be consoled.


-mirrodie

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:08:35]
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
JL418
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:06 pm

My sympathy goes to Poland and all his people, in such a tragic - and cynic, if you think about it - moment. What lead half the government of Poland on the same airplane is beyond me anyway. May everybody rest in peace.
 
Tobias2702
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:07 pm

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere.

IIRC, the US President is also the head of the Armed Forces. Now idea how this is in case of the Polish Army. But obviously there were some high ranking generals on board.
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hugoandres1984
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:08 pm

does anybody have the approach plate of that airport Posible CFIT

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:16:50]
 
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:17 pm

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 93):
I am not sure if this is always the case. What happens if Obama tells AF1 pilot to land somewhere. Can he refuse to do this? I am not sure if this law applies always and in all countries.

Of course the pilot of AF 1 has the authority to rule out any order coming from Obama if it concerns safety. Anything else would be stupidity. The pilot has more knowledge about flying a plane and the safety of the plane than the President. However if it is within safetymargins, of course the pilot will do as the President says.

And as you can understand, Obama being an educated and smart president he will of course always follow safety advices from his pilots....

I think you get the going here...

[Edited 2010-04-10 06:22:34]
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bjorn14
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RE: Polish AF Tu-154 Crash In Smolensk

Sat Apr 10, 2010 1:43 pm

Quoting FlySSC (Reply 60):
In 1994 the President Juvenal Habvarimana of Rwanda and President Cyprian Ntayamira of Burundi were on board the same aircraft that crashed near Kigali Airport.

Not sure you can count this one as a "plane crash" It was shot down by some kind of land to air device as they were taking off. This what ignited the Rwandan genocide spree.

May G-d comfort everyone in their time of loss.
"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
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