This is not good news for the USAF or the 3rd Wing. It is now well past anytime the F-22 could still be airborne, as its fuel would have been used up last night.

Let's hope the pilot got out and survived the night, and is found soon. The weather in Alaska is getting very cold this time of year.

Doesn't the aircraft have an ELT onboard?

Not good news for Elmendorf in particular...especially after 00-0173 was lost in July on a training mission

wreckage found near Denali, no word on the pilot yet (Radio news, no link yet)

link:
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/11/17...-force-fighter-jet-missing-alaska/

Hopefully the pilot survives the night. It would be a sad lose to loose a pilot on a training mission.

A litle update.

USAF spots “apparent” F-22 wreckage, pilot still missing

Quote: Aircraft wreckage spotted by a US Air Force search team is believed to be a Lockheed Martin F-22 that disappeared at 7:40pm on 16 November, the USAF says. The search for the USAF F-22 pilot is continuing nearly 18 hours after air traffic control at the Elemendorf-Richardson joint base in Alaska lost radar contact with the F-22.

Link: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-wreckage-pilot-still-missing.html

I remember hearing about the F-22 crash near Edwards AFB in '09, but had no idea that it went down like this...

"It is possible such a system could have spared the most recent F-22 crash, when Lockheed test pilot David Cooley briefly lost situational awareness during a 9g manoeuvre. As he regained awareness, the F-22 was already diving through 14,000ft at M1.6. Cooley ejected a moment before the F-22 crashed, but the aerodynamic forces at M1.4 killed him." (This statement is in regards to the 2009 F-22 crash, not the Alaska when of this week).

Link: http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...-wreckage-pilot-still-missing.html


This is the thread on the former F-22 crash:

F-22 Crashes Near Edwards AFB--Developing (by JA54123 Mar 25 2009 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

[Edited 2010-11-18 10:33:11]

It has been two and a half days now since this F-22 crashed, and the pilot is has still not been found, or heard from on his survival radio. I am begging to fear he did not survive the ejection sequence, or perhaps the parachut fall/deployement. Or he received extensive injuries from the landing or ejection. Grizzly bears in the area would be trying to fatening up for their winter hibernation.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9): I am begging to fear he did not survive the ejection sequence, or perhaps the parachut fall/deployement.

The thing which I've been following about this crash is that the USAF still has not gotten a good enough look at the wreckage to tell if the pilot is in the plane or if the ejection seat is still in the plane or was deployed.

That speaks of a high speed, high angle crash.

Yes, I've seen a couple crashes like that. An A-4 which went down at Crow Valley back in 74. They lined 40 of us up, gave us small black trash bags and surgical gloves and we walked across the debris field 'looking for the pilot'. We did find enough to know he had been in the plane when it hit.

I've also seen an F-4 impact site where they only found enough to tell the two guys were onboard after digging 30 feet into the Texas mud.

From the way the releases read from the PAO out of Elmendorf - the wreckage is very difficult to approach, and it appears to me they think the pilot went in with the plane. But they are still doing an area search just in case he got out.

EDIT - the visual search is limited - local sunrise at PAED is 9:15 am and sunset at 4:15 - barely 7 hours of daylight. The initial announcement of finding the crash site Wednesday mentioned that the helicopters were unable to land and look at the crash site.

On Thursday they did got on the ground near the crash site, but had only a little time at the site. Just enough to be 'reasonable sure' it is the F-22. They got a temporary ground HQ setup in the area.

[quote]"It's hard to put what we're doing into words," Colonel Jackson said. "What we're doing is like building al small city of support to supply the site. We're setting up an airport and hotel in the middle of nowhere essentially."[/q]

http://www.jber.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123231693

As of 1345 Dallas time Friday - the sun has been up in Anchorage for just about 1 1/2 hours.

[Edited 2010-11-19 11:47:20]

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9): It has been two and a half days now since this F-22 crashed, and the pilot is has still not been found, or heard from on his survival radio. I am begging to fear he did not survive the ejection sequence, or perhaps the parachut fall/deployement. Or he received extensive injuries from the landing or ejection

The longer it takes the less the chance of survival.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 9): Grizzly bears in the area would be trying to fatening up for their winter hibernation.

The bears must be hungry enough to eat airplane food.

Does anyone have any idea what the hell is preventing the USAF and/or ANG from sending a Chinook to the site and having 25 or so SAR guys rappel down and scour the area on foot?

There are at least 150 people at the base camp near the crash site.

They have people out on the ground, and are flying helicopters in search patterns as much as possible based on weather.

I suspect the terrain is very rough so that a foot search is extremely difficult. There also is probably 6 or more feet of soft snow on the ground in any open areas.

From my experience, the main thing they are trying to do is to make the aircraft debris safe so they can take it apart enough to tell if the pilot or ejection seat is still in the aircraft.

Remember the photos from the ValueJet crash years ago? This crash site may look like that. It can be very hard to determine if the pilot is still in such mangled wreckage.

They only have about five hours per day of good enough daylight to be able to do a decent search. The current weather at sea level near Anchorage is 20.1F - that is the high temp today - it will be near 0F tonight. Visibility is 10 miles, but there is a cloud cover at 7,000 feet.

Does anyone know if the aircraft went down in the Fox 1 MOA which is mountainous and north and slightly east of Anchorage, or the Susitna MOA which is north and slightly west of Anchorage and closer to Mount McKinnley?

Much of the Susitna MOA is low elevation trackless wilderness covered with thick woods and swampy ground, but about 1/3 of the MOA is steep mountains and glaciers rising to over 15,000 feet.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 14): Does anyone know if the aircraft went down in the Fox 1 MOA which is mountainous and north and slightly east of Anchorage, or the Susitna MOA which is north and slightly west of Anchorage and closer to Mount McKinnley?

http://tfr.faa.gov/save_pages/detail_0_7931.html

Found the answer to my own question on the Anchorage Daily News website:

Quote: The general airspace the planes were flying is called the Fox 3 Military Operations Area, a square patch of more than 3 million acres between Anchorage and Fairbanks, according to the Air Force. Maps show that the area is bisected by the Denali Highway.

The Fox 3 MOA is elevations from near 2,500-2,600 feet in some of the river valleys to 6,300 feet in steep mountains.

Also the aircraft which went down was one of a two ship training flight. The planes were separated when the aircraft went down/ disappeared from radar. The other aircraft tanked and searched for a couple hours until C-130 and rescue helicopters arrived over the suspect crash area.

More on the search efforts

http://www.adn.com/2010/11/18/156142...earchers-scour-wilderness-for.html

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 12): 25 or so SAR guys rappel down and scour the area on foot?

As noted in the article link above - the SAR guys have already spend several hours on the ground at the crash site looking for the pilot. They still are not able to tell if the pilot ejected, or did not eject.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 17): As noted in the article link above - the SAR guys have already spend several hours on the ground at the crash site looking for the pilot. They still are not able to tell if the pilot ejected, or did not eject.

Thanks. I re-read the article, and somehow missed that.

Updated story from the Anchorage Daily News - @ 1357 Friday Anchorage time - approx 2300 UTC

Quote: Pararescuemen with the Alaska Air National Guard found no conclusive evidence that Haney was in the plane when it crashed, said base spokesman John Pennell. The pararescuemen landed in the area of the crash and were on the ground for several hours Wednesday. The highly skilled rescuers were unable to get close to the wreckage, described as a large crater between two mountains with water running through it, according to a Guard spokesperson. When asked about any indication as to whether Haney ejected, Pennell said the Air Force doesn't know. "That's why we're trying to get in to the site, to find evidence as to whether the seat was ejected or in the aircraft when it crashed," Pennell said.

http://www.adn.com/2010/11/19/156303...odge-to-serve-as-base-camp-in.html

[Edited 2010-11-19 15:47:08]

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 19):

Thanks very much for posting timely updates...and please keep doing so. Jeff and I are old friends...we used to compete and fly together. I've been spending the last few days constantly refreshing news feeds in the hopes of finding good news.

I'm very sorry to hear it is a friend of yours.

In my 20 years in the Navy, I've experienced the waiting too often for news of friends, or as in 2003 watching while my son was at the front of 3rd Infantry. We hope for the best.

I pray that they do find him alive.

[Edited 2010-11-19 19:08:10]

Bad news:

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2010/1...orce-says-pilot-died-in-crash.html

The pilot of an F-22 Raptor fighter jet that went down Tuesday during a training flight over Interior Alaska died in the crash, Col. Jack McMullen, commander of the Air Force's 3rd Wing said this evening.

At a brief press conference on Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, McMullen said evidence at the scene of the crash about 100 miles north of Anchorage and south of the Denali Highway, including pieces of Capt. Jeff Haney's flight suit and other personal effects, led investigators to that conclusion. Part of the aircraft's ejection seat were also found at the scene.

Echoing BEEFSTEW25's sad news:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/11/19/alaska.plane.crash/index.html?hpt=T2

No available information on cause of crash, and one can assume that the USAF will be very diligent in determining the probable cause.

Condolences to widow and children.

RIP, my friend and brother.

Sorry to hear that - RIP

From some of the personal stories I've read in the Anchorage media - he sounded like the kind of person we would all like to know and call a friend.

[Edited 2010-11-20 07:11:44]

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 25): he sounded like the kind of person we would all like to know and call a friend.

He was, indeed. Soft-spoken, yet quick to crack a smile. A tough guy who happened to also be incredibly nice, and always respectful to others. A real class act. The world is a much emptier place without him.

RIP...he's flying up there in heaven now, with the Angels. @2H4, hope you can find peace...and i salute you and all the other brave men and women who are flying to protect us  .

I salute them alongside you...I'm not in the military.

Many thanks for the kind words, though. Much appreciated.

Rest in peace, sir. Thank you

What a shame. R.I.P.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 26):

Jason, my condolences.

I have said that RIP posts for pilots and pax we don't know are pointless, but this is different. Wow.

Peter

Thanks for the kind words.

Jeff left behind two young daughters. If anyone's at all interested, donations to their college fund may be made at www.AirWarriorCourage.org specifying "For the Jeffrey Haney children." Or, donations can be made by check made out to AWCF, and mailed to AWCF, PO Box 877, Silver Spring, MD 20918-0877. The "For" line on the check should designate "For the Jeffrey Haney children."

About 3 months ago, I found out that my fiance' had a F-22A Raptor pilot in the family; the pilot is the son of my fiance's niece, who lives in the Chicago area. As we were going to be in Chicago for Thanksgiving, we were invited to have diner at the niece's home, and meet the son, who is with the 90th Fighter Squadron at Elmendorf AFB, AK. I had been looking forward to meeting this young man for several months. We arrived at 4:00 PM Friday, the day after Thanksgiving.

When I first heard about all of this, I looked up all the Raptor photos on A.net, and contacted one photographer, hoping to get permission to make a large 18 X 24 print of the very A/C this young man had been assigned to. As luck would have it, the photographer, Agustin Anaya, was formerly employed by Lockheed-Martin, and had spent 6 years working on the Raptor, and was very helpful to me. After making several large prints, we sent them to the pilot's mother, so he had seen them prior to our arrival.

One of the first things I said when I met him was......."I understand that production on the Raptor is scheduled to end after unit 189 is completed"; he corrected me, and stated, "it's only after unit 187, but after yesterday, we are only going to have 186 Raptors". He then told me about the crash in Alaska. He also said that the Air Force "had reason to believe" that the plane had impacted from very low altitude, at close to 90 deg angle, and that it was a almost certain that the pilot had not ejected.

I'm guessing now, but I'm sure he knew the pilot's identity when he was telling me about it.
I had quite some time to get acquainted with and talk with this young man, and many things became very obvious to me; first, people who are selected to fly the USAF's newest, most expensive fighter jet ever, are absolutely nothing like what most people think of, when they think of fighter pilots. This young man was quite small in stature, probably no more than 5'-5" or so; very reserved, almost shy, but also very "professional". Looking back, I'm certain he was feeling the same "emotion" inside, that members on this forum are feeling since we now know what happened.

I am deeply saddened by this tragic event, and my condolences go out to the family of the pilot. May he rest in peace.

Regards; Charley

It seems they have figured out what went wrong with that F-22 crash in Alaska, and they have since indefinitely grounded every F-22 as a result (this replaces an altitude restriction of 25,000 ft instituted since January). The reason for the grounding? The oxygen generators are the culprit.

Link

Quote: F-22 Raptor Fleet Grounded Indefinitely So the F-22 Raptor fleet has been grounded by Air Combat Command boss Gen. Robert Fraser due to problems with the aircraft’s oxygen generating system, the same flaw that has kept the jets restricted to flights under 25,000 feet since January. The system has been under investigation since shortly after the late November crash of an F-22 in Alaska. The total grounding was apparently due to numerous reports of pilots suffering from a lack of oxygen while flying the jet since the restriction was put in place.

Point in fact, they are not grounded. Its just a safety of flight stand down. Flights are still permitted as required.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 35): Point in fact, they are not grounded. Its just a safety of flight stand down. Flights are still permitted as required.

Would you elaborate on the difference please? I'm not familiar with what a safety of flight stand down is.

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 36): Would you elaborate on the difference please? I'm not familiar with what a safety of flight stand down is.

A stand down is a voluntary act, if needed, the aircraft is allowed to be used. A grounding is a mandatory order because the aircraft may be unfit for flight.

The F-22 works, but there is a occasional bug that creeps up some times and causes problems with the oxygen generator. If the generator was completely messed, you would have more than 2 crashed F-22s, the F-22 has probably flown around half a million hours by now.


The 2009 F-22 crash was black-out, wasn't it?

Quoting Oroka (Reply 37): The F-22 works, but there is a occasional bug that creeps up some times and causes problems with the oxygen generator. If the generator was completely messed, you would have more than 2 crashed F-22s, the F-22 has probably flown around half a million hours by now.

I doubt that, they probibly have only flown about 100,000 to 150,000 hours, total throughout the fleet. The Raptor has only been operational for about 5.5 years (Dec. 2005).

It seems to me the F-22A can still be flown for pilot proficency, in some events, like T/O and landing, and any other activity that can be flown at about 10,000', or less. The USAF regulations do allow flights up to 10,000' without supplemential oxygen.

Quoting Oroka (Reply 37): The 2009 F-22 crash was black-out, wasn't it?

No, I was told by a test pilot instructor that they set up the test incorrectly. Apparently they were testing an inverted bomb drop at supersonic speeds, but that they conducted the test at too low of an altitude. When the pilot realized there wasn't enough altitude during the test, he tried to abort but it was too late as he was in a 40 degree nose down supersonic altitude and couldn't recover the maneuver.

Quoting Flybaurlax (Reply 39): Apparently they were testing an inverted bomb drop at supersonic speeds, but that they conducted the test at too low of an altitude.

don't they run computer simulations first to preclude this... ????

Quoting Flybaurlax (Reply 39): Apparently they were testing an inverted bomb drop at supersonic speeds

OK I'll bite, why would you need to drop a bomb at supersonic speeds while inverted?  

Quoting kanban (Reply 40):

We got on the conversation talking about lake of cross checking all the numbers. Apparently no one really checked the math on that one. He said that mistakes like that still happen, and sometimes it costs someone's life. We got on this topic because I talked about the failure to write down the propeller we used for one of our test flights for a competition I was in. He said it's always important to make sure you check and recheck, and make sure everyone thinks of everything.

Quoting SP90 (Reply 41):

I haven't a clue. He didn't say why they needed to, and I didn't even imagine that scenario until he talked about it. I assume it's to see if they could push the capabilities of the jet and maneuvers.

Quoting SP90 (Reply 41): OK I'll bite, why would you need to drop a bomb at supersonic speeds while inverted?

must be a southern hemisphere thing where the upper surface of the plane must face north ....      

Quoting SP90 (Reply 41): OK I'll bite, why would you need to drop a bomb at supersonic speeds while inverted?

Who said anything about need? It just sounds like a cool thing to do...

Quoting moose135 (Reply 44): Who said anything about need? It just sounds like a cool thing to do...

Exactly what I thought when I was informed of the test. I mean, why wouldn't you want to? (if done successfully)

When the Raptor (or any stealth aircraft) opens its doors, it is no longer in stealth mode. Rolling inverted hides the open doors from ground based radars.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46): When the Raptor (or any stealth aircraft) opens its doors, it is no longer in stealth mode. Rolling inverted hides the open doors from ground based radars.

That totally makes sense. I don't know why I didn't see that. Thanks TopBoom!

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 46): When the Raptor (or any stealth aircraft) opens its doors, it is no longer in stealth mode. Rolling inverted hides the open doors from ground based radars.

If you do inverted bomb drop, is there any "spring" mechanism that would push the bomb far above the aircraft so you don't get that bomb back on the belly? I know at those speeds wind does wonders too, but I'm just interested.

Thanks.

BEG2IAH

Quoting BEG2IAH (Reply 48): If you do inverted bomb drop, is there any "spring" mechanism that would push the bomb far above the aircraft so you don't get that bomb back on the belly? I know at those speeds wind does wonders too, but I'm just interested.

So long as you're pulling some minimum amount of positive Gs, you'll be OK.