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tommytoyz
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:00 pm

If you have Al Quaeda, the US, the Europeans and the Arab League - all against you at the same time - You're in trouble and an have achieved extraordinary feat. Imagine Al Quaeda and the US with a common enemy! But that is what Ghaddafi has managed to do. Now he slashes and burns his own country like the Germans did in Russia in WW2, with him making crazy threats to everyone - this is madness that must be stopped.

He is a guy who has the resources to carry out most of his threats and does so all the time. These are not empty threats.

Yes, there are similar issues around the globe and even the Arab world, but none on this scale and none are making threats like him, nor do any of the others have a history of conducting international terrorism.
 
wingman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Mon Mar 21, 2011 10:02 pm

Does Aviano have "Ordinance Crossing" road signs? Seems incredible that civvies would be held up by Carabinieri while massive bomb loads make their way..
 
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Spacepope
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 12:32 am

Quoting AGM100 (Reply 98):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqPhMr2_rAA

Growler's ... and looks like 1,000lb and 500lb JDAMS.

No apostrophe in Growlers....

Also, from the video, the EA-18s went out unarmed except for a self-defense AMRAAM on the intake chine. JDAMS were probably for the F-16s based at Aviano, which have also seen action.
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Aesma
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:11 am

Quoting mham001 (Reply 99):
There is one country who does fit all of the above - and more. IRAN.

Iran is threatening western countries ? Iran has had the same crazy ruler for 40 years ? Elections in Iran are far from perfect, but there is no doubt Ahmadinejad has real support (and a real army, too, not mercenaries). Attacking Iran would be a disaster probably on the level of Afghanistan and Iraq combined !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
YVRLTN
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 4:05 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 91):
A ferry flight flying with a CC-150 Polaris MRTT of course, and a couple of stops on the way.

Stopped over in PIK.
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777
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:50 am

Apparently a F-15 went down last night during the operations over Libya.

According to the news reported by the Telegraph, the pilots seem to be OK and already recovered.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...cean/libya/8390035/Libya-Live.html
 
highlander0
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 10:55 am

Quoting 777 (Reply 105):
According to the news reported by the Telegraph, the pilots seem to be OK and already recovered.

Pilot, not pilots. BBC has updated it since then. I started a thread as you posted!
 
777
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:22 am

Quoting highlander0 (Reply 106):
ilot, not pilots. BBC has updated it since then. I started a thread as you posted!

The CNN still refers to a crew of two

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/af.../libya.civil.war/index.html?hpt=T1
 
777
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 3:51 pm

The Italian news website "Corriere della Sera" reports that an air-to-air combat happened between coalition fighters and a Libyan military aircraft while it was heading to Benghazi.

Libyan aircraft type and result of this fight are not reported

News only in Italian

http://www.corriere.it/esteri/11_mar...-5454-11e0-a5ef-46c31ce287ee.shtml
 
spantax
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:38 pm

Can anybody guess how many ac has Gadafi yet? Where could they be now, hidden somewhere in the dessert? Can they be destroyed on the ground if they are deemed to pose a danger? Where are the libyan AN-124 (not easy to conceal...)
A300, 310, 319, 320, 321, 330, 340, 380, AN-2, AN-26, ATR42, AVR85, 100, B717, 727, 737, 747, 757, 777, Q400, B1900D, C130, C212,
CH47, CRJ200, 700, 900, DC-3, DC-9, DHC4, ERJ 145, 190, F50, 70, 100, HS146, IL114, MD83, 87, 88.
 
GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 5:58 pm

Quoting spantax (Reply 109):
Can anybody guess how many ac has Gadafi yet? Where could they be now, hidden somewhere in the dessert? Can they be destroyed on the ground if they are deemed to pose a danger? Where are the libyan AN-124 (not easy to conceal...)

It's always been hard to say, not numbers, but effectiveness wise.
He brought lots of Mig-23's (the export version with the Mig-21 radar - thus negating the main advantage the -23 had over the -21), then stacks of Mirage F-1's.
However, many of the pilots were foreign (mercenaries in 'Daffy' Gaddafi's world are not new), often from Pakistan. (In that case maybe more of a govt. to govt. deal, in this period Libya was one of the oil states bankrolling Pakistan's nuclear ambitions).

More USSR types such as SU-22's and SU-24's, Mig-25's, even TU-22 bombers. (A French Hawk SAM shot down at least one of those in Chad in the 1980's).

Both SU-22's and Mig-23's were downed by USN F-14's in 1981 and 1989 respectively.
Aircraft were damaged in the US raid in 1986, certainly Mi-24 gunship choppers were left behind, with some fixed wing jets too perhaps, when the French/Chadian forces finally ran Daffy's forces out of Chad in 1987. (As well as a pile of other kit).

After embargo's at least from the West bit from the 1980's, the serviceability of the French types must have been questionable, even the USSR got lukewarm towards Daffy too, he was somewhat excessive even to them.
After he 'came in from the cold' (i.e. renounce terror support and WMD programs) in 2004, some work was done on Mirage F.1's - that one that defected to Malta at the start of all this looked pristine enough, likely ex Soviet types too got refurbished, in all this time though it's generally thought that only a fraction of his air fleet was ever serviceable.

You are probably looking at, when the uprising began, effective fast jet combat aircraft in several 10's rather than the 100's.
 
11Bravo
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 110):
He brought lots of Mig-23's (the export version with the Mig-21 radar - thus negating the main advantage the -23 had over the -21),....

Of the 109 MiG-23s procured by Libya over the years, only a very few were still operational when this conflict started. Some have now been captured (4-6 ?) in this conflict and at least two have been shot down. I presume others have been destroyed in allied air strikes. I'd be surprised if there are more than 10 flyable MiG-23s left at this point.

Quoting GDB (Reply 110):
... then stacks of Mirage F-1's.

Well, I guess that depends on how you define "stacks". Originally Libya acquired 32 F-1s, but by 2007 only 12 remained, and apparently only 4 F-1s were operational at the beginning of 2011. In the last weeks, two of those were flown to Malta and another was shot down. That leaves Libya with one flyable F-1. That is a very small stack.

Quoting GDB (Reply 110):
More USSR types such as SU-22's and SU-24's, Mig-25's, even TU-22 bombers.

There may be a few usable Su-22s knocking around, and apparently one Su-24, the others are no longer operational.

The Libyan Air Force was in very bad shape before this started. At this point, any sorties by the remaining Libyan aircraft would be suicidal; target practice for NATO pilots.
WhaleJets Rule!
 
GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:25 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 111):
Well, I guess that depends on how you define "stacks". Originally Libya acquired 32 F-1s, but by 2007 only 12 remained

I made the mistake of including the Mirage 5 aircraft they brought, into the Mirage F-1's.
About 60 of the delta version I think- though they sold them to Pakistan some time ago.
Given the number of trained pilots they had when they were delivered - you might argue there were 'stacks' of shiny new products of Dassault Aviation compared to Libyan pilots!

IIRC, did Libya once have lots (as in 3 figures) of SF.260 trainers/light attack aircraft.
(Very light as it's a piston initial training type - though that's how they were marketed).
 
mham001
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 103):
Iran is threatening western countries ?

Yes, they have. And Israel too if you don't consider them western. Threaten to bomb Iran like we threatened Libya and see how many more threats you get.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 103):
Iran has had the same crazy ruler for 40 years ?

Same basic regime, yes.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 103):
Elections in Iran are far from perfect, but there is no doubt Ahmadinejad has real support (and a real army, too, not mercenaries).

So does Kadafi as we've seen (and mercenaries have been part of the scene in that part of the world for centuries).

Not only that, Iran has exported more terrorism than Kadafi ever dreamed of. Not saying we should invade Iran, just saying the reasons given for this are weak, at best.
 
Beta
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:14 am

Press reports now have reported that indeed the USAF's newest and meanest fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor are MIA over the Libya campaign. The reason given is...wait for it...it cannot "talk" to other aircraft flying in the theater. I'm not sure I buy it. But there it is.

Quote:
One aircraft conspicuous by its absence over the skies of Libya is the U.S. Air Force's vaunted F-22 Raptor air dominance fighter. The Lockheed Martin-built jet was likely benched due to its inability to communicate with other coalition aircraft... The F-22 can only connect with other F-22s via an intraflight data link, and can only receive, but not transmit, over the standard Link-16 data link found on most allied aircraft...

- Dave Majumdar, DefenseNews

Link: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=6029012&c=MID&s=AIR

Would it make more sense for the USAF to put its beloved fighter through a relatively low-intensity baptism of fire to show, if it wanted the Congress to buy more of the plane?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:40 am

Ghadaffi came to power in a military coup (he was a captain in the regular army back then). He knew himself that it is very easy for determined soldiers to stage a coup against him so he did everything to emasculate the regular armed forces, instead setting up militias loyal only to himself using mercenaries and local cannonfodder.
Now technical branches of the military like an airforce, require a certain level of professionalism. While he might have been able to recruit mercenaries for the more specialised positions as pilots and maintenance crews, he can´t be too sure of their loyality. They will stay and fight as long as the money comes in, but they will not join Ghadaffi in a suicide pact (fight to the last bullet if there is still a chance for escape), like fanatical militiamen might do.

If the foreign pilots find themselves relegated to a new role as target drones, they might well quit their jobs and desert.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:49 am

Quoting Beta (Reply 114):
Press reports now have reported that indeed the USAF's newest and meanest fighter jet, the F-22 Raptor are MIA over the Libya campaign. The reason given is...wait for it...it cannot "talk" to other aircraft flying in the theater. I'm not sure I buy it. But there it is.

Bringing F-22 to libya is like bringing a bazooka to a knife fight.

There's no air to air action anyway in Libya, and F-22 is not very good in attack mission.

[Edited 2011-03-23 00:54:17]
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
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Devilfish
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:26 pm

Photos of Rafales from the aircraft carrier CdG.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...fales-fly-first-missions-over.html
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:02 pm

F-16s of the Royal Norwegian Airforce at the Souda Bay Base in Greece:


http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/01454/_G-Tittel-souda1_1_1454155a.jpg

http://media.aftenposten.no/archive/01454/libya6_G-Tittel-li_1454054x.jpg

http://gfx.dagbladet.no/labrador/159/159251/15925135/jpg/active/978x.jpg

http://static.vg.no/uploaded/image/2011/3/22/TS_f163_834_0.jpg

Pictures curtesy of Norwegian media; Aftenposten, Dagbladet, NRK and VG

[Edited 2011-03-23 14:03:23]
 
Beta
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting PolymerPlane (Reply 116):
Bringing F-22 to libya is like bringing a bazooka to a knife fight.

Same can be said to virtually almost all B-2 bombing mission since its introduction. And yet the B-2 just went on and dropped bombs in Libya a few nights ago. Look, I'm not saying the USAF should bring a whole fleet of F-22 to the campaign. But a small detachment of a few planes (4?) to put it through the rigor, tempo, and challenge of operating in an actual air campaign with allied forces could be useful. Smooth out some of the inefficiencies in SOP, etc.
I'm not even arguing the wisdom of "to be or not to be" with regard to "bringing it to the fight." I'm saying from the pov of military aviation enthusiast, it'd be an awesome sight to see the F-22 flying combat mission amongst its siblings and rivals.
 
PolymerPlane
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:16 pm

Quoting Beta (Reply 119):
And yet the B-2 just went on and dropped bombs in Libya a few nights ago.

Well it was a bombing mission, and B-2s are bombers.

Quoting Beta (Reply 119):
F-22 to the campaign. But a small detachment of a few planes (4?)

What mission would it fly?

Quoting Beta (Reply 119):
it'd be an awesome sight to see the F-22 flying combat mission amongst its siblings and rivals.

Well it won't fly among its rivals.

Why waste the best of the best while F-16 and F-15 are enough for the air to air missions, and can do much better job in the air to ground campaign. F-22 as of now is only a marginal bomber.

Look I am a biggest supporter of F-22, especially with the F-35 being as expensive as it is. I would love to see it in action. But risking it in battle unnecessarily, and risking exposure of its technology to even the closest ally, let alone china and russia is not a smart move.
One day there will be 100% polymer plane
 
bennett123
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:28 pm

Surely you expose to technology to an extent every time it flies anywhere.

So what do you do, just lock it in a hangar somewhere.
 
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Tugger
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:36 am

It appears that things are moving towards a "Bosnia style" shared oversight solution:

Quote:
The diplomats are now looking to Bosnia which was famously failed by the European Union in the mid 1990s. The EU finally redeemed itself when it assumed command from Nato of the peace keeping operation in Bosnia in 2004. The EU force, known as Eufor, has been in the lead ever since but is able to draw on Nato assets when needed.

In separate phone calls Tuesday night Barack Obama agreed with David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy that a similar structure would be established to run the no-fly zone over Libya.

Political oversight would be in the hands of members of the international coalition joining the action to enforce the UN security council resolution 1973. Britain, France and the US are in the lead, but the coalition also includes Arab countries such as Qatar and the United Arab Emirates. This oversight would be akin to the EU's role in Bosnia.

But the military campaign to enforce the no-fly zone would be run by Nato. This could mean that James Stavridis, an American admiral who is Nato's current Supreme Allied Commander Europe, could be in charge of the military operation.

The agreement by Obama, Sarkozy and Cameron will have to be put to all 28 members of Nato.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011...us-nato-libya-operation-infighting

I love the last paragraph in the article:

Quote:
One observer of Anglo-American military adventures over the last 20 years tried to make light of the impasse. "It's a bit like a barn dance," the source said of the efforts to decide whether and how Nato would run the operation. "Half of the people can't dance, a couple are drunk and then there's always the characters at the back with their hands up various skirts."

Tugg
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Bureaucromancer
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:06 am

Quoting Bennett123 (Reply 121):
So what do you do, just lock it in a hangar somewhere.

Pretty much. So far as I know they have never deployed outside the United States on anything like an operational basis... I support the aircraft as well (and for the record I pay taxes in both the US and Canada), but frankly the level of concern over it's technology is more than a little overblown. I can see not wanting to see them to Israel (though why NOT Australia? Seriously, who are they going to share things they shouldn't with?), but we seem to be at the point of not wanting to USE them for fear of allies getting information. They just aren't THAT valuable.

[Edited 2011-03-24 00:07:42]
 
Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 4:28 pm

The Norwegian F16s has now been asigned to the US North African branch and the Odyssey Dawn operation. Two of the six F16 today took of from the base in Greece for Libya at around mid day today.
 
osteogenesis
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 7:01 pm

It has been reported that a French Rafale has destroyed an Libyan plane just after it landed. Strange that this plane was able to make an entire flight???

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-afri...rce=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
 
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Francoflier
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:29 pm

Quoting osteogenesis (Reply 125):
It has been reported that a French Rafale has destroyed an Libyan plane just after it landed. Strange that this plane was able to make an entire flight???

Details are sketchy so far.

Some say the aircraft was about to land or even on the ground.
It could be that it made a tentative take off to test how strictly the no-fly zone was enforced and found out before it could cower away. Or maybe it managed to do a bombing sortie and didn't get caught soon enough.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu Mar 24, 2011 11:16 pm

Reportedly hit by an air to ground weapon released from the Rafale.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 25, 2011 2:46 am

Canada has also sent 2 CP-140 Aurora's (P-3 Orions with the sensor suite of the old S-3 Viking) to the region to help patrol the coast, add to Canada's contribution of 7 CF-18's, 2 CC-150's, and various other aircraft.
 
Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Mar 25, 2011 11:27 pm

- 3 laserguided bombs were launched from 2 F-16 of the Royal Norwegian airforce on Friday 25.03.2011, against Libyan tanks

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article4073163.ece
 
Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 26, 2011 8:05 am

F-16s from the Royal Norwegian Airforce bombed an airfield in Libya during the night

http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/03/26/nyheter/utenriks/libya/15959765/
 
AGM100
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:46 pm

EC-130 commando solos are operating ... check out this sight. The man is twittering picked off radio signals from coalition air control. Man that seems a little weird to me ... a F-16CJ WW with mode S transmitting...

A story I heard yesterday that one of the EC-130's was operating under code name "Sheen ###" after Charley Sheen ... . Winning !

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/20...ransmissions-psyops-libya-032111w/
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Devilfish
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:27 pm

Nice ones.....

View Large View Medium
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Photo © Carlos Aleman - SJU Aviation Photography


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Photo © K. Bell


View Large View Medium
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Photo © K. Bell

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Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Sun Mar 27, 2011 8:36 pm

Norwegian F-16s has now performed 15 - 20 sorties and dropped 12 to 15 bombs on targets ranging from tanks, artillerary and other millitary targets.
 
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Spacepope
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Mon Mar 28, 2011 8:30 pm

Thought this was interesting to watch: Malta live ATC

http://vm4-nat.surleweb.eu:1084/VirtualRadar/GoogleMap.htm#

Seen a few NATO E-3s, a French E-2, US and Danish C-130s and quite a few REACH flights pop up in the tracking box. Positions and speeds are not displayed.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
GDB
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 29, 2011 6:35 am

Cockpit footage from a RAF Tornado GR.4;
(Interesting mix of LGB and Brimstone missiles - CAS mission).
Some CAS sorties have involved RAPTOR recce pod GR.4's spotting armour than directing armed GR.4's to hit them - the latter orbiting around taking fuel from a VC-10 until called in).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uboty...mPf4&feature=player_embedded#at=81

One launched from RAF Marham in the UK (Which despite the deployment to Italy is still happening - Storm Shadows destroyed arms dumps yesterday).
Note the RAF Tristar in this one (maybe that's why a friend didn't make it to a concert on Friday - his flight back from Afghanistan was delayed!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pntwuQtwt3U&feature=related
 
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bikerthai
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Mar 29, 2011 1:36 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 135):

Great footage. Almost like if I was there!

bikerthai
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Mortyman
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Fri Apr 15, 2011 3:35 pm

By April 15th 2011 the Norwegian F16's has flown over 80 sorties and dropped over 100 bombs.


http://www.dagbladet.no/2011/04/15/n...iks/libya/nato/forsvaret/16203663/
 
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par13del
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Tue Apr 19, 2011 3:35 pm

Today 19th April 2011 the BBC is reporting that UK military officers will be deployed to Libya in the opposition stronghold to assist with logistics etc. etc. etc. What stood out to me is that the story says that these soldiers will be in civilian clothes and probably carry sidearms.

1. We have a conflict between two parties, one government who has now been dis-recognized" by the international community and a group of individuals who are fighting against them.

2. A third country now send in military personnel to assist, if they are captured by the dis-recognized government, what are they and how should they be treated?
 
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Devilfish
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RE: U.N. Security Council Approve No-fly Zone In Libya

Thu May 12, 2011 3:51 pm

Video inside RAF Sentinel.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13361379
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