More CH-148 Cyclone Delays For Canada...

JoeCanuck · Thu May 26, 2011 9:15 pm

I have no doubt that the Cyclone will be a terrific aircraft and serve Canada well but this is getting a bit old;

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles...y-for-interim-ch-148-delivery.html

Quote:
The new timetable marks the latest in a long series of delays since Sikorsky was awarded the contract in 2004 to deliver 28 military derivatives of the S-92 under the maritime helicopter programme (MHP).

sasd209 · Thu May 26, 2011 10:16 pm

I'm as big a fan of Sikorsky Helicopters as anybody, but this is just absurd by now. The S-92 has been in revenue service since 2004, why is the military derivative taking so long to get into operational squadron service?? Is this because of the DND or of Sikorsky, or a combo of both? ( I have read the other threads on the topic)
I'd like the opinions of those in Canada and how you and your countrymen see this program. Of course facts are always welcome as well, should anybody be close to the program on either side and are able to speak without violating any secrecy rules, etc.

mffoda · Fri May 27, 2011 12:25 am

Despite the delays in this case (Program)... the Canadians are making out very well...

I was talking with a buddy (works on the program) a number of months ago about the CH-148 program... And it seems that they are getting some FREE birds out of the delays... Maybe another one now??

Cheers,,,

JoeCanuck · Fri May 27, 2011 2:32 am

Here is a list of some compensation Canada is getting from Sikorsky...and more on the story in general;

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ones-Better-Late-Than-Never-05223/

Quote:
June 30/10: The Canadian government and Sikorsky sign an agreement to amend their CH-148 contract. In return for changes to acceptance criteria for the initial helicopter set, to the overall delivery schedule, and to milestone payments and liquidated damages provisions, Sikorsky will:

Withdraw an existing arbitration claim against the government;
Invest another C$ 80 million in contracts/ R&D work with Canadian firms;
Offer payments for any future MH-92 maritime helicopter sales that could amount to more than US$ 30 million;
Charge reduced interim helicopter in-service support rates until acceptance of the fully compliant helicopters in June 2012.

Liquidated damages requirements will now be triggered only by failure to deliver interim helicopters starting in November 2010, and for failure to deliver the fully compliant helicopters beginning in June 2012. The C$ 3.2 billion 20-year in-service support contract will run until March 2028. Source.

mffoda · Fri May 27, 2011 3:17 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 3):
Here is a list of some compensation Canada is getting from Sikorsky...and more on the story in general;

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...ones-Better-Late-Than-Never-05223/

Quote:

That seems to be a bit better then I suspected... not including the most recent delay...

JoeCanuck · Fri May 27, 2011 4:54 am

They'll be good birds when we get them...and then we can finally put this almost 2 decade old debacle behind us...and move on to the next headache.

ThePointblank · Fri May 27, 2011 5:36 am

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
They'll be good birds when we get them...and then we can finally put this almost 2 decade old debacle behind us...and move on to the next headache.

Two decades? Try Four... Three of those were spent (not) buying helicopters.

328JET · Fri May 27, 2011 10:35 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 5):
They'll be good birds when we get them...and then we can finally put this almost 2 decade old debacle behind us...and move on to the next headache.

LOL.

I think we will get the helicopter as well, but after all these teething problems, please...

mffoda · Fri May 27, 2011 10:50 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):
I think we will get the helicopter as well, but after all these teething problems, please...

Hey Jet... are you hinting Germany is leanig to or will select the H-92?

L-188 · Sat May 28, 2011 3:45 am

I will never understand why they went with this airframe vs. The proven SH-60. Unless it is a case of big helicopter syndrome.

Hopefully the windscreens won't drop out of these like they did on the cormorants.

columba · Sat May 28, 2011 4:32 am

Quoting mffoda (Reply 8):

The Cyclone is under consideration in Germany as well and favored by some high ranking officials but nothing is decided yet.

ThePointblank · Sat May 28, 2011 4:43 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 9):
I will never understand why they went with this airframe vs. The proven SH-60. Unless it is a case of big helicopter syndrome.

Hopefully the windscreens won't drop out of these like they did on the cormorants.

Size. Canada has a history of operating large helicopters from its ships, and had earlier rejected the SH-60 in the first go around for MHP in favour of the EH-101. The SH-60 didn't have the endurance or the interior space necessary to carry the sensors and weapons long enough to be an adequate Sea King replacement. Also, it was only until recently with the MH-60R did the SH-60 carried both active and passive sensors, and the MH-60R is a very tight bird on the inside with all of the sensors. I will also add that there were concerns over crew workload in the SH-60, as the SH-60 can realistically only carry 3 crew members while the Sea King carries 4, which helps divide up the workload.

L-188 · Sat May 28, 2011 5:48 am

Like I said thepointblank....helicopter envy.

328JET · Sat May 28, 2011 4:52 pm

Quoting columba (Reply 10):
The Cyclone is under consideration in Germany as well and favored by some high ranking officials but nothing is decided yet.

Some people believe, it will be our new navy helicopter, but every delay gives AugustaWestland and Eurocopter good chances to improve their own products, which are still under consideration as well.

mffoda · Sat May 28, 2011 5:24 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 11):
The SH-60 didn't have the endurance or the interior space necessary to carry the sensors and weapons long enough to be an adequate Sea King replacement.

The US Navy manages to fit all the weapons and sensors in their H-60 birds!! But then again they got rid of their Vacuum tube sensors some time ago...

ThePointblank · Sat May 28, 2011 9:40 pm

Quoting mffoda (Reply 14):
The US Navy manages to fit all the weapons and sensors in their H-60 birds!! But then again they got rid of their Vacuum tube sensors some time ago...

Yeah, but the interior space is still tiny...

The Sea Hawk had less autonomy than the Sea King. It was heavily dependent on the Hawk Link (and later, Link-16 and TCDL), which was a high bandwidth link back to the ship. Advanced radar and acoustic processing was done in the ship through the datalink. Video could also be moved down the Hawk Link when the turret was added. In essence, the Sea Hawk was essentially designed as a weapons carrying system with the parent ship doing the targeting and directing.

Maritime Command practice was to load up the helo with more sensors (both passive and active) and allow them more free range - hence the requirement for a bigger bird. This is the same practice used by the Australians and the Brits as well with their larger naval ASW helicopters. Also, there was also concern about the low small cabin in the 60, as it made utility and SAR duty more difficult. Our ships are designed to operate large helicopters that can operate autonomously from the mothership; the design features onboard reflect this.

JoeCanuck · Sun May 29, 2011 8:44 pm

Quoting 328JET (Reply 7):

No worries...Canada will keep kicking butt until we get the product we ordered...which will be a very good product indeed. Sikorsky will end up with a few more customers, thanks in part to Canadian pig headedness...we should get a commission on ever other sale.

As a nation, we are just so sick to death about the long history of screwups in the program. Even with that, it still seems like those responsible for the program are not willing to compromise just to get the program finished.

That the end of the troubles seems to be near and our people who volunteer to put themselves into harms way will finally get the tools they need to get the job done right, is a relief and exciting.

sasd209 · Mon May 30, 2011 5:22 pm

Quoting JoeCanuck (Reply 16):
Canada will keep kicking butt until we get the product we ordered

I surely hope that is true. Sikorsky needs to be held accountable to the contract they signed with Canada. And I also agree that these helicopters will be a great addition to the Canadian Navy..

mffoda · Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:48 pm

The delays are over!

Hard to believe this threads last post was over 4 years ago....

"Canada accepts first six Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclones"

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...x-sikorsky-ch-148-cyclones-413896/

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