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Stitch
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Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:06 pm

Boeing today held an all-hands meeting at the Wichita facilities to inform the ~2100 people that they will close the facility by the end of 2013, siting lack of defense contract growth.

Boeing had originally planned to perform KC46A conversion work there, but this work will now be handled on the line at PAE as well as facilities in Texas and Oklahoma. While the 2100 Wichita employees will be terminated, Boeing will hire thousands more in Washington, Texas and Oklahoma.

http://mynorthwest.com/11/603873/BRE...KING-Boeing-to-close-Wichita-plant
 
sw733
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:08 pm

What a loss for Wichita, and for Kansas. I think the state will be OK in the long run, but the city...that might be a different story.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 5:13 pm

I can't help but wonder if the IAM in Washington signing that new deal extension, combined with the fact that the new 767 line is ITAR compliant so military work can be performed on 767-2C airframes destined to become KC-46As, didn't help nudge Boeing to decide to close Wichita rather than keep it open to handle KC-46 adaption work.
 
citationjet
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 6:17 pm

Kansas congressman have some very unkind words for Boeing.

What neither Boeing, nor any other company, has the right to do is make false statements, violate long-held commitments to communities or to receive federal contracts based on representations that it knows are not accurate. The fact that Boeing now appears determined to leave our state will not prevent me from seeking to hold the company accountable for its promises and commitments,” stated Pompeo. "


http://media.kansas.com/smedia/2012/01/04/11/37/Se06V.So.80.pdf
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Stitch
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:01 pm

Boeing now says that the job gains will be in the low hundreds, at best. The Puget Sound will gain 200 positions, however 100 existing positions will be eliminated and sent to OKC, leaving the net gain at 100.
 
sw733
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 7:39 pm

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 3):
Kansas congressman have some very unkind words for Boeing.

Kansas worked very hard to secure the Air Force contract under promises that Boeing would stay in Wichita, but they cannot be too mad...they (Pompeo and Brownback especially) were too inept to secure anything official - it was all words and promises. Neither Kansas nor Boeing look very good right now IMHO (as a Kansas resident).
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:13 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 2):
I can't help but wonder if the IAM in Washington signing that new deal extension, combined with the fact that the new 767 line is ITAR compliant so military work can be performed on 767-2C airframes destined to become KC-46As, didn't help nudge Boeing to decide to close Wichita rather than keep it open to handle KC-46 adaption work.

I was under the impression that Boeing would be constructing a fully completed 767-2C airframe only to fly it to Wichita and then have 30 percent of the airframe removed and scrapped then replaced by tanker-specific structural components. If so, then yes you are right.

As most of the local media here is saying, although this is a win for the Puget Sound region, its never a good thing to alienate the congressional delegation of an entire state. This will smart in KS for a long time.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
bennett123
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:00 pm

IIRC, during the Tanker campaign those supporting Boeing made many statements about the jobs that would be created/maintained if the DOD ordered Boeing.

How big a hole will this decision make in those statements.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:35 pm

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 6):
I was under the impression that Boeing would be constructing a fully completed 767-2C airframe only to fly it to Wichita and then have 30 percent of the airframe removed and scrapped then replaced by tanker-specific structural components.

Not true anymore. If P-8A is of any guide, they will try to install as much in the 767 line as possible, including anything that halfway resemble a "commercial" item. Even the bomb bay door for the P-8A is installed on the commercial line.

Things that gets installed at the "mod" site would include the Military stuff like Mission LRU's, the boom and related fuels system installation which isn't much for this tanker anyway.

They will unlikely remove and scrapped 30 percent of the airplane like they did with Wedgetail.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):
IIRC, during the Tanker campaign those supporting Boeing made many statements about the jobs that would be created/maintained if the DOD ordered Boeing.

Jobs will still be created. It's just that the jobs will be created elsewhere . . .
The 41 section will still be built in Wichita by Spirit . . . the nacelles and struts also.

Personally, all of this was set in stone when Boeing sold of their commercial operation to Spirit. I was surprised it took this long to move the rest of the Military operation. I guess they wanted the Kansas delegation support during this time. And now that the contract is signed, they don't need that support any more.
  

From a political aspect, it does smells . . . but from the business aspect it makes sense.

bikerthai
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ouboy79
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting Stitch (Thread starter):
While the 2100 Wichita employees will be terminated, Boeing will hire thousands more in Washington, Texas and Oklahoma.

While it does suck for Wichita, Oklahoma City is going to benefit a bunch...

http://newsok.com/update-boeing-will...s-to-oklahoma-city/article/3637499

This will be an additional 800 jobs coming to OKC. This will be on top of the already announced 550 jobs coming from the Long Beach facility. Boeing has been expanding like crazy with a new office building for the previously announced jobs. This should end up require even more expansion of their facilities here.
 
BMI727
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:35 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):

IIRC, during the Tanker campaign those supporting Boeing made many statements about the jobs that would be created/maintained if the DOD ordered Boeing.

Viewing defense programs as jobs programs is going to do no favors for DoD or the American taxpayer. But, of course it's going to affect where politicians throw their support, but I think that nobody can blame Boeing for making a business decision in this case. The tanker program has plenty of goals, but the point is not to create jobs in Kansas.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 8):
Personally, all of this was set in stone when Boeing sold of their commercial operation to Spirit.

Be interesting to see if Kansas politicians start taking an anti-Boeing stance and ignore how much work they give to Spirit.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:03 am

Would Boeing be willing to move skilled Wichita employees and their families to other Boeing centers where workers are needed? Skilled aviation workers are valuable resources.
Dare to dream; dream big!
 
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kanban
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 4:44 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 11):
Would Boeing be willing to move skilled Wichita employees and their families to other Boeing centers where workers are needed?


Probably not... some will retire, some will move to other aircraft/component companies in Wichita, a few managers might be given the option of transfer, and some will move to St. Louis.
 
ouboy79
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 9:21 am

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 11):

Would Boeing be willing to move skilled Wichita employees and their families to other Boeing centers where workers are needed? Skilled aviation workers are valuable resources.

Since a large portion of the work is going to Oklahoma City, just 4 hours south, I would imagine many will be able to relocate. In under 12 months, Boeing has now increased its workforce in Oklahoma City by almost 1400 people.

Seattle Time article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/boeingaerospace/2017157214_wichita05.html?prmid=4939) gives some more details. The 800 from Wichita to OKC, 300-400 from Wichita to San Antonio, another 200 from Wichita to Seattle, and then 100 from Seattle to OKC.

San Antonio will hand B-52 maintenance, modification, and support work. All engineering work is going to OKC. OKC already handles (for Boeing) the C-130 and B-1 upgrade projects. OKC is also getting the military and government executive-transport jets support, maintenance, and modification work from Seattle...mainly the 737s.
 
ebj1248650
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 11:49 am

Quoting ouboy79 (Reply 13):
San Antonio will hand B-52 maintenance, modification, and support work.

That's interesting because B-52 maintenance used to be done at Kelly AFB under San Antonio Air Material Area control. Now the Buffs are coming back. That's cool!
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 2:30 pm

Quoting ebj1248650 (Reply 11):
Would Boeing be willing to move skilled Wichita employees and their families to other Boeing centers where workers are needed? Skilled aviation workers are valuable resources.

Boeing has stated that critical skilled employees will be helped to re-locate ($$$). For many workers, there will be plenty of jobs available within Boeing if they are willing to move. Many Wichita Engineers have transferred to the Puget Sound over the last few years having "read the tea leaves".

Experienced production worker are still sorely needed in the Puget Sound with the up coming rate increase.

Also note that one major reason why Boeing has consolidated in Oklahoma is that the customer is consolidating its work to Oklahoma.

bikerthai
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Northwest727
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:17 pm

I posted this in another thread, looks like that (duplicate) was deleted, but its kinda sad seeing that Wichita is quickly becoming the Detroit of the aviation world. Seems Boeing, Cessna, Hawker Beechcraft, etc. are always announcing layoffs.
 
checksixx
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Fri Jan 06, 2012 3:36 am

Quoting CitationJet (Reply 3):
Kansas congressman have some very unkind words for Boeing.

What neither Boeing, nor any other company, has the right to do is make false statements, violate long-held commitments to communities or to receive federal contracts based on representations that it knows are not accurate. The fact that Boeing now appears determined to leave our state will not prevent me from seeking to hold the company accountable for its promises and commitments,” stated Pompeo. "

LoL...this congressman must be living in a dream world!! He's going to try to hold them accountable for 'promises' and 'commitments'?? LoL...Someone should tell him 99% of the time, its not illegal to lie...and in this case, as long as the contractor can provide the item as stated, it doesn't matter where they produce it.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Fri Jan 06, 2012 6:18 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 5):
Kansas worked very hard to secure the Air Force contract under promises that Boeing would stay in Wichita, but they cannot be too mad...they (Pompeo and Brownback especially) were too inept to secure anything official - it was all words and promises. Neither Kansas nor Boeing look very good right now IMHO (as a Kansas resident).

Serves them right for putting their own parochial interests ahead of those of the nation.

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):
IIRC, during the Tanker campaign those supporting Boeing made many statements about the jobs that would be created/maintained if the DOD ordered Boeing.

As did NG/EADS supporters, but obviously not in a legally-binding document.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10):
Viewing defense programs as jobs programs is going to do no favors for DoD or the American taxpayer. But, of course it's going to affect where politicians throw their support, but I think that nobody can blame Boeing for making a business decision in this case. The tanker program has plenty of goals, but the point is not to create jobs in Kansas.

  

The contract decision was strongly based on price, so it should be no suprise that Boeing made some facilities optimization.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
Experienced production worker are still sorely needed in the Puget Sound with the up coming rate increase.

Seems the 787 program needs more that are good at documenting what they are doing as they do it.
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chuchoteur
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:45 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 7):
IIRC, during the Tanker campaign those supporting Boeing made many statements about the jobs that would be created/maintained if the DOD ordered Boeing.

As did NG/EADS supporters, but obviously not in a legally-binding document.

It's not comparing apples to apples either...

In relation to the NG/EADS proposal, it would have been a net increase in jobs via the creation of the assembly line in Alabama.

What we don't know is how many jobs it maintains at Boeing vs what would effectively have been cut, we can only speculate... but that would be the accurate comparison.
 
JayinKitsap
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:44 am

Well with any product there is the cost of production, if an article (including its subcontracted parts) is divided up into labor and material we can see how many manhours one would support. I beileve Boeing's escalator is based on 65% labor adjustments and 35% materials. Let's say 2/3 labor, a $150M pricetag and $100/hr. Each tanker would have $100M labor or 1 million manhours. That is 500 man years. At 10 planes a year that is 5,000 jobs for 17 years.

As opposed to jobs "created or saved", it is best to look at the man years of work. I cannot figure out how they got 45,000 jobs created in the PR wars. The budget doesn't support that, unless we have $10 jobs. Further, we are buying planes instead of bridges, the bridges we didn't build would have created an amount of manyears of work that is now deferred.

I think Boeing is sharpening their pencil to see how they can make money at what they bid, or loss less, as they are making hard decisions it is probably the lose less. Further since putting together the proposals there has been a lot of negative announcements as to DOD budgets. Wichita might have made sense a year ago, but with less contracts it is brutal now.

Hard dollar bids are far different than cost plus where the politicians can feather their communities a bit.
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:35 pm

...if any of you guys know anybody over in Wichita who's being laid off, doesn't want to move, and loves working for an aircraft manufacturer: The following message has just been posted by Airbus in the U.S. on their facebook page


Hey! Are you an Aerostructures Engineer? The Airbus Americas Engineering Center located in the Old Town section of Wichita is set to hire dozens of additional aerostructures engineers in the next few months. In fact, the company began soliciting applications today (applications can be sent to [email protected]). The new engineers will join approximately 300 Airbus professionals already working in Wichita, and their work will support continued product development on projects such as Airbus’ forthcoming A350 XWB aircraft.

Since Airbus opened its first U.S. engineering office in Wichita in 2002, the facility has gained a reputation within Airbus globally and within the Wichita aerospace community for providing high quality engineering solutions. The office already is engaged on every Airbus commercial product from A320 to A380, in addition to providing engineering solutions for in-service repairs. The growth announced today is simply the next phase of Airbus’ continuing growth – and continuing success – in Kansas.
 
wingscrubber
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:21 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 17):
LoL...this congressman must be living in a dream world!! He's going to try to hold them accountable for 'promises' and 'commitments'?? LoL...Someone should tell him 99% of the time, its not illegal to lie...and in this case, as long as the contractor can provide the item as stated, it doesn't matter where they produce it.

Pompeo and Brownback lobbied pretty hard for the tanker contract, and have been handed a slap in the face by Boeing for their hard work, this is not typically how you repay political favors, and is commonly known as backstabbing. Given that the tanker contract was won by Boeing primarily with some clever bankhanded politics rather than by technical merit alone, this is a very poor way to say thankyou, regardless of the merit of the 'business case'. So this becomes a contract won on unethical grounds, followed up by an unethical decision to abandon the town and state who lobbied for it.

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 21):

Hey! Are you an Aerostructures Engineer? The Airbus Americas Engineering Center located in the Old Town section of Wichita is set to hire dozens of additional aerostructures engineers in the next few months.

I suspect Airbus will be welcomed to Wichita with open arms now!
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BMI727
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:29 pm

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):
Pompeo and Brownback lobbied pretty hard for the tanker contract, and have been handed a slap in the face by Boeing for their hard work,

The point of the contract was not to build a tanker in America or their district, the point was to build a tanker for the Air Force. If the politicians don't get that, then they are idiots.

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):
this is not typically how you repay political favors, and is commonly known as backstabbing.

Kind of like how John McCain likes to make Boeing his whipping boy even though they have a factory in his state?

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):
Given that the tanker contract was won by Boeing primarily with some clever bankhanded politics rather than by technical merit alone

Oh, now I see your problem.

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):
So this becomes a contract won on unethical grounds, followed up by an unethical decision to abandon the town and state who lobbied for it.

Or it could be a contract won because the product was determined to be a better option for the people who actually use it. And I'm sure all American taxpayers would appreciate Boeing inflating costs and putting in higher bids just to keep politicians happy by tossing them jobs. Maybe if the tanker were a cost plus contract Boeing wouldn't do this.

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):
I suspect Airbus will be welcomed to Wichita with open arms now!

Perhaps not by all of the people still employed making parts for Boeings.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
chuchoteur
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 24, 2012 6:56 pm

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 23):
Perhaps not by all of the people still employed making parts for Boeings.

...given that Spirit Aerostructures also make parts for Airbus, I'm not sure they'll be too upset...
... it's al about not having all your eggs in the same basket really  
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:52 pm

Quoting wingscrubber (Reply 22):

Pompeo and Brownback lobbied pretty hard for the tanker contract,

You may be right, but all we hear up here in the Pacific Northwest are the rhetoric from their two Republican Colleagues from Alabama who also have a Boeing facility in their states. Maybe the gentlemen from Kansas were not vocal enough to drown out their colleagues from their side of the aisle . . .

Still, there is still tanker work in Wichita (via Spirit) and now there is impetus for the Oklahoma delegation to support the tanker in any future defense spending cut.

Back-handed, maybe . . . but it must be done.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
humanitarian
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RE: Boeing To Close Wichita Facility

Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:28 pm

Boeing needs to watch itself on this as they are making even more enemies in Congress from Kansas. In December, Sen. McCain asked Sec Def Panetta to investigate why a Boeing VP who happens to be a retired USAF Lt. General was involved as a mentor in a war game for the air tanker program on behalf of the USAF while on the payroll of Boeing.

Also, this same Boeing VP is on the Board of the nonprofit Air Force National Museum Foundation which received a $5 million donation from Boeing one week before the USAF awarded Boeing the tanker contract. What makes this troublesome is that the $5 million will be gifted over from the Foundation to the USAF for their National Museum which is owned and operated by the USAF. Boeing knew this money was destined to the USAF when they agreed to donate it.

Sen. McCain story: http://www.usatoday.com/news/militar...tor-conflict/51451582/1?csp=34news

Alabama story on donation: http://blog.al.com/press-register-bu...ir_force_tanker_loss_get_boei.html

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