Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR

 
User avatar
sebolino
Topic Author
Posts: 3582
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 3:49 pm

In a strange ballet, Brasil is now sending signs of interest for the Rafale after first having chosen it and rejected it.

According to "Le monde", the Rafale will be "probably chosen" !!!! http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/artic...hoisir-le-rafale_1642406_3234.html

Switzerland is also said to regret its choice of the Gripen and to be greatly interested by the Rafale. http://www.air-cosmos.com/a-la-une/2...cteurs-au-bresil-et-en-suisse.html


I don't know what to think about all that. The Rafale which was a piece of junk just one month ago is now the best fighter available   

If all that is true, it sounds very childish. Customers were really waiting for others to make the first buy ?



[Edited 2012-02-13 08:02:56]
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11194
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:14 pm

It is strange. I thought Brazil had been leaning towards the F/A-18E/F, and the Swiss were satisfied with their choice of the Gripen.

What has changed? The only thing I can think of would be the offer made by the French, or perhaps a 'second offer'.

How reliable is the reporting of the "Le Monde"? Could this just be wishful thinking?
 
User avatar
SAS A340
Posts: 905
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 4:47 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
What has changed?

If my memory doesen't fail me i was of the impression that tha Rafale was pretty expensive to buy,but for what i read recently regarding the India deal, Rafale was 30% cheaper than the Euro fighter,and the second offer to the Swiss was at a price that almost was the same as the one SAAB made......has Rafale become to be the cheapest fighter??
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5909
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:40 pm

Don't count on me. I don't understand anything anymore.  

Two days ago: Saab offered a price reduction of about 410 million €, just after the news that Rafale would be cheaper.

One day ago: Some evaluation reports now say that the Gripen would be "worse" than the F/A-18C/D we now have. The minister of defense says he didn't know about these reports.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 5:41 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
What has changed?

Regarding the Swiss RFP, there is two reasons:

1) This has already been discussed in the thread "Swizz RFP for fighter by end of may". Basically the choice of the Gripen by the Defense Minister Ueli Maurer is now under massive contreversy, since leak reports signed by the commander of the Swiss Air Force himself clearly states that the Gripen does not meet the minimum requirement for the "Police du Ciel" type of mission whilst the Rafale is overall ranked first with the Eurofighter percieved as the best alternative to Rafale.
http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf
The choice of the gripen has to be approved by the parliament but is now severly compromised.

2) Dassault has just made an agressive offer.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
I thought Brazil had been leaning towards the F/A-18E/F

1) That was true until Roussef eventualy got concerns about the USA as a reliable partner (the Tuccano deal to Venezuela blocked by the USA) and its offer in terms of ToT.
2) The Indian decision to select Rafale made Brazil more comfortable to select Rafale as well.

New leaks about the swiss evaluation published today, this time it looks a lot more authentic than the previous leaks in swiss newspapers as this report is signed by the commander of the Swiss Air Force himself:
Stephane
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 6:18 pm

Quoting sebolino (Thread starter):
If all that is true, it sounds very childish. Customers were really waiting for others to make the first buy ?

Not childish at all. The idea that another country would be operating for the next 30-40 years a large fleet of the very same fighter jet your air force is interested in (wanted?) is very reassuring. It removes anxiety that what you'll buy would suddenly be short on spares and support. Also, this would mean Dassault could be more flexible as to pricing, offsets and technology transfer.

Quoting SAS A340 (Reply 2):
If my memory doesen't fail me i was of the impression that tha Rafale was pretty expensive to buy,but for what i read recently regarding the India deal, Rafale was 30% cheaper than the Euro fighter,and the second offer to the Swiss was at a price that almost was the same as the one SAAB made......has Rafale become to be the cheapest fighter??

Maybe not the cheapest still, but down to a point where the performance and capabilities can be deemed worth the price difference, and affordable enough for the Swiss to stretch a little bit more.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
The minister of defense says he didn't know about these reports.

When the going gets tough, the not so tough gets going.  

[Edited 2012-02-13 10:56:41]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
User avatar
kc135topboom
Posts: 11194
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:26 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:41 pm

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
Two days ago: Saab offered a price reduction of about 410 million €, just after the news that Rafale would be cheaper.

One day ago: Some evaluation reports now say that the Gripen would be "worse" than the F/A-18C/D we now have.
Quoting flagon (Reply 4):
New leaks about the swiss evaluation published today, this time it looks a lot more authentic than the previous leaks in swiss newspapers as this report is signed by the commander of the Swiss Air Force himself:

This seems now to be a selection not made on military capability but on a political capability.

flagon, are you saying the latest news media 'leaks' were made by the Commander of the Swiss Air Force himself? Publicly going up against his boss, Defense Minister Ueli Maurer? Isn't Maurer also the Swiss Vice President?
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5909
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Mon Feb 13, 2012 11:08 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
Isn't Maurer also the Swiss Vice President?

Not wanting to teach you a lesson, but it may be interesting to you:

The government is formed by 7 federal councillors. One of them is the president, one is the vice president. Being the president is merely a ceremonial duty - you're the most visible member of the council as you have more speeches to do, more travels abroad, state visits... but you have not any special power because you are president. "Primus inter pares", the "first among equals" is the word. The office term is one year only (as opposed to four years as the councillor). It is an unwritten law that each year, the most senior councillor that hasn't been president lately is elected to be president.

Formally, every decision made by our government is made by all seven councillors together. You won't know which of the seven have decided in favor or against something. In public, your stance must be the one adopted by the majority of the council. It's considered bad style to say "...well, but in my opinion I think that...".


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:58 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 6):
flagon, are you saying the latest news media 'leaks' were made by the Commander of the Swiss Air Force himself?

Off-course not, well I hope not, otherwise that would be quite worrying. I would have thought the leaks come from people close to the matter that got frustrated by the way the selection eventually ended up totally biaised?
Stephane
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:00 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 7):
Not wanting to teach you a lesson, but it may be interesting to you

Thanks for these details, that helps understanding a bit more the political side of things...
Stephane
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:05 pm

What a mess...

The Tiger Replacement Proposal has never been a popular one and it's a perfect example of politicians getting involved (once again) in areas which they have no clue of - fortunately were not the only nation with this dilemma.  

The whole matter being way too complicated by now, this is how I've come to interpret the whole situation:

The Swiss Air Force pilots have always favoured the Eurofighter (a total overkill for our needs), Dassault seem to have gotten pissed because they lost to the Swedes and were worried whether the Indian Air Force was going to purchase a big bunch of Rafales, and therefore have now come up with an undercutting offer for 18 Rafales. At the same time, the anti-military crowd still don't see the need for an army let alone a F-5 Tiger replacement, claiming that similar sized nations like Austria are able to perform air policing duties with less aircraft and are now triumphantly rubbing their hands in the background. Last but not least, our Defense Minister, Ueli Maurer, being a former infantry cyclist has never been a fan of the air force and has never given this replacement project its full backing.

In short, so what does this mean for the Swiss Air Force?

The Swiss Air Force won't be seeing any new replacement aircraft for its aging F-5 Tigers anytime soon, if ever. Whether this is a mistake or not, only time will tell. Sooner or later, there will be a nationwide vote on this issue, and I doubt the majority of the population will vote in favour of the replacement, whichever aircraft ends up being selected in the end.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 3):
One day ago: Some evaluation reports now say that the Gripen would be "worse" than the F/A-18C/D we now have. The minister of defense says he didn't know about these reports.

The thing is, the Gripen was never meant to be better than the F/A-18s that we have right now. They're being purchased to replace the completely outdated F-5s and not F/A-18s. When the intention of purchasing 22 Gripens was made public, it was also announced that while not being the superior aircraft, it offered a good price/performance ratio while still being adequate enough for its main mission profile, namely air policing duties. Also, one thing the media has conveniently ignored is the fact that the Swiss Air Force would be receiving an updated and enhanced version of the current Gripen.

My personal opinion, it seems like someone in politics, the evaluation committee or the air force couldn't live with the decision and has decided to launch a smear campaign via the media, therefore burying all chances for an F-5 Tiger replacement regardless of what aircraft is ultimately chosen.

I read this interesting article on the Swiss Natl. Television website (in German only):
http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...erreichbare?WT.zugang=ts_naweitere
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:37 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 10):
The Swiss Air Force pilots have always favoured the Eurofighter

I am confused now, as the swiss air force evaluation report clearly rank Rafale in the first place?

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf
Stephane
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 1:58 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 11):
I am confused now, as the swiss air force evaluation report clearly rank Rafale in the first place?

http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf

The Swiss Defense Minister together with high ranking generals are giving a press conference at the moment concerning this matter.

They've just said that they knew about this report all along and that it's four years old and outdated, especially since that report talks about the Gripen C/D and not the Gripen E/F that the Swiss Air Force would ordering. While the Rafale is without a doubt a good aircraft, hence why it came in first place, the Gripen E/F that the Swiss Air Force would would be receiving has the best price/performance ratio of all the three tested aircraft. It's not a matter of buying the best aircraft available, but the one that suits the Swiss Air Force's needs best while also taking into consideration all costs involved over the planned 30 year operational period.

While it's true that the flight testing was done with the Gripen C/D, the Swiss Air Force apparently made their own calculations and research with the information they received from Saab over the past three years since that report was published and have concluded that the Gripen is a good enough replacement for the aging F-5 Tiger fleet.
 
User avatar
SAS A340
Posts: 905
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 2:10 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 12):
that report talks about the Gripen C/D and not the Gripen E/F that the Swiss Air Force would ordering

I can confirm this from Swedish news also.

Quoting flagon (Reply 11):
I am confused

You are not the only one  
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 8:43 pm

Switzerland is willing to consider a new concrete offer from Dassault Aviation if the French aircraft manufacturer submits it as part of the tender for the renewal of its fighter jets , said Tuesday the Swiss Defence Minister.
"We asked the French group to submit a really practical offer," said Ueli Maurer at a conference Tuesday.

http://translate.google.fr/translate...-dassault.html

If Switzerland eventually selects the Rafale, the whole process will not look very professional I guess...
Stephane
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5493
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 9:20 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 1):
What has changed?

Sarkozy is also about to officially enter his presidential campaign, and since much of it will be based around finding ways to revive the local industry, I expect him to be in full foot-in-the-door salesman mode...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 7166
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Tue Feb 14, 2012 11:07 pm

Quoting flagon (Reply 14):
Switzerland is willing to consider a new concrete offer from Dassault Aviation if the French aircraft manufacturer submits it as part of the tender for the renewal of its fighter jets , said Tuesday the Swiss Defence Minister. "We asked the French group to submit a really practical offer,"

I think what the Swiss meant by this is that Dassault should formally tie its new, lower price offer with the same, or better offsets and tech transfer packages than their earlier, best and final proposal.


Quoting flagon (Reply 14):
If Switzerland eventually selects the Rafale, the whole process will not look very professional I guess...

It will certainly leave a bad taste, especially for the slighted.....seems par for the course for tenders, of late.

However, there's this little bit of news that may lift flagging spirits.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...ipen-to-replace-fighter-fleet.html

"Swiss stick with Sweden's Gripen to replace fighter fleet"

Sorry, subscription needed for the full monty. I wonder if a contrary version would appear shortly?   .


http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_Rafale-B_Brazil_Digicam_Concept_Dassault_lg.jpg
http://media.defenseindustrydaily.co...il_Digicam_Concept_Dassault_lg.jpg

Though admittedly, this image of a FAB-marked Rafale in digital jungle camo is very intriguing.  



[Edited 2012-02-14 15:39:22]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 6:28 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 11):
I am confused now, as the swiss air force evaluation report clearly rank Rafale in the first place?

so? Ever heard of politics?

What the pilots prefer doesn't matter. What the military as a whole prefers is largely irrelevant. What matters is who is offering the most "incentives" to the politicians making the final purchasing decision.

So the pilots prefer the Typhoon, the military leadership prefers the Gripen, but the minister of defense or the prime minister (whoever in Swiss politics is responsible for signing the contract) has been offered a well paying UN job after retirement by the Elisee, so Rafale gets chosen.

This is exactly what happened when the Dutch AF needed new helicopters. The pilots preferred the UH60, MoD preferred either the UH60 or the Merlin, but our PM got together with the French president for a nice one on one and the next day it was announced we'd be buying the Cougar. He got a nice cozy UN job upon retirement, having been sponsored for the position by the French government...
I wish I were flying
 
User avatar
SAS A340
Posts: 905
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:02 am

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 16):
"Swiss stick with Sweden's Gripen to replace fighter fleet"

Ueli maurer was in talks with the Swedish defense minister Sten tolgfors in tuesday and the short version of that conversation was that the Gripen still is the first hand choice.

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 16):
Though admittedly, this image of a FAB-marked Rafale in digital jungle camo is very intriguing.

I do agree withh you  
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
tommytoyz
Posts: 1195
Joined: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:08 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 7:43 am

For those who do not read German: The Swiss will stick with the SAAB. They claim it can do 90% of what the Rafale can do, and that's good enough. The English report in 2008 compared an earlier version of the SAAB without the upgrades for the Swiss.

To me the surprise is how low the F-18 performs, especially in range. But that's just me.

[Edited 2012-02-14 23:44:32]
 
User avatar
sebolino
Topic Author
Posts: 3582
Joined: Tue May 29, 2001 11:26 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:45 am

Quoting jwenting (Reply 17):
So the pilots prefer the Typhoon, the military leadership prefers the Gripen, but the minister of defense or the prime minister (whoever in Swiss politics is responsible for signing the contract) has been offered a well paying UN job after retirement by the Elisee, so Rafale gets chosen.

I think you're mixing things.
The Gripen has been selected, and as far as I understand the pilots prefer the Rafale.
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:57 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 20):
so? Ever heard of politics?

Off-course, but I was responding to the following comment:

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 10):
The Swiss Air Force pilots have always favoured the Eurofighter
Stephane
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 9:00 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 20):
and as far as I understand the pilots prefer the Rafale.

Which is also what Fernand Carrel (former swiss air force commander) seems to suggest in interview...
Stephane
 
aviationmaster
Posts: 2151
Joined: Thu Oct 28, 1999 3:47 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:20 am

Quoting sebolino (Reply 20):
The Gripen has been selected, and as far as I understand the pilots prefer the Rafale.

If you go asking around every single pilot of the Swiss Air Force about which of the three aircraft they'd prefer, you will end up with three answers. Most preferred the Eurofighter, some preferred the Rafale, while both are brilliant aircraft, they're also a total overkill for the typical F-5 Tiger mission profile.

In the end, it doesn't matter what the pilots would like to fly for ego reasons, it's what suits the Swiss Air Force's needs best and that's the Saab Gripen E/F.

Quoting flagon (Reply 14):
Switzerland is willing to consider a new concrete offer from Dassault Aviation if the French aircraft manufacturer submits it as part of the tender for the renewal of its fighter jets , said Tuesday the Swiss Defence Minister.

Two reasons for this:

a) Transparency reasons. The Swiss Air Force wants to show the voting public, who will most likely have the final say in this matter, that every single offer has been looked at.

b) Price. Looking at a new offer from Dassault may lead to SAAB lowering the price by a few millions.
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:16 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 23):
In the end, it doesn't matter what the pilots would like to fly for ego reasons, it's what suits the Swiss Air Force's

I don't think anybody disagrees with that

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 12):
that report talks about the Gripen C/D and not the Gripen E/F that the Swiss Air Force would ordering

The evaluation report which link is provided also covers phase 2 of the evaluation which "estimate the impact of NFA improvements scheduled with the delivered configuration in 2015 on the NFA effectiveness scored measured during flight tests 2008".
"SAAB has scheduled 98 upgrade items. (...) the proposed delivered version (...) equiped with new avionics and sensors (EASA radar, IRST)"
"Dassault (...) 18 upgrade items"
"EADS (...) 25 upgrade items"

And the conclusion is still the same: "The Gripen is still not able to compete with the other two candidates. It never reached the "Meet Minimum Expected Capabilities" in all type of missions."

That said with regards to Rafale and Eurofighter:

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 23):
they're also a total overkill for the typical F-5 Tiger mission profile

I agree.
Stephane
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 12:24 pm

Quoting aviationmaster (Reply 23):
Most preferred the Eurofighter

Extract from the same report:
"The Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in the accomplishment of all types of air-to-air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, the Rafale made the best impression to the pilots".
Stephane
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Wed Feb 15, 2012 2:34 pm

Quoting Devilfish (Reply 16):
"Swiss stick with Sweden's Gripen to replace fighter fleet"

Also reported in the link below
http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...stands-by-gripen-selection-368302/

Some extracts:

"Swiss defence minister Ueli Maurer has reaffirmed the nation's selection of the Saab Gripen E/F as the "optimal solution" to replace its air force fleet of Northrop F-5s."

"Maurer (...) said (...) the leaked report was an obsolete document from 2008."
That's obviously wrong, the report is dated November 2009 and covers not only the 2008 flight tests but also the phase 2 evaluation which takes account of the expected improvement of the three fighters, whilst still more or less leading to the same comclusions than those from phase 1 evaluation.

"Local reports suggest Dassault could table an improved Rafale offer in a bid to derail negotiations with Saab, although a formal proposal has yet to be made."
Stephane
 
flagon
Posts: 144
Joined: Fri May 18, 2007 2:34 am

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Thu Feb 16, 2012 8:01 am

This provides further explanation/justification for the eventual selection of the Gripen:

"Switzerland: Leaked report no longer relevant, says Saab

Eddy de la Motte, head of Gripen Export at Saab in Sweden, says a leaked report from 2009, which revealed that the Gripen fighter aircraft had failed all six test categories, is no longer relevant. The Swiss government has ordered 22 Gripen aircraft. He says Switzerland used a very tough assessment method which meant Gripen received relatively few points at the time, but the Swiss have since understood that Gripen offers the greatest development potential. He does not believe the leaked report has damaged Gripen's chances of winning the contract."
Stephane
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 5493
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

RE: Brazil, Switzerland ... Want The Rafale?

Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:00 am

Quoting flagon (Reply 27):
He says Switzerland used a very tough assessment method which meant Gripen received relatively few points at the time, but the Swiss have since understood that Gripen offers the greatest development potential.

That reminds me of another recent military RFP somewhere... 

That said, though, the Gripen is indeed the logical replacement for the F-5s and the ideal candidate for the Swiss AF. As much as I would have liked them to choose the Rafale, I think they made the right choice.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: mxaxai, RJMAZ and 14 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos