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kc135topboom
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Tue Nov 26, 2013 10:26 pm

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 49):
Tailboom can increase the so called lenght maybe

The length of the KC-46A is for the fuselage only. It does not include the air refueling boom in the stowed position. The KC-46A is 6.5' longer than the KC-767A/J or the B-767-200ER. The extra length is why Boeing has a separate designation for the airframe, the B-767-2C.
 
Aviaponcho
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:20 pm

All right

you seems to be 100% sure

Thanks

767-2C can stand for 767-200 convertible also (but...)
 
LPSHobby
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Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:49 pm

wow, good to know that the 767 program will survive for at least 10 more years !!!!
 
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747classic
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Thu Dec 26, 2013 10:22 am

Some propulsion parts for the first KC-46 at Spirit Aerosystems, December 10.



Original uploaded by Spirit Aerosystems, see : http://www.flickr.com/photos/spiritaero/11310774926/
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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bikerthai
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Thu Dec 26, 2013 7:53 pm

Quoting 747classic (Reply 53):

Other than the gray paint, the design still hasn't changed much since I saw it last, some 20 odd years ago . . . right down to the red silicone spray on insulation.   

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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747classic
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Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:33 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 54):
Other than the gray paint, the design still hasn't changed much since I saw it last, some 20 odd years ago . . . right down to the red silicone spray on insulation.

I know, but it's only for the record.
I would have preferred another pylon with a more modern engine, but we better leave that to the politicians.........
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
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kc135topboom
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Thu Dec 26, 2013 9:52 pm

Quoting aviaponcho (Reply 51):
767-2C can stand for 767-200 convertible also (but...)

No, the Boeing designation for the B-767-200 is a separate designation from the B-767-2. Boeing never build a B-767-200C. They only had the -200, -200ER and a converted freighter called the -200CF. The B-762s come with a MTOW of up to 395,000 lbs. The B-767-2C/KC-46A will have a MTOW of 415,000 lbs. The Boeing built KC-767A/Js for Italy and Japan have a MTOW of 395,000 lbs.
 
Viscount724
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Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:38 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 31):
The first KC-46A will fly initially as a B-767-2C in 2014, where it will get initial FAA approval for the B-787 avionics, body fuel tanks, cargo floor and door, etc. It will later go back into the assembly building for conversion to full KC-46 configuration. The second KC-46 will complete the B-767-2C STC with the FAA wile #1 is rebuilt. It will begin flying as a KC-46A in 2015.

I'm obviously wrong, but I was under the impression that aircraft intended for military purposes didn't need FAA certification. Why is this necessary for the KC-46? Is the P-8 also FAA-certified? What about the B-52 and KC-135 and every other U.S. military aircraft?
 
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bikerthai
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Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:36 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 57):
Why is this necessary for the KC-46? Is the P-8 also FAA-certified?

Being FAA certified just saves the USAF from performing the certification themselves (saves money) as the system that Boeing uses to certify a commercial airplane should be really efficient.

For the P-8A, I believe the plane that flies from Renton to Boeing Field is FAA certified. I'm not sure if the ones that gets delivered with all the mission system is FAA certified. Don't know if the FAA would ever certify a weapons system or aerial refueling systems.

bt
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KarelXWB
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Thu Jan 16, 2014 8:22 pm

Boeing Starts Assembly of Final KC-46A Test Aircraft:

http://boeing.mediaroom.com/Boeing-S...mbly-of-Final-KC-46A-Test-Aircraft
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kc135topboom
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Sat Jan 18, 2014 10:18 pm

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 57):
I was under the impression that aircraft intended for military purposes didn't need FAA certification. Why is this necessary for the KC-46? Is the P-8 also FAA-certified? What about the B-52 and KC-135 and every other U.S. military aircraft?

The B-52 and KC-135 never received an FAA Certification, they didn't need one. The first US Military aircraft to get an FAA Certification was the C-141A as Lockheed wanted to sell it as the L-300.

The second US Military airplane to receive an FAA Certification was the KC-10A.

The USAF wanted the certification to be able to use airline DC-10 parts around the world and vice-versa.

The A-330MRTT and A-400M also received a civilian certification.

But, you are correct, normally military aircraft do not need a civilian certification.

The certification needed for the KC-46 is not just for the tanker parts, but the B-767-2C is a new B-767 model and may have later civilian sales.

[Edited 2014-01-18 14:20:19]
 
INFINITI329
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:25 pm

If the USAF decides later that they want winglets on these birds will the wings ready to accept them or would modification be needed?
 
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kc135topboom
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Sun Jan 19, 2014 8:57 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 61):
If the USAF decides later that they want winglets on these birds will the wings ready to accept them or would modification be needed?

The wings are already strengthened to carry the WARPs, so they should accommodate winglets of whatever type are available then. Of course the USAF could add raked wingtips now and be done with it.
 
LPSHobby
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Mon Jan 20, 2014 1:56 am

Brazil will buy new tankers, they can be KC-46, A330s or old converted 767s, they are still to decide
 
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Stitch
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Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:02 pm

Quoting LPSHobby (Reply 63):
Brazil will buy new tankers, they can be KC-46, A330s or old converted 767s, they are still to decide.

Are these in addition to the two 767-300ER tanker conversions they ordered in March 2013 from IAI?
 
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kc135topboom
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Mon Jan 20, 2014 9:21 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 64):
Quoting LPSHobby (Reply 63):Brazil will buy new tankers, they can be KC-46, A330s or old converted 767s, they are still to decide.
Are these in addition to the two 767-300ER tanker conversions they ordered in March 2013 from IAI?

No, I think it is the same order, but I thought it was 4 aircraft.
 
LPSHobby
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Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:23 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 65):

in truth, this order is not decided yet, there are of Brazilian Air Force buying A330 for tankers and 1 for VIP transport
 
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KarelXWB
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Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:21 pm

The KC-46 tanker program is expected to see operational testing slip by at least 6 to 12 months, according to a U.S. Defense Department report due to be officially released on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...anker-report-idUSL2N0L309A20140129
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kc135topboom
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Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 67):
The KC-46 tanker program is expected to see operational testing slip by at least 6 to 12 months, according to a U.S. Defense Department report due to be officially released on Wednesday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...anker-report-idUSL2N0L309A20140129

All four SDD aircraft are now in various stages of assembly. Both Boeing and the Air Force say the KC-46A program is still on schedule, but that was an update I got last week.
 
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Stitch
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:56 pm

The gist I get from the article is not that the KC-46 airframes will be late, but that the USAF and Boeing will not be in a position to start operational testing even with available KC-46 airframes.
 
mffoda
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Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:54 pm

The Lexington Institute (Dr. Goure) has a piece explaining some production philosophy differences between different agencies like the DOT&E and AT&L. There is more info on the below link if your so inclined.


http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/bo...with-p-8-and-kc-46a?a=1&c=1171

Quoting from the article:

"Before the DOT&E reports cause concerns, consider the views of the Pentagon’s chief acquisition official, Undersecretary for Acquisition, Technology and Logistics (AT&L) Frank Kendall, on the P-8. According to Kendall, the P-8 is a “good product” and represents a “relatively successful program.” Why the disconnect between DOT&E and AT&L? Apparently, DOT&E didn’t bother reading the program plan for the P-8. Kendall responded to the DOT&E report in recent testimony before the House Armed Services Committee saying “the capabilities that the DOT&E report talked about not being there are underway. They’re coming. We’re going to move onto wider-area surveillance capabilities I think within a few years. So the aircraft actually is, I think, a relatively successful program despite the tone of that report.”

The DOT&E organization was intended to be an advisor to the Secretary of Defense to ensure that programs were able to demonstrate operational effectiveness in realistic testing. In recent years its role has morphed from protecting the welfare of our warriors to a roadblock to their receiving important new capabilities. The disagreement between DOT&E and AT&L on the P-8 has been repeated with other programs, notably the F-35. In both cases, DOT&E apparently doesn’t take into account that virtually all major defense programs involve the phased introduction of capabilities. The same is true for software. The F-35 program always intended to operate initially with a software system that was less complete that the full up version. Frankly, without a degree of concurrency in development and production the military would have to wait until the “gold standard” version of a platform was developed and tested before it could begin production. The Government Accountability Office recently reported significant improvement in the F-35 program; DOT&E continues to carp. Apparently, DOT&E doesn’t understand how defense production programs work."
harder than woodpecker lips...
 
Buckeyetech
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 2:10 pm

B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
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Revelation
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:38 pm

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 71):
The KC-46 officially has a name now.

Interesting!

The article goes on to say:

Quote:

The Air Force will buy 179 KC-46A Pegasus aircraft, the last of which will be delivered in 2028, to replace the Eisenhower-era KC-135 fleet. However, USAF will continue to maintain 200-plus KC-135s, which will be 65-years-old or older when the last Pegasus is delivered. As a result, the KC-Y and KC-Z follow on efforts have to be real programs, said Welsh. “And they have to get going now,” he emphasized.

Good luck with that, Gen. Walsh. I know he's just toting the party line, but still, it's amazing to ask for more planes at the same time that you are talking about taking perfectly good KC-10s out of service.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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ssteve
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:03 pm

Say 179 are delivered... why couldn't they fly every mission currently flown by the existing tanker fleet? I get the feeling the utilization of the existing fleet's not exactly high.
 
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Moose135
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 8:10 pm

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 71):
The KC-46 officially has a name now.

The real name will be whatever the crew dogs end up calling it. I don't imagine many will call it Pegasus...

Quoting Revelation (Reply 72):
it's amazing to ask for more planes at the same time that you are talking about taking perfectly good KC-10s out of service.

Because the incremental cost of more KC-46s is less than supporting an entire system in the KC-10.
KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
 
INFINITI329
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Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:51 pm

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 73):
Say 179 are delivered... why couldn't they fly every mission currently flown by the existing tanker fleet? I get the feeling the utilization of the existing fleet's not exactly high.

I think this is just a start off order. There are currently 415 KC-135s in the USAF's inventory. To include the guard and reserve. The KC-46 will carry alot more cargo than the Kc-135 can, so I see higher utilization rates.
 
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kanban
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 2:27 am

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 75):
I think this is just a start off order. There are currently 415 KC-135s in the USAF's inventory. To include the guard and reserve. The KC-46 will carry alot more cargo than the Kc-135 can, so I see higher utilization rates.

Except the Air Force isn't like a commercial carrier so utilization will remain "as required" which may be no more than today or even less.
 
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Revelation
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:05 pm

Quoting moose135 (Reply 74):
Because the incremental cost of more KC-46s is less than supporting an entire system in the KC-10.

Right, but the esteemed General is talking about adding two new systems, KC-Y and KC-Z, while other parts of his organization are grumbling they can't support the number of different systems they now have and in particular are talking about prematurely ending the life of KC-10 amongst others. Although most of us feel that it'll be KC-46 or nothing, the General seems to need to keep pushing the party line of three separate tanker replacement programs.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
11Bravo
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:39 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 77):
Right, but the esteemed General is talking about adding two new systems, KC-Y and KC-Z,

The esteemed General my have to settle for the following two programs:

KC-Y : 100 additional KC-46
KC-Z : 50 additional KC-46
WhaleJets Rule!
 
milestones787
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Sat Feb 22, 2014 8:17 pm

Are there any pictures of a completed plane having rolled out of Everett? How many have been rolled out? I haven't seen anything yet, but I have to assume that it's at least one by now if the 4th has already started final assembly. Thanks.
 
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Stitch
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Sun Feb 23, 2014 11:21 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 79):
Are there any pictures of a completed plane having rolled out of Everett? How many have been rolled out? I haven't seen anything yet, but I have to assume that it's at least one by now if the 4th has already started final assembly.

Evidently by "start" they mean they are doing build-up of sub-assemblies. The wings, tail and wing-body join are done in Building 40-33, adjacent to the FAL in 40-32.

So it sounds like #1 and #2 are in the two FAL positions right now and #3 and #4 are being built-up.

Janes has a relatively recent article on the progress at http://www.janes.com/article/32572/b...uild-on-final-kc-46a-test-aircraft
 
milestones787
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Mon Feb 24, 2014 3:32 am

Great, thanks for the info Stitch!
 
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bikerthai
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Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:35 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 79):

For what's it's worth, a photo in Boeing News Now shows the first frame in the FA bay with it's nose about 30 ft in front of the hangar door. Engines are on although the cowlings are off.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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kc135topboom
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Tue Feb 25, 2014 10:59 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 82):
For what's it's worth, a photo in Boeing News Now shows the first frame in the FA bay with it's nose about 30 ft in front of the hangar door. Engines are on although the cowlings are off.
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/Feature...ca_tanker_milestones_02_19_14.page

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/kc46a/kc46a.html
 
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bikerthai
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 2:16 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 83):

From the second video, there's a couple of lines (looks like rails) under the front fuselage after the front gear. Anyone knows what the purpose?

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Moose135
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 6:32 pm

Those are Pilot Director Lights - they help guide the receiver pilot while connected to the boom. The KC-135 and KC-10 have them as well.


You can see them on this KC135R:

http://www.moose135photography.com/Airplanes/Air-Shows/McGuire-AFB-Open-House-2012/i-Sh66FsG/0/XL/JM_2012_05_13_McGuire_KC-135R_62-3544_001-XL.jpg

[Edited 2014-02-26 10:35:54]
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Revelation
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Wed Feb 26, 2014 7:06 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 83):
http://www.boeing.com/boeing/Feature...ca_tanker_milestones_02_19_14.page

Hooray! It was a 'hat and t-shirt' day for the 767 team!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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kanban
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 6:26 am

Numbers 1 and 2 have completed FAL #1 is back getting test instrumentation, #2 moved to the mod center.. Pictures here http://paineairport.com/kpae10230.htm
 
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KarelXWB
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:12 am

I think you posted the wrong link, more pictures can be found here:

http://kpae.blogspot.com/2014/03/paine-field-march-17.html
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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747classic
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 10:01 am

Are the assigned line numbers for the first four 767-2C's 1065,66,67 and 1068 ?

Are the Boeing serial numbers already known ?

[Edited 2014-03-18 03:43:33]
Operating a twin over the ocean, you're always one engine failure from a total emergency.
 
milestones787
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:44 pm

I don't know if this question has already been asked, but will the KC-46 be getting any winglet device to increase range?
 
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kc135topboom
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Tue Mar 18, 2014 11:56 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 90):
I don't know if this question has already been asked, but will the KC-46 be getting any winglet device to increase range?

There are no current plans for blended winglets for the KC-46A. But later versions could have them, or even raked wingtips.

Quoting 747classic (Reply 89):
Are the assigned line numbers for the first four 767-2C's 1065,66,67 and 1068 ?

Are the Boeing serial numbers already known ?

It appears that is what has happened.
 
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kanban
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:05 am

Back during the original "lease" proposal, Boeing reserved 100 shipsets of winglets, however since then a lot has changed.
 
milestones787
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:00 am

Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the USAF to put winglets on these planes since they will be in service for a very long time and the cost savings are substantial?
 
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Stitch
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:09 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 93):
Wouldn't it be in the best interest of the USAF to put winglets on these planes since they will be in service for a very long time and the cost savings are substantial?

There may be some issues with interference with onboard sensors or wake vortex issues with receiving aircraft or trailing aircraft waiting to hook-up.

If they do add winglets, I would guess they would go with raked wingtips (ala the 767-400ER and P-8) as those seem to be better for longer missions.

[Edited 2014-03-19 08:10:51]
 
nomadd22
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:34 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):
If they do add winglets, I would guess they would go with raked wingtips (ala the 767-400ER and P-8) as those seem to be better for longer missions.

A lot of that depends on the speed and altitude of the missions. I never have seen a typical mission profile for these. But, if they spend most of the patrol low and slow, raked might not do much good.
Anon
 
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Revelation
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:59 pm

Quoting milestones787 (Reply 90):
I don't know if this question has already been asked, but will the KC-46 be getting any winglet device to increase range?

Yes. The straight forward answer is:

Quote:

“Based on the USAF refueling requirements, the missions were not of sufficient duration nor conducted at altitudes that optimize the benefits derived from winglets,” Boeing told Aviation Week.

Ref: http://blog.seattlepi.com/aerospace/...-wont-have-winglets-aviation-week/

Keep in mind Boeing was under extreme pressure to keep the price low, as IMHO they should be, and thus "optimize" means optimize with respect to price/performance not just absolute performance.

If you want to read a more dramatic rendition:

Shady Boeing: No Winglets On KC-46A (by AirRyan Apr 7 2011 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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kc135topboom
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Wed Mar 19, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 95):
Quoting Stitch (Reply 94):If they do add winglets, I would guess they would go with raked wingtips (ala the 767-400ER and P-8) as those seem to be better for longer missions.
A lot of that depends on the speed and altitude of the missions. I never have seen a typical mission profile for these. But, if they spend most of the patrol low and slow, raked might not do much good.

Well, the P-8A mission is often low and slow looking for submarines. Tankers, OTOH spend most of their time high and fast. There are exceptions for both the P-8 and the KC-46. But raked wingtips would be better, and provide a better reduction in drag than blended winglets/sharklets do.

Boeing currently has raked wingtips on all B-748s, B-764s, B-77F/L/Ws, as well as the P-8.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Mar 20, 2014 4:45 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 95):
A lot of that depends on the speed and altitude of the missions. I never have seen a typical mission profile for these. But, if they spend most of the patrol low and slow, raked might not do much good.

What about if its just hauling cargo?
 
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Revelation
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RE: KC-46 Production, Testing And Delivery

Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:41 pm

Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 98):
What about if its just hauling cargo?

This falls into the "missions were not of sufficient duration" clause of #96 above.

Sure, the winglets will save fuel, but these a/c do not fly anywhere near as much as do commercial a/c so the fuel savings is not as great. The winglets add cost, weight and maintenance issues. They only pay for themselves if the plane spends lots of time at cruise altitudes. The tankers just won't fly enough hours at cruise altitudes to save enough fuel to pay off the winglets. The competition (Mk.III) made it clear that the low cost bird would win the competition, and so, no winglets!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
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