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tommytoyz
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:41 am

Since it's probably going to happen very soon, I would like to open a discussion on how people think it will happen.

I personally think the opening salvos will come via cruise missiles, followed by any number of strike aircraft from Stand Off weapon carrying B- 52, B-1 and B-2 to smaller bombers penetrating closer in. Though even smaller planes like Rafale can carry cruise missiles as stand off weapons. The cruise missiles initially fired can be fired from NAVY ships and SUBS as well as from bombers. So there seems a lot of available options to a coalition force.

Syria has some very modern SAMS, but I don't think that will stop a coalition air campaign in any way. This can be interesting.

What do you all think?
 
bennett123
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:32 am

I think that we are heading for a re run of Libya.
 
chuchoteur
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:51 am

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 1):
I think that we are heading for a re run of Libya.

  

...with a more potent air defense system in place, and russian "advisors" helping to operate them...
 
oly720man
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:48 am

Quoting tommytoyz (Thread starter):
What do you all think?

There'll be some more holes in the ground, more dead people, more videos of grieving parents and vested interests blustering their vested stories and waving their vested flags.

Dropping more bombs on Syria will do nothing to change what's going on there apart from possibly forcing more Syrians to try and leave and adding another dimension to the rat's nest of power struggles in the area.

There will be no winners apart from those who seek more chaos.
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Nicoeddf
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:40 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
There will be no winners apart from those who seek more chaos.

Fully agreed.

And I detest the way, strikes on a sovereign nation are talked about like in a computer game, showing off all your modern equipment to teach "the bad" a lesson.
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Spacepope
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:25 pm

Quoting chuchoteur (Reply 2):
..with a more potent air defense system in place, and russian "advisors" helping to operate them...

Those air defense systems posed no serious problem the last 4 or 5 times Israel decided to strike. Why should this be any different?
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ThePointblank
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:38 pm

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
Those air defense systems posed no serious problem the last 4 or 5 times Israel decided to strike. Why should this be any different?

Indeed, and I would imagine that the US would be quietly chatting with their Israeli counterparts on that front to get valuable expertise and tips.

Based upon what is already in the Med, this is a quick ORBAT of what's already in the area:
USN assets:
USN Sixth Fleet:
USS Mahan (DDG-72) - Located in Eastern Mediterranean Sea
USS Ramage (DDG-61) - Located in Eastern Mediterranean Sea
USS Gravely (DDG-107) - Located in Eastern Mediterranean Sea
USS Barry (DDG-52) - Located in Eastern Mediterranean Sea

USN Fifth Fleet:
Carrier Strike Group Ten:
USS Harry S Truman (CVN-75) - Located in Red Sea

Attached air wing:
VMFA-312 :10 x F/A-18
VFA-105: 12 x F/A18 E
VFA-37: 11 x F/A-18C
VFA-32: 12 x F/A-18F
VAQ-130: 4 x EA-6B
VAW-126: 3 x E-2C
HSC-7: 8 x MH-60S
HSM-74: 7 x MH-60R

Escorts:
USS San Jacinto (CG-56) - Located in Red Sea
USS Gettysburg (CG-64) - Located in Red Sea
USS Bulkeley (DDG-84) - Located in Red Sea
USS Mason (DDG-87) - Located in Red Sea

Submarines: Unknown

RN assets:
HMS Illustrious (R06) - Located in Adriatic Sea
HMS Bulwark (L15) - Located in Adriatic Sea
HMS Westminister (F237) - Located in Adriatic Sea
HMS Montrose (F236) - Located in Adriatic Sea
6 RFA vessels
1 SSN (not named)
All ships currently deployed on Exercise Cougar 13 off the coast of Albania

Marine Nationale:
Charles de Gaulle (R91) - Located in Toulon, France
+ escorts

Probable targets:
Syrian Air Force infrastructure (runways, ATC, hangars, fuel depots, maintenance facilities)
Syrian Air Force aircraft on the ground
Syrian Army vehicle depots
Command and control nodes and equipment
Fixed Syrian Air Defence systems
Syrian Navy vessels
Syrian government installations and buildings
Presidential and Tishreen Palace
 
rfields5421
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:06 am

Quoting Spacepope (Reply 5):
Why should this be any different?

Because Israel attacks without warning or any advance political posturing. The attacks are single sortie raids before the air defenses can be brought to high readiness standby.

This is very different because the world is broadcasting near when and where the attacks will some. So the Syrians will have full opportunity to prepare the defenses for the best result.

Heck - after school today my 11 year old grandson was explaining how the raid would happen - time of day, cruise missiles to kick off the raid, follow up attacks. After 20 years in the Navy I have to say he was pretty much spot on. And all the information he picked up from public news channels in the US.

Certainly the Syrians have the intelligence capacity to watch Fox News and CNN. They will probably get first warning of the cruise missiles being fired from Fox before their early warning system picks up the inbounds.

Cruise missiles will do well, but if we start sending manned aircraft across the borders - we will likely lose a few planes - and some pilots KIA and possibly some captured by various forces in the Syrian civil war. Getting them back will be problematic - requiring boots on the ground raids by special forces.

Another difference is ingress and egress routes. Our planes will not be able to come in over Israel or Jordan. Nor is it likely they could use Iraq or Turkey for staging. That leaves coming in over Lebanon. And we might see some advanced SAMs launched from Lebanese soil.

[Edited 2013-08-28 18:22:28]
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11Bravo
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:59 am

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
Another difference is ingress and egress routes. Our planes will not be able to come in over Israel or Jordan. Nor is it likely they could use Iraq or Turkey for staging. That leaves coming in over Lebanon. And we might see some advanced SAMs launched from Lebanese soil.

I suspect all ingress/egress routes are possible. I think every country you listed will either give permission or look the other way. I would be very surprised to see anyone in Lebanon shoot at US/Allied air units. I think any active search or fire control radar in Syria will have a very short and violent life. The first time a radar in Lebanon lights up a US aircraft we will see severe jamming and inbound HARMs within seconds.

The US military's stand-off ability has been significantly upgraded in recent years. While Syria's Integrated Air Defense System is much more formidable than what we saw in Libya, I think their air defense assets will become un-integrated in very short order. The Syrian AF will be destroyed within 24 hours. Any SAM site that so much as turns on a light bulb will be toast. In two days the Syrians will be down to local control optical AAA and a few MANPADS.
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yyzala
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:37 am

Will be very interesting to see how the Pantsir fares against cruise missiles and air units if it survives the initial onslaught.

Unlike Libya, Syria has a much higher number of SAMs that are upgraded and overlapping each other. If Syria is as easy as Libya, the airstrikes would have happened much earlier.
 
bennett123
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:57 am

I find it notable that so many are effectively indicating regime change.

afaik, that is not official poicy yet.
 
Nicoeddf
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:29 am

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 8):
The first time a radar in Lebanon lights up a US aircraft we will see severe jamming and inbound HARMs within seconds.

Yeah, why even acknowledge the rights of Lebanon to decide who's going to overfly it...just because you can...

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 8):
I think their air defense assets will become un-integrated in very short order. The Syrian AF will be destroyed within 24 hours. Any SAM site that so much as turns on a light bulb will be toast.

I am not even saying you are wrong...but the warmongering arrogance is unbearable...
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:57 am

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
Dropping more bombs on Syria will do nothing to change what's going on there apart from possibly forcing more Syrians to try and leave and adding another dimension to the rat's nest of power struggles in the area.

I don't know. I can imagine that a lot of those air defenses probably weren't as fully manned as they now are, so I imagine it's putting stress on Assad's regime. If there are major strikes, I'm sure the Assad regime will be weakened. So I think things can/will be changed by major strikes, but it's not at all clear what will happen when Assad eventually falls.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 3):
There will be no winners apart from those who seek more chaos.

And those who sell munitions.
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bennett123
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:37 am

Given the threat that Syria has always posed to Israel, I have no doubt that developments are being viewed with interest by Israel.

Be interesting to know what they are doing whilst attention is elsewhere.

Also they would likely regard a weakened Syria as a good thing, long term.
 
oly720man
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:10 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 13):
Also they would likely regard a weakened Syria as a good thing,

A weakened Syria leaves a hole for extremists to occupy and Israel doesn't really want any more of those on another part of its borders. A while ago, it was suggested that Israel wasn't looking for any serious attacks on Syria to overthrow Assad because of who, or what, may come after.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
And those who sell munitions.

Yes, and there is no shortage of those.
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 1:50 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):
And we might see some advanced SAMs launched from Lebanese soil.

Flights over Lebanon is possible, but may not be selected for political reason. There are enough air corridors from Turkey and Saudi (at the Jordanian and Iraqi border) to handle the traffic.

Reports have stated that US trained (led?) rebels have begun moving in to Syria from Jordan, so this would give the Air Crew some support if they were to fly in from the south.


Finally, even if the Lebanese do have advanced SAMs they would probably not use them on US overflight as they would prefer to save them for the Israelis. And certain part of Lebanon are Sunni and would be more receptive to US overflights.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 8):
The Syrian AF will be destroyed within 24 hours.

The Syrian AF is is already highly degraded as they have spent 1-2 years now trying to drop bombs on the rebellion and getting them shot down or rendered unusable on the ground.


Like it or not, the fuse have already been lit in Syria, It's time to find best solution end game. I for one do not believe letting the civil war go on for another 2-3 . . . 10 years will be any better. It's time to pick a side . . . and apparently we have chosen our side.

bt
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rfields5421
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:04 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 8):
The first time a radar in Lebanon lights up a US aircraft we will see severe jamming and inbound HARMs within seconds.
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 15):
even if the Lebanese do have advanced SAMs they would probably not use them on US overflight

I do not think the Lebanese Armed Forces would attempt to bring down overflying aircraft.

However, the Lebanese government does not control all of that country. There are parts of the nation under the control of Islamic terrorist organizations - some with full support of the Syrian and Iranian goverments - who would love to surprise any US military aircraft. They might well have been provided with very advanced SAMs.

Quoting oly720man (Reply 14):
A weakened Syria leaves a hole for extremists to occupy and Israel doesn't really want any more of those on another part of its borders.

Destroying the government in Syria would turn the nation into another faction filled multi-sided civil war - and a haven for even more terrorists.

Today almost everyone in Syria is somewhat united against the current government leadership. However, I seriously doubt any of the multiple factions would be able to establish a stable government after the downfall of Assad.

I expect Syria to be as torn by factional violence, similar to Iraq and Afghanistan, for at least the next 10 years - maybe longer.

Even an attact - which I believe will occur in the pre-dawn hours this Sunday local Syria time - will strengthen Assad as it will unite more extremists in the battle against the Great Satan.
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sovietjet
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 3:56 pm

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 6):
USN Fifth Fleet:
Carrier Strike Group Ten:
USS Harry S Truman (CVN-75) - Located in Red Sea

Attached air wing:
VMFA-312 :10 x F/A-18
VFA-105: 12 x F/A18 E
VFA-37: 11 x F/A-18C
VFA-32: 12 x F/A-18F
VAQ-130: 4 x EA-6B
VAW-126: 3 x E-2C
HSC-7: 8 x MH-60S
HSM-74: 7 x MH-60R

I thought the Truman was delayed due to sequestration? When did they deploy? Also VAQ-130 flies EA-18G now.
 
11Bravo
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:10 pm

Quoting nicoeddf (Reply 11):
I am not even saying you are wrong...but the warmongering arrogance is unbearable...

Really? I don't think that's a very fair reaction to my comment. I don't even think we should take action against Syria, but I believe we will. The decision to enter into a conflict is a purely political one. My comments were about the mechanics and REALITY of what will occur if military action is taken.

If the Syrian people want to have a civil war, I don't care. If the Syrian government wants to use chemical weapons on it's own citizenry, I don't care. Obviously the people of the Middle East in general have some pathological predisposition to support autocratic governments. There are almost always very serious downsides to that choice. Let them kill each other. It's their choice. I don't care.
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curlyheadboy
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 4:46 pm

Quoting yyzala (Reply 9):
The US military's stand-off ability has been significantly upgraded in recent years. While Syria's Integrated Air Defense System is much more formidable than what we saw in Libya, I think their air defense assets will become un-integrated in very short order. The Syrian AF will be destroyed within 24 hours. Any SAM site that so much as turns on a light bulb will be toast. In two days the Syrians will be down to local control optical AAA and a few MANPADS.

I think they will keep all their radars off, hide all the assets they can hide, brace for the damage and maybe try some lucky shots. This is just going to be a "punishment" for the gassing of those folks the other week, they will hide and wait for the thing to be over, like Saddam did during Desert Fox.
My 2 cents.
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magyar
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:54 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 18):
If the Syrian people want to have a civil war, I don't care. If the Syrian government wants to use chemical weapons on it's own citizenry, I don't care. Obviously the people of the Middle East in general have some pathological predisposition to support autocratic governments. There are almost always very serious downsides to that choice. Let them kill each other. It's their choice. I don't care.

I would not argue with you if I was sure that "it is their choice". I do not doubt that there were a lot of tension under the surface in the arab societies but I have my doubts about the spontaneity of this so called "arab spring".
 
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 5:55 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
will strengthen Assad as it will unite more extremists in the battle against the Great Satan

If you are afraid that after Assad falls, the Sunni extremists will focus their attention on Us, then you may have a point. But to say that all the Islamic extremist both Sunni and Shia will unite against the west seems to go against current reality.

Blood have been spilled by both Sunni and Shia from Lebanon to Iran. That feud will go on a few more years (decades) even after Assad falls. They will have more to settle with each other before they look to the US.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 18):
Let them kill each other. It's their choice. I don't care.

Which is kind of sad. As we should care. Whether or not we want to put our blood or money on the line to resolve the situation would be a different matter. But we still should care, both from a humanitarian stand point and from a geopolitical stand point. (As our Saudi and Qatari friends have their own Sunni-Shia issues)

Also from a religious stand point don't many biblical prediction of Armageddon focused on the middle east, and any major conflict around Israel may lead to the second coming wouldn't it?   

bt
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ThePointblank
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:17 pm

Quoting sovietjet (Reply 17):

I thought the Truman was delayed due to sequestration? When did they deploy? Also VAQ-130 flies EA-18G now.

Truman's deployment was delayed, but she left departed Norfolk Naval Base in July for her deployment. She's currently reported as being in the Arabian Sea now.

Also in the area, with her deployment extended is USS Nimitz in the Indian Ocean.
 
11Bravo
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:04 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 21):
Which is kind of sad.

It is completely and absolutely sad. It seems to me though that most, if not all, Middle Eastern countries just go from one bad government to another. Actions have consequences, and I don't think anyone in the Middle East truly understands that. If, as a people, you choose to support various dictators, theocrats, and monarchies then that will almost certainly end up being a bad idea. As long as they don't want me to live that way, and as long as they don't threaten me and my family's safety, go for it. Do what you want.

I will refrain from further comment regarding the causes and political situation in this thread. The purpose of this sub-forum is to discuss the possible military consequences of the situation.
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chuchoteur
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:15 pm

Quoting curlyheadboy (Reply 19):
I think they will keep all their radars off, hide all the assets they can hide, brace for the damage and maybe try some lucky shots. This is just going to be a "punishment" for the gassing of those folks the other week, they will hide and wait for the thing to be over, like Saddam did during Desert Fox.
My 2 cents.

news has it that they relocated and buried all their command and control structure.
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:20 pm

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 23):
Middle Eastern countries just go from one bad government to another.

One last political comment before I too will desist.

True democracy does not happen over night. The US have had 200 years practice and that is still a work in progress. Give the Middle East time, they will get there . . .

Remember all the talk about how Libya would turn out? Well, it have not been smooth going for them, but they are trudging along in the right direction, however slowly:   

As for the air strikes:

Well, people keep on saying that air power alone does not win war. You need boots on the ground. Well, "we" have boots on the ground . . . they are rebels, Jihadist or not, like it or not . . .

bt
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cargotanker
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:33 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 25):
True democracy does not happen over night. The US have had 200 years practice and that is still a work in progress. Give the Middle East time, they will get there . . .

You seem to assume that Western Democracy is the natural path and destination for all nations and all mankind? I would disagree, I don't think democracy is compatible with Islam.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 25):
Well, people keep on saying that air power alone does not win war. You need boots on the ground. Well, "we" have boots on the ground . . . they are rebels, Jihadist or not, like it or not . . .

Yes, but they aren't "our" boots on the ground and we have no indications that these "rebels" will coordinate with us for any sort of military advantage. The only thing we have in common with these rebels is the same enemy. At least in Libya we had hopes/delusions of a friendly government emerging after the fighting. Not so with Syria.
 
bennett123
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:45 pm

On the BBC News, there was a reference to 6 Typhoon fighters, (configured for Air to Air) had been deployed to Cyprus.

However, there have been little further info.
 
11Bravo
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 7:58 pm

Quoting bennett123 (Reply 27):
On the BBC News, there was a reference to 6 Typhoon fighters, (configured for Air to Air) had been deployed to Cyprus.

That is the kind of move I would expect to see more of. US and Allied forces will seek to surge Air-to-Air assets into the theater prior to any manned strikes. Job number one is to secure the air space over Syria and destroy the Syrian AF. My guess is that Syrian pilots will refuse to sortie if faced with F-22s, F-15s, and Typhoons. They are aware that they would just be shooting practice. For some time now Syrian pilots and commanders have realized they cannot be effective against the IDF. This will be no different.
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bennett123
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Thu Aug 29, 2013 8:08 pm

www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/2...hoon-jets-cyprus-syria-retaliation

The thrust seems to be that the purpose is protective, rather that seeking aerial superiority over Syria.

At present, Parliament is not even debating offensive action.
 
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Dano1977
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:44 pm

Well it looks like the USA and "others" will have to go it alone.


Just reported on the BBC

British MPs have voted against possible military action against Syria to deter the use of chemical weapons.

David Cameron said it was clear the British Parliament does not want action and "I will act accordingly".

The government motion was defeated 285 to 272, a majority of 13 votes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23892783#TWEET872505
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Spacepope
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 9:47 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
However, the Lebanese government does not control all of that country. There are parts of the nation under the control of Islamic terrorist organizations - some with full support of the Syrian and Iranian goverments - who would love to surprise any US military aircraft. They might well have been provided with very advanced SAMs.

It's doubtful that Hezbollah has anything other than MANPADs, which are no threat to aircraft at altitude. Syria attempted to send Buk M-1s to them earlier this year and Israel destroyed that convoy. Israel would not stand for Hezzie SAM systems, and we can be sure they do not posses them.
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:12 pm

Quoting cargotanker (Reply 26):
The only thing we have in common with these rebels is the same enemy. At least in Libya we had hopes/delusions of a friendly government emerging after the fighting. Not so with Syria.

Worked for us in WWII with Russia, why not now?

There is one thing common between Syria and Libya: The general populous themselves are not radical. Most of the radical elements are foreigners. Unless the jihadis can radicalize the local populous, there is a chance that Syria can be saved. Unfortunately, unlike Libya where oil money can support the population and keep it from being restless, there is not no oil money to re-build Syria.

bt
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:17 pm

If you look at the map and predict the most likely targets would be around Damascus, you can see that the safest and shortest route in would be through northern Israel and Rebel held southern Syria. Should have good military airports in Israel for any wounded birds also.

bt
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:21 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
I expect Syria to be as torn by factional violence, similar to Iraq and Afghanistan, for at least the next 10 years - maybe longer.

We all would prefer factional violence to all out civil war. Heck, Northern Ireland endured fractional violence (though not on the same scale) for decades, but now there is peace. Hope is eternal.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
ThePointblank
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Thu Aug 29, 2013 11:17 pm

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 30):
Well it looks like the USA and "others" will have to go it alone.


Just reported on the BBC

British MPs have voted against possible military action against Syria to deter the use of chemical weapons.

David Cameron said it was clear the British Parliament does not want action and "I will act accordingly".

The government motion was defeated 285 to 272, a majority of 13 votes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politic...72505

It was doubtful that the British could offer anything significant. Realistically, there were two options; long range strike from the UK with Tornado's armed with cruise missiles, and submarine launched Tomahawk's from their sub in the Med.

Even with this vote, the British can find a way to support the Americans; for example, redeploying ships to free up American ships so they can head over, or providing logistics and support. Outright combat is however, out of the question.
 
solarflyer22
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:38 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 35):
Outright combat is however, out of the question.

That's just for the immediate future. If more evidence comes out there could be another vote.

Quoting 11Bravo (Reply 28):
F-22s, F-15s, and Typhoons.

Considering the IAF manhandled them in the 80's they'd have to be crazy. They could flee to Iran or Iraq.

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
I do not think the Lebanese Armed Forces would attempt to bring down overflying aircraft.

Ditto.

I don't think you'll see much more than a Tomahawk barrage. Maybe some long range shots from b-52s or B1/B2s. I don't think the air defenses are that great but they are saying its a punitive strike not a no-fly zone or decapitation strike. If you take down the air defense network you might as well do a no fly zone as well at that point.

Plus its expensive. Its like 1.2 mill a missile I think.
 
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Dano1977
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Fri Aug 30, 2013 7:57 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 35):
It was doubtful that the British could offer anything significant. Realistically, there were two options; long range strike from the UK with Tornado's armed with cruise missiles, and submarine launched Tomahawk's from their sub in the Med.

I'm no military expert.

Instead of long range strikes from the UK with Tornadoes, surely it would be logistically easier to have them based them at RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus?

The Typhoons deployed their could of flown CAP.

It's all irrelevant now, Parliament has spoken.
The average EU official - he has the organising ability of the Italians, the flexibility of the Germans and the modesty of the French. And that's topped up by the imagination of the Belgians, the generosity of the Dutch.
 
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bikerthai
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Fri Aug 30, 2013 1:12 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 36):

I don't think you'll see much more than a Tomahawk barrage. Maybe some long range shots from b-52s or B1/B2s.

Long range missile strikes are most effective against known fixed targets. They would not be as effective against mobile SAMs and Command Centers.

For a punitive response, then the missile strike would be appropriate. But if you want a more comprehensive degradation of the Syrian Air Forces, you'll need to have planes over head. Drones and stealth may be sufficient.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
dtw2hyd
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Fri Aug 30, 2013 3:44 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 36):
Plus its expensive. Its like 1.2 mill a missile I think.

Tomahawks are expensive, but if they have a bunch need to refurbished because they reached end of shelf life, better to use. I think Raytheon charges 1 Mil a pop to refurbish vs 1.45 Mil maximum for new one. Ones they are over operation gets expensive.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Mortyman
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:34 am

Russian ex officer says Syria has the capabilities to shoot Down US missiles With it's S-300 system

- The Syrian defense "may well be in possession of" the highly advanced Russian anti-aircraft system S-300, a system that allows President Bashar al-Assad's military able to shoot down even American cruise missiles.

In Norwegian:

http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/ur...raketter-7295892.html#.UiHAjEg4Vpg
 
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par13del
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 12:00 pm

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 36):
I don't think you'll see much more than a Tomahawk barrage.

In my opinion this is the best option for the US, it lets the government know that they are willing to do something, it gives moral courage / support to the rebels - all of them - and it puts no personnel at risk.
The country is used to high security levels, one can expect extremist aligned with Iran to attempt some revenge attacks. The big Al Q may give them a break since the strikes are supporting them, but on the other hand, they are what they are so....

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 36):
Plus its expensive. Its like 1.2 mill a missile I think.

Yes, but that is still cheaper than having a manned a/c go down and the crew or members of the rescue party killed or captured.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 38):
For a punitive response, then the missile strike would be appropriate. But if you want a more comprehensive degradation of the Syrian Air Forces, you'll need to have planes over head.

If we look at the attack in military terms, degrading Syria air defenses assist the troops on the ground how, at present a/c are hardly being used.
If they go after the arty sites, then you need persistent a/c coverage over the country to hit them as they appear, no one is supporting that option.

So for political effect one can hit a few communications centers, political building - say party HQ etc. - and a few military barracks. Everyone gets to claim victory, moral outrage while the actual casualties are few.

Once done, the UN can release its report and the international community can start debating economic and trade sanctions, in the meantime on the ground in Syria, ...............
 
MadameConcorde
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 3:20 pm

Is Damascus airport still open to incoming/outgoing civilian air traffic as of now?

I suspect they would close the airport traffic if they expected air strikes?

       
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
MadameConcorde
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:41 pm

I am updating my own post.

 

Some unusual activity at Syrian airports:

All flights at Damascus airport have been grounded.

State of alert at Latakia airport. All flights cancelled. Order received to urgently evacuate the airport from citizens for security reasons.

Unusual activity at Mezzeh airport. All anti-aircraft units have begun to deploy and planes have been brought out to the runways.

http://rotter.net/forum/scoops1/46473.shtml

http://translate.google.com/translat...um%2Fscoops1%2F46473.shtml&act=url

        
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
oly720man
Posts: 5813
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 6:49 pm

Just checked and RB516 from DXB to DAM has got as far as Baghdad before turning sharp left, heading 091 at FL330 - with all caveats about the accuracy of FR24 data in that neck of the woods. The tracks are are too straight, for me, after heading towards DAM then heading NNW over Saudi Arabia.

http://www.flightradar24.com/SYR516

SYR441 and SYR1375 went the same way earlier, SYR1375 heading towards THR if you wait long enough on the replay.

http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-08-31/17:45/12x/SYR441
http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-08-31/18:02/12x/SYR1375

They must be clearing out in anticipation of the worst.

[Edited 2013-08-31 11:57:31]
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
oly720man
Posts: 5813
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:00 pm

Also going east, YK-ATD, IL76

http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-08-31/19:21/12x/Y

and YK-ATA as RB61

http://www.flightradar24.com/2013-08-31/19:03/12x/SYR61

Are Syrian aircraft banned from Turkish airspace at all? Just wondering since the earlier SYR441 to Moscow VKO would have gone more or less due north to get there.
wheat and dairy can screw up your brain
 
bennett123
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 10:36 pm

YK-ATA is also an IL76.
 
rfields5421
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:33 pm

With the announcement that the President will wait until the Congress returns on Sept 9 before making a final decision - any strikes are off for two weeks, at least.
Not all who wander are lost.
 
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par13del
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sat Aug 31, 2013 11:48 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 47):
With the announcement that the President will wait until the Congress returns on Sept 9 before making a final decision - any strikes are off for two weeks, at least.

Honestly I'm hoping the US does nothing, sure would like to see the billions of dollars worth or military equipment purchased by countries put to use, hard to fathom the the elder Bush was the last to get a large working group together.
Arab league time to step up and help your people, can't only be a people to oppose the west.
 
rutankrd
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Potential Syrian Air Strikes, Details?

Sun Sep 01, 2013 2:43 am

That delay will also help Cammers in Westminster, allow the UN to scrutinise the inspectors finding and allow an alliance of the good to move more resources into place.

Cammers can build a bridge and effective dossier to present to parliament based on IT and the UN findings a further re-call at end of next week and be ready to participate.

The UN case must be clear and evidential that the Assad agents are responsible.

The simple evidence of the atrocities without clear fingering is not acceptable.

In ten days UK French and US forces in the med will be present in numbers.

IMO this delay is tactical as well as political .

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