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art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 5:17 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
The Brazilian Air Force has a requirement for 108 Gripens, to be delivered in three batches, finances changes over time, but a second batch is very likely for another 36. They would also be the provider of the Gripen in case of any sales to another customer in South America.


Thanks. Do you know the planned capacity of the Sao Paulo FAL? And will any export orders be supplied by slots for FAB being re-allocated for export?
 
Ozair
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 08, 2020 11:53 pm

art wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
The Brazilian Air Force has a requirement for 108 Gripens, to be delivered in three batches, finances changes over time, but a second batch is very likely for another 36. They would also be the provider of the Gripen in case of any sales to another customer in South America.


Thanks. Do you know the planned capacity of the Sao Paulo FAL? And will any export orders be supplied by slots for FAB being re-allocated for export?


I’m far less confident on Brazil getting 108 Gripens as I stated in reply #45.

The FAL capacity isn’t huge, I believe the original plan was to have 15 Brazil assembled Gripens out of the 36 total ordered, including all F models, but not sure if that plan has changed. I can’t see any exports to South America either, not exactly a long list of nations that both want new fighter jets and have decent relations with Brazil but even if they did given how long it would take to select and then build the aircraft I expect the line would be reasonably free for deliveries.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:54 am

Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.
 
SuperiorPilotMe
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:23 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if the 108 number was a result of political pressure from SAAB and the Swedish government. 36 fighters is a very small number to justify a production run of, especially when almost half of that number won't even be assembled in your country.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:07 am

PPVRA wrote:
Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.

Brazil couldn't even afford to maintain and operate their previous fighter, the Mirage 2000, which they bought used from the French. They only lasted in service for less than 7 years in service.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jul 15, 2020 2:04 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.

Brazil couldn't even afford to maintain and operate their previous fighter, the Mirage 2000, which they bought used from the French. They only lasted in service for less than 7 years in service.


Those planes were bought only as a stop-gap measure between retiring the even older mirage 3s and receiving the Gripen. Alas, with the delays, even those planes ended up being retired before the Gripen arrived.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:00 am

PPVRA wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.

Brazil couldn't even afford to maintain and operate their previous fighter, the Mirage 2000, which they bought used from the French. They only lasted in service for less than 7 years in service.


Those planes were bought only as a stop-gap measure between retiring the even older mirage 3s and receiving the Gripen. Alas, with the delays, even those planes ended up being retired before the Gripen arrived.

They bought the ex-French ones because they were dithering so much on a formal purchase of new Mirage 2000's due to funding issues.

Even then, they retired the jets just before the maintenance contract was up. If Brazil had the money to continue to operate the Mirage 2000's, they would have extended the contract, and be still operating the jets while they waited on Gripen.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:40 am

As a simple calculation, if Brazil is to produce about 15 aircraft by 2024 ie in about 2.5 years, then the FAL can handle at least 6 per annum. Assuming initial frames will take longer to build than later ones due to the learning process, the FAL could produce at a higher rate.

Setting up an FAL, producing some aircraft then allowing it to idle for lack of orders is an expensive exercise. Surely a further order is necessary in the near future to keep the FAL and supply chains busy, even if that order is only for a small number. Ordering another dozen to stabilise the supply chain and FAL would make sense to me.

True, you need a budget to do that but you would need a bigger budget if the production process were disrupted.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sat Aug 29, 2020 11:14 am

 
texl1649
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Mon Aug 31, 2020 10:34 am

This seems to be the main Gripen update thread so I’ll just post it here, Saab’s package offer to Finland;

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... -bid_11910

Sounds similar to what they offered for Brazil.
 
Ozair
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 22, 2020 12:19 am

First Gripen has arrived in Brazil although was shipped in and not flown from Sweden. Will be officially handed over in late October and will be conducting additional test flights until more Gripens arrive in late 2021.

First Brazilian Gripen arrives in-country

The first Saab Gripen E for Brazil arrived in-country on 20 September, having been shipped from Norrköping in Sweden.

As previously reported by Janes , this first Gripen E is a flight test instrumentation (FTI) aircraft (serial number FAB4100) that has been flying in Sweden since August 2019.

Now in Brazil, FAB4100 will undergo further testing at the Gripen Flight Test Center (GFTC) in Gavião Peixoto, São Paulo, before being officially presented to the country at the air force’s Aviator Day event in Brasília on 23 October.

...

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... in-country
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 22, 2020 7:21 am

Ozair wrote:
First Gripen has arrived in Brazil although was shipped in and not flown from Sweden. Will be officially handed over in late October and will be conducting additional test flights until more Gripens arrive in late 2021.


Another year before Brazil receives another Gripen E? Why so long? Perhaps one aircraft suffices for testing purposes?
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 22, 2020 2:38 pm

A very short video of the unloading here.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfvY--P5pEc
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Sep 22, 2020 4:09 pm

 
 
pampa14
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First flight of the F-39 Gripen in Brazil

Fri Sep 25, 2020 12:15 pm

Hello everyone,

Yesterday was a historic day for the Brazilian Air Force. The first Gripen E fighter intended for Brazil made its first flight. Here in this link you will find an extensive and complete article about it with tons of photos, diagrams, infographics and much more. It is worth visiting and reading.

http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com/2020/09/f-39e-gripen-uma-nova-era-para-fab-tem.html


Image

Image
 
texl1649
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Re: First flight of the F-39 Gripen in Brazil

Fri Sep 25, 2020 1:04 pm

It was funny that they shipped it over in what looked like the cargo ship/container used for Godzilla.
 
Ozair
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Re: First flight of the F-39 Gripen in Brazil

Fri Sep 25, 2020 11:07 pm

texl1649 wrote:
It was funny that they shipped it over in what looked like the cargo ship/container used for Godzilla.

Yeah an interesting decision. I guess flying just one aircraft over would have been a significant cost and it appears they didn't want to remove the wings and fly it over in an AN-124.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 26, 2020 11:00 am

Does anyone have any idea about:

- progress in designing/building the 2 seat F verson

- the delivery schedule for further E aircraft to Brazilian soil

- when Brazilian Air Force will introduce Gripen E into service
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:19 pm

art wrote:
Does anyone have any idea about:

- progress in designing/building the 2 seat F version


To answer my own question, here is an update from SAAB on the F version...

https://www.saab.com/newsroom/stories/2 ... soderstrom
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Fri Oct 23, 2020 12:07 pm

Saab will insource some work on its Gripen E/F fighter programme from undisclosed suppliers who are struggling to maintain services through the coronavirus-driven downturn, and has announced a potentially SKr1.5 billion ($170 million) impact on its Aeronautics business unit.

Detailing the developments during a third-quarter results call on 19 October, Saab chief executive Micael Johansson stressed that the supply chain measure was being taken to protect the company’s long-term production schedule for the Swedish air force and export customer Brazil.


https://www.flightglobal.com/defence/sa ... 98.article
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:03 pm

Looks like Brazil is set for the second batch of Gripen E.
https://www.airway1.com/brazil-wants-mo ... E3cdi5diYQ
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 06, 2021 7:15 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Looks like Brazil is set for the second batch of Gripen E.
https://www.airway1.com/brazil-wants-mo ... E3cdi5diYQ


I'm biased as a Swede but... Excellent news everyone!

I wonder if Brazil will endeavour to develop a naval variant at some point with SAAB. They're currently "between aircraft carriers" but seem likely to get another at some point. Of course, by that time a Gripen NG derivative might no longer be suited. One can only hope there might be an opportunity for Sweden and Brazil to co-develop the Flygsystem 2020 if that's the case. It's true Sweden has been betrothed to Turkey for it, but I think it goes without saying that a western democracy shouldn't be cooperating with a quasi-dictatorship sliding towards Putin for a key security asset. So long as Bolsonaro doesn't do anything radical in that sphere I would much prefer Brazil as partner.
 
Nean1
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Mon Jun 07, 2021 7:51 pm

Leovinus wrote:
SAS A340 wrote:
Looks like Brazil is set for the second batch of Gripen E.
https://www.airway1.com/brazil-wants-mo ... E3cdi5diYQ


I'm biased as a Swede but... Excellent news everyone!

I wonder if Brazil will endeavour to develop a naval variant at some point with SAAB. They're currently "between aircraft carriers" but seem likely to get another at some point. Of course, by that time a Gripen NG derivative might no longer be suited. One can only hope there might be an opportunity for Sweden and Brazil to co-develop the Flygsystem 2020 if that's the case. It's true Sweden has been betrothed to Turkey for it, but I think it goes without saying that a western democracy shouldn't be cooperating with a quasi-dictatorship sliding towards Putin for a key security asset. So long as Bolsonaro doesn't do anything radical in that sphere I would much prefer Brazil as partner.


Good afternoon Leovinus,

There doesn't seem to be a minimal chance of an shipped version of Grippen for the Brazilian Navy. In fact, important defense programs like the submarines, the KC-390, corvettes are somewhat delayed and under severe budget constraint. The Air Force seems to intend to place a complementary order, ie a second batch, so that the number of 70 first-line fighters is reached (the current order is for 36 Grippen E/F fighters). But the time is not ripe for these ads.
Navalized fighters will require an aircraft carrier, which does not exist, which will require a fleet to protect it. An imminently offensive weapon for a country with no offensive military tradition. It just won't happen.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 08, 2021 11:31 am

Nean1 wrote:
There doesn't seem to be a minimal chance of an shipped version of Grippen for the Brazilian Navy. In fact, important defense programs like the submarines, the KC-390, corvettes are somewhat delayed and under severe budget constraint. The Air Force seems to intend to place a complementary order, ie a second batch, so that the number of 70 first-line fighters is reached (the current order is for 36 Grippen E/F fighters). But the time is not ripe for these ads.
Navalized fighters will require an aircraft carrier, which does not exist, which will require a fleet to protect it. An imminently offensive weapon for a country with no offensive military tradition. It just won't happen.


What did the Sao Paulo actually do in the sense of where did it go where a carrier was needed to get aircraft there and what did it do when it got there?

I imagine that a CATOBAR carrier would be needed for Gripen N. A cheaper carrier with F-35B would be more likely, wouldn't it? Of course, if the Brazilian economy booms in the 2020's, a lot more funds could become available.

PS If anyone knows, how many Gripen E are flying now? And what is planned production rate?
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:04 pm

art wrote:
What did the Sao Paulo actually do in the sense of where did it go where a carrier was needed to get aircraft there and what did it do when it got there?


Basically nothing.
Training and repairs and... That's it!

I imagine that a CATOBAR carrier would be needed for Gripen N. A cheaper carrier with F-35B would be more likely, wouldn't it? Of course, if the Brazilian economy booms in the 2020's, a lot more funds could become available.


They already have one, the Atlantic (former HMS Ocean) , which is an helicopter carrier they bought from the UK in 2018. But I don't think they would ever need the F35B, their geopolitical environment is very different from the US' ou Europeans'
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 08, 2021 5:39 pm

Naincompetent wrote:
art wrote:
What did the Sao Paulo actually do in the sense of where did it go where a carrier was needed to get aircraft there and what did it do when it got there?


Basically nothing.
Training and repairs and... That's it!

I imagine that a CATOBAR carrier would be needed for Gripen N. A cheaper carrier with F-35B would be more likely, wouldn't it? Of course, if the Brazilian economy booms in the 2020's, a lot more funds could become available.


They already have one, the Atlantic (former HMS Ocean) , which is an helicopter carrier they bought from the UK in 2018. But I don't think they would ever need the F35B, their geopolitical environment is very different from the US' ou Europeans'


I'm obviously guessing. But Brazil, being the largest economy of South America, would probably want a carrier for symbolic reasons. Carriers are more of a diplomatic tool than anything else. But as you mention I'm not sure such a need stretches far enough to warrant F35s.

Thinking about it, and the procurement times for carriers, I'm not sure a navalised Gripen would make sense in that time scale either.
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Jun 08, 2021 9:38 pm

The other thing is that Brazil does not have sufficient shipbuilding capabilities to build an aircraft carrier by itself. The case of the Sao Paulo/Foch was some kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. France was getting a new one and didn't know what to do of the old one... Basically, there aren't any large aircraft carriers on the market and no-one is going to build you one.
Regarding an helicopter carrier, getting one is much simpler. Firstly they already got one and secondly, they could probability buy one off the shelf from the French, the Spanish. If it's good enough for the Brits, the Aussies, the Japs , the Spaniards, Italian... it's probably good enough for Brazil too!
 
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Leovinus
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Jun 09, 2021 6:14 am

Naincompetent wrote:
The other thing is that Brazil does not have sufficient shipbuilding capabilities to build an aircraft carrier by itself. The case of the Sao Paulo/Foch was some kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. France was getting a new one and didn't know what to do of the old one... Basically, there aren't any large aircraft carriers on the market and no-one is going to build you one.
Regarding an helicopter carrier, getting one is much simpler. Firstly they already got one and secondly, they could probability buy one off the shelf from the French, the Spanish. If it's good enough for the Brits, the Aussies, the Japs , the Spaniards, Italian... it's probably good enough for Brazil too!


Quite true. What you're saying is that we need... a VTOL Gripen. I'm all for it!

Joking of course, but thinking about it it would be awesome if Sweden made a tiny and economical VTOL hehe
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:55 pm

 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 11:37 am

Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:37 pm

ZeroOne wrote:
Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you

Gripen E has flown hundred plus test flights now and not once has SAAB claimed it has supercruised. Plenty of claims it can in the marketing material but no press release. From a company not afraid to blow their own trumpet that should tell you something.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 12:55 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
ZeroOne wrote:
Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you

Gripen E has flown hundred plus test flights now and not once has SAAB claimed it has supercruised. Plenty of claims it can in the marketing material but no press release. From a company not afraid to blow their own trumpet that should tell you something.


'Supercruise' in popular usage is a pretty vague term, it seems to me. An aircraft with a light fuel load, carrying no weapons and sustaining M1+ without afterburner is supercruising. Is there actually some agreed minimum standard for real world supercruise performance? eg max internal fuel, 4 x A2A missile load etc
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 2:44 pm

Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.

I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 5:32 pm

ZeroOne wrote:
Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.

I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this


This witten about Gripen (C, I presume) would suggest that Gripen E should be able to fly supersonically without afterburner:

F-16 has a higher TWR [thrust to weight ratio], but one need to consider drag and wing loading too. The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM’s two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag.


https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former- ... -aircraft/

PS I have not been following but wonder when the first Brazilia-built Gripen E will roll out.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 9:21 pm

art wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
ZeroOne wrote:
Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you

Gripen E has flown hundred plus test flights now and not once has SAAB claimed it has supercruised. Plenty of claims it can in the marketing material but no press release. From a company not afraid to blow their own trumpet that should tell you something.


'Supercruise' in popular usage is a pretty vague term, it seems to me. An aircraft with a light fuel load, carrying no weapons and sustaining M1+ without afterburner is supercruising. Is there actually some agreed minimum standard for real world supercruise performance? eg max internal fuel, 4 x A2A missile load etc

LM may own a lot but they don't own the definition of supercruise, why make it more confusing than it needs to be. If an aircraft is able to cruise above M1 without afterburner then it supercruises.

ZeroOne wrote:
Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.

I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this

ZeroOneTwoThree, no press release about supercruise. A press release about supersonic back in 2017 but nothing about supercruise.

art wrote:
ZeroOne wrote:
Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.

I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this


This witten about Gripen (C, I presume) would suggest that Gripen E should be able to fly supersonically without afterburner:

F-16 has a higher TWR [thrust to weight ratio], but one need to consider drag and wing loading too. The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM’s two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag.


https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former- ... -aircraft/

PS I have not been following but wonder when the first Brazilia-built Gripen E will roll out.

There is no lack for Saab saying the E can but doesn't say it has. There are 50 plus press releases about Gripen E since supersonic flight in 2017 but none say the airframe supercruised.

I would ignore the puff piece as well, full of rubbish references and single examples while ignoring many others.
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Tue Aug 31, 2021 10:27 pm

I see, Supercruise is actually not fixed capability. A lot of the teen series fighters have some supercruise claims at certain conditions.

For example in this interview a former Hornet pilot says that in certain conditions the A model bug can do it. https://youtu.be/y-a-CL8ClX8

I also personally know a Viper pilot who said that in a cold day with 2 wingtip sidewinders and a centerline tank, they can maintain around Mach 1.1 with no AB.

The F-35A also once had a story of maintaining Mach 1.2 with no or minimal AB.

But I think the reason why the manufacturers refuse to call these aircraft Supercruise capable is because they know the capability is too dependent on conditions. (Certain altitudes, cold weather, very little or no load out)

The fact that Saab maintains that the Gripen E is Supercruise capable might suggest that they are confident in capability of the aircraft to Supercruise in a wide set of altitudes, load out configurations or scenarios. Because if it can't, it may tarnish their reputation in their claims.

Hopefully it can, I think the Gripen E is a solid competitor in the lightweight fighter market, competing against the F-16V, J-10C, Tejas, JF-17 etc.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 2:26 am

ZeroOne wrote:
I see, Supercruise is actually not fixed capability. A lot of the teen series fighters have some supercruise claims at certain conditions.

For example in this interview a former Hornet pilot says that in certain conditions the A model bug can do it. https://youtu.be/y-a-CL8ClX8

I also personally know a Viper pilot who said that in a cold day with 2 wingtip sidewinders and a centerline tank, they can maintain around Mach 1.1 with no AB.

The F-35A also once had a story of maintaining Mach 1.2 with no or minimal AB.

But I think the reason why the manufacturers refuse to call these aircraft Supercruise capable is because they know the capability is too dependent on conditions. (Certain altitudes, cold weather, very little or no load out)

The fact that Saab maintains that the Gripen E is Supercruise capable might suggest that they are confident in capability of the aircraft to Supercruise in a wide set of altitudes, load out configurations or scenarios. Because if it can't, it may tarnish their reputation in their claims.

Hopefully it can, I think the Gripen E is a solid competitor in the lightweight fighter market, competing against the F-16V, J-10C, Tejas, JF-17 etc.

Why are you getting caught up with supercruise definition. Faster than M1 without afterburner is all it is, no one cares how you get past M1, sustaining is all that matters. Supercruise existed for the EE Lightning and the F-106 and probably F-104 and other turbojet aircraft, it is just marketing wank these days.

Whether Saab are confident in the capability is immaterial to the fact they haven't said it did it. Until they do then it is just academic and more marketing wank.

Saab need to sell more Gripens for it to be a solid competitor. With only Brazil as a customer for the E and no one else in sight, anyone who thinks Finland will choose Gripen is deluded, it isn't competing against F-16V. India may want to export Tejas but who would want a piece of that mess right now, maybe ten years from now... JF-17 has all of ten or 15 exports. No export of J-10 either. All of those aircraft are probably cheaper than Gripen anyway so if cost is the determiner then Gripen loses. If you have the option to buy J-10 or Gripen/F-16V you are in the the US or China power match so it is a political decision and not on based on whether Gripen can supercruise.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:23 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Saab need to sell more Gripens for it to be a solid competitor. With only Brazil as a customer for the E and no one else in sight, anyone who thinks Finland will choose Gripen is deluded, it isn't competing against F-16V. India may want to export Tejas but who would want a piece of that mess right now, maybe ten years from now... JF-17 has all of ten or 15 exports. No export of J-10 either. All of those aircraft are probably cheaper than Gripen anyway so if cost is the determiner then Gripen loses. If you have the option to buy J-10 or Gripen/F-16V you are in the the US or China power match so it is a political decision and not on based on whether Gripen can supercruise.


In terms of sales often being political in nature, does Brazilian Gripen E have an advantage where South American countries are concerned? IIRC a few South American countries fly 3rd generation light fighters which can't go on forever.
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:24 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Why are you getting caught up with supercruise definition. Faster than M1 without afterburner is all it is, no one cares how you get past M1, sustaining is all that matters..


I think all supercruising aircraft (Concorde included) go through Mach 1 with AB and simply maintain supersonic in dry thrust, so getting to Mach 1 with AB isn't really my concern, since everyone does that.

I was curious about the tactical utility of Gripen's supercruise. As I posted above, a lot of aircraft can technically supercruise in the right conditions with very light loads. But when a manufacturer labels an aircraft as Supercruise capable, then that means that the supercruise envelope is large enough to be used in many scenarios, so I was wondering if some of those scenarios have been reported.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Sep 01, 2021 10:20 pm

art wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Saab need to sell more Gripens for it to be a solid competitor. With only Brazil as a customer for the E and no one else in sight, anyone who thinks Finland will choose Gripen is deluded, it isn't competing against F-16V. India may want to export Tejas but who would want a piece of that mess right now, maybe ten years from now... JF-17 has all of ten or 15 exports. No export of J-10 either. All of those aircraft are probably cheaper than Gripen anyway so if cost is the determiner then Gripen loses. If you have the option to buy J-10 or Gripen/F-16V you are in the the US or China power match so it is a political decision and not on based on whether Gripen can supercruise.


In terms of sales often being political in nature, does Brazilian Gripen E have an advantage where South American countries are concerned? IIRC a few South American countries fly 3rd generation light fighters which can't go on forever.

Not a lot of money for jets and not a lot of threat to have a need for modern jets. Chile seems happy with F-16 with recent deliveries, Argentina and Venezuela are obviously out for obvious reasons and Peru buys from everyone, has no money and been smashed by Covid.
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 02, 2021 12:54 am

ZeroOne wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Why are you getting caught up with supercruise definition. Faster than M1 without afterburner is all it is, no one cares how you get past M1, sustaining is all that matters..


I think all supercruising aircraft (Concorde included) go through Mach 1 with AB and simply maintain supersonic in dry thrust, so getting to Mach 1 with AB isn't really my concern, since everyone does that.

I was curious about the tactical utility of Gripen's supercruise. As I posted above, a lot of aircraft can technically supercruise in the right conditions with very light loads. But when a manufacturer labels an aircraft as Supercruise capable, then that means that the supercruise envelope is large enough to be used in many scenarios, so I was wondering if some of those scenarios have been reported.

Not not all supercruise aircraft have to cross M1 in AB but again how they get past M1 doesn't matter!

Supercruise is reasonably useless, F-22 standard profile only has small uses of supercruise. Supercruise still uses more fuel than subsonic flight and so gripen use of supercruise would be constrained by its small fuel fraction. Perhaps for a Swedish point defense mission it might be useful if it could do it but jury is still out on whether it can.

This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange. The C had poor export totals, the E looking no better and even though Saab keeps saying hundreds of exports no one has any idea who are going to buy them all.
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:55 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:

Supercruise is reasonably useless, F-22 standard profile only has small uses of supercruise.


Not at all, watch this interview with F-22 pilot Lt. Col. Terry Scott as he explains what a world of difference Supercruise has over their intercept tactics.
https://youtu.be/AguVV7SH9eY

The difference between cruising at .8 mach and 1.5 mach is so great that the bandit simply can't react.
-Lt. Col Terry Scott


SeamanBeaumont wrote:
This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..


Thats okay, the Gripen thread is made for people who are interested in this aircraft and want a place to talk about it
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:55 am

Alright, not here to argue, I just wanted to learn more about it so I asked around. Thanks
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:10 pm

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..


It's a bit strange that you find it strange that people on a Gripen E news and Discussion thread, are doing discussions about the Gripen E.

I for one learned a lot in the few post that I read here. If the Gripen isn't your interest, then why click on this thread.
 
BestIntellect
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:24 pm

ZeroOne wrote:
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..


It's a bit strange that you find it strange that people on a Gripen E news and Discussion thread, are doing discussions about the Gripen E.

I for one learned a lot in the few post that I read here. If the Gripen isn't your interest, then why click on this thread.


ZeroOne wrote:
Alright, not here to argue, I just wanted to learn more about it so I asked around. Thanks


Yeah, welcome to the message boards of Airliners.net.
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:58 pm

BestIntellect wrote:

Yeah, welcome to the message boards of Airliners.net.


He had another post full of personal attacks that was removed by admins. Thats why I seem to have 3 post in a row
 
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SeamanBeaumont
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sat Sep 04, 2021 9:39 pm

ZeroOne wrote:
BestIntellect wrote:

Yeah, welcome to the message boards of Airliners.net.


He had another post full of personal attacks that was removed by admins. Thats why I seem to have 3 post in a row

Ha ha sorry zero, not full of personal attacks, one simple statement that someone apparently didn't find kosher enough.

My point still stands. You came here and asked a series of very specific questions trying to get the zero approved answer you wanted compared to the other forum where you were confronted with the facts you didn't like.

The thread is news and discussion about the Gripen. That includes discussing the good and bad of the aircraft including the facts such as no gripen E supercruise despite the Saab marketing fluff.

This is a red pill or blue pill moment...
 
ZeroOne
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Sun Sep 05, 2021 12:57 am

SeamanBeaumont wrote:
you came here and asked a series of very specific questions trying to get the zero approved answer you wanted compared to the other forum where you were confronted with the facts you didn't like.
.

I'm not trying to get an answer that I want, I'm just trying to get an answer period. I actually didn't know that the Gripen C can supercruise as well before Art posted his response.

The answer I got here is that the Gripen E can allegedly supercruise but has yet to publish actually achieving such claims and I accept it, no problem, I'm not going to push that the Gripen E can supercruise if it hasn't yet. But I'm not going to take it as evidence that it can't as well.

Its not the facts that I didn't like from the other forum, it was how the discussion devolved into a name calling contest. Can we not do that here, can we just discuss topics about the Gripen in this Gripen thread.
 
art
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Re: Brazil Gripen E News and Discussion Thread

Wed Nov 17, 2021 10:26 am

...the company is getting set to present Brazil’s next four Gripens later this month, as they near production completion in Linkoping. Its first export buyer for the Brazilian-designated F-39 received a lead test example in 2020. The milestone will be followed by the shipment of the aircraft in pairs: respectively scheduled before year-end and early in 2022.

Sweden’s next two Gripen Es also should be handed over before the end of 2021, Johansson says.

Between them, Sweden and Brazil have ordered 96 aircraft, with production due to gather pace from 2023.


https://www.flightglobal.com/dubai-2021 ... 72.article

The first F-39 was delivered by sea. I wonder if the four scheduled for delivery in the next two or three months will actually fly there. Sweden-Spain-west Africa-Brazil is possible, I guess.

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