Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
SAS A340 wrote:The Brazilian Air Force has a requirement for 108 Gripens, to be delivered in three batches, finances changes over time, but a second batch is very likely for another 36. They would also be the provider of the Gripen in case of any sales to another customer in South America.
art wrote:SAS A340 wrote:The Brazilian Air Force has a requirement for 108 Gripens, to be delivered in three batches, finances changes over time, but a second batch is very likely for another 36. They would also be the provider of the Gripen in case of any sales to another customer in South America.
Thanks. Do you know the planned capacity of the Sao Paulo FAL? And will any export orders be supplied by slots for FAB being re-allocated for export?
PPVRA wrote:Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.
ThePointblank wrote:PPVRA wrote:Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.
Brazil couldn't even afford to maintain and operate their previous fighter, the Mirage 2000, which they bought used from the French. They only lasted in service for less than 7 years in service.
PPVRA wrote:ThePointblank wrote:PPVRA wrote:Getting to 108 will take a decade, assuming it happens. We can't afford a huge wave of deliveries. Especially after this pandemic. But I don't see getting to 108 as out of the realm of possibility despite the short-medium term financial outlook.
Brazil couldn't even afford to maintain and operate their previous fighter, the Mirage 2000, which they bought used from the French. They only lasted in service for less than 7 years in service.
Those planes were bought only as a stop-gap measure between retiring the even older mirage 3s and receiving the Gripen. Alas, with the delays, even those planes ended up being retired before the Gripen arrived.
The first Saab Gripen E for Brazil arrived in-country on 20 September, having been shipped from Norrköping in Sweden.
As previously reported by Janes , this first Gripen E is a flight test instrumentation (FTI) aircraft (serial number FAB4100) that has been flying in Sweden since August 2019.
Now in Brazil, FAB4100 will undergo further testing at the Gripen Flight Test Center (GFTC) in Gavião Peixoto, São Paulo, before being officially presented to the country at the air force’s Aviator Day event in Brasília on 23 October.
...
Ozair wrote:First Gripen has arrived in Brazil although was shipped in and not flown from Sweden. Will be officially handed over in late October and will be conducting additional test flights until more Gripens arrive in late 2021.
texl1649 wrote:It was funny that they shipped it over in what looked like the cargo ship/container used for Godzilla.
art wrote:Does anyone have any idea about:
- progress in designing/building the 2 seat F version
Saab will insource some work on its Gripen E/F fighter programme from undisclosed suppliers who are struggling to maintain services through the coronavirus-driven downturn, and has announced a potentially SKr1.5 billion ($170 million) impact on its Aeronautics business unit.
Detailing the developments during a third-quarter results call on 19 October, Saab chief executive Micael Johansson stressed that the supply chain measure was being taken to protect the company’s long-term production schedule for the Swedish air force and export customer Brazil.
SAS A340 wrote:Looks like Brazil is set for the second batch of Gripen E.
https://www.airway1.com/brazil-wants-mo ... E3cdi5diYQ
Leovinus wrote:SAS A340 wrote:Looks like Brazil is set for the second batch of Gripen E.
https://www.airway1.com/brazil-wants-mo ... E3cdi5diYQ
I'm biased as a Swede but... Excellent news everyone!
I wonder if Brazil will endeavour to develop a naval variant at some point with SAAB. They're currently "between aircraft carriers" but seem likely to get another at some point. Of course, by that time a Gripen NG derivative might no longer be suited. One can only hope there might be an opportunity for Sweden and Brazil to co-develop the Flygsystem 2020 if that's the case. It's true Sweden has been betrothed to Turkey for it, but I think it goes without saying that a western democracy shouldn't be cooperating with a quasi-dictatorship sliding towards Putin for a key security asset. So long as Bolsonaro doesn't do anything radical in that sphere I would much prefer Brazil as partner.
Nean1 wrote:There doesn't seem to be a minimal chance of an shipped version of Grippen for the Brazilian Navy. In fact, important defense programs like the submarines, the KC-390, corvettes are somewhat delayed and under severe budget constraint. The Air Force seems to intend to place a complementary order, ie a second batch, so that the number of 70 first-line fighters is reached (the current order is for 36 Grippen E/F fighters). But the time is not ripe for these ads.
Navalized fighters will require an aircraft carrier, which does not exist, which will require a fleet to protect it. An imminently offensive weapon for a country with no offensive military tradition. It just won't happen.
art wrote:What did the Sao Paulo actually do in the sense of where did it go where a carrier was needed to get aircraft there and what did it do when it got there?
I imagine that a CATOBAR carrier would be needed for Gripen N. A cheaper carrier with F-35B would be more likely, wouldn't it? Of course, if the Brazilian economy booms in the 2020's, a lot more funds could become available.
Naincompetent wrote:art wrote:What did the Sao Paulo actually do in the sense of where did it go where a carrier was needed to get aircraft there and what did it do when it got there?
Basically nothing.
Training and repairs and... That's it!I imagine that a CATOBAR carrier would be needed for Gripen N. A cheaper carrier with F-35B would be more likely, wouldn't it? Of course, if the Brazilian economy booms in the 2020's, a lot more funds could become available.
They already have one, the Atlantic (former HMS Ocean) , which is an helicopter carrier they bought from the UK in 2018. But I don't think they would ever need the F35B, their geopolitical environment is very different from the US' ou Europeans'
Naincompetent wrote:The other thing is that Brazil does not have sufficient shipbuilding capabilities to build an aircraft carrier by itself. The case of the Sao Paulo/Foch was some kind of a once in a lifetime opportunity. France was getting a new one and didn't know what to do of the old one... Basically, there aren't any large aircraft carriers on the market and no-one is going to build you one.
Regarding an helicopter carrier, getting one is much simpler. Firstly they already got one and secondly, they could probability buy one off the shelf from the French, the Spanish. If it's good enough for the Brits, the Aussies, the Japs , the Spaniards, Italian... it's probably good enough for Brazil too!
ZeroOne wrote:Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you
SeamanBeaumont wrote:ZeroOne wrote:Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you
Gripen E has flown hundred plus test flights now and not once has SAAB claimed it has supercruised. Plenty of claims it can in the marketing material but no press release. From a company not afraid to blow their own trumpet that should tell you something.
ZeroOne wrote:Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.
I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this
F-16 has a higher TWR [thrust to weight ratio], but one need to consider drag and wing loading too. The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM’s two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag.
art wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:ZeroOne wrote:Hello all, may I ask if there are more details regarding the Gripen E's supercruise capability. So far the most concrete evidence of this was when the demo aircraft achieved Mach 1.2 in 2009, but if I'm not mistaken, that was a Gripen D, I believe the E is a bit more different. Thank you
Gripen E has flown hundred plus test flights now and not once has SAAB claimed it has supercruised. Plenty of claims it can in the marketing material but no press release. From a company not afraid to blow their own trumpet that should tell you something.
'Supercruise' in popular usage is a pretty vague term, it seems to me. An aircraft with a light fuel load, carrying no weapons and sustaining M1+ without afterburner is supercruising. Is there actually some agreed minimum standard for real world supercruise performance? eg max internal fuel, 4 x A2A missile load etc
ZeroOne wrote:Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.
I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this
art wrote:ZeroOne wrote:Yes for Lockheed, Supercruise requirement for the ATF program is at least Mach 1.5, but since then a lot of aircraft have claimed a lower level of Supercruise, I think Typhoon says Mach 1.4, Rafale says Mach 1.3, Gripen Demo aircraft (modified Gripen D) claimed Mach 1.2 back in 2009.
I was wondering if the actual Gripen E has reportedly demonstrated this
This witten about Gripen (C, I presume) would suggest that Gripen E should be able to fly supersonically without afterburner:F-16 has a higher TWR [thrust to weight ratio], but one need to consider drag and wing loading too. The Gripen has much lower drag. And far lower wing loading. It can reach supersonic speeds on dry thrust while carrying a full armament of four AMRAAM’s two Sidewinders and an external fuel tank. Even though the Gripen lacks the TWR of the F-16 it can nearly match it in climb rate thanks to low drag.
https://theaviationgeekclub.com/former- ... -aircraft/
PS I have not been following but wonder when the first Brazilia-built Gripen E will roll out.
ZeroOne wrote:I see, Supercruise is actually not fixed capability. A lot of the teen series fighters have some supercruise claims at certain conditions.
For example in this interview a former Hornet pilot says that in certain conditions the A model bug can do it. https://youtu.be/y-a-CL8ClX8
I also personally know a Viper pilot who said that in a cold day with 2 wingtip sidewinders and a centerline tank, they can maintain around Mach 1.1 with no AB.
The F-35A also once had a story of maintaining Mach 1.2 with no or minimal AB.
But I think the reason why the manufacturers refuse to call these aircraft Supercruise capable is because they know the capability is too dependent on conditions. (Certain altitudes, cold weather, very little or no load out)
The fact that Saab maintains that the Gripen E is Supercruise capable might suggest that they are confident in capability of the aircraft to Supercruise in a wide set of altitudes, load out configurations or scenarios. Because if it can't, it may tarnish their reputation in their claims.
Hopefully it can, I think the Gripen E is a solid competitor in the lightweight fighter market, competing against the F-16V, J-10C, Tejas, JF-17 etc.
SeamanBeaumont wrote:Saab need to sell more Gripens for it to be a solid competitor. With only Brazil as a customer for the E and no one else in sight, anyone who thinks Finland will choose Gripen is deluded, it isn't competing against F-16V. India may want to export Tejas but who would want a piece of that mess right now, maybe ten years from now... JF-17 has all of ten or 15 exports. No export of J-10 either. All of those aircraft are probably cheaper than Gripen anyway so if cost is the determiner then Gripen loses. If you have the option to buy J-10 or Gripen/F-16V you are in the the US or China power match so it is a political decision and not on based on whether Gripen can supercruise.
SeamanBeaumont wrote:Why are you getting caught up with supercruise definition. Faster than M1 without afterburner is all it is, no one cares how you get past M1, sustaining is all that matters..
art wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:Saab need to sell more Gripens for it to be a solid competitor. With only Brazil as a customer for the E and no one else in sight, anyone who thinks Finland will choose Gripen is deluded, it isn't competing against F-16V. India may want to export Tejas but who would want a piece of that mess right now, maybe ten years from now... JF-17 has all of ten or 15 exports. No export of J-10 either. All of those aircraft are probably cheaper than Gripen anyway so if cost is the determiner then Gripen loses. If you have the option to buy J-10 or Gripen/F-16V you are in the the US or China power match so it is a political decision and not on based on whether Gripen can supercruise.
In terms of sales often being political in nature, does Brazilian Gripen E have an advantage where South American countries are concerned? IIRC a few South American countries fly 3rd generation light fighters which can't go on forever.
ZeroOne wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:Why are you getting caught up with supercruise definition. Faster than M1 without afterburner is all it is, no one cares how you get past M1, sustaining is all that matters..
I think all supercruising aircraft (Concorde included) go through Mach 1 with AB and simply maintain supersonic in dry thrust, so getting to Mach 1 with AB isn't really my concern, since everyone does that.
I was curious about the tactical utility of Gripen's supercruise. As I posted above, a lot of aircraft can technically supercruise in the right conditions with very light loads. But when a manufacturer labels an aircraft as Supercruise capable, then that means that the supercruise envelope is large enough to be used in many scenarios, so I was wondering if some of those scenarios have been reported.
SeamanBeaumont wrote:
Supercruise is reasonably useless, F-22 standard profile only has small uses of supercruise.
The difference between cruising at .8 mach and 1.5 mach is so great that the bandit simply can't react.
-Lt. Col Terry Scott
SeamanBeaumont wrote:This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..
SeamanBeaumont wrote:This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..
ZeroOne wrote:SeamanBeaumont wrote:This fascination with a niche fighter that won't sell 200 copies is strange..
It's a bit strange that you find it strange that people on a Gripen E news and Discussion thread, are doing discussions about the Gripen E.
I for one learned a lot in the few post that I read here. If the Gripen isn't your interest, then why click on this thread.
ZeroOne wrote:Alright, not here to argue, I just wanted to learn more about it so I asked around. Thanks
BestIntellect wrote:
Yeah, welcome to the message boards of Airliners.net.
ZeroOne wrote:BestIntellect wrote:
Yeah, welcome to the message boards of Airliners.net.
He had another post full of personal attacks that was removed by admins. Thats why I seem to have 3 post in a row
SeamanBeaumont wrote:you came here and asked a series of very specific questions trying to get the zero approved answer you wanted compared to the other forum where you were confronted with the facts you didn't like.
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...the company is getting set to present Brazil’s next four Gripens later this month, as they near production completion in Linkoping. Its first export buyer for the Brazilian-designated F-39 received a lead test example in 2020. The milestone will be followed by the shipment of the aircraft in pairs: respectively scheduled before year-end and early in 2022.
Sweden’s next two Gripen Es also should be handed over before the end of 2021, Johansson says.
Between them, Sweden and Brazil have ordered 96 aircraft, with production due to gather pace from 2023.
