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kanban
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Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Tue Apr 15, 2014 11:42 pm

Received an email with this link
http://www.alternatewars.com/Bomb_Loading/Bomb_Guide.htm

interesting to see the early bombs and the method for loading the Enola Gay
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:37 am

Yes, they have been around for a few years now.
 
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cjg225
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 12:49 am

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for posting. I had never seen those before. Definitely very important pieces of history that only a few hardcore history buffs may find interesting...
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flyingturtle
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 9:04 am

I found them very interesting. Years ago, I read lots about nuclear weapons, nuclear physics, strategic bombing and WWII in general.

Despite knowing that these guys have worked for months and even years around bombs and aircraft it somehow stroke me as strange that the people are all acting so natural around the bombs. But this happens when you look at photographs that were not PR-tailored...


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
nomadd22
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 11:18 am

I don't remember which bomb it was, but there was a story that they put a cable that ran through one of the bombs in backwards and were ready to spend a month disassembling the whole thing to fix it when someone thought of just swapping the connectors on the ends of the cable.
Anon
 
wingman
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:59 pm

Incredible shots. I wonder what Admiral Purnell would think of his words today. The use of the weapons, to me, remains one of my all time conflicted debates. They did the job and presumably saved tens, even hundreds, of thousands of American lives, but I still can't fathom why they didn't drop the first somewhere offshore to limit the damage but still convey the ultimate message. Things may have turned out differently.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 4:47 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 5):

The atomic sword had two edges in Japan.

On one hand, the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki just did the same as conventional incendiary bombs did to Tokio. And there, even more people died during a single attack. The atomic bomb was an effective psychological weapon nevertheless.

On the other hand, the atomic bombs did not make the Japanese surrender. It was a coincidence that they surrendered just after the second atomic bomb. Why? Because the US didn't have more than a handful atomic bombs at this moment. Had the Japanese known this and not surrendered, the USAAF would have been back to conventional bombing very soon. That was their plan anyway after expending their few atomic bombs.

The US Navy had embargoed the Japanese islands very effectively, and it was a matter of time until Japan ran out of resources. Though the bombing of Japan didn't cost the U.S. much, there wasn't also much to gain.



David

[Edited 2014-04-16 09:48:27]
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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DeltaMD90
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:25 pm

I wonder if these guys new what they were really working with? I guess it may be a bit scary at times to be around any bomb but to be crawling on top of a nuke?
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 5:25 pm

Dropping a "warning shot" would not have worked on Imperial Japan in 1945, wingman. The USAAF had already dropped leaflets warning about a devastating weapon, that didn't work.
There were fanatical IJA officers who wanted to fight on, despite the two bombings. They even tried a coup to remove the Emperor, something unheard of in Imperial Japan.
There was no real debate about using the two bombs, as far as President Truman was concerned. What concerned everyone was would the two types of bombs actually work as predicted? They were pretty confident with Little Boy, as the gun type bomb was well understood and testing confirmed its simple operation. But Fat Man was a different story. Prior to the Trinity test, there were many failures.
Counting the Pullman B-29, there were 46 WWII Silverplate B-29s, all assigned to the 509th Composite Group, 15 of these were assigned to the 393rd Bomb Squadron. The Silverplate B-29s could carry either bomb type. The 509th also had the 320 Troop Carrier Squadron assigned, equipped with 8-12 C-54s.
 
bennett123
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 7:27 pm

When were these shots de classified?.
 
GDB
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 16, 2014 8:17 pm

Fascinating yet rather ominous images.

While I understand how many, like Wingman, are conflicted on their use (and to a degree perhaps we all should be), I would add in that it's very likely many more Japanese would have been killed, way more than by the bombs, including - probably mostly - from the civil population, had the invasion gone ahead.
Had Russia, as agreed, also invaded we could have ended with another Korea too.

The politics within Japan at the time can be debated forever, common sense suggests that the dropping of the bombs provided the boost for the faction within the power structure that wanted surrender. And would accept that unconditionally.
Out at sea might well have not had the effect either.

There was never any prospect of allowing Japan to just decline, maybe turn in on itself, then give up, with conditions.
The Allies were clear, memories of how Imperial Germany after WW1, had not been occupied even though they had been roundly beaten on the battlefield and the blockade was stirring revolt and revolution in the country.
Which allowed the whole deadly myth of Germany, 'undefeated' Germany, losing by being 'stabbed in the back' by the Communists and Jews, which of course were moulded into the same in this lie.
We know where that led.
And so did Churchill, FDR, Truman as well as Stalin.

So like Nazi Germany, only a clear sense of total defeat would suffice with Japan, two ways of doing that, an invasion then occupation, or a massive, new, unexpected use of a new super weapon, to both force a surrender and accept occupation, without a shot being fired against the latter.
Which allowed the really very enlightened rule of MacArthur and the making of modern, democratic, non aggressive Japan.

Those crews working on the bombs in those pics could not have known all this, their inclinations were more immediate and personal, the bloody intensity of the Island Hopping war, being no doubt in their minds.
They wanted it to end and go home.
 
aklrno
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:53 am

Nice photos but several errors in the captions. For example, Little Boy was dropped on Hiroshima, not Nagasaki.

Too bad they didn't show the clamps holding the bombs in place. They were made by an engineering company started by one of the Marx brothers. I am not making this up.
 
L-188
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Fri Apr 18, 2014 5:55 am

I don't think I have ever seen those before. Thank you for sharing.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Fri Apr 18, 2014 6:43 pm

Quoting GDB (Reply 10):
There was never any prospect of allowing Japan to just decline, maybe turn in on itself, then give up, with conditions.
The Allies were clear, memories of how Imperial Germany after WW1, had not been occupied even though they had been roundly beaten on the battlefield and the blockade was stirring revolt and revolution in the country.
Which allowed the whole deadly myth of Germany, 'undefeated' Germany, losing by being 'stabbed in the back' by the Communists and Jews, which of course were moulded into the same in this lie.
We know where that led.
And so did Churchill, FDR, Truman as well as Stalin.

So like Nazi Germany, only a clear sense of total defeat would suffice with Japan, two ways of doing that, an invasion then occupation, or a massive, new, unexpected use of a new super weapon, to both force a surrender and accept occupation, without a shot being fired against the latter.
Which allowed the really very enlightened rule of MacArthur and the making of modern, democratic, non aggressive Japan.

This is true, though the two nukes also sent a clear signal to the Soviets not to expand in East Asia.

Btw., the pictures show how the bombs were handled, but e.g. the exact design data of "Little Boy" are still top secret, even though the US got rid of this inherently dangerous gun type bomb design as soon as they had enough safer implosion bombs in the later 1940s. It is after all a working fission bomb design (even though it is prone to accidental explosion) and could be easily copied by terrorists or upcoming nuclear powers provided they have enough highly enriched U237.

Jan
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aklrno
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Sat Apr 19, 2014 11:29 am

U-237 is kind of hard to come by. U-233 would work, but mostly you use U-235.

Regarding the comment above about the cable installed backward, it was very hard to reinstall because it meant removing and replacing hundreds of fasteners. A technician violated all safety rules by bring in a soldering iron next to hundreds of pounds of high explosives and un soldering the connectors and resoldering them correctly and doing a last minute test without really telling the people in charge.
 
rwy04lga
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:57 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 5):
I wonder what Admiral Purnell would think of his words today.

There's a 'John Kroes' still alive, at 92, in Racine.

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):

Magnificent post !!!!

If the US had not dropped the bombs, an invasion would have been necessary.   

That invasion would have cost hundreds of thousands (at LEAST) of US lives.   

One thing that I never see mentioned....Imagine the outrage a few years later when the US people learn of the bombs and realize that those bombs could have obviated the sacrifice of their boys.

Think about that....as a parent that lost a son needlessly....what would you have done?

Demand Truman's head on a pike!

And that's not even counting the million (at LEAST) Japanese that would have been killed fighting to the death, defending their Emperor.

Like it or not, the bombs saved lives.
Just accept that some days, you're the pigeon, and other days the statue
 
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cjg225
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Mon Apr 21, 2014 12:07 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 15):

Magnificent post !!!!

If the US had not dropped the bombs, an invasion would have been necessary.

That invasion would have cost hundreds of thousands (at LEAST) of US lives.

One thing that I never see mentioned....Imagine the outrage a few years later when the US people learn of the bombs and realize that those bombs could have obviated the sacrifice of their boys.

Think about that....as a parent that lost a son needlessly....what would you have done?

Demand Truman's head on a pike!

And that's not even counting the million (at LEAST) Japanese that would have been killed fighting to the death, defending their Emperor.

Like it or not, the bombs saved lives.

You can never convince some people of that, no matter how much sense it makes. Operation Downfall would've been bloodbaths for both sides.

The other argument always forwarded is that neither target presented any military value, which is bopkes. Both had significant military presences.
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BMI727
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Mon Apr 21, 2014 1:28 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 15):
Like it or not, the bombs saved lives.

Beyond that it likely saved all of Korea and a chunk of Japan from falling into Communist darkness for the next few decades.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
 
MD11Engineer
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Mon Apr 21, 2014 7:09 am

Quoting aklrno (Reply 14):
U-237 is kind of hard to come by. U-233 would work, but mostly you use U-235.

Sorry, a typo. I meant U-235.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
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dlednicer
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Mon Apr 21, 2014 6:40 pm

If you want to know everything there probably is to know about the design of the cannon-barrel Uranium bomb ("Little Boy") and the implosion Plutonium bomb ("Fat Man") used in WWII (plus the never-used cannon-barrel "Thin Man" Plutonium bomb), this book has it:
 
fbwless
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Tue Apr 22, 2014 8:26 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
Prior to the Trinity test, there were many failures.

I've searched the internet about this but found nothing. Can you provide some more information?
 
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kanban
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Tue Apr 22, 2014 9:57 pm

 
rwessel
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 23, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting fbwless (Reply 20):

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 8):
Prior to the Trinity test, there were many failures.

I've searched the internet about this but found nothing. Can you provide some more information?

There were no full-up tests of an implosion device before Trinity. There *was* a long series of implosion tests before that mechanism worked correctly, but none of those ever used a "live" core.
 
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dlednicer
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Wed Apr 23, 2014 10:48 pm

Quoting kanban (Reply 21):
cheap at $299

Amazon lists it for $49.95
 
magyar
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:17 am

Quoting rwy04lga (Reply 15):
Magnificent post !!!!

If the US had not dropped the bombs, an invasion would have been necessary.

That invasion would have cost hundreds of thousands (at LEAST) of US lives.

One thing that I never see mentioned....Imagine the outrage a few years later when the US people learn of the bombs and realize that those bombs could have obviated the sacrifice of their boys.

Think about that....as a parent that lost a son needlessly....what would you have done?

Demand Truman's head on a pike!

And that's not even counting the million (at LEAST) Japanese that would have been killed fighting to the death, defending their Emperor.

Like it or not, the bombs saved lives.

I bet you would not be so calm and understanding if someone tried to rationalize the mass murder of US civilians, like 911. Then the line would be "nothing justifies the killing of civilians".

But here is a question that I asked many times and never got an answer for. Did the US give an ultimatum to Japan to surrender after the first bomb? If it did not why not? It seems to be the sensitive thing to do. Let the reality sink in the head of Japanese policy makers and give them time to surrender and avoid further losses. Why rush the second bombing in 3 days time?
 
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kanban
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RE: Wwii Atomic Bomb Photos Declassified

Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:40 am

Quoting magyar (Reply 24):
It seems to be the sensitive thing to do.

back then "sensitive thing to do" and American males at war or in the White House were not mentioned in the same discussion.

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