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RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Mon May 19, 2014 10:08 pm
by mffoda
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 49):

Quoting mffoda (Reply 48):

You're a bit late. The "no" was a fact about 28 hours ago.  

Sorry, didn't see any links confirming the vote...   

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 5:51 am
by seahawk
Quoting moo (Reply 46):

Since when has the Typhoon been out of production?

The idea was having a new selection process starting around 2018, which means deliveries starting by the mid 2020ies. EF production might be over by then.

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:32 am
by epten
Slightly OT, but I always admired how the Swiss defend themselves. They make the hypothetical invasion a NIGHTMARE for any army. Sure, a greater power could conquer the tiny country, but at immense cost - so better not touch them - the cost in men and resources would be too great.

That's how they avoided being annexed by Germany in WWII.

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:49 am
by steman
Quoting epten (Reply 52):
Slightly OT, but I always admired how the Swiss defend themselves. They make the hypothetical invasion a NIGHTMARE for any army. Sure, a greater power could conquer the tiny country, but at immense cost - so better not touch them - the cost in men and resources would be too great.

That's how they avoided being annexed by Germany in WWII.

Sorry for keeping the OT but I find this very interesting.
How would they make any Invasion a nightmare for the invading army?
By means of the geografy (mountains and narrow Valleys?)

I actually thought that Switzerland had not been invaded because there was no need for it.
Surrounded by Axis Countries, it did not pose any threat and it did not possess anything of value.
I think it was actually more valuable as a neutral and indipendent Country within Europe.
And this might still be its main strenght, one that allows its armed Forces to be very small (including
a very small air force)

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 7:58 am
by epten
Yes, geography, but not only geography. There is conscription. There are more than a million gun-trained but also educated men (don't think mindless mujahadeen as in afhganistan!). There is strong self-defense doctrine. There are pre-prepared hard points in the mountains. There are pre-prepared defence plans.

Contrary to popular belief, the reason why Switzerland was not invaded in WWII was not because Hitler didn't wnat to. Oh no. Instead, Hitler was persuaded (twice!) by his generals not to bother. They thought (correctly!) that the invasion - although certainly possible - would simply be too expensive in men and resources.

The plan was to attack Switzerland simultaneously from north and from the south (Italy). In the meantime, the Swiss begun to seriously prepare for an invasion. Invasion which - although planned in detail - never happened. They made themselves too expensive to attack.

"Switzerland's Réduit strategy during World War II was essentially one of deterrence. The idea was to make clear to the Third Reich that an invasion would have a high cost. ( . . . ) Despite this, it is clear that Hitler intended to invade eventually"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_National_Redoubt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Tannenbaum

[Edited 2014-05-20 01:08:09]

[Edited 2014-05-20 01:08:51]

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:01 am
by flyingturtle
Quoting epten (Reply 52):
Sure, a greater power could conquer the tiny country, but at immense cost - so better not touch them - the cost in men and resources would be too great.

I live near the Gempen plateau, an area that was designated for the French artillery to occupy in case of an attack on Switzerland via BSL. German intelligence learned of this, and it's presumed that the Germans successfully used this knowledge to pressure our government into doing stuff - like effectively abolishing the air force. Swiss planes successfully engaged Nazi fighters in a few air battles, but then Göring demanded to pull the fighters back from the borders. Only in the end of the war Swiss fighters were again active - mainly against the Allies...

Quoting steman (Reply 53):
I actually thought that Switzerland had not been invaded because there was no need for it.

That's right. When the decision to attack Switzerland came, Germany was already deep in the Soviet quagmire. Moscow, Stalingrad, Kursk... and then came the Normandy landings.

When WW2 broke out, the Swiss army was in an underfunded, abysmal shape. We had not more than ten anti-aircraft searchlights.

Quoting steman (Reply 53):
I think it was actually more valuable as a neutral and indipendent Country within Europe.

Yes, Switzerland was an important hub for foreign currency, and espionage activities. The Georg Fischer company produced artillery fuses, mainly for the Axis forces.

Quoting epten (Reply 54):
They thought (correctly!) that the invasion - although certainly possible - would simply be too expensive in men and resources.

Yes, occupying the whole of Switzerland!

But the economical centres (industry in the Cantons of Zurich and Aargau) would have been surrendered quickly to the Germans, they would be out of reach of howitzers located in the Alps. The Germans were top-notch in maneuver warfare, and the German juggernaut would have stopped only near the foothills of the Alps.

The Swiss had a high morale, and a superb defensive spirit. But that's not enough against flexible, professional and highly trained German soldiers.


David

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 10:48 am
by mila
Quoting alfons (Reply 33):
I don't like this attitude to simply try to take the cheapest one, so at least we have something new.

Great thinking  

I hope that SAAB learns this and increase the price the next time they will try and sell Gripen, then they will sell more and earn more  

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Tue May 20, 2014 3:52 pm
by epten
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 55):
When WW2 broke out, the Swiss army was in an underfunded, abysmal shape. We had not more than ten anti-aircraft searchlights.

Hmmm.... that's not exactly what wikipedia article says. On contrary, according to wiki, when the war broke out, the Swiss army was fully mobilized and prepared in detail.

Also, the air force was not abolished. They simply stopped shooting at German aircraft.

"On 20 June 1940, the Swiss air force was ordered to stop intercepting planes violating Swiss airspace. Swiss fighters began instead to force intruding aircraft to land at Swiss airfields. Anti-aircraft units still operated. Later, Hitler and Hermann Göring sent saboteurs to destroy Swiss airfields, but the sabotage team was captured by the Swiss army before it could cause any damage."

Sorry again for OT, but I find Switzerland, the Swiss system of government, defence and Swiss history truly fascinating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzer...during_the_World_Wars#World_War_II

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:56 am
by Kiwirob
I guess the end result of this is that the Swiss believe they no longer need an airforce. If you're not going to replace what you have now by the time the voters do get around to agreeing to replacement most of the fleet will have been grounded and the pilots will have retired or moved to commercial operators.

RE: I Need To Vote On May 18 For Gripen E

Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 12:47 pm
by flyingturtle
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
I guess the end result of this is that the Swiss believe they no longer need an airforce. If you're not going to replace what you have now by the time the voters do get around to agreeing to replacement most of the fleet will have been grounded and the pilots will have retired or moved to commercial operators.

Most flying hours are flown by professional military pilots, while the air force struggles to give militia pilots flying time. AFAIK F/A-18 are only flown by professional pilots, F-5E/F mostly by militia ones. If you want to be a military pilot (or a commercial pilot), you try your damnedest to attend the "aviation pre-schooling", which comes before military training. This jacks up your changes of being trained as a military pilot, or getting selected by SWISS as a trainee pilot.


David