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Max Q
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Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 5:52 am

Wondering if military aircraft are covered by insurance policies ?


Also, do they come with a warranty ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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BMI727
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:19 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Also, do they come with a warranty ?

I believe many of them do come with warranties, as does other military hardware. I doubt they have insurance though. I don't believe most police departments insure cruisers, they just get beat up too much.
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Legs
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 8:20 am

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):

Lots of the individual parts come with limited warranties; avionics boxes, major subassemblies etc. I have seen the manufacturer footing the bill for faults that cropped up during the delivery flight, but thats about as far as I know of for warranties on the whole airframe itself. You could probably argue that the integrated maintenance solutions that are the vogue currently is a form of warranty.

As far as insurance, thats pretty well the responsibility of the operator, AFAIK.
 
L-188
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 6:41 pm

Warranties yes, usually they are called out in the procurement contract for the aircraft.

Insurance....no. Who would insure an airplane that gets shot at?

A good portion of government groups usually "self-insure" at least a part if not all of their assets anyway. So the loss would be carried by the taxpayers.
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KC135Hydraulics
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:13 pm

In the case of the C-17, we were not allowed to touch/overhaul many components that went bad on it until very recently, and the reason given to us was that they were under warranty. The C-17s at this base were delivered in 2004 and 2005. I don't know if the warranty pertained specifically to the new-built aircraft assigned here, or to the entire fleet, but there certainly was a warranty situation going on. It was quite a disappointment too because we really wanted to tear-down a lot of the failed parts.

On the KC-135, however, we are authorized and have the capability to overhaul at least 75% of the hydraulic parts on it, to include in limited capacities the refueling boom. The only "warranty" situation we have would come in the form of a DR, or deficiency report, meaning we can request a refund from the manufacturer on a part from supply that was certified serviceable but was found to be bad upon receipt or operational check once installed.
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Max Q
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 2:14 am

Quoting L-188 (Reply 3):
Insurance....no. Who would insure an airplane that gets shot at?

Insurance companies worldwide.


There are plenty of commercial Aircraft that fly in and out of war zones, they have insurance and they certainly get shot at, remember the DHL A300 ?


And Military aircraft covers a lot of ground, plenty of them never get shot at anyway.
Wadrs does anyone actually know the answer to the question ?
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columba
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 8:33 am

For insurance reasons all German Air Force aircaft stationed in the USA (except for the Tornado as they are not in the inventory of the USAF) are/were wearing USAF markings.

German Aircraft with USAF markings were:
F104s, F-4Es, T-37, T-38
and are now the T-6 Texan IIs.
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ptrjong
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 12:06 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):

Insurance is spreading risk among a large group of individuals. It makes no sense for a government to pay insurance for a whole army. For example, paying insurance for 100 aircraft costs the same as losing one aircraft every year.
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tommy1808
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 1:49 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
Wadrs does anyone actually know the answer to the question ?

And it is properly a question for each country and its legislation. Aircraft have to have insurance, if the law has no exception for military aircraft or the law only makes a duty to obtain insurance for civil registered then they will be unlikely to be insured.

The JASDF F2 that have been destroyed by the Tsunami have not been replaced, nor has there been an RFP to replace them with their insurance money. So i guess at least those didn´t have insurance.

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Woodreau
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Mon Apr 28, 2014 3:09 pm

I doubt the US government has insurance on its aircraft. You'll find certificates of insurance aboard any airliner, you won't find them on a US military aircraft. They don't insure the aircraft carriers or any other warship.

If a mishap happens, money either gets programmed for replacement/repair or it's written off.

At least on the military side, the government has a budget, but in the Navy at least, we operated under an OPTAR - operating target. I got $2 million a year to maintain an AEGIS weapons system, radars, computers, launchers, sonar, the whole package. When I ran out of money for repairs, say I needed to replace a fire control radar that failed and I didn't have money left in my OPTAR, I just went higher and magically more money appeared from somewhere (I don't know and I didn't care) and it got fixed or I was told to keep it deferred until they could give me more priority to get it fixed.
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PhilBy
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 5:16 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
Aircraft have to have insurance, if the law has no exception for military aircraft or the law only makes a duty to obtain insurance for civil registered then they will be unlikely to be insured.

Aircraft have to have civil liability insurance. There is no requirement to insure against damage to the airframe (same as for cars).
 
Norlander
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:21 am

From an economic perspective it would be ridiculous to insure state own aircraft if the state that owns them is sufficiently large, i.e. if the capital expenditure to reacquire the aircraft is minor relative to budget of the state. Insurance is negative expected value for the policyholder by its very nature since the insurance industry needs to make a profit; it just hedges against unforeseen losses.

If there are specific legal requirements the state should set up a proforma state insurance corporation for this purpose - anything else is waste of government finances.
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ThePointblank
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Tue Apr 29, 2014 6:40 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 8):
The JASDF F2 that have been destroyed by the Tsunami have not been replaced, nor has there been an RFP to replace them with their insurance money. So i guess at least those didn´t have insurance.

They could not build more F-2's anyways, so they had no way of replacing them. Generally, fighters need a 2-3 year lead time for currently in-production aircraft before one can be built, and since the F-2 line rolled out the last fighter that year, it would have been too late to order replacements.
 
smittyone
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Wed Apr 30, 2014 4:03 pm

Quoting Max Q (Thread starter):
Wondering if military aircraft are covered by insurance policies ?

The answer is "no" in the United States.

Financial loss to the government from an accident is dealt with as Woodreau described, while the "liability" aspect of the use of US military hardware is dealt with under the Federal Tort Claims Act...those who incur damages caused by military activity have the same means of seeking redress (limited to the degree to which the government will allow themselves to be liable - cases of negligence etc.) that they would in any other case where the government causes damages. Just submit your Standard Form 95!

http://www.justice.gov/civil/common/docs-forms.html

I'm sure it is more complicated than that, but the bottom line is if you are talking about commercially procured liability insurance on military aircraft, ships, vehicles - no the US federal government does not buy that.

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
For insurance reasons all German Air Force aircaft stationed in the USA (except for the Tornado as they are not in the inventory of the USAF) are/were wearing USAF markings.

Not "insurance" in the sense of being covered by a commercial policy - but to confer sovereign immunity on the jets so that if something bad happened people would be able to (or limited to as the case may be) seek the same compensation as though it had been a US jet.

(edited for clarity)

[Edited 2014-04-30 09:16:19]
 
ArmitageShanks
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:25 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 10):
Aircraft have to have civil liability insurance.
Quoting smittyone (Reply 13):
The answer is "no" in the United States.

What about when, say, the Blue Angels perform or when you see those flyovers at football games where there is a chance of something going wrong and killing lots of people?
 
DiamondFlyer
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:32 am

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 10):
Aircraft have to have civil liability insurance. There is no requirement to insure against damage to the airframe (same as for cars).

Within the United States, there is zero requirement to carry any insurance at all on an airplane.

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kanban
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Fri May 02, 2014 1:47 am

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 14):
What about when, say, the Blue Angels perform or when you see those flyovers at football games where there is a chance of something going wrong and killing lots of people?

I believe it is the sponsoring event that carries the insurance. The cost has doomed some air shows.

Now when a military plane on a military mission or training ceases to remain airborne and provides a land clearing function frequently involving non crew members, I'm not sure how that is worked out.. It would not be an insurance policy on the plane, however the service branch either carries something or is part of a government insurance pool.
 
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zeke
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Fri May 02, 2014 9:12 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
There are plenty of commercial Aircraft that fly in and out of war zones, they have insurance and they certainly get shot at, remember the DHL A300 ?

The civil aircraft normally have war and terrorism exclusions. Same with travel insurance.
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rfields5421
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Fri May 02, 2014 10:13 pm

There is a concept in the insurance business called 'self insurance'.

Where by a person, company or government with sufficient financial resources does not have to buy insurance - they have the assets available to handle any liability which results in an insurance claim.


Also understand there is a difference between insurance and liability. A company or government can choose to not pay insurance, but cannot refuse to accept liability - especially if ordered by a court.


The US government does not purchase insurance. Even when I was traveling on government orders and renting a car as authorized by those orders - I would not be reimbursed if I purchased insurance for that rental car.

One of the offices in the group I last worked for had an automobile accident. The cost of replacing the GSA provided government vehicle came out of their operations budget/OPTAR. Even the costs of paying the medical claims for the injured people in the other vehicle came out of their unit budget about a year later when the claims were settled.


In the case of warranties on aircraft and parts for aircraft - procurement contracts spell out in detail the way the manufacturer / supplier will support the product. For military aircraft, the builder has to provide the replacement services as specified, but often pay for technical representatives to work at military bases to support the aircraft / equipment.

Whenever any company signs a contract with the United States government, they agree that US government regulations apply. The company standard warranties, the laws of the state where the company is incorporated - etc - all are secondary and only apply if they do not conflict with US government regulations.
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Max Q
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Sun May 04, 2014 6:16 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 17):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 5):
There are plenty of commercial Aircraft that fly in and out of war zones, they have insurance and they certainly get shot at, remember the DHL A300 ?

The civil aircraft normally have war and terrorism exclusions. Same with travel insurance.

No, they just pay higher rates, this is the normal cost of doing business.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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smittyone
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RE: Are Military Aircraft Insured?

Wed May 07, 2014 11:50 am

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 14):
What about when, say, the Blue Angels perform or when you see those flyovers at football games where there is a chance of something going wrong and killing lots of people?

If that were to happen, then the remedies provided under the law would apply...I'm not a lawyer so I can't tell you exactly what they are, but I'm telling you that the US Navy (in the case of the Blue Angels) does not have a contract with State Farm or what have you to buy liability insurance to cover this. If a judgment is made against the government due to negligence etc. then the government pays up. I don't know how the event host's insurance would apply in that case...they may in fact have to sign some sort of waiver assuming responsibility for mishaps on their property?

I have served in and commanded military ships where we performed public affairs missions or interacted with private citizens all the time in the course of our duties. There was no "insurance policy" in place, but you can bet that I and my operational commanders were always concerned about safety etc. because we knew that if something bad happened the government might bear liability. As long as I was performing in accordance with the law and not grossly negligent I was immune from personal lawsuits due to sovereign immunity. Though of course my head was always on the block if something went wrong from a career/Court Martial standpoint.

I also once did an administrative investigation of a small boat collision between a government vessel and a private boat where my function was to gather all the facts to support the proper resolution of a claim in the event that the private party made one. "Insurance" as the term is being discussed here had nothing to do with it.

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