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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 7:33 pm

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 99):
Delivery in 2018?

Must be just the delivery of the green airframe. The mod will take longer and would probably be bidded out separately.

They have to get their frames in before Boeing shuts the 747 line down.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:02 pm

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 99):
Delivery in 2018? So are we talking 2028 timeframe before the two current VC-25s are retired?
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 100):
Must be just the delivery of the green airframe. The mod will take longer and would probably be bidded out separately.

They have to get their frames in before Boeing shuts the 747 line down.

Probably is a green airframe.. however that would still be 8 years storage before the modifications started.. and a major opportunity for some future President or Congress to insist on something else rather than doing the mod. A lot can change in that time frame.
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 96):
Personaly, I'd be surprised if Airbus even bothered to submit a proposal.
Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 97):
Especially in the light of the KC-46 selection process, isn't it?

Well, the USAF did...bend...the RFP to choose Airbus for the KC-45 selection process...    But we've hashed that one out enough on this forum, so let's not do so again, shall we?

A legitimate reason for Airbus to not submit a bid is the requirement, as I understand it, that the airframe be manufactured in the United States and Airbus is not going to build a temporary A380 FAL in the US (at Mobile?) just for two airframes.

Now that requirement might be only for an airframe that is outfitted during production and that would be an issue for Boeing as the 747-8 line is not ITAR-compliant (like the 767 line now is).

So I would expect the USAF to select a "green aircraft" and then perform most of the modifications somewhere else, which could allow Airbus to build the A380 at TLS and then fly it to a US-based completion center.

[Edited 2014-12-08 12:40:17]
 
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scbriml
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:43 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 98):
Yea, Airbus has stated that they will not participate in this program whatsoever.

That was some time ago and, as they say, things change. Depending on the exact wording of the RFP, it might be worth Airbus bidding.

It would be good if they did, just to get the discussion going.   
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 08, 2014 11:41 pm

Quoting scbriml (Reply 103):
It would be good if they did, just to get the discussion going.   

Oh Please NO!!!! We will still be debating (that's polite for pissing about) the tanker bidding when the last one retires to the desert in 2085.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Dec 09, 2014 2:18 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 102):
Boeing as the 747-8 line is not ITAR-compliant (like the 767 line now is).

The green airplane probably would not need to be ITAR compliant because for this project, all of the ITAR items are done as a conversion.

With the 767 tanker, some of the provisions for military hardware are included in-line. Even so, with export control reform much of the "provisions" should be re-classified as non-ITAR.

And for such a low production rate for the 747, it should be easy enough to convert the line to ITAR.

Which of course does not mean that the Secret Service wont keep tabs on each of the airframes to make sure nothing is where it shouldn't be.

bt

[Edited 2014-12-09 06:22:35]
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Dec 10, 2014 1:39 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 105):
Which of course does not mean that the Secret Service wont keep tabs on each of the airframes to make sure nothing is where it shouldn't be.

Oh they will, and the under cover ones are lousy riveters...      
 
epten
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sat Dec 13, 2014 8:37 pm

I don't get it. Four engines necessary for... generating electricity?

Why not two engines and APUs?
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Sun Dec 14, 2014 1:07 am

Quoting epten (Reply 107):
I don't get it. Four engines necessary for... generating electricity?

Why not two engines and APUs?

The electrical needs may be too high for such a configuration.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Mon Dec 15, 2014 1:59 pm

Quoting epten (Reply 107):
I don't get it. Four engines necessary for... generating electricity?
Quoting Stitch (Reply 108):
The electrical needs may be too high for such a configuration.

If they can generate enough electricity for an huge phase array radar on the 737, they can generate enough electricity to support all the systems on Air Force One on a twin.

The 4 engines are for redundancy. (Including redundancy of electricity sources in case of engine out and continue operation).

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Dec 16, 2014 11:38 am

If there existed a bigger twin made in the US, I wonder if the 4 engines requirement would stand, or if suddenly that 797 would be favored, you know, mine is bigger than yours and all that.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Tue Dec 16, 2014 2:00 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 110):
If there existed a bigger twin made in the US

If you look 25 years down the road, the biggest twin with any history of service would be the 777X. Guess they would have no choice but to go to a twin then.  

But we are way ahead of ourselves.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:13 pm

Reuters are reporting that the 748i has been chosen by the USAF with an announcement due Wednesday 28th. It's just a headline so no link available and no mention of how many frames.
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:24 pm

What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:42 pm

And here's the letter:

http://oi62.tinypic.com/2qc14yv.jpg
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
starrion
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:54 pm

Any reason that Boeing couldn't put forth the LH whitetail as the platform?
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:59 pm

Quoting starrion (Reply 115):
Any reason that Boeing couldn't put forth the LH whitetail as the platform?

1) LH may yet take it (it's evidently been re-assigned to LH in Boeing's internal listings);

2) If LH doesn't take it, someone else might (VIP or other customer);

3) The nature of the internal outfitting may call for some work to be done during assembly or change incorporation on an already-completed airframe may be impractical.
 
PC12Fan
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:10 pm

Another link:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-replacement-with-bids-for-systems

Nothing on Boeing's site yet. Can't say this is a surprise, yet it's awesome to hear!!

Long live the Queen!
Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
 
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Miami
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:29 pm

I guess if it wasn't Boeing. The President isn't going! Anywhere, that is..

Congrats to Boeing and to the Presidents of the United States!
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
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LAXintl
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:32 pm

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 117):
Nothing on Boeing's site yet.

And it wont be. There is no contract or formal procurement order.

We don't even know what the Pentagon budget road map will be. Obama is scheduled to present his FY16 defense budget next week so lets see if there is money set aside to get the project ball rolling, let alone actual procurement funds.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:38 pm

Quoting Stitch (Reply 116):
3) The nature of the internal outfitting may call for some work to be done during assembly or change incorporation on an already-completed airframe may be impractical.

supplementing Stitches comment:
there are several structural modifications that cost and process prohibitive to be accomplished after after section assembly (prior to FAL)..

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 117):

Since there is no contract yet, it is very unlikely there will be any press release.. but it sometimes happens with some vague piece about they are happy to be considered and await conclusion of contract talks.
 
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Miami
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:40 pm

I think there should be a Air Force 2 replacement thread. That old 757 can be replaced at least by a 787!
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
a380787
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 9:55 pm

excellent news. It's only logical that the US President flies the flagship Boeing plane. Using a 777-9 just feels awkward.

Any other nations have announced / deployed the 748 or 388 as their Head-of-state plane ?

Germany is so frugal I'd imagine the next plane for Merkel would be A321LR =p
 
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Stitch
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:08 pm

Quoting a380787 (Reply 122):
Any other nations have announced / deployed the 748 or 388 as their Head-of-state plane ?

May or may not be an official Head of State Transport, but the following governments have taken delivery of or have on order 747-8 VIP airframes:

Abu Dhabi
Bahrain
Kuwait
Oman
Qatar
 
GulfstreamFive
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:11 pm

 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:46 pm

Congratulations Boeing and USAF.

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
May or may not be an official Head of State Transport

What about Air China's B748Is. I thought Chinese Leaders use those for official visits.
All posts are just opinions.
 
UA444
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:47 pm

Quoting Miami (Reply 121):
I think there should be a Air Force 2 replacement thread. That old 757 can be replaced at least by a 787!

That will most likely be a 767-200ER or 300ER since those are more similar in size to a 757 and the USAF will have lots of 767s for commonality.
 
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ordell
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting AviationAware (Reply 125):

5 fucking years of testing? What the hell?

Translation: your tax dollars funneled to Boeing.
 
hiflyeras
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:06 pm

Didn't you see 'Independence Day'? This baby has to be able to outrun an alien invasion!  
 
Buckeyetech
Posts: 163
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:26 pm

Although highly unlikely, who else thinks the Air Force One's livery needs an update? Don't get me wrong, I love the Jackie Kennedy inspired look that has been around over fifty years, but the sky's the limit with ideas. Maybe adding some red in the blue and white?
  
B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
jimbobjoe
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Wed Jan 28, 2015 11:40 pm

Quoting ordell (Reply 127):
Translation: your tax dollars funneled to Boeing.

It really does need that testing. It is such a heavily modified aircraft.

Which is also its biggest weakness. You can do as much testing as you want but ultimately it's a unique electronics experiment.
 
747WanSui
Posts: 183
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:08 am

Now that the replacement aircraft has been announced, I'm wondering: what will happen to the existing aircraft? Will they be preserved (like their two 707 predecessors were) or will they be torn up?
Long live the Boeing 747!
 
Buckeyetech
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:19 am

Quoting 747WanSui (Reply 131):

The national museum of the U.S. Air force will more than likely get one to add to their collection. The other? It'll probably be game on for the competition between the presidential libraries to get it.

http://www.nationalmuseum.af.mil/exhibits/presidential/index.asp
B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:25 am

Quoting Miami (Reply 121):
I think there should be a Air Force 2 replacement thread. That old 757 can be replaced at least by a 787!

That old 757 is in fact about 5 (2 new, several former commercial units) and when replaced will probably be Boeing's yet to be designed new single aisle.. However starting a thread on that replacement is premature

Quoting jimbobjoe (Reply 130):

While the Bloomberg release says "The first new Air Force One isn’t expected to be delivered until 2018, when it will be tested before entering service in fiscal 2023." It should have said "outfitted and test" . Until the contract is signed we can assume Boeing will do the outfitting, but that is not a given. However the delivery will be a modified green fuselage that has flown, then the tricky work begins..
 
jreuschl
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:48 am

Do we know how many cycles/hours the current aircraft have flown? I'm not questioning the replacement decision, but are they truly in need of replacement duty-wise?
 
Braniff747SP
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:46 am

Quoting jreuschl (Reply 134):

Do we know how many cycles/hours the current aircraft have flown? I'm not questioning the replacement decision, but are they truly in need of replacement duty-wise?

Relatively, very few; however, I think the replacement comes about due to the simple fact that we're talking about decades-old technology. A new airframe would have several operational advantages.
The 747 will always be the TRUE queen of the skies!
 
Flighty
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:25 am

Will the E4-B be replaced too? By what?
 
jetwet1
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:07 am

Quoting kanban (Reply 133):

That old 757 is in fact about 5 (2 new, several former commercial units) and when replaced will probably be Boeing's yet to be designed new single aisle.. However starting a thread on that replacement is premature

The same could be said for the never ending "What will be the new Air force one?" threads that started pretty much the day after the current ones were delivered.

Anyways, BBJ2 ?

Quoting Braniff747SP (Reply 135):

Relatively, very few; however, I think the replacement comes about due to the simple fact that we're talking about decades-old technology. A new airframe would have several operational advantages.

The tech isn't the problem, it's the spare parts, they are getting harder to come by and as such more expensive, it gets, much like a car where it is cheaper to replace than repair.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 136):
Will the E4-B be replaced too? By what?

More 748's probably.
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:38 am

Quoting Flighty (Reply 136):
Will the E4-B be replaced too? By what?

According to http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...upgrade-usas-e4b-naoc-fleet-01671/ Boeing has been awarded several contracts for updating the E-4B as late as September 2014.

Many years ago there was plans to replace them with E-10A, something based on B767-400ER. But the E-10A program has been cancelled long time ago.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
DeltaMD95
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:21 am

Any good news for the 747-8 program is certainly welcomed news. If nothing else, this will take a chunk out of the impending write-off the program may be facing, and stretch production to 2017 - hopefully not as the final jumbos off the assembly line.
Did you know that a Boeing 717-200 is really a McDonnell Douglas MD95-30? ;-)
 
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ssteve
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 6:41 am

Gotta love the USAF. "We are certain to buy the 748 and no other plane. We will now negotiate terms with Boeing."

They really know how to play hardball!
 
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RWA380
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:13 am

Quoting scbriml (Reply 96):
Personaly, I'd be surprised if Airbus even bothered to submit a proposal.

I agree they should not bother with even lifting a pen,

1) it's been announced it's going to be a 748, but even before I read that far down in this thread, I kept thinking of how pissed everyone in the US got, when they found out the Ralph Lauren Polo jackets that the USA Olympic team were going to wear in the opening ceremony of the last summer Olympics were made in China.

Then I could see everyone involved with procuring an A380 instead, standing in front of Boehner being lashed while he demanded you bark for forgiveness.

Quoting epten (Reply 107):

I don't get it. Four engines necessary for... generating electricity?

Yes, lots & lots of electricity, I watched a special on the two aircraft currently playing the role of AF1, there are tons of big systems on board from obvious stuff like satellite communications to not so obvious things like artificial environments onboard to the kitcken that serves the President & Family plus any number of diplomats & press.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 110):

If there existed a bigger twin made in the US, I wonder if the 4 engines requirement would stand, or if suddenly that 797 would be favored, you know, mine is bigger than yours and all that.

Our President can show up in a cessna and be confident in the locker room ....

Quoting Miami (Reply 121):

I think there should be a Air Force 2 replacement thread. That old 757 can be replaced at least by a 787!

John Kerry wants you to start a petition, he has recently become public about his feelings regarding the 757s. He has used his private jet before at taxpayer expense before.

Quoting a380787 (Reply 122):
Germany is so frugal I'd imagine the next plane for Merkel would be A321LR =p

Angela doesn't have to ludicrious posse that Barrak has, he needs a 747 for all the press, stylists, personal aids, press secrateries, hair stylists, cooks, servers, cleaners

Quoting Stitch (Reply 123):
Abu Dhabi
Bahrain
Kuwait
Oman
Qatar

When Our President shows up, his can't appear inferior to the biggest players on the planet, it won't, ours will be the newest, but likely not the most lavish.

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 129):

Although highly unlikely, who else thinks the Air Force One's livery needs an update? Don't get me wrong, I love the Jackie Kennedy inspired look that has been around over fifty years, but the sky's the limit with ideas. Maybe adding some red in the blue and white?

It should be clean, crisp & professionally stylish with very little flair.

I could see something with a (blown up to size) waving American flag on each side of the tail, then a bald eagle presidential insignia on each door. The remainder of the fuselage should be crisp white, with an updated cheatline in the same blue currently used, the large "United States of America" should linger down 3/4 of the length of the fuselage.

Quoting DeltaMD95 (Reply 139):
hopefully not as the final jumbos off the assembly line

I kind of always imagined that the last 748s off the line would be go to the AF1 replacement program, it would be the most noble & fitting end to the 747 run of nearly 50 years by the time it's retired.
707 717 720 727-1/2 737-1/2/3/4/5/6/7/8/9 747-1/2/3/4 757-2/3 767-2/3/4 777-2/3 DC8 DC9 MD80/2/7/8 D10-1/3/4 M11 L10-1/2/5 A300/310/320
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gennadius
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:50 am

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 138):
According to http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/...upgrade-usas-e4b-naoc-fleet-01671/ Boeing has been awarded several contracts for updating the E-4B as late as September 2014.

True, however these updates seem to be more operational, and not necessarily geared at extending the airframe's lifespan. I would think it possible that they may look into procuring their replacements sometime soon still.
Per ardua, ad astra
 
rj777
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 1:48 pm

ok, so we know Obama's not gonna get to see this plane..... #45 is unlikely (even if he/she gets elected to a 2nd term), so does that mean #46 will be the first prez to ride the new AF1?
 
durangomac
Posts: 488
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:58 pm

CNN is reporting that the DOD has selected the 748. Yes I know it's CNN but interesting. $1.65 billion between now and 2019 for the planes has been set aside.

CNN Article

Quote:
The Pentagon has chosen Boeing's 747-8 to replace the two aging planes that serve as the President's Air Force One fleet.

Air Force Secretary Deborah Lee James said in a statement that the plane, one of Boeing's largest, is the only aircraft "manufactured in the United States [that] when fully missionized meets the necessary capabilities established to execute the presidential support mission, while reflecting the office of the President of the United States of America consistent with the national public interest."
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting UA444 (Reply 126):

That will most likely be a 767-200ER

As an executive aircraft to fly the Sec Def or VP, the 767 would be too much of an aircraft. Besides, with the 767 tanker being also a cargo transport, it would be easy enough to use one of those if you need the capacity.

Otherwise, a 737 BBJ should be good enough. They will have plenty of 737 in inventory with the P-8's and C40's

Quoting ordell (Reply 127):
Quoting AviationAware (Reply 125):

5 fucking years of testing? What the hell?

Translation: your tax dollars funneled to Boeing.

  

Quoting kanban (Reply 133):
. Until the contract is signed we can assume Boeing will do the outfitting, but that is not a given.

What he said. . . Although I hope Boeing would win and I might get a chance to work on that plane.

Quoting SSTeve (Reply 140):
"We are certain to buy the 748 and no other plane. We will now negotiate terms with Boeing."

There are some rules and protocol to prevent Boeing from making up the frames too much. You are not going to see 100% mark-ups. Besides, most of the cost of the Presidential aircraft would probably be in the Mod anyway. The mod will be where you will get the competitive bid.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Sooner787
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:35 pm

If memory serves, the current VC-25's were flown as green frames to

Boeing Wichita for outfitting. Since Spirit now owns that facility,

who would have the inside track to perform the outfitting?
 
karadion
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 3:41 pm

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 146):

Boeing San Antonio is a possibility.
 
JAAlbert
Posts: 1980
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 12:43 pm

RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 4:42 pm

So how will they (USAF) use the extra space on the 748? I assume they will use the passenger model rather than the freighter version with the smaller hump? Will the upper deck be solely communications as it is now? Will they install the sleeper option in the crown - which would be nice for senior staffers?

And my last question - had the 748 not been available, what aircraft would USAF have chosen? They insist on 4 engined aircraft, but other than the 388, none other exist. How would Boeing have provided the necessary electrical supply with say a 777x? Or would Boeing have added two engines to the 777x frame just for the USAF orders? Would that even be possible? (a 777x with four engines would be a sexy beast!)

On another topic, the VP should definitely get a 788! It's only fair   (actually the 788 might be a nicer ride than the 748)
 
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kanban
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RE: Air Force One Replacement Thread

Thu Jan 29, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting Karadion (Reply 147):

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 146):

Boeing San Antonio is a possibility.

I would suspect San Antonio for the mechanical and electrical systems work plus some structural stuff ( refueling, anti missile systems and cargo hold beefing) and back to Everett for the actual interior finishing and paint. There was talk about having an elevator entry also installed and for that the planes would probably go to that supplier before much work is done in mod.
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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos