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KarelXWB
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Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:13 pm

In 2012, NASA physicist Harold White revealed that he and a team were working on a design for a faster-than-light ship. Now he's collaborated with an artist to create a new, more realistic design of what such a ship might actually look like.

The new update has far less empty space than the first concept model, making it more efficient overall. Work is still ongoing, and obviously neither the spacecraft nor the warp-drive technology exists at this point.

A warp drive requires a lot of energy,

Quote:
An Alcubierre drive relies upon a dual ring structure made of extremely dense exotic matter that surrounds a central pod where the crew and cargo reside. When supplied with enough power, the Alcubierre drive can create a bubble of stable space around the craft while warping it in front and behind. This would allow the ship to move at sub-relativistic speeds, but cover incredible distances in real space.

The ship would eventually be able to get us to Alpha Centauri, which is over 4 light years away, in about two weeks’ time. According to SPLOID, White claims that would be accomplished without “tidal forces inside the bubble, no undue issues, and the proper acceleration is zero. When you turn the field on, everybody doesn’t go slamming against the bulkhead, which would be a very short and sad trip.”

Energy requirements have also come down sharply, from Alcubierre’s initial calculation that planetary-sized power sources would be required to more recent data that suggests we could build a ship with a power source the size of Voyager 2 — if we can create the necessary effect at the appropriate scale.

http://www.slashgear.com/nasa-spaces...wcases-warp-drive-future-10333009/


ixspreparation2 by yard2380, on Flickr

[Edited 2014-06-11 14:33:08]
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nomadd22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:53 am

Another term for exotic matter is "magic". And even if they did manage to come up with a warp drive, it has one very basic problem. There's no way for the warp bubble to propagate faster than light speed in the first place. The best you could do would be to send gear to the location at sub light and create a warp corridor.
Anon
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:21 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 1):
Another term for exotic matter is "magic"

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic

Exotic matter is improbable, not impossible, and subject to plenty of research.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 1):
There's no way for the warp bubble to propagate faster than light speed in the first place

the bubble doesn´t travel faster than light, in the warp concept only space time does, the concept does not violate Einstein field equations.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 1):
The best you could do would be to send gear to the location at sub light and create a warp corridor.

afaik that would be a Krasnikov tube and not an Alcubierre drive. But i guess before we start designing the livery we might want t figure out if space time is flat or not or other details like that...

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Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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vzlet
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Thu Jun 12, 2014 12:53 pm

It all sounds like an elaborate scheme to avoid having to award full frequent flyer miles!
"That's so stupid! If they're so secret, why are they out where everyone can see them?" - my kid
 
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autothrust
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Thu Jun 12, 2014 1:07 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 2):
afaik that would be a Krasnikov tube and not an Alcubierre drive.

Correct, here is a video of Dr. Michio Kaku and Dr. Alcubierre explaining this warp drive,

http://youtu.be/w7P95LLpljo

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 2):
the bubble doesn´t travel faster than light, in the warp concept only space time does, the concept does not violate Einstein field equations.

Indeed.

Quote:
e also come down sharply, from Alcubierre’s initial calculation that planetary-sized power sources would be required to more recent data that suggests we could build a ship with a power source the size of Voyager 2 — if we can create the necessary effect at the appropriate scale.

What Voyager powersource is in question? The three RTG's?? Can't believe that.
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Acheron
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 2:09 am

An issue that I've seen mentioned several times with Warp Drives is that the amount of particles collected in front of the bubble will be released as powerful energy burst capable of wiping out whatever it's infront of the ship once it stops.

Human kind won't be any popular with our neighbors if we wipe them out on our first trip...
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:17 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 5):
Human kind won't be any popular with our neighbors if we wipe them out on our first trip...

Well, since you won´t be able to "jump" directly into the targets planet orbit you won´t have much of a problem to drop out of "warp" where it doesn´t hurt anyone. Unless you want to. Makes for the next thing after the H-bomb still though....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
solarflyer22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:12 pm

This ship looked really awesome when I saw it online and it appears very realistic for a model.

I would love to see the warp bubble work but its hard for me to grasp intellectually. I think in order to bend space essentially you are just going to need god like amounts of power if its even possible.

I don't see why you couldn't fly at near relativistic speeds soon though. That's all you need as the people and matter on board will age more slowly anyway.

The other strange issue is stopping the ship. You can't brake real hard otherwise you'll pull 5,000 Gs and kill everyone aboard. The deceleration phase could be years.
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 3:43 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 1):
Another term for exotic matter is "magic". And even if they did manage to come up with a warp drive, it has one very basic problem. There's no way for the warp bubble to propagate faster than light speed in the first place. The best you could do would be to send gear to the location at sub light and create a warp corridor.

The whole idea behind a warp drive is that you can travel at a very high speed without violating the laws of nature. In fact, the ship itself won't be traveling faster than light, the technology works by bending space and shortening the distance between two objects.
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nomadd22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 4:06 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 8):
The whole idea behind a warp drive is that you can travel at a very high speed without violating the laws of nature. In fact, the ship itself won't be traveling faster than light, the technology works by bending space and shortening the distance between two objects.

The problem is, although it's conceivable that you could warp space to decrease the distance you have to travel, you have to be able to reach out and affect that space before you can do anything. And, there's no way for any force to reach into space at greater than light speed in order to compress or warp it. The idea could be used to travel at near light speed without all the acceleration needed, which is the big problem with interstellar travel, since even a perfectly efficient anti matter powered reaction drive would take insane amounts of power to get to and from near light.
Anon
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 5:58 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 9):
since even a perfectly efficient anti matter powered reaction drive would take insane amounts of power to get to and from near light.

Isn't that just a matter of time before someone finds a solution for this issue? I'm not talking about cheating our laws of nature. Harold White claims to have found a solution for the huge power source required for his warp ship. Of course, he has yet to provide the proof.

Mankind are good in finding solutions to problems, I'm therefore convinced we will overcome the issues for space travel and in some 100 years from now we will be travelling through the galaxy (unless someone starts WW III).
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tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:47 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 9):
The problem is, although it's conceivable that you could warp space to decrease the distance you have to travel, you have to be able to reach out and affect that space before you can do anything. And, there's no way for any force to reach into space at greater than light speed in order to compress or warp it.

The Universe is about 14 Billion years old and has a 45 billion lightyear diameter. Lots of stuff, in fact whole galaxies move faster than light. Somehow expansion of space/time can obviously be done faster than the speed of light. If nature can do it, there is a law allowing it, so given advanced enough technology we can do it to.
I am not really in the mood to sit down and calculate the redshift value above which every galaxy is moving with at least the speed of light away from us. But i think a value somewhere above 4 should be a save guess. UDFj-39546284 has a redshift value of 11.9.
We are currently flying away from UDFj-39546284 at warp speed and no-one came before us to build a warp-tunnel for our galaxy.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 6:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):
Somehow expansion of space/time can obviously be done faster than the speed of light.

It cannot be done faster than the speed of light. However, scientists believe the speed of light has changed over time.
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steman
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:03 pm

Are we talking seriously here? I mean, is this whole concept of the faster than light travel real?
Is the theory confirmed and it´s just a matter of putting theory into practice?
So wormhole or warp technologies are possible, just not at our reach yet?
I wish I could live to see that...
Imagine the possibilities. Colonizing new H-congruous planets, finding other planets full of natural resources, mitigating the pressure on our Earth.
We could well solve almost all of our major environmental problems with that!

Somewhere I´ve read that Quantum Computers, once mature, will make lots of things possible, translating theories into workable technology thanks to their higher computational capabilities.
Maybe that´s the key. Once a much more powerful class of computers will be available, lots of new technologies will be developed. It might well be the next industrial revolution .
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
Are we talking seriously here? I mean, is this whole concept of the faster than light travel real?

It's only a concept, we probably are still some 100 years away from real space travel.

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
Is the theory confirmed and it´s just a matter of putting theory into practice?

People are actually doing research about warp technology.

I watched a documentary last year, a scientist claimed to have proven warp technology in his lab. It was a very small experiment though, and we have yet to overcome many issues to build a warp core and a real space ship. And there's money as well, building such star ship will be extremely expensive and putting all that payload into orbit ain't cheap.

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
Imagine the possibilities. Colonizing new H-congruous planets, finding other planets full of natural resources, mitigating the pressure on our Earth.

Not so fast   Even when we have successfully build our first star ship and fly to Alpha Centauri (our closest solar system) within two weeks, it will still take quite some time to reach the outer solar systems within our universe. And flying to other universe (if there are any) will still be impossible.

Travelling at high speed is nice to visit the closest systems. But we will eventually need something else to fully explore the universe, think about other dimensions or black holes (some believe our universe was created in a black hole from another universe so black holes could lead to other universes).

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
So wormhole

Wormholes are unstable, unpredictable and therefore not suitable for space travel.
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tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:40 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):

It cannot be done faster than the speed of light.

If C is constant, it has been done faster than the speed of light. Of course nothing was moving faster than the speed of light, just the space between those objects got bigger. The Warp drive would make that space smaller again.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
However, scientists believe the speed of light has changed over time.

Scientists are looking into the possibility of C not being constant. However, afaik there is just one measurement made at the Keck Observatory indicating that physical constants might actually have been changing, but by no amount that would be of any significance for the topic at hand. Something like 0.001% in 10 Billion years.
However, other measurements, like at the Oklo mine, at Paranal or in lab experiments show no indication of changing physical constants.

Everything that is at least 29 Billion Lightyears away from us, more than half the observable universe, has been moving faster than light using a cosmic space-time distortion drive. And if nature can do it, we can do it. We just have to figure out how.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
PhilBy
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:49 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 13):
Imagine the possibilities. Colonizing new H-congruous planets, finding other planets full of natural resources, mitigating the pressure on our Earth.
We could well solve almost all of our major environmental problems with that!

I can already see the US task force to democratise those oil bearing planets.

At 45 billion light years away it would only take an assault team 4.5 billion years to reach them at 10c speed. It's a pity we haven't yet developed cryogenics.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 7:57 pm

Quoting PhilBy (Reply 16):
At 45 billion light years away it would only take an assault team 4.5 billion years to reach them at 10c speed. It's a pity we haven't yet developed cryogenics.

If the metric expansion of space is in deed accelerating as it is our current understanding, 10C speed my not be enough to ever reach a system that is now 45 billion lightyears away  

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:36 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
If C is constant, it has been done faster than the speed of light.

Agreed, but:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
Scientists are looking into the possibility of C not being constant.

We have yet to prove C is not being constant. And:

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
However, afaik there is just one measurement made at the Keck Observatory indicating that physical constants might actually have been changing, but by no amount that would be of any significance for the topic at hand.

I think we need more experiments.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 15):
And if nature can do it, we can do it. We just have to figure out how.

Do you mean a way to accelerate to the speed of light without adding infinite energy?

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 17):
If the metric expansion of space is in deed accelerating as it is our current understanding, 10C speed my not be enough to ever reach a system that is now 45 billion lightyears away

That's also one of the reasons why I believe that speed is not the real answer for space travel. It's a nice start though.

[Edited 2014-06-13 13:37:07]
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
We have yet to prove C is not being constant.

I do believe c is constant

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 18):
Do you mean a way to accelerate to the speed of light without adding infinite energy?

The universe has only finite energy and is hauling a lot of stuff around at FTL speeds it seems.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:27 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):
I do believe c is constant

Fair enough.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 19):
The universe has only finite energy and is hauling a lot of stuff around at FTL speeds it seems.

Alright.

Now when will the next Einstein arrive.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:55 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 20):
Now when will the next Einstein arrive

I am guessing he/she is in school already. Cosmology has a surprising pace.

Best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
nomadd22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 13, 2014 10:45 pm

As far as the speed of light changing, it sort of can't. Everything being relative, you have to choose one thing to measure all others against. And the speed of light is the most basic thing we can figure. Everything else is measured against it. It's such a basic part of existence, that if you could change it by 1/100th of a percent, it's not likely matter and space as we live in it could survive. Everything is tied to it.
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Eagleboy
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:59 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 2):
But i guess before we start designing the livery we might want t figure out if space time is flat or not or other details like that..

Why not make the mock-up Red? Doesn't red go faster?
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 11:22 am

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 22):
And the speed of light is the most basic thing we can figure. Everything else is measured against it.

Aside of that not being correct, we have more than just c, fine-structure constant α for example, but that is not the point. Unless you are in fact the sought after next Einstein, and just figured out why the values of the physical constants have the values they have, we don´t KNOW that they are constant, we just assume because we don´t see them change. But that doesn´t proof that they have always been the same. It may be a good indication.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 22):
that if you could change it by 1/100th of a percent, it's not likely matter and space as we live in it could survive.

While even a little change of α would certainly be noticeable, but if c would change, even drastically, unless we do measure ... we wouldn´t notice. Of course we do measure the speed of light all the time since about 100 years, and everyone thats using GPS getting lost in a hurry would also be a pointer as to a changed value of c . But in 1675, the year before we measured c for the first time, its value could have been jumping up and down w/o us having any chance of noticing it.

Quoting Eagleboy (Reply 23):

Why not make the mock-up Red? Doesn't red go faster?

red is always faster. Maybe we should add some acceleration holes as well....

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
steman
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:37 pm

Who was talking about other Universes? I would´t even leave this Galaxy. I would just start explore the closest star systems in this branch of the Milky Way. No need to go billions of light years away. Something within few tens of light years.
Think of all the exoplanets that have been recently found out.
They are not far. Some of those can be H-congruous and suitable for exploitation.
Yes, I know...we can have warp technology but we still have to find a cheap and efficient way to get in and out of the gravity well.
Going back with my feet firmly on the ground, I do believe that we have the potential to leave this Planet and go explore and colonise other objects. We just need that something special that will make this possible.
Quantum Computers might just help us finding it.
 
PlayLoud
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 3:48 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 25):
Who was talking about other Universes? I would´t even leave this Galaxy.

Agreed. With over 100 billion stars in this galaxy alone, it would be a long time before we ran out of things to explore in the Milky Way.
 
nomadd22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 5:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 24):
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 22):
And the speed of light is the most basic thing we can figure. Everything else is measured against it.

Aside of that not being correct, we have more than just c, fine-structure constant α for example, but that is not the point. Unless you are in fact the sought after next Einstein, and just figured out why the values of the physical constants have the values they have, we don´t KNOW that they are constant, we just assume because we don´t see them change. But that doesn´t proof that they have always been the same. It may be a good indication.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 22):
that if you could change it by 1/100th of a percent, it's not likely matter and space as we live in it could survive.

While even a little change of α would certainly be noticeable, but if c would change, even drastically, unless we do measure ... we wouldn´t notice. Of course we do measure the speed of light all the time since about 100 years, and everyone thats using GPS getting lost in a hurry would also be a pointer as to a changed value of c . But in 1675, the year before we measured c for the first time, its value could have been jumping up and down w/o us having any chance of noticing it.

Your back of the cereal box physics might sound good to the average reader, but you obviously don't really understand the concept of "constant" and definitely don't understand the extremely fine balance that has to persist in the quantum world for anything to work the way it does. There are dozens of values in physics, all tied to how fast a photon propagates, that have to remain "constant" to within 10 or more decimal places.
Anon
 
tommy1808
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 27):

Your back of the cereal box physics might sound good to the average reader,

thats so cute, but lets see:

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 27):
and definitely don't understand the extremely fine balance that has to persist in the quantum world for anything to work the way it does. There are dozens of values in physics, all tied to how fast a photon propagates, that have to remain "constant" to within 10 or more decimal places.

So, you are saying that a*b*c=5 has only one solution with exactly one value of a, b & c? While the math required for cosmological physics is in deed way over my head, my understanding reaches far enough to grasp that there are infinite values for a, b and c that leave to the result 5.

But since i learned everything i know about physics while being bored at breakfast, don´t trust me, trust an expert. How about Michael Faraday Prize winner and Cambridge university professor for math and theoretical physics John D. Barrow:

Quote:
At first we might be tempted to think that a world in which the speed of light was slower would be a different world. But this would be a mistake. If c, h, and e were all changed so that the values they have in metric (or any other) units were different when we looked them up in our tables of physical constants, but the value of α remained the same, this new world would be observationally indistinguishable from our World.

I guess next time i see her i will thank my mom for buying the right brand of cereal.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
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KarelXWB
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 14, 2014 8:05 pm

Quoting steman (Reply 25):
Who was talking about other Universes? I would´t even leave this Galaxy. I would just start explore the closest star systems in this branch of the Milky Way. No need to go billions of light years away. Something within few tens of light years.

Let there be no mistake: warp technology will be a huge step forward and will allow us to visit the closest systems during the first few decades after discovering the technology. That doesn't change the fact that mankind are explorers and we will eventually want to explore everything there to explore. And for that, we will need something else in the long-term. Some places are simply not reachable by increasing speed.

Quoting steman (Reply 25):
I do believe that we have the potential to leave this Planet and go explore and colonise other objects.

Yes I'm convinced about that. If you look at the evolution of mankind, exploring the galaxy is only logical.

[Edited 2014-06-14 13:08:31]
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FSXJunkie
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:24 am

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 10):
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 9):
since even a perfectly efficient anti matter powered reaction drive would take insane amounts of power to get to and from near light.

Isn't that just a matter of time before someone finds a solution for this issue? I'm not talking about cheating our laws of nature. Harold White claims to have found a solution for the huge power source required for his warp ship. Of course, he has yet to provide the proof.

Orion Pulse Drives can use antimatter "charges" (Matter/Antimatter "bomb") low end calcs being 50% the speed of light, 80% high end. The only problem is having enough antimatter (stuff's a net energy loss to produce.) Getting to Alpha Centaur inside a decade isn't too bad (especially since pulse drives don't have mass limits, bigger the ship the more efficient the drive works.)
 
nomadd22
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:53 pm

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 28):
At first we might be tempted to think that a world in which the speed of light was slower would be a different world. But this would be a mistake. If c, h, and e were all changed so that the values they have in metric (or any other) units were different when we looked them up in our tables of physical constants, but the value of α remained the same, this new world would be observationally indistinguishable from our World.

Casual speculation of conditions in another universe are irrelevant to light speed being variable. In any universe, those constants have to maintain an exact relationship for matter to exist all.
And, Google is just the cereal box of today for pretend experts.
Anon
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Mon Jun 23, 2014 7:48 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 14):
Not so fast Even when we have successfully build our first star ship and fly to Alpha Centauri (our closest solar system) within two weeks, it will still take quite some time to reach the outer solar systems within our universe. And flying to other universe (if there are any) will still be impossible.

Travelling at high speed is nice to visit the closest systems. But we will eventually need something else to fully explore the universe, think about other dimensions or black holes (some believe our universe was created in a black hole from another universe so black holes could lead to other universes).

no need to look further than our own galaxy (at least not for a millennia! If you think in terms of Star Trek they have only explored part of 1/4 of our galaxy (the Alpha Quadrant with the exception of Voyager). Now based on the 2 week time frame mentioned in this design to reach alpha centauri we can work out that it is a Warp 4 capable spaceship. The scale is exponential and tops out at 10 which I think is about 500x faster than warp 4 and as mentioned they have only really explore red part of 1/4 of our galaxy. Our galaxy alone is millions of stars and potentially millions of habitable planets.
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rwessel
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RE: Warp Drive Starship

Mon Jun 23, 2014 10:37 pm

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 32):
The scale is exponential and tops out at 10 which I think is about 500x faster than warp 4 and as mentioned they have only really explore red part of 1/4 of our galaxy.

The old scale (ST:TOS) was polynomial (C*(wf**3)), so warp factor 4 was 64C and warp 10 was 1000C (~16 times faster). In ST:TNG they changed it so that warp 10 was the theoretical maximum, and essentially infinite velocity, and warp 9.2 was somewhere around 10,000C, and 9.8 ~100,000C, while keeping the old lower warp factors roughly similar to those in the earlier series.

Of course they continued to play fast-and-loose with that...
 
Sooner787
Posts: 2777
Joined: Thu Jul 18, 2013 1:44 am

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:27 pm

I bet Dr Sheldon Cooper could solve this riddle   
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12613
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:42 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 12):
It cannot be done faster than the speed of light. However, scientists believe the speed of light has changed over time.

In my understanding, metric expansion of space can and does happen faster than the speed of light (though really, the speed of light doesn't have any real bearing on said metric expansion). Stolen from Wikipedia, which aligns with my understanding:

While special relativity constrains objects in the universe from moving faster than light with respect to each other when they are in a local, dynamical relationship, it places no theoretical constraint on the relative motion between two objects that are globally separated and out of causal contact. It is thus possible for two objects to become separated in space by more than the distance light could have travelled, which means that, if the expansion remains constant, the two objects will never come into causal contact. For example, galaxies that are more than approximately 4.5 gigaparsecs away from us are expanding away from us faster than light.

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 11):

The Universe is about 14 Billion years old and has a 45 billion lightyear diameter.

45 billion light year radius for the observable universe.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
nomadd22
Posts: 1572
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2008 7:42 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:54 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 35):

In my understanding, metric expansion of space can and does happen faster than the speed of light (though really, the speed of light doesn't have any real bearing on said metric expansion). Stolen from Wikipedia, which aligns with my understanding:

There's no real firm guess as to how big the universe is. All we can really know about is the observable universe, which is defined as that part which apparently isn't receding from us at more than light speed. The whole thing could be trillions of times as large, with the farthest reaches receding at trillions of times the speed of light.
It's actually even more complicated, since the expansion rate of the universe has been accelerating. The farthest galaxies we see now are actually receding at greater than light speed. Just not "apparently" receding that fast.
Anon
 
jollo
Posts: 401
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:24 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Thu Jun 26, 2014 12:19 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 36):
All we can really know about is the observable universe, which is defined as that part which apparently isn't receding from us at more than light speed
Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 36):
The farthest galaxies we see now are actually receding at greater than light speed

Aren't these two sentences contradicting each other (my emphases)?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:36 am

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 35):
45 billion light year radius for the observable universe.

Thank you for the correction. That does make the point even better though.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6
 
PlayLoud
Posts: 70
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 7:46 am

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Fri Jun 27, 2014 7:39 pm

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 35):
45 billion light year radius for the observable universe.

This doesn't sound right. If the universe is 13.8 billion years old (per Neil DeGrasse Tyson on Cosmos), shouldn't the observable universe only have a radius of 13.8 billion light-years? The universe itself may be bigger (inflation theory), but we should only be able to see light from a maximum of 13.8 billion light-years away. Any further, and the light would not have had time to travel here.
 
vikkyvik
Posts: 12613
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Sat Jun 28, 2014 1:48 am

Quoting PlayLoud (Reply 39):
This doesn't sound right. If the universe is 13.8 billion years old (per Neil DeGrasse Tyson on Cosmos), shouldn't the observable universe only have a radius of 13.8 billion light-years? The universe itself may be bigger (inflation theory), but we should only be able to see light from a maximum of 13.8 billion light-years away. Any further, and the light would not have had time to travel here.

It's a (slightly confusing) quirk with terminology. "Observable Universe" deals with how far away objects actually are right now. So, light that is just reaching us now has a light-travel distance of 13.8 billion years. But in the intervening time since the light started on its journey, the object has moved much farther away due to the expansion of space (and this expansion happens faster than the speed of light over great distances). So said object would be around 45 billion light-years away from us now.

Objects that are currently farther than 45 billion years away are currently invisible, as there hasn't been enough time for the light from them to reach us.

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 36):

There's no real firm guess as to how big the universe is. All we can really know about is the observable universe, which is defined as that part which apparently isn't receding from us at more than light speed. The whole thing could be trillions of times as large, with the farthest reaches receding at trillions of times the speed of light.
It's actually even more complicated, since the expansion rate of the universe has been accelerating. The farthest galaxies we see now are actually receding at greater than light speed. Just not "apparently" receding that fast.

All I was talking about was the observable universe. And actually, objects in the observable universe are receding faster than light (they pretty much have to, to be 45 billion light-years away after only 13.8 billion years). But their light was emitted at a time when the receding was such that it took 13.8 billion years for the light to reach us.
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
Alfons
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jul 02, 2014 8:55 pm

Are you guys payed by Christopher Nolan from Interstellar? Isn't that a bit early, the movie supposed to be out only end of the year.  
 
Alfons
Posts: 315
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Wed Jul 02, 2014 9:01 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 29):
Yes I'm convinced about that. If you look at the evolution of mankind, exploring the galaxy is only logical.

Lately I started to doubt that. The latest evolution shows mankind more and more trying to explore how deep a bank account can become.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 14435
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

RE: Warp Drive Starship

Mon Jul 21, 2014 1:55 pm

Quoting nomadd22 (Reply 31):

Casual speculation of conditions in another universe are irrelevant to light speed being variable. In any universe, those constants have to maintain an exact relationship for matter to exist all.
And, Google is just the cereal box of today for pretend experts.

Since the math is over my head as i stated from the start, i ask Professor Barrow directly:

Quote:
Dear Thomas, If c,h,e were chnaged leaving alpha the same we would
be able to detect that by observing the weak or strong interaction
effects since they have an analogue quantity g^2/hc where g is the
strong 'charge' and this would change. John

further asking if nothing can be changed w/o negating the very existence of matter and life as you claim he replied today:

Quote:
If the changes were big enough they would be noticeable and yet need not be big enough to make life impossble. As the changes get bigger more drastic things occur.
John

Hence, small changed in our universe are possible w/o us being able to detect i in our environment.

Glad we have that settled.

best regards
Thomas
Well, there is prophecy in the bible after all: 2 Timothy 3:1-6

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