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csturdiv
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F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 7:52 am

I saw on a BBC story about the targeted strikes against ISIS in Syria and Iraq and it mentioned that the F-22 was used. Would this be the first combat mission for the F-22?
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Ozair
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:02 am

Quoting csturdiv (Thread starter):
Would this be the first combat mission for the F-22?

As stated here.

The stealth F-22 Raptor took part in the mission, a U.S. defense official said, marking the first time the pricey, controversial aircraft has been used in a combat operation.
http://7online.com/news/tomahawk-mis...n-strikes-on-isis-in-syria/320317/

It is an odd choice really. The Syrian government are cooperating and ISIL has nothing that can seriously threaten a medium alt bombing campaign, the only type of campaign that an F-22 would participate in. Given it lacks a targeting pod and the ability to self lase it is probably being assisted by other aircraft, guys on the ground or more likely targeting fixed locations with GPS weapons.
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:21 am

At least, real data from real missions is trickling in...


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windy95
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 1):
The stealth F-22 Raptor took part in the mission, a U.S. defense official said, marking the first time the pricey, controversial aircraft has been used in a combat operation.
http://7online.com/news/tomahawk-mis...n-strikes-on-isis-in-syria/320317/

It is an odd choice really. The Syrian government are cooperating and ISIL has nothing that can seriously threaten a medium alt bombing campaign, the only type of campaign that an F-22 would participate in. Given it lacks a targeting pod and the ability to self lase it is probably being assisted by other aircraft, guys on the ground or more likely targeting fixed locations with GPS weapons.

it does not specify that the F-22 dropped weapons. Just that it operated in a combat mission. It could of been providing air cover..
 
redflyer
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 6:02 pm

Gotta fire your weapon at some point, if nothing else than to obtain real-life data and validate models.

I remember when Bush 41 ordered the invasion of Panama in 1989 the F-117 was deployed in support of the operation. At the time it seemed odd to deploy such a high-value asset for such a relatively low-threat combat environment ("low-threat" in this context means a combat scenario that could easily be handled with conventional air operations).
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:22 pm

It's a strange world, while the Syrians won't be sad to see air strikes on ISIS, I doubt they wanted, in any instance, for the US to do?
Russia warned the US not to as well.
Given that, it is then possible that US aircraft over Syria might be targets for the Syrian's unsuppressed AD systems.
Enter the F-22.

The other day, we saw French AF Rafale strikes against ISIS in Iraq, who'd have thought it?
(On the other hand, they won't feel tainted by Iraq in 2003, which is limiting the UK role there, after Cameron could not carry Parliament last year against Syria. It's also to a degree limiting the US too, at least with ground forces in a combat role. Which might be no bad thing. Ultimately, Iraq has to get it act together. Saudi AD Tornado's also engaged over Iraq it's reported too).
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:36 pm

I was wondering if any US Naval aircraft were involved,

but since we only have 1 carrier in the region and it's

cruising somewhere in "Gonzo Station" , they'd

have to dispatch a 2nd carrier to the eastern Med

to get within range of Syrian targets   
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:22 pm

This report says 300 airmen from the 122nd FW will deploy to the ME next month.....

http://www.journalgazette.net/articl...0140917/NEWS03/140919553/1006/news

Quote:
"FORT WAYNE – More than 300 members of Fort Wayne's Air National Guard base will head to the Mideast for six months beginning in October.

They are not specifically being sent as part of President Barack Obama's plan to launch an air war against the militant Islamic State in Iraq and Syria. But it sounds as though they could end up taking part.

[.....]

Myers said 12 of the 21 A-10 combat jets flown by the Fort Wayne base would be part of the deployment.

'I don't know of a time in Blacksnake history we have taken this kind of aviation footprint forward,' Col. Patrick Renwick, the new commander of the 122nd Fighter Wing, said in a statement. 'The A-10 ‘Warthog’ is uniquely suited for the Combatant Commander's needs, and the Blacksnakes are the right team to bring that capability to combat."



The high-tech 'Hog would definitely be in its element there.....

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[Edited 2014-09-23 14:58:03]
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csturdiv
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Tue Sep 23, 2014 11:59 pm

Regardless if it has seen combat or just providing support in the theater, it is nice to hear the F-22 is finally getting it's feet wet in active duty, other than chasing away the random Tu-95s and others that get near Alaska. I have always loved the F-22 and loved it even more when I saw it on display several years ago at the Chicago Air & Water Show in it's solo performance in again in a heritage flyby formation with a F-15 and I think a P-51.
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ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 2:32 am

Quoting GDB (Reply 5):
Given that, it is then possible that US aircraft over Syria might be targets for the Syrian's unsuppressed AD systems.

Even over Iraq, there has been some damage reported to USAF aircraft:

http://www.worldtribune.com/2014/09/...i-aircaft-batteries-captured-iraq/

Quote:
Western diplomatic sources said ISIL struck at least one U.S. aircraft. They said an F-15 fighter-jet was hit by ISIL fire in late August that damaged the hydraulic system and forced the aircraft to land in neighboring Turkey.
 
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Revelation
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 4:09 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
At least, real data from real missions is trickling in...

Real missions that one had no real role in, other than to jump in should the most unlikely of situations occur, and a role that other assets would have no difficulty dealing with?
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:15 am

I'm surprised they aren't using the F-35. It was designed to be a multirole platform.

But I'm glad the F-22 is getting some action. Maybe this will wake up congress to order more of the pure air supiority fighter instead of having one aircraft, take over the role of 5.

BTW, how does an F-35 hold in a dogfight of, say, a MiG-35, Su-35, or even a Eurofighter compared to an F-22 and an F-15 against the same aircraft?
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 9:52 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
I'm surprised they aren't using the F-35. It was designed to be a multirole platform.

Its (still) not in operational service yet.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
BTW, how does an F-35 hold in a dogfight of, say, a MiG-35, Su-35, or even a Eurofighter compared to an F-22 and an F-15 against the same aircraft?

Can you say 'dead meat' ?
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 10:48 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Can you say 'dead meat' ?

Nice to hear. There are rumors that FAF (Finnish Air Force) will replace it's F/A-18's whit the F-35.
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PlayLoud
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 6:06 pm

The F-35 will use its stealth advantage to hopefully avoid a dogfight with any of those aircraft. If it works as designed, it will shoot down those planes before they get close.

Back on topic. I read the F-22's dropped 1000 lbs JDAM bombs.

http://www.airforcemag.com/DRArchive...%202014/F-22s%27-First-Action.aspx

Quote:
F-22 Raptors assigned to the 1st Fighter Wing at JB Langley-Eustis, Va., and deployed to the Persian Gulf region, took out an ISIS command and control center in Ar Raqqah, Syria, Monday night, marking the first time the fifth generation fighters have been used in combat, confirmed Air Force and Defense Department officials. Joint Staff Director of Operations Army Lt. Gen. William Mayville told reporters Tuesday the F-22s used GPS-aided munitions to target the command and control facility located in northern Syria, about 75 miles from the Turkish border. Mayville displayed before-and-after photos of the target building, explaining that the F-22s were successful in destroying only the one end that targeteers wanted to hit. Mayville said US Central Command's combined air and space operations center chose the platforms used in the attack based on "what was available" in the region. The stealthy F-22s are principally intended for air superiority, but also have an attack capability. Officials familiar with the program told Air Force Magazine the Raptors involved in the strikes dropped 1,000-pound Joint Direct Attack Munitions. USAF F-22s are capable of carrying two 1,000-pound JDAMs. Some also are equipped to carry eight Small Diameter Bombs, though officials said the ones operating in the Middle East are not. Mayville said every effort was made to minimize collateral damage in the overnight airstrikes, noting DOD is "unaware" of any civilian casualties resulting from the attacks. Officials declined to release the exact number of F-22s involved in the strikes, citing operational security concerns.
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:15 pm

Hello all,

The F-22 was probably used primarily for it's stealth properties and kept high to keep it relatively safe from ground threats. If the F-35 were operational, I doubt it would have been used because if any were damaged in the strike, it would have been disaserous to the program and other nations that have ordered the plane would have cancelled orders at an alarming rate. The strike videos of the F-22 strike showed an alleged command structure that I suspect was vacant or semi occupied by the lack of activity or lack of vehicles anywhere near the structure and the result of the damage shows the building was either build like a brick out-house or the munitions were way too light for the job.
I applaud the decision to send the A-10 to the fight. It's high loiter time, ability to carry alot of munitions and that wonderful gun it possesses is what is needed to stomp on these idiots when they stick their heads out from hiding behind innocents and to support the Iraqi ground soldiers on the front lines, a job it has proven itself time and time again. Its probably the best thing than having American soldiers on the ground....
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:32 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Can you say 'dead meat' ?

This from the Air Force Times quoting Gen. Michael Hostage:
"If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.

I can't help but wonder if your appraisal of the F-35's yet-to-be-proven air-combat capabilities might be somewhat wide off the mark.
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Sep 24, 2014 8:48 pm

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
It could of been providing air cover..

It could have but the Syrian Air Force is almost non-existent.

Quoting Sooner787 (Reply 6):

but since we only have 1 carrier in the region

USN Super Hornets have been striking targets in Iraq from CVN-77.

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 11):
Maybe this will wake up congress to order more of the pure air supiority fighter

Never going to happen. The production line is long gone and F-22 development has slowed to a crawl. The program is limping towards Increment 3.2 and I doubt it will go beyond that.

Quoting PlayLoud (Reply 14):
The F-35 will use its stealth advantage to hopefully avoid a dogfight with any of those aircraft. If it works as designed, it will shoot down those planes before they get close.

And if it does have to dogfight, a similarly configured F-35 to its opponents will more than hold its own.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
The F-22 was probably used primarily for it's stealth properties and kept high to keep it relatively safe from ground threats.

I doubt Stealth had much to do with it. F-15Es were also flying strikes and one thing the F-15 is not is stealthy.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
If the F-35 were operational, I doubt it would have been used because if any were damaged in the strike, it would have been disaserous to the program and other nations that have ordered the plane would have cancelled orders at an alarming rate.

If the F-35 were operational, what would be the point of developing the jet if you didn't use it for its intended purpose? This type of mission would be something the F-35 would excel at. It would have a longer loiter time than any other Coalition fighter jet and have immensely better situation awareness.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
The strike videos of the F-22 strike showed an alleged command structure that I suspect was vacant or semi occupied

That should be no surprise, as I said above the F-22 is pretty limited in its capability to strike ground targets.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
I applaud the decision to send the A-10 to the fight. It's high loiter time, ability to carry alot of munitions and that wonderful gun it possesses is what is needed to stomp on these idiots when they stick their heads out from hiding behind innocents and to support the Iraqi ground soldiers on the front lines, a job it has proven itself time and time again.

The A-10 will likely spend 99.9% of its flight time at 20k AGL or higher. The most prolific threat in Syria would be AAA, all the videos of ISIL show fighters and technicals equipped with significant numbers of 14.5 and 23mm weapons. Why go into that threat zone if you don't need to?
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 3:32 am

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
I applaud the decision to send the A-10 to the fight.

You must know something no one else does...there has been no decision to send the A-10 into the fight. Not to mention it would be a poor choice to use for striking buildings.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
The F-22 was probably used primarily for it's stealth properties and kept high to keep it relatively safe from ground threats.

I doubt Stealth had much to do with it. F-15Es were also flying strikes and one thing the F-15 is not is stealthy.

Agreed...and since they were flying from the same base in the UAE, it could have been just to try it out to be honest...lol

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
The strike videos of the F-22 strike showed an alleged command structure that I suspect was vacant or semi occupied

That should be no surprise, as I said above the F-22 is pretty limited in its capability to strike ground targets.

A moving ground target maybe....anything else, not really limited at all when its just sitting there.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 5:05 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
The A-10 will likely spend 99.9% of its flight time at 20k AGL or higher. The most prolific threat in Syria would be AAA, all the videos of ISIL show fighters and technicals equipped with significant numbers of 14.5 and 23mm weapons. Why go into that threat zone if you don't need to?

And we have seen ISIL armed with MANPAD's and other nasty weapons, such as ZPU-23-4 Shika's. Don't forget whatever else they may have captured from Syrian Army depots.
 
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teme82
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:18 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
The A-10 will likely spend 99.9% of its flight time at 20k AGL or higher. The most prolific threat in Syria would be AAA, all the videos of ISIL show fighters and technicals equipped with significant numbers of 14.5 and 23mm weapons. Why go into that threat zone if you don't need t

Remember the videos from first Gulf War where A-10 came back to base missing half of it's wing? I think they can take a beating but they also give a beating. The main cannon is one of them with it's not so nice depleted uranium ammo.
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Max Q
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:37 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 16):
This from the Air Force Times quoting Gen. Michael Hostage:
"If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.

I can't help but wonder if your appraisal of the F-35's yet-to-be-proven air-combat capabilities might be somewhat wide off the mark.

Not according to Gen. Hostage who you quote above yourself !
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windy95
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 11:53 am

Quoting mrg (Reply 16):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):
Can you say 'dead meat' ?

This from the Air Force Times quoting Gen. Michael Hostage:
"If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.

I can't help but wonder if your appraisal of the F-35's yet-to-be-proven air-combat capabilities might be somewhat wide off the mark.

You do realise that your quote actually makes MaxQ's point. That the F-35 is not a dog fighter but a overpriced dump truck..
 
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:23 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):

I doubt Stealth had much to do with it. F-15Es were also flying strikes and one thing the F-15 is not is stealthy.

Question I have is what is the sound signature difference between the F-22 to F15. Sure, after the first bomb hits, the sound signature would not make a difference. But if you are looking at the first strike, it would be advantageous to be quieter even though your radar stealth capability is not needed.

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
I applaud the decision to send the A-10 to the fight.

The decision to send the A-10 (from the article) was made long before the current campaign was envisioned. But once there, pretty sure they would be used effectively. Specially to support forces on the ground and they try to push ISIL back to the Syrian border.

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moo
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 1:48 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
The production line is long gone and F-22 development has slowed to a crawl

While I generally agree the production line will never be restarted, when it was closed down Lockheed went to huge efforts to reduce restart costs, including taking detailed video and 3D captures of all manual processes involved, video interviews with every production line member who had a role in producing the aircraft detailing exactly how they did their jobs, and huge manuals on everything involved in production.

And thats on top of mothballing the jigs and toolings for long term storage rather than destroying them.

The production line could certainly be restarted if Congress wanted it to be.
 
rtfm
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 7:00 pm

Quoting kraz911 (Reply 15):
or the munitions were way too light for the job.

Depends on your intention... My guess is those were SDBs - and you don't need to level a building to kill or wound all/most of those inside. Blast, overpressure and fragments will do that, epscially in confined spaces. And there are advantages in seriously wounding rather than killing.
 
Ozair
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:39 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 18):

A moving ground target maybe....anything else, not really limited at all when its just sitting there.

I guess my commets are more focused on the lack of integrated A2G ordnance as well as no integrated targeting pod. Most of the F-22 fleet are only capable of dropping the GBU-32 with only a few SDB capable. No EO/IIR targeting pod limits them to GPS and radar self designated targets only.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 12):

Can you say 'dead meat' ?
Quoting mrg (Reply 16):

This from the Air Force Times quoting Gen. Michael Hostage:
"If I do not keep that F-22 fleet viable, the F-35 fleet frankly will be irrelevant. The F-35 is not built as an air superiority platform. It needs the F-22,” says Hostage to Air Force Times.

I can't help but wonder if your appraisal of the F-35's yet-to-be-proven air-combat capabilities might be somewhat wide off the mark.
Quoting Ozair (Reply 17):
And if it does have to dogfight, a similarly configured F-35 to its opponents will more than hold its own.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 22):
You do realise that your quote actually makes MaxQ's point. That the F-35 is not a dog fighter but a overpriced dump truck..

If we really want to have this discussion, start another threat and we can all go over again the same facts that make it very clear on the capabilities of the F-35. Lets keep this thread about the F-22.

Quoting teme82 (Reply 20):

Remember the videos from first Gulf War where A-10 came back to base missing half of it's wing? I think they can take a beating but they also give a beating. The main cannon is one of them with it's not so nice depleted uranium ammo.

And what good going forward is an A-10 missing half a wing? F-18s and F-15s have also returned to base missing large segments of their wings. It doesn't change the fact that the air campaign in Iraq and Syria will be almost entirely conducted from medium altitudes due to threat considerations.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 23):
Question I have is what is the sound signature difference between the F-22 to F15. Sure, after the first bomb hits, the sound signature would not make a difference. But if you are looking at the first strike, it would be advantageous to be quieter even though your radar stealth capability is not needed.

Marginal difference if at all and probably in favour of the F-22. F-22 and F-15 are close enough in both AB and mil but the F-22 is a significantly more aerodynamic airframe and probably requires less thrust,and therefore less noise, to fly to profile.

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/JetEngineNoiseApr2009.gif

Either way, both aircraft are dropping weapons from at least medium altitude, weapons that will glide to the target from a significant distance and time. I highly doubt jet engine noise in Syria is going to be an effective method of avoiding air attack.

Quoting moo (Reply 24):

While I generally agree the production line will never be restarted,

Sure the production gear and knowledge has all been saved but the chance of it being restarted is about as close to zero as you can get. The airframe is unaffordable, even for the largest and best funded air force in the world.

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
The production line could certainly be restarted if Congress wanted it to be.

At what cost? The US would have to be in a war of national survival to restart the line and even then the business case is questionable.

Has there been any other airframe in the last 30 years that ended production after only 183 airframes that has been restarted?

Quoting RTFM (Reply 25):

Depends on your intention... My guess is those were SDBs

The F-22s based in theater are not equipped to use SDBs.

Quoting PlayLoud (Reply 14):
USAF F-22s are capable of carrying two 1,000-pound JDAMs. Some also are equipped to carry eight Small Diameter Bombs, though officials said the ones operating in the Middle East are not.
 
Max Q
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 2:46 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 26):
At what cost? The US would have to be in a war of national survival to restart the line and even then the business case is questionable.

Has there been any other airframe in the last 30 years that ended production after only 183 airframes that has been restarted?

No, but that's not the point.



When the F15's and F16's are all retired the USAF will be left with the remaining F22's from that production run as it's ONLY air superiority fighter and that's a very small force.



The F35 is an unproven strike aircraft, it's not a fighter by any stretch of the imagination, if there was a crisis requiring an expanded air superiority product the ability to restart the F22 line will be invaluable.



Whatever the cost, until the next true fighter is developed and in service.

[Edited 2014-09-25 20:06:40]
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mrg
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:51 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 21):
Not according to Gen. Hostage who you quote above yourself !

My apologies. I thought you meant that the Russian and West European fighters would be dead meat. A bit stupid of me....
 
ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 6:28 am

Quoting moo (Reply 24):
The production line could certainly be restarted if Congress wanted it to be.

The problem would be sub-contractors and other smaller contractors; they may no longer make or have the ability to make certain components on the F-22. In fact, that's what killed the F-22 in the first place; the avionics onboard the F-22 used the Intel i960MX chip, and Intel discontinued making the chip, as it was back then 3 generations obsolete. The USAF was able to buy enough chips to complete the last run of F-22's before they could buy no more.

In order for the USAF to restart production, it would have to fund an extremely expensive avionics upgrade and replacement program for the F-22. To get from increment 3.1 to 3.2 (which is just updating the current architecture) the USAF is looking at $8 billion dollars in development. Basically, even comparatively minor upgrades to the avionics (like integrating the AIM-9X or JHMCS) are costing billions.

Introducing a full fledged new avionics suite would be far more than that. The USAF isn't willing to sink that much money for a limited production run, when they could instead buy more F-35's instead.
 
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seahawk
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 7:10 am

F-22 is dated. F-35 has taken over.
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 9:32 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 29):
In order for the USAF to restart production, it would have to fund an extremely expensive avionics upgrade and replacement program for the F-22.

There was talk of having an export customer pay for the re-start of the line, in which case, the AF could get some more for less spending....
 
Max Q
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 10:00 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 30):
F-22 is dated. F-35 has taken over.

Most of the US defense budget, correct .

[Edited 2014-09-26 03:00:35]
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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windy95
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:58 am

Quoting seahawk (Reply 30):
F-35 has taken over.

An oversized chunk of the military budget. Putting all the eggs on a overpriced multi-role aircraft basket...

Quoting Ozair (Reply 26):
At what cost? The US would have to be in a war of national survival to restart the line and even then the business case is questionable.

Has there been any other airframe in the last 30 years that ended production after only 183 airframes that has been restarted?

No one cares about the cost of the F-35. It will still be cheaper that what a new build will cost when the wings start falling off the F-15's.
 
Ozair
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Fri Sep 26, 2014 4:57 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 27):

No, but that's not the point.

Actually it is the point. Restarting production lines is completely uneconomical.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 31):

There was talk of having an export customer pay for the re-start of the line, in which case, the AF could get some more for less spending....

The reality of that proposal is the following,

Designing an export version of Lockheed Martin Corp.’s radar-evading F-22 Raptor could cost more than $1 billion and be "prohibitively expensive" for any would-be foreign buyer, said Air Force Lt. Gen. Jeffrey Kohler, head of the Pentagon’s Defense Security Cooperation Agency.

"If (export) were to be considered, which it’s not, it essentially would have to be redesigned, rebuilt, retested and then go into production," Kohler, who oversees government-to-government arms sales, told Reuters in a brief interview.

Any redesign, Kohler said, would require degrading the aircraft’s capabilities and making them tamper-proof to keep the technology exclusive — a process he said would take years.

http://www.wired.com/2007/04/f22_not_for_sal/

Given the UAE paid US$3 Billion in dev costs for the F-16E I think the figure above is low.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 33):

No one cares about the cost of the F-35. It will still be cheaper that what a new build will cost when the wings start falling off the F-15's.

I have no idea what you're trying to say there in relation to my quote but when I do a google search for F-35 cost I get 313,000,000 results I assume you made a typo.
 
Max Q
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:03 am

Quoting Ozair (Reply 34):
Actually it is the point. Restarting production lines is completely uneconomical.

Incorrect, the financial cost is immaterial compared to the price of not being able to defend our interests.



That is precisely why L-Martin has prepared for this eventuality.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Sat Sep 27, 2014 9:57 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):


That is precisely why L-Martin has prepared for this eventuality.

Not exactly; the USAF kept the tooling. The USAF keeps production tooling for most of their aircraft and stores them as the US DoD owns the majority of the factories the aircraft are produced in. The contractors (Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, etc) just operate the factories involved under contract. This is called GOCO (Government Owned, Contractor Operated).
 
Max Q
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Sat Sep 27, 2014 10:26 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
Not exactly; the USAF kept the tooling. The USAF keeps production tooling for most of their aircraft and stores them as the US DoD owns the majority of the factories the aircraft are produced in. The contractors (Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, etc) just operate the factories involved under contract. This is called GOCO (Government Owned, Contractor Operated).

Ok,



Point is, production could be restarted.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Planeflyer
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Sun Sep 28, 2014 4:13 pm

Does anyone think the F22 is being used to counter the risk of green on blue incidents?
 
ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:22 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 37):
Point is, production could be restarted.

At great costs; looking at roughly a 50-100% premium depending on how big the production run is, and if the supply chain still exists. At that point, one could buy 3-4 F-35's for the price of one new production F-22.

Quoting Planeflyer (Reply 38):
Does anyone think the F22 is being used to counter the risk of green on blue incidents?

Not likely; the anti-Syrian rebels and Iraqi Army and militia don't have a very sophisticated air defence capability from whatever publicly available intelligence can provide. Whatever they do have is mostly portable equipment, such as towed AAA guns, and MANPAD's. At most, looking at self-propelled AAA systems, such as the ZPU-23 Shika, which the Syrians have a large number of, and have lost control of many.

What was more likely the axis of concern was the regular Syrian Army forces. With Syria having one of the most dense air defence networks in the region, the threat environment is pretty high. It is rapidly getting to the point that even backwater units like "ISIL" or "Russian separatists" can start to control air space from the ground. Thus, F-22's were needed to conduct penetration strikes deep in Syria, otherwise, one would have to assemble a large strike package to conduct SEAD, DEAD, and Air Superiority ahead and with the strike package.

And even then, you run the risk of disaster; the Package Q debacle during the first Gulf War is a great example of such a situation.
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 3:50 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 32):
Most of the US defense budget, correct

Guess you're not counting the US Navy, huh? That is most of the defense budget...by a LARGE margin.

Quoting Ozair (Reply 34):
The reality of that proposal is the following,.....

Absolutely true....

Quoting Max Q (Reply 35):
That is precisely why L-Martin has prepared for this eventuality.

Actually it was because the tooling on another 'project' was destroyed and then the government cried it needed some of it...which then had to be re-created. So, this time, the proposal was 'do the smart thing'...the government decides to keep tooling, etc., NOT the manufacturer.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 36):
the US DoD owns the majority of the factories the aircraft are produced in

Absolutely incorrect Sir.

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 39):
At great costs; looking at roughly a 50-100% premium depending on how big the production run is, and if the supply chain still exists. At that point, one could buy 3-4 F-35's for the price of one new production F-22.

True....don't you think that its funny that now people separate the design/manufacturing costs now vs the airframe cost? But the haters before melded those together....

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 39):
Thus, F-22's were needed to conduct penetration strikes deep in Syria, otherwise, one would have to assemble a large strike package to conduct SEAD, DEAD, and Air Superiority ahead and with the strike package.

Not at all...many different types were operating in the area. The Raptor's are deployed to the region, there is no reason (and VERY little risk) not to use them and test out the capabilities of the bombing system on real world targets.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 5:28 am

Quoting checksixx (Reply 40):
Absolutely incorrect Sir.

Incorrect; please review the DoD's GOCO program. There is a nice little list someone compiled here:

http://www.airforcebase.net/usaf/afp_list.html

FYI, here's the three major USAF-related sites:

United States Air Force Plant 42: Palmdale, California - Large Boeing, Lockheed Martin (home of the legendary Skunk Works), and Northrop Grumman presence
Noted Past projects: F-22, B-2 Spirit, Space Shuttle
Current projects: Globe Hawk

United States Air Force Plant 4: Fort Worth, TX - Operated by Lockheed Martin
Currently manufacturers F-16's and F-35's

United States Air Force Plant 6: Marietta, Georgia - Operated by Lockheed Martin
Currently manufacturers the C-130 Hercules
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:29 am

Quoting ThePointblank (Reply 41):
Incorrect; please review the DoD's GOCO program. There is a nice little list someone compiled here:

I don't need too....you said most of the plants were 'owned' by the government. That is NOT true...this is a fact, not my opinion. Never said anything about them not being designated as production sites for defense programs. I think you may be confused....owner's - NO, designated production plants for defense programs - YES.
 
Planeflyer
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 12:55 pm

I'm as concerned with our coalition partners as I am with Syrian forces
 
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bikerthai
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Mon Sep 29, 2014 1:23 pm

Quoting checksixx (Reply 40):
So, this time, the proposal was 'do the smart thing'...the government decides to keep tooling, etc., NOT the manufacturer.

There are "tooling" and there are "tooling", but yes, on the P-8A, any tooling that was specifically designed for the P-8A, and paid by the US government to built, belongs to the government. However, if the supplier decided to build tools for their own purpose and paid out of their own pocket, then it belongs to the supplier. In the case of the P-8A, any tooling that Boeing built to support both the P-8A and the regular 737 frames would belong to Boeing and would have been paid by Boeing.

Quoting checksixx (Reply 40):
Absolutely incorrect Sir.

Don't know if it makes a difference being a sub-contractor, but the old B-2 and F-22 wing lines at Boeing are Boeing property and the line has shut down. If you are going to re-build the F-22 you are going to have to find new autoclaves as the existing autoclaves have been taken over by Boeing Commercial. Who knows if that space will be available for F-22 work as Boeing will probably be busy using it to work on their back-log of commercial production and development work.


The other question is whether the sub-contractor will have any incentive in re-hashing the F-22 design. Much progress have been made in manufacturing to improve the design of the wings (learned from the F-32 and F-35). If you are to incorporate these advances, might as well design a new airplane . . . (and charge more money) . . .or even go to a pilot-less design where you can take advantage of higher maneuver loads.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
checksixx
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:22 am

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 44):
There are "tooling" and there are "tooling", but yes, on the P-8A, any tooling that was specifically designed for the P-8A, and paid by the US government to built, belongs to the government. However, if the supplier decided to build tools for their own purpose and paid out of their own pocket, then it belongs to the supplier. In the case of the P-8A, any tooling that Boeing built to support both the P-8A and the regular 737 frames would belong to Boeing and would have been paid by Boeing.

Correct...not sure why you quoted me, but ANY tooling specific to a govt aircraft is 'owned' by the govt. Tooling, as in the case you mention, that is brought over because its 737 specific is obviously not owned by the govt. Didn't think that needed to be explained, but apparently it does....
 
ThePointblank
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Sun Oct 05, 2014 5:42 am

The threat posed by ISIL against aircraft continues to be underscored by the recent shoot down of an Iraqi Mi-35 helicopter:

http://news.sky.com/story/1347009/he...er-shot-down-by-is-rocket-launcher

Quote:
Fighters from Islamic State have used a rocket launcher to shoot down an Iraqi military helicopter, officials have said.

The pilot and co-pilot of the Mil Mi-35 Hind aircraft were reportedly killed in the attack which happened between the towns of Beiji and al Senniyah in northern Iraq.

The shooting down of the helicopter showed the insurgents' ability to hit back against air operations by Iraqi authorities and the US-led coalition.
 
voodoo
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Wed Oct 08, 2014 5:45 pm

The current strikes on ISIL attacking Kobani on the Syria-Turkey border seem to be using B-1s.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/vid...-us-air-strikes-kobani-syria-video
` Yeaah! Baade 152! Trabi of the Sky! '
 
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bikerthai
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Oct 09, 2014 1:23 pm

The fight in Kobani really illustrate the limit of airpower. The ISIL forces do not concentrate enough to make good targets apart from a few gun trucks and tanks. Now if Turkey was to place a few artillery batteries near the area, and pound anything that moves (specially ISIL reinforcement moving in from near by area), then there would be no talk of town falling.


bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
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RE: F-22 Used In Targeted Isis Strikes

Thu Oct 09, 2014 8:09 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 48):
The fight in Kobani really illustrate the limit of airpower. The ISIL forces do not concentrate enough to make good targets apart from a few gun trucks and tanks.

There is also the limitation in weapons. Most of the weapons available from the fighter/attack aircraft are simply to big for most targets, limiting their ability to strike due to collateral damage concerns. Given the demonstrated capability of ISIL to shoot down helicopters the smaller weapons available from the UAVs may be the best option for the moment to tackle smaller concentrations of ISIL fighters from the air.

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