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SVJ77W
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Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:01 am

Will the President and Prime Minister soon be flying long overseas trips aboard Air India One or Air Force One?

The government is in the process of finding a replacement to the over two-decade-old Boeing 747 Jumbo Jets of Air India that have been used for long distance VVIP flights.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/i...VIP-plane/articleshow/45029870.cms

This will be very interesting times to eventually see a replacement for the ageing 744 currently used. I really wondering what could replace.

Your thoughts?
 
bjorn14
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:17 am

How about a 777? Just as much range but you'd have to cut some government flunkies from going on trips.
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SVJ77W
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:20 am

777 seems to be the best. A 77W to replace the 747 perhaps or is that two much plane or an A351.
 
migair54
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:32 am

Not long ago AI had some planes that they didn't know what to do with them, B77L, that was perfect plane for this kind of missions.

They can also get one of the B787 and reconfigure for VIP, I'm sure Boeing will be very interested in selling one of the early birds, AI operate B787 so pilots, technicians, Cabin crews, all will be in place already.

I don't see Modi and fruends going to buy something big, like a B748 or A380, they're trying to change all of the "craziness" from India government, even the number of people flying in the presidential plane has been reduce a lot.
 
briguychau
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:02 am

Maybe they'll ask Boeing for a free 787 for this purpose... you know, as compensation for all of AI's mishaps XD
 
PanHAM
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 10:42 am

What are they complaining? The POTUS still flies around in B747-200s.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
behramjee
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 11:46 am

They should just take the AI B772LRs and convert them for VIP usage !
 
Gr8Circle
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:20 pm

Quoting briguychau (Reply 4):
Maybe they'll ask Boeing for a free 787 for this purpose... you know, as compensation for all of AI's mishaps XD

Just a matter of time before the AI bashers show up anywhere   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
What are they complaining? The POTUS still flies around in B747-200s.

No one's complaining......the AI 744s that are currently used for VIP travel when required, are coming up on 20 years......by the time they identify a new plane to fit the bill and it actually arrives, another 3-5 years could elapse....that's what this is all about....what the POTUS flies has no relevance here....
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 1:46 pm

If Indian Air Force places this order, it will be the first step towards AI privatization. If AI places this order, saga continues.

There are still three B77Ws on order, which were rumored to be for VVIP transport. But I think by the time AI realized it ordered too many, those three were the only ones it could halt without incurring too much penalty.

I think they will go with 3xB748s. Though current B744s have some redundancy, they don't have self protection suites. I believe IAF brass was questioning twin jet use for long haul VVIP transport. Recent incidents like MH370, MH17 and all conflicts in the region solidifies their position.

Commercial B748i is cheaper than B77W. IAF spent $1B on 3xBBJs, so 3xB748s or 3xB77W will cost the same, close to $2 Billion. Fuel efficiency discussion is also irrelevant.

If India chooses B748i, its VVIP fleet will be
3xB748s
3xBBJs
4xEMB145s
12xMi17V5s
All posts are just opinions.
 
Eirules
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:12 pm

I hear there's a hardly used 787 in EWR that they could take off AI's hands
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:29 pm

G´day

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 7):
No one's complaining......the AI 744s that are currently used for VIP travel

- Not yet that is.

India has always aimed at having the transport needs of their President and Prime Minister to be at least the equal of whatever the President of the United States is using for the purpose. With no commercially available 5 or 6 engined aircraft available they had to settle for the Air India 747-400´s - beats the 747-200´s the US President is using.   

Rumors are that in the past they have considered the use of converted B 52´s for the purpose, though that was rejected due to the lack of wide body comfort, I believe there were also issues with obtaining Export Licences from the US and EXIM financing.

Those Air India 747´s are not going to last forever, so they will need to be replaced sooner rather than later. The Indian President and Prime Minister are not going to settle for a twin engined plane, unless the future transport of President of the United States is going to be single engined. While this may be environmentially desirable this is not going to happen. So India faces a dilemma of enormous proportions.   

What are the choices then?

Boeing B 747-8
This being the next transport for the US President, not going to happen, this needs to be topped off

Antonow AN 225
The single operating example is unlikely to become available anytime soon. The cost of completing the partially built second example would be prohibitive but it may prove to be a boost for the Ukrainian economy. But then again India needs more than one aircraft for the purpose and the AN 225 design is somewhat dated.

Airbus A 380
Definitely a class above the US President´s next transport. Plus there are two available at relatively short notice.Though the GoI or Air India logo - whatever they decide - is by far nor as goodlooking as the Kingfisher logo, it would still be a nice addition to the local fleet.   


Interesting times ahead

Cheers

Peter
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." (Albert Einstein, 1879 - 1955)
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:01 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
India has always aimed at having the transport needs of their President and Prime Minister to be at least the equal of whatever the President of the United States is using for the purpose. With no commercially available 5 or 6 engined aircraft available they had to settle for the Air India 747-400´s - beats the 747-200´s the US President is using.   

That explains why they ordered 12xAW101s even though there was no daily need for 3 engine chopper, other than once in 5 year trip to Siachen Glacier. If Finnmeccanica didn't screw up they would be using those by now. They have 3 unpacked AW101s.
All posts are just opinions.
 
PanHAM
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:04 pm

Quoting Gr8Circle (Reply 7):
No one's complaining......the AI 744s that are currently used for VIP travel when required,

Forgive my ignorance, how could I forget about the arrogance.

I do agree with Peter from Switzerland, that a set of brand new VVIP A380 are the only fitting transport for their Mejsties.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
JOYA380B747
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 5:18 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 8):
If Indian Air Force places this order, it will be the first step towards AI privatization. If AI places this order, saga continues.

I don't believe AI or IAF will place the order themselves. Its who shall maintain the aircrafts after procurement.
India's biggest loss w.r.t global aviation (so far) - Being an Australasia-Europe stopover.
 
LH707330
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:58 pm

The smart bet would be to pick up A345s. You satisfy the quad jet safety/SAM crowd, they're cheap, can fly anywhere on a tank of gas, and they look good. Now, if trumping the US is a goal, it'll be a 380 or 748.
 
YYZYYT
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:19 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 12):
that a set of brand new VVIP A380 are the only fitting transport for their Mejsties.

I see no reason why we should mock India's decision should they take the 748 or 380.

While I am not an expert on India by any stretch, I know that it has a popluation of 1 billion more or less, and is a major world economy (G-20, top 10 world-wide by GDP, and a major exporter of goods and services). Moreover, it faces immediate security issues that other countries / leaders do not face (both internal and external threats)...

The issue should never be "what do other ocuntries use" - some are content to fly VIP twin-jets, others just go commercial... but that doesn't mean that such a solution works for India as well. If the IAF thinks that 4 engines are adviseable, that sounds reasonable to me. Particularly if the cost difference between a 748 and 77W is minimal.
 
migair54
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:31 pm

B748 and A380 are very expansive machines, we are talking about plsnes that will in the hangar long period of time, so getting a second hand with low cicles will be the best option.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 14):

The smart bet would be to pick up A345s. You satisfy the quad jet safety/SAM crowd, they're cheap, can fly anywhere on a tank of gas, and they look good. Now, if trumping the US is a goal, it'll be a 380 or 748.


That's a very good idea, I'm sure they can find of them with not many hours in the market for not very high price. However I still think that operating B77L will make things much easier given that AI and 9W operate them, so pilots, training, spares... are easily available.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
Antonow AN 225
The single operating example is unlikely to become available anytime soon. The cost of completing the partially built second example would be prohibitive but it may prove to be a boost for the Ukrainian economy. But then again India needs more than one aircraft for the purpose and the AN 225 design is somewhat dated.

Are you seriously even considering this???   
 
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United787
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:38 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 8):
I believe IAF brass was questioning twin jet use for long haul VVIP transport. Recent incidents like MH370, MH17 and all conflicts in the region solidifies their position.

2 or 4 engines has nothing to do with MH370 and MH17! How would that solidify anyone's position?

MH17 was shot down by a missile, the plane would have crashed even if it had 16 engines!

As for MH370, of all of the known information (which isn't much), there is nothing that suggests that the disappearance had anything to do with the 777 only having 2 engines...
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 8:41 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
Are you seriously even considering this???   

There is a scenario I can think of. When Indian Special Protection Group wrote specs for VVIP Choppers, apparently they wanted enough clearance for armored vehicles directly under tail boom. AW101 made the cut because of this requirement.

Using that logic, AN225 with its rear cargo doors plus MRAT ride makes sense.

Quoting LH707330 (Reply 14):
The smart bet would be to pick up A345s.

That would make their fleet totally global.

Long haul - European (Airbus)
Medium haul - North American(Boeing)
Short haul - South America(Embraer)
Helicopters - Russian(Mil)

Quoting United787 (Reply 17):
As for MH370, of all of the known information (which isn't much), there is nothing that suggests that the disappearance had anything to do with the 777 only having 2 engines...

When you live in a bad neighborhood you have different threat perception. If they can live with twin jets, they already have 3xBBJs with all bells and whistles.

Indian media will tear them apart if they choose B777, at least until MH370 investigation is complete.

Quoting JOYA380B747 (Reply 13):
Its who shall maintain the aircrafts after procurement.

MX issue is not up for debate, they will be maintained by AIESL.
All posts are just opinions.
 
Flaps
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:22 pm

Given that it is the government of India they may have some issues.

I suggest they take the wings from a 777, an A340 fuselage, some Russian engines and then assemble the whole thing in China. That way there will be plenty of room to spread the blame when they cant come up with the payments.

  
 
Scanorama
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:21 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
Airbus A 380
Definitely a class above the US President´s next transport. Plus there are two available at relatively short notice.Though the GoI or Air India logo - whatever they decide - is by far nor as goodlooking as the Kingfisher logo, it would still be a nice addition to the local fleet.   

They could take the A380 that was going to Skymark - Airbus could give them a good discount to offload the plane. The low density configuration would help!  
Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 8):
I believe IAF brass was questioning twin jet use for long haul VVIP transport. Recent incidents like MH370, MH17 and all conflicts in the region solidifies their position.

Guess that would rule out B787 and A350 as well. But in all seriousness, missiles don't discriminate against the number of engines - if a missile hit an A380 or B747, it would sustain serious structural damage and would most likely crash. But then some presses aren't run by logical people.
 
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kanban
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:31 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 8):
I think they will go with 3xB748s. Though current B744s have some redundancy, they don't have self protection suites. I believe IAF brass was questioning twin jet use for long haul VVIP transport. Recent incidents like MH370, MH17 and all conflicts in the region solidifies their position.

Really don't see that the number of engines would have changed either outcome.. Yes people responsible for protecting the heads of state are worry warts, but I think you comment from what ever source is a red herring
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 1:50 am

A lot of references to profligacy and ego attributed to the Indian government here are grossly misplaced . They were very much true until May 2014, but clearly westerners cannot be expected to be up to date on Indian politics .

Here's the cliff notes version: Modi hates ostentatious displays . He rejected stopping New Delhi traffic for his cars to go through. He completely eliminated the entire private press contingent from AI1 . They're all required to take commercial flights now. Excess staff on board have been cut . No alcohol on board .

The guys a workaholic with no patience for wheeling and dealing culture . In fact it's been his political mission the dismantle that crony power structure . He not only won the general election but also two of the richest states in the country recently . His approval rating runs at 70-75% , as he goes about ripping out decades of political and bureaucratic waste.

All this talk about 'as good or better than AF1' is very misplaced and makes posters sound well behind the times. It's quite likely that Modi will ask for a choice that's unobtrusive and efficient, not a wasteful white elephant . That's far more in tune with his own manner of executive functioning .
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:52 pm

Indian media outlets are reporting about AI's plan to swap 3xB77Ws for 9xB737-MAXs. I don't think B77L conversion is an viable option. Refitting with EMI protected redundant cabling/electronics will itself cost lot more.

Bottom line B748i is not the most expensive option, platform cost is negligible. It is the options they choose cost a fortune.

Just to give an example,

Marine One fleet of 28x VH-71s(AW101 based) had an estimated program cost of $11.2 Billion($4.4 Billion already spent) before it got cancelled. $400 Million a piece.

India paid less than a $770 Million for 12xAW101s for their VVIP Chopper program based on same platform, before it was cancelled. $64 Million a piece.

[Edited 2014-11-05 05:36:26]
All posts are just opinions.
 
comorin
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Should the PM's plane be a 4-holer given the country's proximity to the Himalayas? I am referring to all that complicated stuff about engine out -> drop in altitude -> oxygen etc.

As for those of you suggesting 5- or 6- holers, remember you can always cruise with the RAT deployed.
 
angad84
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 12:57 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 22):

Bingo. Great post.

Cheers
Angad
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:28 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 23):
Refitting with EMI protected redundant cabling/electronics will itself cost lot more.

They could piggy back on the US AF1 recapitalization and get the EMI and self defense suit design for free.

Could a 767-2C perform the mission with extra tanks? It is already provisioned for self defense and is probably EMI shielded (including the appropriate wiring).

Of course the A330 Tanker would be better choice over the 767 Tanker.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
TheSonntag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 2:33 pm

Quoting comorin (Reply 24):
Should the PM's plane be a 4-holer given the country's proximity to the Himalayas? I am referring to all that complicated stuff about engine out -> drop in altitude -> oxygen etc.

I think this might actually make sense. Aren't there still routes available which cannot be flown by 777s and A330s because in case of engine-out, the cruise altitude is lower than the mountains around?
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 4:09 pm

Quoting EIRules (Reply 9):
I hear there's a hardly used 787 in EWR that they could take off AI's hands
Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
we are talking about plsnes that will in the hangar long period of time, so getting a second hand with low cicles will be the best option.
Quoting BarfBag (Reply 22):
Here's the cliff notes version: Modi hates ostentatious displays . He rejected stopping New Delhi traffic for his cars to go through. He completely eliminated the entire private press contingent from AI1 . They're all required to take commercial flights now. Excess staff on board have been cut.

[.....]

All this talk about 'as good or better than AF1' is very misplaced and makes posters sound well behind the times. It's quite likely that Modi will ask for a choice that's unobtrusive and efficient, not a wasteful white elephant.

In that case, the two options above could work...or they could get a cancelled 787 delivery spot from Boeing if they prefer brand new...given the three BBJs they could fall back on.
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Nov 05, 2014 11:32 pm

Is President Mukherjee the top dog in India, or is PM Modi? Mukherjee when he was the Defense Minister was the main guy in opening defense relationships with the US. He built a good reputation with Boeing, buying the C-17, B-737BBJ, P-8I, and AH-64, he also bought the C-130J/J-30 from LM. He also ordered the A-330MRTT, the order canceled, and reordered.

My guess is President Mukherjee will get the aircraft he wants. If he wants the B-762/3ER/-2C, B-77W/L/-8/-9, B-748, B-788/9/10, A-359/10 or A-388, he will get them.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Nov 06, 2014 1:10 am

No. The President is a figurehead, often a senior politician kicked upstairs. Sometimes it's a great public personality. The PM - Narendra Modi - wields the real executive power. Particularly so for Modi himself, who's the most politically powerful PM India has had in 3-4 decades, thanks to the strength of his parliamentary majority, and the new state level wins, which will translate to control over the upper house of parliament in 2-4 years as the existing RS MPs resign at end of term, and are replaced with BJP' MPs due to their own new electoral college strength.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Nov 06, 2014 12:23 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Is President Mukherjee the top dog in India, or is PM Modi?

Its a parliamentary democracy, President has powers as per constitution but never exercises those powers. Plays near ceremonial role leaving executive powers to PM.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 26):
They could piggy back on the US AF1 recapitalization and get the EMI and self defense suit design for free.

Definitely India will benefit financially from future USAF AF1/B748 program or JSADF/B777 program. Still program cost will be between $1.5 Billion to $2 Billion.

AIESL has in-house MRO capability for both B747 and B777. It has one GEnX MRO facility and second one will be ready in couple of years. So unlike JSADF decision, which was based on ANA's mx capabilities, India has both options. I doubt they will introduce any other model.

India may opt for its own communication and navigation equipment like it did with P8I and C130J.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Nov 06, 2014 2:41 pm

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 31):

Definitely India will benefit financially from future USAF AF1/B748 program or JSADF/B777 program. Still program cost will be between $1.5 Billion to $2 Billion.

If India does not need all the extra bells and whistle that comes with the US planes, then they can probably get a good price for the basic structural mod and save a bundle by not getting all the extra (and very expesive C3 equipment).

And being in good partner with Boeing, they may be able to negotiate to have Boeing do the interior mod in India.   
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Fri Nov 07, 2014 12:47 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 32):
If India does not need all the extra bells and whistle that comes with the US planes, then they can probably get a good price for the basic structural mod and save a bundle by not getting all the extra (and very expesive C3 equipment).

Not sure what kind of indigenous SPS capability India has. AFAIK India never signed agreements like Logistics Sharing Agreement (LSA), Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA) to get access to sensitive hardware, yet continue to buy all this state-of-the-art hardware sans sensitive technology.

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 32):
And being in good partner with Boeing, they may be able to negotiate to have Boeing do the interior mod in India.   

Absolutely no doubt about it, being #2 customer of BDS has its own benefits.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Sat Nov 08, 2014 12:42 am

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 33):
Not sure what kind of indigenous SPS capability India has. AFAIK India never signed agreements like Logistics Sharing Agreement (LSA), Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement (CISMOA) and the Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement for Geo-spatial Cooperation (BECA) to get access to sensitive hardware, yet continue to buy all this state-of-the-art hardware sans sensitive technology.

That's not happening. CISMOA is a dirty word in Indian political circles; the US tried to get us to sign CISMOA and other agreements for the MMRCA deal. It caused a political storm and India refused then, for a much bigger deal. Modi's too shrewd to ignore such history.
 
BLRAviation
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Mon Dec 08, 2014 12:51 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 3):
Not long ago AI had some planes that they didn't know what to do with them, B77L, that was perfect plane for this kind of missions.
Quoting behramjee (Reply 6):
They should just take the AI B772LRs and convert them for VIP usage !

Exactly my thoughts. Instead of getting a pittance for these niche planes, converting them to VIP use will be ideal. World-wide range. I am not sure if the 77L is Code D or Code E.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
What are they complaining? The POTUS still flies around in B747-200s.

What are the current regs of the B747s ? SAM29000 and 30000?

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 8):
Recent incidents like MH370, MH17 and all conflicts in the region solidifies their position.

I think someone in the IAF needs to learn more about ETOPS in case of engine failure, and more about the structurally destructive effect missiles have on airplanes.  
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Mon Dec 08, 2014 1:04 pm

Quoting migair54 (Reply 16):
Are you seriously even considering this???

It would be wonderful. The An-225 has a crane inside capable of lifting 10 tons or even more. This means you could transport the president in a bullet- and bomb-proof container, which doubles as his residence when abroad.

The presidential limousine would be self-loading thanks to the ramp.


David
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:27 pm

Quoting BLRAviation (Reply 35):
I think someone in the IAF needs to learn more about ETOPS in case of engine failure, and more about the structurally destructive effect missiles have on airplanes.  

I am sure they have enough knowledge on how twin jets work. They have no issues using BBJs for short trips. Pending MH370 investigation B777 is a no and I am 100% sure Indian SPG wouldn't even allow Indian PM to fly on any B787.

Off topic, any one know why Modi used IAF BBJ (K5014) on MEL-NAN leg during his Australia trip. VT-EVA tagged along. K5014 was positioned well in advance at MEL. Bit of a mystery.
All posts are just opinions.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Dec 09, 2014 4:02 pm

Quoting YYZYYT (Reply 15):
While I am not an expert on India by any stretch, I know that it has a popluation of 1 billion more or less, and is a major world economy (G-20, top 10 world-wide by GDP, and a major exporter of goods and services). Moreover, it faces immediate security issues that other countries / leaders do not face (both internal and external threats)...

1 billion people for which spending billions on those planes will make a far bigger dent in their wallet than in a US citizen much larger wallet.
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bikerthai
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:51 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):
1 billion people for which spending billions on those planes will make a far bigger dent in their wallet

And how much of a dent do the Nukes that India has make in the ordinary citizens' wallet? And India's space adventures?

With an unfriendly nuclear capable neighbor in Pakistan, I can understand if India's want a more capable executive aircraft. How big an aircraft? I guess that is where we can debate budgets . . .

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:56 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 39):
With an unfriendly nuclear capable neighbor in Pakistan, I can understand if India's want a more capable executive aircraft. How big an aircraft? I guess that is where we can debate budgets . . .

Pakistan is a nuisance, nothing more. They're doing an excellent job of screwing themselves up these days too. India's deterrent has always been directed northwards, responding to the Chinese thread, even since the 1960s.
 
BLRAviation
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:44 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 29):
Is President Mukherjee the top dog in India, or is PM Modi? Mukherjee when he was the Defense Minister was the main guy in opening defense relationships with the US. He built a good reputation with Boeing, buying the C-17, B-737BBJ, P-8I, and AH-64, he also bought the C-130J/J-30 from LM. He also ordered the A-330MRTT, the order canceled, and reordered.

India's political system is derived from Britain. The President is like the Queen, the De Jure head of government. The Prime Minister is the De Facto head of government. Unlike the United States, all the Cabinet Ministers have to be members of Parliament, at least within 6 months of joining.

Former PM Singh was an unelected PM. He was nominated to the Upper House by the Congress in a state where they had state legislature majority, whose legislators therefore would follow the party leadership whip and "vote" for Singh.
I am on Twitter @BLRAviation
 
777way
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Wed Feb 04, 2015 10:59 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 40):

What a pathetic attitude, let go of the past and move on, I cant believe you are the same person I was admiring for the way you handled the Khobragade threads.

[Edited 2015-02-04 15:01:47]
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:39 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
India has always aimed at having the transport needs of their President and Prime Minister to be at least the equal of whatever the President of the United States is using for the purpose. With no commercially available 5 or 6 engined aircraft available they had to settle for the Air India 747-400´s - beats the 747-200´s the US President is using.

No, it doesn't. The AI B-747-400 is an airliner that sometimes becomes a VVIP. The USAF VC-25 is a full time flying white house, with everything the POTUS needs. The VC-25 is a hybrid using the B-747-200 body, the B-747-300 wings and landing gear, and the B-747-400 engines. It also has duel APUs, air refueling capability, and self defenses. AI-1 has none of that.

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 10):
Airbus A 380
Definitely a class above the US President´s next transport.

No again. The B-747-8I has sold 8-9 VVIP airplanes, not counting the 2-3 AF-1s they will build. The A-380 has sold one VVIP airplane, and that is for sale, again.

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 22):
Modi hates ostentatious displays . He rejected stopping New Delhi traffic for his cars to go through. He completely eliminated the entire private press contingent from AI1 . They're all required to take commercial flights now. Excess staff on board have been cut . No alcohol on board .

The guys a workaholic with no patience for wheeling and dealing culture . In fact it's been his political mission the dismantle that crony power structure . He not only won the general election but also two of the richest states in the country recently . His approval rating runs at 70-75% , as he goes about ripping out decades of political and bureaucratic waste.

That could be a duel edged sword. A popular President/PM is not always popular within the government he commands. His popularity very well could put a target upon his back. So, protection may very well be the single most important factor in choosing a VIP airplane. That could mean 4 engines. It also could make a case for a very fast airplane, which the B-747-8I is. The B-747-8I has a max "advised operating" speed of .90M, but can easily go to .95M (max design is .98M, in a dive), normal cruise is .855M. The A-380 has a max speed of .89M, and a max design speed of .96M, in a dive, normal cruise is .85M.

Remember, Gandhi was also very popular but was assassinated by a RSS Hindu (Gandhi was also a Hindu) who did not like Gandhi's favoring muslims and Pakistan.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:35 am

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 43):
So, protection may very well be the single most important factor in choosing a VIP airplane. That could mean 4 engines.

Fairly farfetched A340 ad quoting there   Interesting theory, but IMHO rather irrelevant as a factor. Gandhi perished a very long time ago. In Jan 1948, India had experienced just 5 months of freedom after 700 years of brutal Muslim tyranny followed a hundred years of British plunder culminating in 3 million dead in the 1942-43 Bengal famine. It was a time when a lot of people were pissed at a lot of things. Lincoln perished in the aftermath of a traumatic war too.

I'd like to think India does a very good job of protecting its leaders considering our resources relative to a developed state like the US, and the part of the world we're situated in, with terrorist madmen repeatedly blowing things up next door. It was only a couple of weeks ago that Obama was able to sit in safety for 3hrs at a public parade surrounded by 10s of thousands of people. The Secret Service usually gets extremely anxious at the prospect of something like that even within US shores.

The fact that they let Indian security forces lead and gave in to Indian refusal to cancel things like the Republic Day flypast and the military parade - with everything from automatic weapons to main battle tanks rolling past without incident, affirms the level of safety available . Not to mention that Modi follows the rules of Arthashastra - your most important counsel if not your finance minister or home minister, but your trusted chief of internal security. In Modi's case, that's former master spy Ajit Doval.
 
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bikerthai
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 2:18 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 44):
everything from automatic weapons to main battle tanks rolling past without incident, affirms the level of safety available

Pretty sure orders have been made to remove all ammunition from the guns and tanks prior to the parade. I would say the planes too, but I'd figure the pilots are much more trust worthy.

This discussion of the parade make me recall the Sadat assassination in Egypt. If you have a dedicated enough group with proper insider backing . . . who knows what you can do.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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Devilfish
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:58 pm

Too much serious stuff it's mind boggling...    ...

Quoting dtw2hyd (Reply 37):
I am 100% sure Indian SPG wouldn't even allow Indian PM to fly on any B787.

   They might make an exception and adopt VT-ANI as the next head-of-state transport. After all, it has gone through a very fine-toothed comb in India and they now know it very well inside and out. Besides, it'd sit in a hangar most of the time as the dedicated VIP plane -- a task it has proven itself most adept at...    .

Air India VT-ANI To Fly Again Soon, Was Stripped (by BiggerJetsPlz Jan 28 2015 in Civil Aviation)

[Edited 2015-02-05 09:20:15]
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
dtw2hyd
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:02 pm

Any idea if this topic was discussed during Obama's India visit? 3x748s would be nice.
All posts are just opinions.
 
BarfBag
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:29 pm

Quoting bikerthai (Reply 45):
Pretty sure orders have been made to remove all ammunition from the guns and tanks prior to the parade. I would say the planes too, but I'd figure the pilots are much more trust worthy.

That is not the point at all. Of course everything is sanitized first. The point is that the Secret Service is willing to trust the Indian security to ensure every last weapon is sanitized, every pilot, tank operator and anyone capable of causing harm has been cleared among the thousands going past, and they were willing to let Indian security manage things in the heart of New Delhi amidst a crowd of thousands while the POTUS sat there as exposed as anyone else, essentially leaving his safety and wellbeing largely in our hands, something we handled without any incident.

India gave limited leeway to the US to handle their security arrangements, e.g. Obama traveled in the Beast, rather than accompany the President in his armored car to the venue as is custom, and US sniper crews got to accompany Indian ones in some areas. But the rest, we had our way, and handled it right. We're capable of managing security to the point of guaranteeing the safety of your leader, providing a stable country in a very volatile region where his security would normally overrule his being in public for any duration.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Hunt For Replacement Of Indian PM’s VIP Plane

Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:11 pm

Quoting BarfBag (Reply 44):
The fact that they let Indian security forces lead and gave in to Indian refusal to cancel things like the Republic Day flypast and the military parade - with everything from automatic weapons to main battle tanks rolling past without incident, affirms the level of safety available .
Quoting bikerthai (Reply 45):
This discussion of the parade make me recall the Sadat assassination in Egypt. If you have a dedicated enough group with proper insider backing . . . who knows what you can do.

Yeah, Anwar Sadat thought he was safe too, and it was his own Army.

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