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bthebest
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Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Wed Dec 17, 2014 1:24 pm

Given that by Q3 2015, both the C-5 and C-17 will be out of production, are there any feasibility studies for a new heavy airlifter?

Granted, the C-17 fleet is still quite young and the C-5s are being upgraded to C-5M, but they've got to run out of life at some point. What sort of thing would we be looking at for a replacement:

- 2 new aicraft for direct relpacement?
- 1 aircraft slotted between the C-5 and C-17 capabilities?
- 2 improved designs for enhanced capability (lift, range etc.)
- Completely new strategy?
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Dec 18, 2014 10:29 am

There's too little room for improvement to justify new designs I suppose. Putting the C-5 and C-1 back into production will also be very expensive.

They need to rethink how they produce big military aircraft. After a limited initial production run, keep on building one aircraft a year in a kind of labour intensive workshop that can also do upgrades to the existing fleet. I know this is expensive but imagine the maintenance savings if they had rejuvenated the B-52 fleet in this manner.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
wingman
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Dec 18, 2014 6:11 pm

I've always wondered what the difference is in section between a 777 and these two aircraft. WOuldn't a 777F be a candidate for conversion to heavy military transport?
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Dec 18, 2014 7:30 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 2):
WOuldn't a 777F be a candidate for conversion to heavy military transport?

It can't carry tactical vehicles, so that would only be good for pallets. I do think the USAF should acquire a small fleet of 777F to move supplies more efficiently.
 
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flyingturtle
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Dec 18, 2014 9:39 pm

Quoting wingman (Reply 2):
I've always wondered what the difference is in section between a 777 and these two aircraft. WOuldn't a 777F be a candidate for conversion to heavy military transport?

Only for logistics between airports... yes. But a tactical airlifter needs:

- landing gear that is suitable for landing on grass and dirt runways: many wheels in order to distribute the weight
- high-mounted engines (danger of FOD), and thus a high-mounted wing
- a loading ramp for those tanks; and cargo must be on- and offloaded with simple stuff like trucks and forklifts
- a T tail is a plus (less collision risk when maneuvering with loading vehicles)


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bohica
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Dec 19, 2014 6:10 am

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 4):
a tactical airlifter needs:

- landing gear that is suitable for landing on grass and dirt runways: many wheels in order to distribute the weight
- high-mounted engines (danger of FOD), and thus a high-mounted wing
- a loading ramp for those tanks; and cargo must be on- and offloaded with simple stuff like trucks and forklifts
- a T tail is a plus (less collision risk when maneuvering with loading vehicles)

Let me add the ability to quickly offload cargo and personnel while inflight.
 
bthebest
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Dec 19, 2014 12:15 pm

Would it be possible for another manufacturer (Airbus) to enter the market. Limited at the moment to Boeing and Ilyushin, and the market size is not that great.

Can't really see Russia or their "allies" buying strategic western military aircraft.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Dec 19, 2014 1:07 pm

Sure but what market?

Neither the US nor Russia nor China would take the plane.
 
INFINITI329
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:23 pm

Quoting bthebest (Reply 6):
Would it be possible for another manufacturer (Airbus) to enter the market. Limited at the moment to Boeing and Ilyushin, and the market size is not that great.

Umm thats what the A400 is for
 
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par13del
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Dec 19, 2014 4:32 pm

Quoting seahawk (Reply 7):

Sure but what market?
Quoting infiniti329 (Reply 8):
Umm thats what the A400 is for

Yes, and its limitation is that the a/c has to have features required by the host country to get the product to launch, it would be difficult to propose a project for a heavy lifter with a design for a non-EU nation.
A400 is an interesting frame, but it encroaches too much on the C-17 and is a better C-130, so even if the USA wants to dump all its C-130's it runs into the C-17 abilities for which it is not an ideal replacement.
 
747400sp
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:03 am

Quoting bthebest (Reply 6):

It would not be a bad ideal, Airbus did build the A380 and A400, so I am pretty sure they can make a super cargo jet to replace the C5.
 
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ptrjong
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:51 am

Of course Airbus can, technically speaking. Even Lockheed could probably do it, even though they haven't developed a new large aircraft in 45 years.

If you want it on time and on budget, I'd ask Embraer.
The only difference between me and a madman is that I am not mad (Salvador Dali)
 
A342
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Mon Dec 22, 2014 6:50 pm

Have Antonov license the An-124, update it with new avionics, hang GEnx-2B engines under its wings and build it in the USA.

Boy, Russia would be miffed big time  
Exceptions confirm the rule.
 
Buckeyetech
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Mon Dec 22, 2014 8:44 pm

B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
na
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Tue Jan 27, 2015 12:47 am

I do not think that the USAF needs to think about a C-17 replacement before 2030. C-5 a bit earlier, granted.

Quoting wingman (Reply 2):
WOuldn't a 777F be a candidate for conversion to heavy military transport?

No. In any case 748Fs would be better if they should ever need own non-combatzone freighters. But I doubt that that is ever needed, renting civilian planes from different sources as is the practice since Vietnam is a much better idea, not only because its cheaper.
 
redflyer
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:13 pm

Quoting na (Reply 14):
I do not think that the USAF needs to think about a C-17 replacement before 2030. C-5 a bit earlier, granted.

The USAF just requested $$ in the 2016 budget for research studies for a replacement for the F-35. Yes, the F-35. Granted, it's to keep the suppliers actively engaged to ensure there isn't a brain-drain, but if they are doing that for a front-line fighter that isn't even combat ready yet but is expected to be in service for 30+ years once it is, it isn't far-fetched to think that they wouldn't be considering a replacement for these two workhorses.
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na
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Fri Jan 30, 2015 1:41 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 15):
The USAF just requested $$ in the 2016 budget for research studies for a replacement for the F-35. Yes, the F-35. Granted, it's to keep the suppliers actively engaged to ensure there isn't a brain-drain, but if they are doing that for a front-line fighter that isn't even combat ready yet but is expected to be in service for 30+ years once it is, it isn't far-fetched to think that they wouldn't be considering a replacement for these two workhorses.

Fighter jets are different as much of the design work has an exceptionally long lead time as its the most advanced piece of high tech we are talking about. Freighters are simpler in that way. Serious studies must begin around 15 years before one is actually flying, but not 30.
I am sure there are studies done every few years to keep track. But I doubt that currently anything serious (in terms of production planning) is being done about a C-17 replacement. Only if the US Forces think that the C-5 and the C-17 replacements should be one type a bit of pressure is building up.
 
YVRLTN
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Feb 12, 2015 5:28 am

Quoting bthebest (Thread starter):
Granted, the C-17 fleet is still quite young

If they can keep the C5 in service for 45 years and then upgrade it, then why cant they do the same with the C17? Not to mention the B52...
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strfyr51
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:25 am

Quoting 747400sp (Reply 10):
It would not be a bad ideal, Airbus did build the A380 and A400, so I am pretty sure they can make a super cargo jet to replace the C5.

For a US tactical airlifter?? Not unless they built it here in the USA.. That's just the way it is..
I think they'll get to Be a prime defence contractor but NOT until the airplanes are designed and Built in the USA..
There's no way in the world that would fly unless Boeing, Lockheed-Martin, or Northrop-Grumman declined to particiapte.
And we ALL know that's not going to happen.
 
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TWA772LR
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:51 am

Perhaps Boeing can develop a strategic airlifted from the 748F.

4 GENx-2Bs, top mounted wings, lower floor totally erasing the belly hold and making it easier to be accessed with fore and aft ramps, lifting nose, T-tail, and kneeling nose gear.

It would finally give Boeing to deliver on their original promise of the 747 being a strategic airlifted. Or do everything I just said but with a 748I to offer some kind of pax cabin like the C5.

What ever happened to Boeing's ground-effect Pelican airplane concept?
When wasn't America great?


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Legs
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:29 am

Quoting TWA772LR (Reply 19):
4 GENx-2Bs, top mounted wings, lower floor totally erasing the belly hold and making it easier to be accessed with fore and aft ramps, lifting nose, T-tail, and kneeling nose gear.

At that point, I'm pretty sure it's easier just to design an airlifter from a clean sheet.
 
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seahawk
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RE: Future Replacement For C-17 And C-5

Tue Feb 17, 2015 11:02 am

The idea the have a fleet of 747-8F for palletized cargo and transportation duties outside of warzones does not seem to bad to me. A order of 50 would keep the line going. And if they go back to the early white C-141 scheme, they would look just lovely.

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