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Groover158
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Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Fri Apr 10, 2015 9:36 am

Tony Abbott announces two more C-17s for the RAAF bringing the total to eight.

http://australianaviation.com.au/201...irms-two-extra-c-17s-for-the-raaf/
 
Max Q
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Fri Apr 10, 2015 11:33 pm

So are there any white tails left ?


The article implies they may have wanted to order four more originally, so are they considering another two ?
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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Revelation
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sat Apr 11, 2015 12:24 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 1):
So are there any white tails left ?

Final C-17 Moves Into Final Assembly (by KarelXWB Feb 27 2015 in Military Aviation & Space Flight)

#11 from member Karadion says:

Quote:

White Tail List:
14-0001 - 50271 - N270ZD
14-0002 - 50272 - N271ZD
14-0003 - 50273 - N272ZD - Sold to Canada - CC-177 - 177705
14-0004 - 50274 - N273ZD
14-0005 - 50275 - N274ZD
14-0006 - 50276 - N275ZD
14-0007 - 50277 - N276ZD
14-0008 - 50278 - N277ZD
14-0009 - 50279 - N278ZD
14-0010 - 50280 - N279ZD
All of the planes but 14-0003 are still owned by Boeing so I'm guessing that Boeing is still working on the terms with the countries that have expressed interested in the remaining C-17's

so there's plenty up for grabs...
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Legs
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:19 am

Quoting Max Q (Reply 1):
order four more

If memory serves, Australia requested pricing and availability data on up to four airframes. Seems like at the moment, they are just converting two of those into firm orders.
 
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kc135topboom
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sat Apr 11, 2015 11:29 am

Of the 10 white tails, one is already gone to Canada.

That leaves 9.

Australia has just claimed 2 more leaving just 7.

If Australia takes another 2 that leaves 5.

New Zealand is interested in up to 2 C-17s, if the NZRAF takes both, that leaves only 3 left.

India is interested in up to 4 more C-17s.

Does that mean Boeing will still need to build one more if the IAF does take 4 more?
 
elmothehobo
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sat Apr 11, 2015 9:12 pm

Quoting KC135TopBoom (Reply 4):
Does that mean Boeing will still need to build one more if the IAF does take 4 more?

No, Boeing won't be building anymore. The supply chain is shutting down as we speak. Fortunately for India's ambitions, it's unlikely that RNZAF will pick up any C-17s.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sun Apr 12, 2015 12:30 pm

Quoting elmothehobo (Reply 5):
it's unlikely that RNZAF will pick up any C-17s.

I do believe that the RNZAF have given up their C-17 ambitions, for a time it was thought that the RAAF C-17 #9 & 10 would be "ANZACS"
This apparently not happening and if 9th &10th A/C ordered will be RAAF A/C-- it is hard to see any valid NZDF tasking being denied tho!
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Sun Apr 12, 2015 2:56 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):
I do believe that the RNZAF have given up their C-17 ambitions

I don't believe the RNZAF ever had any C-17 ambitions, it was all a website fanboy and media send up, the pollies weren't really interested either. We will get A400 which is more than good enough to replace the junk they are currently flying.
 
Max Q
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:32 am

I guarantee you the C17 will be the next 757


'Why did Boeing stop production' ?



I can see the thread now.



Maybe i'll start it...
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.


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ZaphodHarkonnen
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 10:57 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):

Nah, the pollies wanted them. But after a basic costing realised they couldn't convince even their core voter base that it'd make economic sense. Of course there's still a chance whether or not it makes sense. After all I don't hold the pursestrings of the MoD.
 
Stealthz
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:08 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
We will get A400 which is more than good enough to replace the junk they are currently flying.

And how many?
Does being the only A400 operator in the hemisphere(and a small fleet at that) make sense... would it not perhaps make more sense to get even a larger number of C-130J and capitalise on the resources of neighbouring partners?
If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!....well that might have changed!!!
 
bunumuring
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 3:34 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):
I do believe that the RNZAF have given up their C-17 ambitions, for a time it was thought that the RAAF C-17 #9 & 10 would be "ANZACS"
This apparently not happening and if 9th &10th A/C ordered will be RAAF A/C-- it is hard to see any valid NZDF tasking being denied tho!

My understanding is that this was the case. There were discussions for a least one jointly purchased/operated C-17, and possibly two. I believe at one stage certain 'people' wanted the deal to be announced as part of the ANZAC Centenary celebrations... And possibly the plane itself to be a feature of the celebrations.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 7):
I don't believe the RNZAF ever had any C-17 ambitions, it was all a website fanboy and media send up, the pollies weren't really interested either. We will get A400 which is more than good enough to replace the junk they are currently flying.

The first part of is wrong I believe, but the second part about the A400M is looking likely. I believe that the A400M is being seriously considered by the RNZAF and NZ Government, but the string of bad reports about the aircraft over the years may be causing concern. Also, the cost of acquisition and operation of the type is very questionable. The next nearest operator would be Malaysia with four A400Ms and sharing maintenance and training etc would be something desirable to cut costs.

Separately, I am disappointed with our PM, Tony Abbott, for stating months ago that the RAAF may get four extra C-17s rather than two... Yet has now only confirmed the additional two to bring the RAAFs flee to eight rather than originally mentioned ten aircraft. The C-17 is undeniably a brilliant aircraft, much loved by the RAAF, and one that has a very definite and small number of unsold aircraft available. We should order the 9th and 10th C-17s now to ensure we actually get them before all the white tails are snapped up!

Come on Tony! Order the 9th and 10th C-17s and the 6th A330RTT/VIP now!

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
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Revelation
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 5:38 pm

Quoting Max Q (Reply 8):
I guarantee you the C17 will be the next 757
'Why did Boeing stop production' ?
I can see the thread now.
Maybe i'll start it...

I think you're already raising it at every opportunity, no?

Personally I think if the white tails do sell out quickly, the DoD will happily sell off a few of its own newer C-17s. They already have far more than they want, and putting them into the hands of reliable partners is killing two birds with one stone. The frames would move off the USAF's books and chances are high that they end up doing some missions that the USAF itself would have to undertake otherwise.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 10):
Does being the only A400 operator in the hemisphere(and a small fleet at that) make sense... would it not perhaps make more sense to get even a larger number of C-130J and capitalise on the resources of neighbouring partners?

If the A400Ms could be had at a price on par with the C-130J, I think they'd go with the A400M because of its much better payload-range capabilities. However the price may or may not be on par, and overall costs would be pretty high, especially considering your statements on training and logistics.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 11):
Separately, I am disappointed with our PM, Tony Abbott, for stating months ago that the RAAF may get four extra C-17s rather than two... Yet has now only confirmed the additional two to bring the RAAFs flee to eight rather than originally mentioned ten aircraft. The C-17 is undeniably a brilliant aircraft, much loved by the RAAF, and one that has a very definite and small number of unsold aircraft available. We should order the 9th and 10th C-17s now to ensure we actually get them before all the white tails are snapped up!

I don't watch Aus. politics much but it seems the current Government is willing to spend on defense a lot more readily than the last ones, no?
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Ozair
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 9:14 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 11):
Separately, I am disappointed with our PM, Tony Abbott, for stating months ago that the RAAF may get four extra C-17s rather than two... Yet has now only confirmed the additional two to bring the RAAFs flee to eight rather than originally mentioned ten aircraft. The C-17 is undeniably a brilliant aircraft, much loved by the RAAF, and one that has a very definite and small number of unsold aircraft available. We should order the 9th and 10th C-17s now to ensure we actually get them before all the white tails are snapped up!

The question that needs to be asked is do we need them? Amberley already needs to be extensively modified because we can't fit the current fleet of C-17s there. I think 8 is more than enough for what the ADF needs and should be doing. I would rather see the money saved on these two and any additional two and purchase another Canberra LHD, which would be able to provide more enduring disaster assistance in the region.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 12):
I don't watch Aus. politics much but it seems the current Government is willing to spend on defense a lot more readily than the last ones, no?

By a significant margin. The previous government gutted the acquisition of new capability by the ADF by freezing all existing purchases for two years and reducing international travel and exercises.
 
Buckeyetech
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Mon Apr 13, 2015 11:22 pm

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
The question that needs to be asked is do we need them?

Biggest reason is scheduled maintenance on the C-17. Unlike the C-5, it goes through a lot of preventative maintenance, a lot of which require it being flown to the U.S. periodically. Having that extra couple tails will help Amberley immensely to schedule missions.
B-52H, C-141C, C-5A, C-17A
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Tue Apr 14, 2015 7:31 am

It's tricky for the RNZAF. They have a limited budget.
They would of course prefer the A400M as it is more capable than the C130J.
That said they get by with C130H so 5x C130J would do the job along with 2x A321LR
5x A400M would certainly be a big capability boost.
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Tue Apr 14, 2015 8:12 pm

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 11):
The first part of is wrong I believe

I still don't see it as a serious interest.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 11):
but the string of bad reports about the aircraft over the years may be causing concern

It's a new project, nothing this complicated comes without problems, even that flying turkey the F-35 has had multiple problems but it's still being bought.

Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 15):
That said they get by with C130H so 5x C130J would do the job along with 2x A321LR

They can't move a LAV III or NH90 in a C130, so that's not going to happen.
 
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Zkpilot
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Wed Apr 15, 2015 6:50 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
They can't move a LAV III or NH90 in a C130, so that's not going to happen.

C-130H that they currently operate sure. C-130J however can do so (albeit not in a ready to go condition is my understanding). This is where the A400M makes sense or 2x C17 and 4x C130J
64 types. 45 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ThePointblank
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Wed Apr 15, 2015 9:31 am

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 16):
They can't move a LAV III or NH90 in a C130, so that's not going to happen.

For a NH-90, some dis-assembly is required (which most helicopters require anyways for transport by air). For a LAV III, the turret needs to be removed, along with any detachable armour.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Wed Apr 15, 2015 5:14 pm

Quoting stealthz (Reply 10):
Does being the only A400 operator in the hemisphere(and a small fleet at that) make sense... would it not perhaps make more sense to get even a larger number of C-130J and capitalise on the resources of neighbouring partners?

Malaysia has a400 on order, and I bet France will have some stationed in the Pacific, or at least rotate them out here. In time there will be more A400 operators. Military equipment is getting bigger and heavier, why buy an airlifter which can't fit in as much stuff. I know it's the same argument for buying C-17 over A400 but C-17 is no onger in production so A400 is the only serious option for the RNZAF going forward.


Quoting Zkpilot (Reply 17):
C-130H that they currently operate sure. C-130J however can do so (albeit not in a ready to go condition is my understanding).

I don't believe the cargo bay on a J is any higher than on the H we operate, which pretty much precludes fitting the NH90 inside.
 
bunumuring
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:28 am

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 14):

Quoting Ozair (Reply 13):
The question that needs to be asked is do we need them?

Biggest reason is scheduled maintenance on the C-17. Unlike the C-5, it goes through a lot of preventative maintenance, a lot of which require it being flown to the U.S. periodically. Having that extra couple tails will help Amberley immensely to schedule missions.


Couldn't agree more. The extra couple will help 'future proof' the whole fleet and allow a substantial 'surge' capacity available in the event of natural disasters (see Japan: tsunami, when I believe that three were stationed there at once for a short period of time; Holland where another three were stationed assisting with MH17).

I am still convinced that the RAAf should have a fleet of ten.

Cheers,
Bunumuring.
I just wanna live while I'm alive!
 
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Groover158
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Thu Apr 16, 2015 11:19 am

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 20):
Couldn't agree more. The extra couple will help 'future proof' the whole fleet and allow a substantial 'surge' capacity available in the event of natural disasters (see Japan: tsunami, when I believe that three were stationed there at once for a short period of time; Holland where another three were stationed assisting with MH17)....


If you had a never-ending bucket of money, then sure you should base your fleet size on an occasional surge every few years. The reality is that the fleet size is determined in full consideration of anticipated aircraft down-time due maintenance and reliability modelling. The problem for the RAAF is that we now have a capability that we never even dreamed of, and now that we have it, we don't understand how we ever did without it. There will always be tasks to be done by any number of additional C-17s, the key is understanding how many we actually need.
 
Ozair
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RE: Raaf Confirms Seventh And Eighth C-17A Purchase

Thu Apr 16, 2015 12:35 pm

Quoting buckeyetech (Reply 14):
Biggest reason is scheduled maintenance on the C-17. Unlike the C-5, it goes through a lot of preventative maintenance, a lot of which require it being flown to the U.S. periodically. Having that extra couple tails will help Amberley immensely to schedule missions.

Sure but there has to be a limit to that.

Quoting bunumuring (Reply 20):
I am still convinced that the RAAf should have a fleet of ten.

I'm not. We don't need ten C-17s, twelve C-130s and ten C-27s. We might be an island nation but Timor proved that we can't move what we need via air.

Quoting groover158 (Reply 21):
The reality is that the fleet size is determined in full consideration of anticipated aircraft down-time due maintenance and reliability modelling.

I'm less convinced of that than I should be...

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