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Stitch
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:27 pm

wingman wrote:
Dense question, what exactly is this Hopper for? The name seems obvious but I'll be damed if I can understand how you'd ever tank enough fuel to do more than one take-off.


It's a prototype platform to test the Raptor engine that will be used on the Starship rocket designed for Moon and Mars missions.
 
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:27 pm

memphiX wrote:
short version:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZcQWf0YaCg

No wonder why people hate Musk so much, he makes it look easy.
Do you want space flights? Here is the EZ button.

Thanks for posting! Good video (as it should be since it was SpaceX drone footage without clouds of dust in the way). You can see the missing leg panel that I assume to be what flew off at the end of the Everyday Astronaut footage that they commented about.

wingman wrote:
Dense question, what exactly is this Hopper for? The name seems obvious but I'll be damed if I can understand how you'd ever tank enough fuel to do more than one take-off.

This is to test the brand new Raptor engine they have been developing the last couple years.

I did a quick search and though it includes the Blue Origin BE-4 this is a good comparison of the Merlin vs the Raptor.
Image

Still a long way to go but a good start.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
wingman
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:22 pm

Thank you both. So fair to say that the test is primarily about the landing functionality or do they intend to lift off once on the Moon or Mars and then travel to another location, say from one valley to another or one pole to another? Maybe I should look it up. If they do intend to move once on station it seems like it would be easier to use a more proven vehicle like a rover. Or maybe the idea is they could travel a massive distance on Mars in one flight that would take a rover 6 years to travel. And eventually refuel if they had an established base with regular supply missions from Earth. Whatever the intent is it's all pretty surreal.
 
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 6:40 pm

A screen capture from my roof. Waited a long time for that ugly little spud to fly.
Image
 
mxaxai
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:17 pm

wingman wrote:
Thank you both. So fair to say that the test is primarily about the landing functionality or do they intend to lift off once on the Moon or Mars and then travel to another location, say from one valley to another or one pole to another? Maybe I should look it up. If they do intend to move once on station it seems like it would be easier to use a more proven vehicle like a rover. Or maybe the idea is they could travel a massive distance on Mars in one flight that would take a rover 6 years to travel. And eventually refuel if they had an established base with regular supply missions from Earth. Whatever the intent is it's all pretty surreal.

SpaceX has produced some videos - with great visuals - about their future missions. You should watch them.
The point is to achieve reusability of large rockets. This is useful for both cheaper launches from earth as well as return missions to Moon or Mars. Also, landing on Moon or Mars requires rocket assistance, so the ability to land like this is required anyway.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Aug 28, 2019 8:21 pm

wingman wrote:
Dense question, what exactly is this Hopper for? The name seems obvious but I'll be damed if I can understand how you'd ever tank enough fuel to do more than one take-off.


It's a prototype for testing the general setup. They did the same when developing the landing capability of the Falcon 9 booster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDkItO-0a4

Hopper allows them to test the new engine and control systems in the real world without needing to build a full production version. It will now be disassembled as it's served its purpose. Next flight will be a full developmental version of Starship doing suborbital hops.
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:31 am

wingman wrote:
Dense question, what exactly is this Hopper for? The name seems obvious but I'll be damed if I can understand how you'd ever tank enough fuel to do more than one take-off.


It’s for testing the engine and the engine mount, as well as all the guidance computers and other stuff. But for the most part, it’s for working out the kinks in a very very very complex engine. It’s a test article not meant to do anything but gather data for later versions designed to carry payloads.

I would have liked to have seen it’s max performance as a fan of KSP, so it would have been fun to see it shot out into the water but I suppose it’s more useful this way.
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:35 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
wingman wrote:
Dense question, what exactly is this Hopper for? The name seems obvious but I'll be damed if I can understand how you'd ever tank enough fuel to do more than one take-off.


It's a prototype for testing the general setup. They did the same when developing the landing capability of the Falcon 9 booster.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ZDkItO-0a4

Hopper allows them to test the new engine and control systems in the real world without needing to build a full production version. It will now be disassembled as it's served its purpose. Next flight will be a full developmental version of Starship doing suborbital hops.

Actual they’re going to turn it into a Raptor test stand by fixing it to the ground.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:34 pm

There's already people out there speculating that something might have gone wrong with the raptor engine towards the end as the exhaust could be seen turning bright yellow, not a color you're supposed to get when burning methane...
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:24 pm

Francoflier wrote:
There's already people out there speculating that something might have gone wrong with the raptor engine towards the end as the exhaust could be seen turning bright yellow, not a color you're supposed to get when burning methane...

I dunno, I don't think it is a problem per se. I have seen that before in the other tests of the Raptor at the end of the run (the flameout?).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAAzbjG_Duc

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
DarkKnight5
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Aug 31, 2019 12:23 am

Francoflier wrote:
There's already people out there speculating that something might have gone wrong with the raptor engine towards the end as the exhaust could be seen turning bright yellow, not a color you're supposed to get when burning methane...


The plume also seemed yellow while close to the ground on liftoff. I think it has more to do with the shape of the plume as it’s affected by the exhaust being forced out perpendicular to the direction it left the engine. That’s pure speculation but since the color is the same at liftoff and landing, I think it’s reasonable.
 
mxaxai
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Aug 31, 2019 1:31 am

DarkKnight5 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
There's already people out there speculating that something might have gone wrong with the raptor engine towards the end as the exhaust could be seen turning bright yellow, not a color you're supposed to get when burning methane...


The plume also seemed yellow while close to the ground on liftoff. I think it has more to do with the shape of the plume as it’s affected by the exhaust being forced out perpendicular to the direction it left the engine. That’s pure speculation but since the color is the same at liftoff and landing, I think it’s reasonable.

Could also be related to high thrust settings. Landing requires more thrust than hovering, and you can see the plume turn yellow as the hopper starts to decelerate.
It might be unburnt methane. Methane flames do turn yellow-orange in a fuel rich environment. As Methane is lighter than Oxygen, a slightly fuel rich mixture would also make sense for optimum efficiency.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Aug 31, 2019 5:37 am

mxaxai wrote:
DarkKnight5 wrote:
Francoflier wrote:
There's already people out there speculating that something might have gone wrong with the raptor engine towards the end as the exhaust could be seen turning bright yellow, not a color you're supposed to get when burning methane...


The plume also seemed yellow while close to the ground on liftoff. I think it has more to do with the shape of the plume as it’s affected by the exhaust being forced out perpendicular to the direction it left the engine. That’s pure speculation but since the color is the same at liftoff and landing, I think it’s reasonable.

Could also be related to high thrust settings. Landing requires more thrust than hovering, and you can see the plume turn yellow as the hopper starts to decelerate.
It might be unburnt methane. Methane flames do turn yellow-orange in a fuel rich environment. As Methane is lighter than Oxygen, a slightly fuel rich mixture would also make sense for optimum efficiency.


The exhaust looked quite 'normal' on lift-off with the usual relatively colorless aspect of an optimum methane/oxygen ratio and its characteristic Mach diamonds. It only goes yellow towards the end, and suddenly so.
In this particular instance, landing doesn't require more thrust than going up or hovering as there is little deceleration to do. By that stage, the hopper would have been lighter as most of the fuel and oxygen would have been burned and they would have had to throttle the engine to a lower setting. I also believe, as proposed above, that the lower thrust likely probably calls for a different fuel/oxygen mixture due to the particularities of the close-cycle setup. They might need to keep it rich at low thrust for cooling or other intrinsic limitation of the design.

At least I hope, as one of the possibilities would be the engine starting to eat itself from the inside :scared: ...


There's also the apparently heavier than intended landing and the tank that came flying off after said landing. Although given the rather (almost literally) agricultural nature of that test article and its disposable design, that may be within the 'semi-intended' consequences.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:35 pm

A comment on youtube: "A Texas water tower built in an open field in a few months officially has more flights under its belt than SLS."

I love it how SpaceX is also playing it for the devout international community of space geeks.

On September 28, Elon commented on Twitter that they plan for a Starship 20 km test, and for a Starship orbital attempt "shortly thereafter."

Does anybody know how they're transporting the F9 rokkits from McGregor to Cape Canaveral/Vandenberg? By ship, or truck?
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:17 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
A comment on youtube: "A Texas water tower built in an open field in a few months officially has more flights under its belt than SLS."

I love it how SpaceX is also playing it for the devout international community of space geeks.

On September 28, Elon commented on Twitter that they plan for a Starship 20 km test, and for a Starship orbital attempt "shortly thereafter."

Does anybody know how they're transporting the F9 rokkits from McGregor to Cape Canaveral/Vandenberg? By ship, or truck?


Truck. From memory the transport method puts some constraints on just how big the Falcon 9 can be.

And don't forget they're built in California. So California -> Texas -> Florida or back to California.
 
WIederling
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:56 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Does anybody know how they're transporting the F9 rokkits from McGregor to Cape Canaveral/Vandenberg? By ship, or truck?


Selfmoving on their own flame obviously :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Sep 03, 2019 8:54 pm

WIederling wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Does anybody know how they're transporting the F9 rokkits from McGregor to Cape Canaveral/Vandenberg? By ship, or truck?


Selfmoving on their own flame obviously :-)


From memory that was honestly the idea when they first proposed Starship and SuperHeavy as they were planning to build them at or near their California facility.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:02 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
WIederling wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
Does anybody know how they're transporting the F9 rokkits from McGregor to Cape Canaveral/Vandenberg? By ship, or truck?


Selfmoving on their own flame obviously :-)


From memory that was honestly the idea when they first proposed Starship and SuperHeavy as they were planning to build them at or near their California facility.


:eyepopping: :eyepopping: :eyepopping:

In other news: SpaceX apparently didn't get messages from ESA, which forced ESA to adjust the orbit of its Aeolus weather satellite in order not to bump into a swarm of Elon's pizza boxes.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _messages/
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
mxaxai
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Sep 05, 2019 11:27 am

flyingturtle wrote:
In other news: SpaceX apparently didn't get messages from ESA, which forced ESA to adjust the orbit of its Aeolus weather satellite in order not to bump into a swarm of Elon's pizza boxes.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _messages/

Aeolus has a very low orbit (320 km), so anything reentering from higher orbits will inevitably cross its path. However, this also means that the 'pizza box' - depending on its ballistic coefficient - will reenter within weeks, or a few months at most. Considering that the orbit decayed from 440 km already, the 'box' likely doesn't have much delta-v left. Its total lifespan will be less than one year ...
 
Oroka
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Sep 05, 2019 12:33 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
In other news: SpaceX apparently didn't get messages from ESA, which forced ESA to adjust the orbit of its Aeolus weather satellite in order not to bump into a swarm of Elon's pizza boxes.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _messages/



Its only news because SpaceX was involved. Anyone mentioning how ESA has to re position satellites 28 times in 2018?
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Sep 05, 2019 1:27 pm

Oroka wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
In other news: SpaceX apparently didn't get messages from ESA, which forced ESA to adjust the orbit of its Aeolus weather satellite in order not to bump into a swarm of Elon's pizza boxes.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _messages/



Its only news because SpaceX was involved. Anyone mentioning how ESA has to re position satellites 28 times in 2018?


It's also news because the pizza boxes are supposed to autonomously change orbits.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
WIederling
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Fri Sep 06, 2019 7:37 am

flyingturtle wrote:
Oroka wrote:
flyingturtle wrote:
In other news: SpaceX apparently didn't get messages from ESA, which forced ESA to adjust the orbit of its Aeolus weather satellite in order not to bump into a swarm of Elon's pizza boxes.

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2019/09/0 ... _messages/



Its only news because SpaceX was involved. Anyone mentioning how ESA has to re position satellites 28 times in 2018?


It's also news because the pizza boxes are supposed to autonomously change orbits.


change orbit and those half bitten boxes follow you. Mist!.
Murphy is an optimist
 
HaveBlue
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Sep 07, 2019 3:43 pm

mxaxai wrote:
Could also be related to high thrust settings. Landing requires more thrust than hovering


Hovering would require more thrust than landing, its heavier at that point and is totally negating the force of gravity whereas on landing it is just partially doing so, right?
 
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Tugger
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Sep 07, 2019 4:51 pm

HaveBlue wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Could also be related to high thrust settings. Landing requires more thrust than hovering


Hovering would require more thrust than landing, its heavier at that point and is totally negating the force of gravity whereas on landing it is just partially doing so, right?

Well, at touchdown, the booster is technically at a "hover" point as it has terminated all downward momentum (the landing legs really are not intended to absorb any of this momentum, just the resting weight of the booster after flight termination). But of course it then stops all trust at that exact moment thereby not requiring "more trust" than active hovering.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
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Nomadd
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sat Sep 07, 2019 5:16 pm

Tugger wrote:
HaveBlue wrote:
mxaxai wrote:
Could also be related to high thrust settings. Landing requires more thrust than hovering


Hovering would require more thrust than landing, its heavier at that point and is totally negating the force of gravity whereas on landing it is just partially doing so, right?

Well, at touchdown, the booster is technically at a "hover" point as it has terminated all downward momentum (the landing legs really are not intended to absorb any of this momentum, just the resting weight of the booster after flight termination). But of course it then stops all trust at that exact moment thereby not requiring "more trust" than active hovering.

Tugg

Don't forget the fuel burn rate. The rocket has to continuously reduce thrust to hover or it would rise as the fuel is burnt. It has to keep reducing thrust as it lands. Even though it's downward acceleration slows, the reducing weight of the fuel counteracts the need for more thrust at the final moment. This thing isn't doing a suicide hoverslam like a Falcon booster. It was suppose to make a gentle landing.

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