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flyingturtle
Posts: 5651
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:14 pm

casinterest wrote:
Tim the Everyday Astronaut led a good interview.


It's so interesting that Elon Musk - in the beginning - just rehashes what is told in every business school. But rarely the companies actually heed that advice...

1. Never optimize what should not be done in the first place.
2. If design is taking too long, settle for another design.
3. Your product reflects your organization. If another department is setting constraints on what you're designing - be aware that these constraints may be faulty.
4. Ask whether the right questions are being asked.

Elon's role is interesting. He dedicated some years to read everything on rocket design and space exploration. He's as much a boss as he is an engineer.

Regarding the aerospike engine - which has high efficiencies across all air densities - he basically said that too much work is needed to make them as nearly as efficient as those inverted buckets where things are mixed and ignited.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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casinterest
Posts: 9252
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Oct 02, 2019 9:18 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
casinterest wrote:
Tim the Everyday Astronaut led a good interview.


It's so interesting that Elon Musk - in the beginning - just rehashes what is told in every business school. But rarely the companies actually heed that advice...

1. Never optimize what should not be done in the first place.
2. If design is taking too long, settle for another design.
3. Your product reflects your organization. If another department is setting constraints on what you're designing - be aware that these constraints may be faulty.
4. Ask whether the right questions are being asked.

Elon's role is interesting. He dedicated some years to read everything on rocket design and space exploration. He's as much a boss as he is an engineer.

Regarding the aerospike engine - which has high efficiencies across all air densities - he basically said that too much work is needed to make them as nearly as efficient as those inverted buckets where things are mixed and ignited.


It's the time and money issue.
and although these issues are rehashed in business school, it doesn't get played out often, because too many people are too attached to their pet projects, and pleasing those on top, and are scared to take it to scrap and make it better. Having Musk at the top believing this makes an organization better and more organic. it's the old Steve Jobs vs. John Sculley fight.
Where ever you go, there you are.
 
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Nomadd
Posts: 243
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Wed Oct 02, 2019 10:02 pm

texl1649 wrote:

From what I know stainless steel is vastly heavier than carbon fiber. Is this just for the test phase it will be built like a farm implement?


Everybody knew that. Everybody knew wrong. It doesn't matter how much a cubic inch of the material weighs. It matters how much the spaceship weighs. Carbon fiber would have needed so much heat shielding that the ship would have ended up weighing more than stainless steel in the end. Carbon fiber would also cost about fifty times as much and would have required a lot more infrastructure. Modifying and repairing would have been a lot more complicated and the time developing and building would have been much greater.
They're building these things almost for free compared to any other outfit. The engines are coming off the line for around a million dollars each compared to twenty times that much for comparable engines. They figured out that the great expense and difficulty of using any kind of composite to get another 20% payload just didn't make sense. And it looks like it wouldn't even have helped with payload.
They already have rolls of steel laying around for MK3. One piece hoops with a single vertical seam.

The guy is definitely an exceptional CEO. When he heard the locals were getting restless he got seven of them in a room and spent an hour talking to them after the presentation.
 
DarkKnight5
Posts: 192
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:31 am

texl1649 wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Nomadd wrote:
It's amazing what a focused, very intelligent billionaire, who's willing to spend billions and not hoard them into portfolio investments, can do.

We need more billionaires like him (and Bezos comes to mind of course) that just pour their wealth back into things like this (real world production and manufacturing and building etc.).

Tugg


Well, fortunately for humanity Warren/Sanders have a plan to deal with/eliminate those pesky billionaires. I do agree though, it takes a creative billionaire not beholden to a skeptical private equity/venture capital fund to make something like this even close to feasible.

From what I know stainless steel is vastly heavier than carbon fiber. Is this just for the test phase it will be built like a farm implement?

There are myriad factors to consider, including mass, how much mass must be supported by that structural mass, how thick the structure needs to be to support that mass, how that structure holds up in both extremely hot and extremely cold environs, cost of material, and who knows how many others.

Very smart people at SpaceX have determined advanced stainless steel is the most efficient material for Starship when everything is factored.
 
Planeflyer
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Oct 03, 2019 12:58 pm

New space companies like SpaceX are entrepreneurial organizations rather than government contractors.

There is a lesson here for the pentagon. I hope someone over is there is trying to figure out how to redefine the weapons market as NASA did the space market.
 
dtw2hyd
Posts: 7098
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 12:11 pm

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Oct 03, 2019 2:49 pm

I like the use of steel concept. The carbon fiber fabrication skill, time and cost seem to negate its benefit. $130K/lb vs $2.5k/lb and steel be welded outdoors, rather than getting it fabricated in a couple of places in the world and ship to launch site, I think Musk should be given a chance.
 
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flyingturtle
Posts: 5651
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Oct 03, 2019 4:44 pm

Could they have built a stainless steel Space Shuttle if they had figured out how to do a deceleration burn high enough in order to avoid, err, the other burn?

Perhaps they could have settled on a main tank that is jettisoned just before de-orbiting.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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Phosphorus
Posts: 612
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Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Thu Oct 03, 2019 5:48 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
Could they have built a stainless steel Space Shuttle if they had figured out how to do a deceleration burn high enough in order to avoid, err, the other burn?

Perhaps they could have settled on a main tank that is jettisoned just before de-orbiting.


Before a single-orbit flight option was made mandatory -- requested by US DoD -- the original Space Shuttle design foresaw simpler materials, conventional (rather than delta-shaped) stubby wing shape, etc. The idea was to take advantage of a shockwave during re-entry, a bit like capsule re-entry profile, until getting closer to the surface -- where wings could be taken advantage of.

As DoD insisted on "snatch-and-run in a single orbit" option, Shuttle was made delta-shaped, with shallow and risky re-entry profile, and that necessitated deployment of most advanced, very expensive and often unorthodox materials and solutions.

If original shuttle shape was used, stainless steel would still not be as good for the underbelly. Look for capsules bottom (Gemini, Apollo, Soyuz) for inspiration -- what could be good shuttle underbelly material in this scenario. For the rest of the structure -- I don't know.

But if you do look for a rocket design to benefit from availability of modern stainless steel -- probably Sea Dragon would be a good candidate:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Dragon_(rocket)
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 E95 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
mxaxai
Posts: 1152
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Fri Oct 11, 2019 5:47 pm

After the recent talk with Elon, Everyday Astronaut got a conversation with NASA admin Jim Bridenstine. I'm amazed how far a YouTube career can take you. Bridenstine is very careful to show support for all three crewed launchers, and avoid a competitive "X is better than Y". Doesn't appear to be fully convinced of BFR/Starship yet, though. https://youtu.be/TU_vOt3wSDg
 
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Nomadd
Posts: 243
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2017 3:26 pm

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Sun Oct 13, 2019 5:22 am

It looks like they've started the third Starship prototype (MK 3) at Boca Chica. This time with single piece 6 foot hoops from rolls.
Image
 
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Tugger
Topic Author
Posts: 9400
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Mon Oct 14, 2019 12:23 am

mxaxai wrote:
After the recent talk with Elon, Everyday Astronaut got a conversation with NASA admin Jim Bridenstine. I'm amazed how far a YouTube career can take you. Bridenstine is very careful to show support for all three crewed launchers, and avoid a competitive "X is better than Y". Doesn't appear to be fully convinced of BFR/Starship yet, though. https://youtu.be/TU_vOt3wSDg

Bridenstine said it was “fly, test, fix” but isn't it actually "test fly fix"?

Test
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. - W. Shatner
Productivity isn’t about getting more things done, rather it’s about getting the right things done, while doing less. - M. Oshin
 
Trololzilla
Posts: 126
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 11:53 pm

Re: SpaceX - Tests, Launches, Developments

Tue Oct 15, 2019 3:09 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8JyvzU0CXU

Starship launch animation, courtesy of SpaceX.

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