Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

notaxonrotax · Sat May 09, 2015 12:04 pm

Hi,

apparently an A400 crashed on a Coca Cola factory in Spain!

Can not find an English source yet!

No Tax On Rotax

CXfirst · Sat May 09, 2015 12:07 pm

http://news.sky.com/story/1480806/mi...y-plane-crashes-near-seville-spain

No details at time of posting, but photo of lots of smoke.

-CXfirst

scouseflyer · Sat May 09, 2015 12:09 pm

Is this likely to be a test plane or one from the Spanish airforce?

Thunderboltdrgn · Sat May 09, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting scouseflyer (Reply 2):
Is this likely to be a test plane or one from the Spanish airforce?

From what I have read from Spanish sources, this was a customer aircraft that hadn't been
delivered to the customer at the time of the crash.

insightAVIATION · Sat May 09, 2015 12:18 pm

Don't know anything about the frame unfortunately, but here's a news-story with some more photos:

http://spanishvida.com/2015/05/09/military-plane-crashes-in-seville/

petertenthije · Sat May 09, 2015 12:21 pm

On the scramble forum someone looked up the TR24 details. Based on the callsign it's probably c/n 23. That would make it the first A400 intended for the Turkish Air Force. First flight for this frame as well. The same post mentioned it made a sharp left turn immediately after departure and then crashed.

SAS A340 · Sat May 09, 2015 12:35 pm

Aj aj aj....really bad news.....

zeke · Sat May 09, 2015 12:59 pm

Rip, very sad day for the test team.

kalpaperera1 · Sat May 09, 2015 1:26 pm

Check this, it's got a screenshot from FR24 as well. Clearly they tried to get back to the airport.

Sad day for A400M, RIP crew

https://twitter.com/airlivenet

LTU932 · Sat May 09, 2015 1:30 pm

Flightradar24 is flooding my Twitter timeline with data on the crash. For example, during the climb, the vertical speed changed radically from 1664 fpm to -2994 fpm. According to them, it's MSN 023, flying as CASA423.

kalpaperera1 · Sat May 09, 2015 1:45 pm

RT is reporting 3 dead and 2 possible survivors. Number of crew on--board is still unsure.

[url = http://rt.com/news/257185-spain-plane-crash-factory/]

Thunderboltdrgn · Sat May 09, 2015 1:48 pm

Quoting Kalpaperera1 (Reply 8):
Sad day for A400M, RIP crew

Reuters claims that Spanish emergency service says that two crew members are still alive
but seriously injured.

Quoting @ReutersAero:

Spanish emergency services say 7 on crashed A400M in Seville; 3 dead, 2 seriously injured,
2 unaccounted for #CASA423

Mortyman · Sat May 09, 2015 1:50 pm

Apparently the pilots reported problems just before the Aircraft crashed into a high voltage Tower near the runway

In Norwegian

http://www.nrk.no/verden/transportfl...sjet-like-etter-takeoff-1.12352949

Apparently no Survivors of the ones on the Aircraft. But two heavely injured on the ground

[Edited 2015-05-09 06:54:38]

Spacepope · Sat May 09, 2015 2:23 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 5):
Based on the callsign it's probably c/n 23. That would make it the first A400 intended for the Turkish Air Force.

Turkey already has 2 in service, C/n 9 and 13.

kaitak · Sat May 09, 2015 2:24 pm

Sky News is reporting that all personnel on board are Airbus personnel, not Turkish air force.

Thunderboltdrgn · Sat May 09, 2015 2:48 pm

Quoting kaitak (Reply 14):
Sky News is reporting that all personnel on board are
Airbus personnel, not Turkish air force.

It was the MSN23's first flight.

Quoting FR24:

The crashed Airbus A400M with serial number 23 was on its first flight & was intended
for Turkish Air Force #CASA423

glider1 · Sat May 09, 2015 2:57 pm

This is what is available in German:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/airbu...spanien-abgestuerzt-a-1032993.html

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 2:58 pm

Some clear pictures here.

http://elpais.com/elpais/2015/05/09/....html#1431179061_911910_1431179906

Does not look like a Coca Cola Factory to me.

More info here.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...ring-test-flight-near-Seville.html

Regards.

B8887

AWACSooner · Sat May 09, 2015 3:06 pm

Quoting petertenthije (Reply 5):
That would make it the first A400 intended for the Turkish Air Force. First flight for this frame as well.

Then what was that Turkish A400 doing at EGUN a few months back when I was beating up the pattern there?

AirlineCritic · Sat May 09, 2015 3:09 pm

First things first, my thoughts are with the lost crew and their families. A terrible tragedy.

It sounds like two people may be alive but in serious condition, three dead, and some missing. If the information about 8-10 people on board is correct, that would still leave 3-5 more dead. Terrible.

(Are there really 10 people in the aircraft on its first flight?)

It will be interesting to learn what happened. First flight... one suspects of manufacturing issue, but we'll see. In any case, this can be a significant blow to the A400M program.

Aesma · Sat May 09, 2015 3:13 pm

Holy sh !

Thoughts are with the crew and families.

In a case like this you don't know if you're hoping it's a plane problem or a crew problem, since the airplane was brand new and the pilots should be very good. Or a bit of both as with the A330 test flight crash.

First flight so unless they were trying to do some not so smart maneuver right away, I guess it must be the plane.

Finn350 · Sat May 09, 2015 3:17 pm

A very sad day due to loss of lives...

Airbus website and Twitter feed doesn't mention the crash at all. I suppose an airline manufacturer doesn't have a communication plan for a plane crash like this where no passengers are involved.

kalpaperera1 · Sat May 09, 2015 3:24 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 21):
Airbus website and Twitter feed doesn't mention the crash at all. I suppose an airline manufacturer doesn't have a communication plan for a plane crash like this where no passengers are involved.

Airbus did issue a statement on their Airbus military website.
http://militaryaircraft-airbusds.com...368/Accident-A400M-in-Seville.aspx

Thunderboltdrgn · Sat May 09, 2015 3:27 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 21):
Airbus website and Twitter feed doesn't mention the crash at all

It does:

Quoting Airbus:

We confirm an accident to an A400M aircraft. … More information will be released as
soon as possible http://militaryaircraft-airbusds.com...368/Accident-A400M-in-Seville.aspx

.

Quoting Airbus:

Accident #A400M in Seville http://bit.ly/1F5AjU2

A350 · Sat May 09, 2015 3:38 pm

My thoughts are with the Crew and their families.

Sorry for a stupid question: do Military Transport aircraft still owned by the civil manufacturing company have FDRs and CVRs?

Regards

A350

Aesma · Sat May 09, 2015 3:42 pm

The A400M follows many civilian rules to fly in civilian airways so there is no doubt it has black boxes.

Finn350 · Sat May 09, 2015 3:47 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 25):
It does:

Quoting Kalpaperera1 (Reply 22):
Airbus did issue a statement on their Airbus military website.

Thanks, I didn't notice Airbus Military website and Twitter feed.

Quoting a350 (Reply 24):
Sorry for a stupid question: do Military Transport aircraft still owned by the civil manufacturing company have FDRs and CVRs?

A400M has a full civil type certificate, so it has FDRs and CVRs as far as I understand.

Quote:
Award of the Type Certificate makes the A400M the world’s first large military transport to be designed and certified to civil standards from its inception

Source: http://militaryaircraft-airbusds.com...il-type-certificate-from-EASA.aspx

Being a test flight, a lot of flight data must have been downlinked in real time, too.

...after second thoughts, as it was not a test aircraft there probably was no downlink of data.

[Edited 2015-05-09 08:49:42]

[Edited 2015-05-09 08:54:26]

LTU932 · Sat May 09, 2015 4:51 pm

Quoting glider1 (Reply 16):
This is what is available in German:

http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/airbu...spanien-abgestuerzt-a-1032993.html

The German Army is suspending test flights of the A400M pending the result of the investigation. The RAF has suspended their A400M test flights for the same reason as well.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-32673988

ivanpaneque · Sat May 09, 2015 5:00 pm

this is one exactly in testing the last received

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68cAM4CHdHc

7BOEING7 · Sat May 09, 2015 5:02 pm

This is probably the first time a large aircraft (737/320 or bigger) made by Airbus, Boeing, etc has been lost during a routine production flight in over 60 years.

airboeingbus · Sat May 09, 2015 5:07 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):

I think an A330 crashed during flight testing back in the early 90's?

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 5:11 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):
This is probably the first time a large aircraft (737/320 or bigger) made by Airbus, Boeing, etc has been lost during a routine production flight in over 60 years.

You might want to rethink that statement.

We had a thread on this recently. I cannot find it. Aircraft crashes involving prototypes, nearly new or new aircraft have been very common for at least 70 years.

Can anyone find the thread?

Regards.

B8887

[Edited 2015-05-09 10:23:50]

kalpaperera1 · Sat May 09, 2015 5:13 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):

This is probably the first time a large aircraft (737/320 or bigger) made by Airbus, Boeing, etc has been lost during a routine production flight in over 60 years

Nope, Airbus had a crash in 1994 killing all 7 on-board an A333, if I am not mistaken it was Airbus flight 129

Aesma · Sat May 09, 2015 5:18 pm

That was a botched one engine go around, not a routine production flight.

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 5:26 pm

Found it.

Newest Aircraft Involved In Hull-loss Incidents? (by S75752 Mar 3 2015 in Civil Aviation)

Regards.

B8887

KarelXWB · Sat May 09, 2015 5:29 pm

The flight path provided by FR24:

http://twitter.com/flightradar24/status/597028089072381952/

7BOEING7 · Sat May 09, 2015 5:47 pm

Quoting airboeingbus (Reply 30):
I think an A330 crashed during flight testing back in the early 90's?

Quoting Kalpaperera1 (Reply 32):
Nope, Airbus had a crash in 1994 killing all 7 on-board an A333, if I am not mistaken it was Airbus flight 129

June 1994 to be exact, but that was an "experimental" flight which generally carries more risk than a "production" flight.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 31):
You might want to rethink that statement.

I believe neither Airbus or Boeing has ever lost an airplane during a "production" flight, if you have other information to the contrary please provide it.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 33):
That was a botched one engine go around, not a routine production flight.

Actually it was a simulated engine failure during takeoff, but as you said "not a routine production flight".

AirlineCritic · Sat May 09, 2015 5:49 pm

Hmm. Speed was relatively constant, except for the slight increase towards the end. But altitude dropped suddenly.

And at the time of the change in vertical speed, speed first decayed for the first 30 seconds around 10:55:35-10:56:10.

Wondering what that might mean.

If the aircraft was climbing quickly at speeds smaller than 150 kts, then it clearly had enough speed to maintain level flight even after 10:56.

Somewhere between 1000 and 2000 feet you would also retract flaps. Failure in retracting them on right side and asymmetric stall to the left, leading to the turn?

Or some other control failure.

It could of course be mere loss of engines... but it would not explain how they can fly at that speed and still lose altitude. I mean of course you will lose altitude without power, but compared to the take-off part the loss of altitude should have occurred with far smaller speeds, and they never slowed down so much.

[Edited 2015-05-09 10:50:10]

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 6:06 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
I believe neither Airbus or Boeing has ever lost an airplane during a "production" flight, if you have other information to the contrary please provide it.

You should probably read this,

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):
This is probably the first time a large aircraft (737/320 or bigger) made by Airbus, Boeing, etc has been lost during a routine production flight in over 60 years.

and this,

Newest Aircraft Involved In Hull-loss Incidents? (by S75752 Mar 3 2015 in Civil Aviation)

very carefully, and then you come back to me again.

Regards.

B8887

Finn350 · Sat May 09, 2015 6:12 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 38):
You should probably read this very carefully

There are certification, acceptance and delivery flight crashes mentioned in the thread, but I couldn't find a single production or first flight crash in the thread.

KarelXWB · Sat May 09, 2015 6:25 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 39):
but I couldn't find a single production or first flight crash in the thread.

The EY A340 comes to mind. While not a flight crash, the jet was damaged beyond repair during an engine test.

KarelXWB · Sat May 09, 2015 6:29 pm

Meanwhile the RAF has suspended all A400M operations.

http://twitter.com/ReutersAero/status/597079329735053312

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 6:40 pm

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 40):
The EY A340 comes to mind. While not a flight crash, the jet was damaged beyond repair during an engine test.

Additionally to this one, I can see in the thread at least two more crashes that meet the criteria: aircraft certified, in service, flight operated by plane manufacturer prior to delivery to customer.

Regards.

B8887

7BOEING7 · Sat May 09, 2015 6:51 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 39):
There are certification, acceptance and delivery flight crashes mentioned in the thread, but I couldn't find a single production or first flight crash in the thread.

The closest to filling the criteria are two Douglas DC-7's, one of which was a midair and the other was a Braniff 707 that was doing an acceptance/training flight -- all in 1958/1959. I guess maybe I should have said "in the last 55 years".

B8887 · Sat May 09, 2015 7:13 pm

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 43):

The closest to filling the criteria are two Douglas DC-7's, one of which was a midair and the other was a Braniff 707 that was doing an acceptance/training flight -- all in 1958/1959. I guess maybe I should have said "in the last 55 years".

Ok, no worries. That thread was actually very surprising to me too. Never knew there were that many. Like the story of crashing a brand new car on the first turn out of the garage..

In this particular crash. What line number/serial number was it?

Regards.

B8887

tomcbaker · Sat May 09, 2015 7:18 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 38):
Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 36):
I believe neither Airbus or Boeing has ever lost an airplane during a "production" flight, if you have other information to the contrary please provide it.

You should probably read this,

Quoting 7BOEING7 (Reply 29):
This is probably the first time a large aircraft (737/320 or bigger) made by Airbus, Boeing, etc has been lost during a routine production flight in over 60 years.

and this,

Newest Aircraft Involved In Hull-loss Incidents? (by S75752 Mar 3 2015 in Civil Aviation)

very carefully, and then you come back to me again.

Regards.

B8887

Nothing I'm reading from the previous thread or on here so far (including the EY A340) qualifies as a production flight crash. So I'm not entirely sure it's fair to say he needs to read what you/others are saying "very carefully" - perhaps the pot calling the kettle black, although it's all semantics.

Thunderboltdrgn · Sat May 09, 2015 7:35 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 44):
In this particular crash. What line number/serial number was it?

It was MSN23, see post 9:

Quoting LTU932 (Reply 9):
Flightradar24 is flooding my Twitter timeline with data on the crash.
For example, during the climb, the vertical speed changed radically from 1664 fpm to -2994 fpm.
According to them, it's MSN 023, flying as CASA423.

[Edited 2015-05-09 12:36:53]

11Bravo · Sat May 09, 2015 8:04 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 31):
Aircraft crashes involving prototypes, nearly new or new aircraft have been very common for at least 70 years.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 42):
Additionally to this one, I can see in the thread at least two more crashes that meet the criteria: aircraft certified, in service, flight operated by plane manufacturer prior to delivery to customer.

How is any of that "Very Common"? I think a more objective description might be "Extraordinarily Rare"

KPDX · Sat May 09, 2015 8:42 pm

Sad news!

I imagine that has to be one of the worst fears of a test pilot... (Potential) controlability issue immediately after take off. Stuff of nightmares...

viasa · Sat May 09, 2015 8:45 pm

Was it on the first flight of this frame or "only" on a testflight?

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