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hivue
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 12:18 am

Quoting par13del (Reply 199):
I think this will relate to providing the investigators with anything they require.

Alonso made the comment publicly to the media, not just to the investigators.

Quoting par13del (Reply 199):
Unfortunately, for those who would like to see information released on the final findings of the cause of the accident, this provides no comfort as Airbus is not conducting the investigation

I guarantee you Airbus will be provided all the results of the investigation.
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par13del
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 12:45 am

Quoting hivue (Reply 200):
Alonso made the comment publicly to the media, not just to the investigators.

Sure, but the context is in relation to the investigation and any information requested from them by the investigating authorities.

Quoting hivue (Reply 200):
I guarantee you Airbus will be provided all the results of the investigation.

Which does not mean that they can then release them to the public, which is what a number of posters would like to see happen. As it is not an Airbus led investigation, the responsibility to release information to the public does not rest with them.
Example, the recorder has been sent to L3 in Florida, they may have made similar statements like Airbus, they will be open and provide any assistance requested of them etc etc etc. So would you expect them to release any info provided to to Spain from their analysis of the black box data?
 
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ssteve
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 3:53 am

Quoting B8887 (Reply 198):

One of the black boxes was sent to the US for further analysis.

To the manufacturer.
 
B8887
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 10:08 am

Airbus to order engine-related checks following the crash.

Link:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...airbus-a400m-idUSL5N0YA22220150519

On a side note, I think this thread reached the 32767 views around the reply 160 mark, which means that by now it must have around 41k views in total.

Regards.

B8887
 
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Heavierthanair
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 10:34 am

G'day

Per Der Spiegel three of the engines were cut off immediately after the take off due to a software related issue

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...ftware-problemen-ab-a-1034421.html


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AirlineCritic
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 11:33 am

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 204):
Per Der Spiegel three of the engines were cut off immediately after the take off due to a software related issue

Very interesting. Two days after the accident, GRIVely and several of us others predicted that this might be possible reason for the accident.

But if the claims are true, I cannot fathom how Airbus continued its test flights. But it is possible of course that the software problems were already then somehow apparent, and had an obvious cause (such as the installation of wrong software version).
 
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anfromme
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 11:38 am

If the SPIEGEL report turns out to be accurate, this definitely sounds like a reason to ground the fleet until the cause has been rectified and the fix verified. According to the article, the issue was partly that the engines got contradictory input and then the software switched them off. Implementing and validating a failsafe mode that even in the face of contradictory input goes to some set of engine parameters that don't endanger the safety of the flight is probably not something that can be done in a couple of days.

In any case, it's chilling reading that the engines switched off and the crew weren't and wouldn't have been able to turn them back on again.

[Edited 2015-05-19 04:40:17]
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 12:15 pm

Quoting B8887 (Reply 203):
Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 204):

Still no change to the information that was posted the day after the crash. If I am not mistaken, they have even reused the video interview from their earlier article posted above http://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unt...on-triebwerkschaden-a-1033103.html
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 1:33 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 207):
Still no change to the information that was posted the day after the crash.

It was known that three engines had stopped. It was not being said publicly if this was the fuel itself, or a mechanical, electrical, computer hardware or computer software issue.

Now a Google translation of the Spiegel article says:

Quote:

On Tuesday sent to all customers of the Airbus A400M an urgent alarm. According to the so-called "alert Operator Transmission" (AOT), the detected software problems can result in a "failure of the engine control". That's why Airbus have all customers informed about the "necessary actions" to address the problem.

So perhaps the information has not changed, but it certainly has expanded.
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Finn350
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 1:46 pm

Quoting Heavierthanair (Reply 204):
Per Der Spiegel three of the engines were cut off immediately after the take off due to a software related issue

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan....html

According to the article, there was a real-time downlink of data from the plane, and the findings are apparently based on the downlinked data.

If the article is accurate, there is an engine control software problem. I am baffled why the whole fleet was not grounded, as the problem appears not to be specific to MSN023.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 2:28 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 209):
I am baffled why the whole fleet was not grounded, as the problem appears not to be specific to MSN023.

As above:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 208):
That's why Airbus have all customers informed about the "necessary actions" to address the problem.

That suggests they know what the issue is already, no?

From Reuters ( http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...airbus-a400m-idUSL5N0YA28V20150519 )

Quote:

However, one person familiar with the findings said preliminary evidence gathered so far appeared to suggest a "quality" problem rather than a fundamental design flaw.

Also suggests they know what happened.

Quote:

One person familiar with the probe said investigators were expected to focus on whether a faulty device had been fitted without adequate verification.

Others said the fleet-wide checks were intended to check whether any more serious flaws had slipped through the thousands of hours of flight testing, something considered unlikely by people involved in steering the project out of past crises.

Seems to suggest the issue is that an improper device and/or improper software load was in use.

AFP via Yahoo says:

Quote:

Paris (AFP) - Airbus on Tuesday warned of a technical glitch potentially affecting the engines of its A400M that was discovered during an internal test after one of the military planes crashed in Spain.

The company said in a statement it had sent out an alert to its clients urging them to carry out "specific checks of the Electronic Control Units (ECU) on each of the aircraft's engines."

The ECU controls how the aircraft's engine operates.

The potential flaw was uncovered during internal checks separate from an official investigation into the crash of an A400M cargo plane near Seville in which four people were killed ten days ago.

Specific checks could be for improper devices and/or software loads.

The theme of the statements so far is that this is a "quality control" issue.

Given that the last head of Airbus Military was fired and Alonzo has his new job because of concerns around quality ( ref: http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/...a400m-alonso-idUSL6N0V84NN20150129 ), having a crash blamed on quality would be a big negative for the program.
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Okie
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 2:30 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 209):
If the article is accurate, there is an engine control software problem. I am baffled why the whole fleet was not grounded, as the problem appears not to be specific to MSN023.

Obviously about the only single point failure to cause the issue but that has not been confirmed.

Quoting B8887 (Reply 198):
Kind of an unexpected update.One of the black boxes was sent to the US for further analysis

IF big IF, there was a software issue it makes me wonder that the reason for the problems downloading the data from the recorders is that the data is corrupted from the software issue and it appears as gibberish on the download.
Again just a thought because it appears there have been several attempts to download and seem to not have been successful.


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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 2:31 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 208):

People will continue to ignore accurate information like in reply 77, 87, and 95, and then will find a snippet of an news article that has no new information to draw false conclusions and fuel speculation.

It has been clearly stated by myself that they have a good idea of what happened, and they have a witness, the data, and the airframe.

Your post is not accurate, it is speculation.

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 209):

The article is not accurate, if 3 engines "cut off immediately after takeoff" the aircraft would not have climbed to 1500' while accelerating.
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hivue
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 2:44 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 210):
The potential flaw was uncovered during internal checks separate from an official investigation into the crash of an A400M cargo plane near Seville in which four people were killed ten days ago.

So apparently the AOT could be unrelated to the crash?

From the Reuters article:
"So far, no clues have emerged from the 'black box' flight recorders and the potential area of concern that led to the checks was discovered by Airbus itself.

'It is a precautionary measure which is part of our continued airworthiness activities,' a spokeswoman said."

[Edited 2015-05-19 07:54:49]
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jollo
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 2:59 pm

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 205):
Very interesting. Two days after the accident, GRIVely and several of us others predicted that this might be possible reason for the accident.

It wasn't the result of a very sophisticated line of reasoning: how many single points of failure can simultaneously affect enough engines to bring down a highly redundant and overpowered beast like a A400M (lightly loaded for first flight)? Barring external events (e.g. flock of birds, fuel contamination, etc.) that would be known by now.

BTW, the only aerospace design that I know of with redundant *software* was the Space Shuttle: two independently developed and maintained flight systems were always running simultaneously, with the Backup Flight System (BFD) ready to instantaneously take charge of the flight in case of a software-related Primary Avionics Software System (PASS) malfunction.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 205):
But it is possible of course that the software problems were already then somehow apparent, and had an obvious cause (such as the installation of wrong software version).


It's called Change Management: once you identify the source of an issue, you can determine with certainity which builds are affected and which aren't. It's just a guess, but *if* this was a software issue, it's better than even money that a) it involved an interface between major sub-systems (typical source of rare, hard to test boundary conditions), and b) once Airbus knew what to look for, they found it very quickly.

MSN4 could then either have been found or made to have a "safe" build (respective to the particular issue at hand), and the "Alonso flight" would have incurred in no additonal risks than any other previous test flight. Disclaimer: this is just an hypothesis, supported by nothing but armchair software engineering.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 3:13 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 212):
People will continue to ignore accurate information like in reply 77, 87, and 95

When I look at those replies:

Quoting zeke (Reply 77):
What I am hearing is they have an idea what happened, it is not exactly as the press have described.
Quoting zeke (Reply 87):
Internally they may have a very good idea, hence the reason why test and production flying has been continued.
Quoting zeke (Reply 95):
The investigators have the wreckage, data, and a witness. it is not like they are still looking for the aircraft with no idea what happened.

I do not see "information", I just see an anonymous internet forum user saying he knows the company knows what is going on but isn't saying what that is. How is that information?

Quoting zeke (Reply 212):
then will find a snippet of an news article that has no new information to draw false conclusions and fuel speculation

Whatever. This is a discussion forum. I posted information from three articles from three different well-known news organizations. You posted, exactly what? Certainly nothing that warranted any discussion, and indeed it did not generate any discussion. If it had, how would that discussion go? Well, Zeke knows what happened, and that's good enough for us, let's go to some other forum and discuss something else because Zeke has this all figured out?

In short, you look silly trying to tell people to not have discussions on a discussion forum.

[Edited 2015-05-19 08:25:18]
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 5:40 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 215):
This is a discussion forum. I posted information from three articles from three different well-known news organizations.

Airbus is not allowed to release any information, and a Spanish judge has prevented information being released. I have not posted anything which is not permitted to be released.

You could post 1000 articles from the press, they may all originate from the same wire, repeating something does not make it factual or more correct.

Nothing you have posted from the press has been attributed to any official source, and it is rehashing information appearing soon after the crash.

I repeat again, NOTHING you have posted has come from an official source. It has come from organisations that derive their income from people looking at their articles, if it right or wrong, they still earn money.

I earn nothing from what I posted, all I get in return is personal attacks instead of thanks.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 215):
You posted, exactly what?

What I posted is for all to see, your personal attacks on me for being steadfast factual is also for all to see.

I posted above they had a good idea of what happened, they had the data, they had a witness, and they have the airframe. That was the full extent of the facts, more than what was in the press. I made those comments well over a week ago.

I also pointed out the obvious error in the article. no aircraft climbs to 1500' and accelerates if 3 out of 4 engines fail immediately after takeoff. yet despite that level of reporting, you are taking that over what I have posted.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 215):
In short, you look silly trying to tell people to not have discussions on a discussion forum.

Stop the lies and underhanded insults. Recognize that nothing you have posted from the press has come from an official source. Recognize any speculation you have made based upon those news articles, is based upon other peoples speculation.
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 6:31 pm

Quoting zeke (Reply 216):
Recognize that nothing you have posted from the press has come from an official source.

To state the obvious: nothing I've posted from the press comes from an official source. I have no problem stating this: I gave the source of the information so people could evaluate it in the proper context. As for you, I see an anonymous internet forum user saying he knows the company knows what is going on but isn't saying what that is, and I don't find that to be informative. Not sure why you think that's a personal attack.

Quoting zeke (Reply 216):
I repeat again, NOTHING you have posted has come from an official source. It has come from organisations that derive their income from people looking at their articles, if it right or wrong, they still earn money.

Which is an admission that it might be right. If it was never right, they would go out of business. Most of us value a free and functioning press. Official sources are fine, but most of us want more than that.
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 6:45 pm

Boys... lets cool it a bit. Zeke has posted his information, Revelation and others have posted his information, in both cases it has been very clear what the information is and isn't. You may have differing opinions about what information is valuable and trustworthy, but .... we can all make those determinations. No need for you to argue whose information is better. And yes, there is no official information.
 
redflyer
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 6:57 pm

AW is reporting that a new software seems to have cut-off the fuel supply:

Sources have told Aviation Week that aircraft MSN23, destined for Turkey, featured new software that would trim the fuel tanks, allowing the aircraft to fly certain military maneuvers.

The sources state that the exact sequence of events is not yet clear, nor is it clear whether all four engines failed at some point. Some reports have suggested three engines failed. There also seems to have been a trimming issue leading to strong banking that was not recoverable.

The fuel supply was re-established, but not quickly enough for recovery to safe flight.


http://aviationweek.com/awin-only/so...are-cut-fuel-supply-stricken-a400m
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Finn350
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 7:06 pm

Quoting redflyer (Reply 219):
Sources have told Aviation Week that aircraft MSN23, destined for Turkey, featured new software that would trim the fuel tanks, allowing the aircraft to fly certain military maneuvers.

If the information is accurate, a new software release makes the chain of events logical and explains the whole fleet was not grounded. I would have expected them to test new software releases on test airframes, though.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 7:31 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 220):
I would have expected them to test new software releases on test airframes, though.

Yes, and when you have an actual official Airbus notice to take "necessary actions" for "one-time checks on the electronic control units" ( ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-check-engine-controls-after-crash ) and add that to SPECULATIVE PRESS REPORTS suggesting it's more of a quality/installation issue one can SPECULATE that PERHAPS the wrong software was in use, because indeed no one would expect to see a test of new software on the first flight of an all-new airframe.
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hivue
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 7:34 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 220):
I would have expected them to test new software releases on test airframes, though.

They may very well have. The AWST article simply calls the software "new," not "untested."

On a different subject: would an ECU be just a FADEC by another name?

[Edited 2015-05-19 12:36:33]
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 9:50 pm

First, I make the observation that unless all these reports just made up, the leaks are coming in. We didn't have to wait for long  
Quoting Revelation (Reply 221):
when you have an actual official Airbus notice to take "necessary actions" for "one-time checks on the electronic control units" ( ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-check-engine-controls-after-crash ) and add that to SPECULATIVE PRESS REPORTS suggesting it's more of a quality/installation issue one can SPECULATE that PERHAPS the wrong software was in use, because indeed no one would expect to see a test of new software on the first flight of an all-new airframe.

This seems like a reasonable theory. Thanks.
 
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larshjort
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 9:59 pm

Quoting hivue (Reply 222):
Edited

ECU = Engine Control Unit
FADEC = Full Authority Dual Engine Control unit

It is possible they are referring to the FADEC. The TP400 has a FADEC.
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Okie
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 10:33 pm

Quoting larshjort (Reply 224):
It is possible they are referring to the FADEC. The TP400 has a FADEC.

I would doubt the FADEC. They had issues clear back in 2009 with certifying the software for the FADEC which took more than a year. I would doubt that would be the issue since the plane has been operational for sometime.

Quoting redflyer (Reply 219):
AW is reporting that a new software seems to have cut-off the fuel supply:

Sources have told Aviation Week that aircraft MSN23, destined for Turkey, featured new software that would trim the fuel tanks, allowing the aircraft to fly certain military maneuvers.

This would be a first guess since that is the only thing new to this particular aircraft and not installed on others that we are aware of at this time but there has been no official information released.
This may be why Airbus seems confident that there is no relations to other A400M aircraft in service.

Okie
 
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Tue May 19, 2015 10:46 pm

FWIW, even if Airbus is certain that this software is not installed on other aircraft, obviously this case opens some very serious questions about why this certified (or not) software was on this aircraft and how well it was tested. Experience one bug, look for more and find a thousand other bugs... mark me worried.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 7:36 am

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 223):

What you are seeing is like the Airasia A320 crash, there was a red oeb issued after an issue with a different airline in a different phase of flight and then the trolls with the tin foil hats come out and say that was the cause. Coincidence is not cause.

Eec software upgrades are not that uncommon, and the testing is very extensive, minimum it would be DO178B.

Quoting larshjort (Reply 224):

The ecu pcu or eec depending on who makes the engine is the computer physically on the engine, fadec is the whole system including getting the data from the cockpit to the engine electrically rather than mechanically. Most fuel injected cars these days have a eec/ecu the various sensor feed in then it controls the fuel injection and ignition, same on a turbine however more inputs and outputs.

Quoting AirlineCritic (Reply 218):

People are free to believe what they like, however when I have made a clear and unambiguous identification of a problem in the rubbish in the press, that being you don't climb and accelerate if you have a triple engine failure immediately after takeoff.

Everone knows that the standard thrust reduction altitude for turbine aircraft is 1500 ft, the speed and climb schedule after takeoff to 1500' looks absolutely normal.
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KarelXWB
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 7:38 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 220):
I would have expected them to test new software releases on test airframes, though.

What makes you believe the software was not tested?
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AirlineCritic
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 7:49 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 227):
People are free to believe what they like, however when I have made a clear and unambiguous identification of a problem in the rubbish in the press, that being you don't climb and accelerate if you have a triple engine failure immediately after takeoff.

I agree with that. And airspeeds were pretty stable all the throughout the incident, including descent. It is odd.

Anyway, perhaps we have too little information to make any final conclusions  

Wondering if the issue was with the software, then maybe imbalance might be more easily explained than engines shutting down. Still, I find it difficult to believe that a fueled-up aircraft can develop an imbalance through fuel pumps in one or two minutes.
 
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Finn350
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 1:42 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 221):
Yes, and when you have an actual official Airbus notice to take "necessary actions" for "one-time checks on the electronic control units" ( ref: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...-check-engine-controls-after-crash ) and add that to SPECULATIVE PRESS REPORTS suggesting it's more of a quality/installation issue one can SPECULATE that PERHAPS the wrong software was in use, because indeed no one would expect to see a test of new software on the first flight of an all-new airframe.

Here is the official Airbus notice:

Quote:
May 19, 2015 - Press release

Airbus Defence and Space has today (Tuesday 19 May) sent an Alert Operator Transmission (AOT) to all operators of the A400M informing them about specific checks to be performed on the fleet.

To avoid potential risks in any future flights, Airbus Defence and Space has informed the operators about necessary actions to take. In addition, these results have immediately been shared with the official investigation team.

The AOT requires Operators to perform one-time specific checks of the Electronic Control Units (ECU) on each of the aircraft’s engines before next flight and introduces additional detailed checks to be carried out in the event of any subsequent engine or ECU replacement.

This AOT results from Airbus Defence and Space’s internal analysis and is issued as part of the Continued Airworthiness activities, independently from the on-going Official investigation.
http://airbusdefenceandspace.com/new...ansmission-aot-to-a400m-operators/

According to some sources, it appears to be related how the software is installed, not the actual software.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-32810273

[Edited 2015-05-20 06:44:57]
 
bennett123
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 3:26 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-32810273

BBC also refer to the ECU.

However, if each engine has an ECU, does that mean that the same fault happened on three separate ECU's at the same time?.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 3:40 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 230):
According to some sources, it appears to be related how the software is installed, not the actual software.

http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-3...10273

I'm sure that others will point out that the BBC is just echoing the Reuters report.

What I found interesting in it was:

Quote:

A spokesman for the European planemaker told the BBC that its engineers had since discovered anomalies in the aircraft's data logs that could be relevant to the accident.

whereas the previous statement was:

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 230):
This AOT results from Airbus Defence and Space’s internal analysis and is issued as part of the Continued Airworthiness activities, independently from the on-going Official investigation.

So the earlier Airbus statement emphasized it was discovered independently of the investigation yet the newer statement emphasizes it could be relevant to the accident?
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Finn350
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 3:58 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 232):
So the earlier Airbus statement emphasized it was discovered independently of the investigation yet the newer statement emphasizes it could be relevant to the accident?

Those two assertions are not mutually exclusive. The issue was discovered independently of the investigation (i.e. not by the official investigation team from the DFDR) and the issue discovered is relevant to the accident.

Quoting KarelXWB (Reply 228):
What makes you believe the software was not tested?

At that time I thought the software might have been tested on MSN023, which based on the latest news is not the case.
 
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Revelation
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 4:23 pm

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 233):
Those two assertions are not mutually exclusive.

Correct, but the emphasis in the two Airbus statements has changed in just one day.
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GRIVely
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 10:15 pm

As an early speculator on a software problem being the main cause of the accident I have been watching the subsequent discussions with interest. Software problems are extremely difficult to identify, very expensive to fix and almost impossible to guarantee that particular problem will not recur because the testing conditions have so many unconstrained variables. How can you prove that solving one condition error won't lead to a different set of conditions causing another problem?

My experience lies more with spacecraft and you don't even want to know how many lines of amended code pile up over the years on even the "simplest" subroutines with hundreds of undocumented/undiscovered potentially harmful interactions among disparate systems. Well, airplanes are easier I suppose. The test patient isn't 36,000 kms away.

I wish Airbus luck in solving this problem but if there is this one, there are likely many other potential software problems lurking out there. I wouldn't want to be the manager that is going to sign off on the delinquency report as "fixed." Would take real brass ones to do that.

And really, a software installation problem caused this? Good luck with the lawsuits over that.
 
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Aesma
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Wed May 20, 2015 10:43 pm

Quoting Revelation (Reply 232):
So the earlier Airbus statement emphasized it was discovered independently of the investigation yet the newer statement emphasizes it could be relevant to the accident?

The BBC article says :

Quote:
He added that problems had only been found after the company's investigators had checked both the maintenance data gathered by Airbus's flight-operations team and the logs that had been generated during ground tests of flight MSN23.
"The maintenance data is vast streams of data showing everything going on all over the aeroplane, and one of the things we saw seems as if it could be pertinent to the accident," he said.

So Airbus' internal investigation found this, from the data they have that was accumulated before the flight.
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RickNRoll
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 2:00 am

If they have found a problem with dedicated controller computers and the way they are installed, it could be something to do with hardware as well. Perhaps they were not connected correctly.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 4:31 am

Quoting GRIVely (Reply 235):
How can you prove that solving one condition error won't lead to a different set of conditions causing another problem?

That is what DO178B etc is all about. That is why I can build an ECU for my car using say a ARM Cortex, I dont need any certification for that to drive it on the road, but to build a ECU even for a piston aircraft could be a multi-million dollar exercise.

Quoting RickNRoll (Reply 237):

If they have found a problem with dedicated controller computers and the way they are installed, it could be something to do with hardware as well. Perhaps they were not connected correctly.

The engine certification, which include the EEC software/hardware is not the domain of airframe manufacturers.
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chuchoteur
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 8:32 am

The Electronic Control Unit is part of the A400M FADEC, composed of the ECU and Engine Protection & Monitoring Unit (EPMU). The ECU provides engine control, the EPMU provides engine protection.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 9:01 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 238):
The engine certification, which include the EEC software/hardware is not the domain of airframe manufacturers.

Right up until that engine is hanging off the airframe, of whatever manufacturers product.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 9:42 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 240):
Right up until that engine is hanging off the airframe, of whatever manufacturers product.

The airframe manufacturers has no knowledge of the software inside the EEC, and in most cases the software and EEC is an export controlled item. The engine type certificate, and the continuing airworthiness of the engine remains with the TCDS holder, not the airframe manufacturer.
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Finn350
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Thu May 21, 2015 9:52 pm

Based on the how the issue is described, it might be related to the initialization of the ECU software (i.e. wrong or no parameters stored in the non-volatile memory of the ECU).
 
RickNRoll
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 22, 2015 3:34 am

Quoting Finn350 (Reply 242):
Based on the how the issue is described, it might be related to the initialization of the ECU software (i.e. wrong or no parameters stored in the non-volatile memory of the ECU).

Sounds plausible, which would be why Airbus is confident that it can't happen to any plane already flying. If they manged to get up once, then you know it won't happen again.
 
jupiter2
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 22, 2015 5:26 am

Quoting zeke (Reply 241):
The airframe manufacturers has no knowledge of the software inside the EEC, and in most cases the software and EEC is an export controlled item. The engine type certificate, and the continuing airworthiness of the engine remains with the TCDS holder, not the airframe manufacturer.

Aha, we'll see how that goes when the lawsuits from the unfortunate victims families come up against the engine manufacturer, software/hardware providers and Airbus, if as speculated, it is a software problem with this aircraft.
 
tommy1808
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 22, 2015 12:49 pm

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 244):
Aha, we'll see how that goes when the lawsuits from the unfortunate victims families come up against the engine manufacturer, software/hardware providers and Airbus, if as speculated, it is a software problem with this aircraft.

sure there will be a lawsuit, but the sums involved in such things are pretty low in Europe, so cost wise it will be a none issue As sad as the loss of life is.

Best regards
Thomas
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Fri May 22, 2015 7:16 pm

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 244):

I am not sure what you think a lawsuit may do, it will not change how engines are certified, nor will it change who has the airworthiness responsibility for it.

Please see the TCDS for the engine, you will also see the software certification for the EEC.

http://www.easa.europa.eu/system/fil...H_TP400--D6_engine-04-04092013.pdf
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jupiter2
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 23, 2015 12:37 am

Quoting tommy1808 (Reply 245):

sure there will be a lawsuit, but the sums involved in such things are pretty low in Europe, so cost wise it will be a none issue As sad as the loss of life is.
Quoting zeke (Reply 246):

I am not sure what you think a lawsuit may do, it will not change how engines are certified, nor will it change who has the airworthiness responsibility for it.

Nothing to do with amounts of dollars, all to do with who will be held responsible. Zeke is giving the impression that Airbus will not be held accountable for this accident and that it will be all held on the engine manufacturer and their software supplier. As soon as that engine gets hung off any manufacturers airframe, they are going to be held accountable if something unfortunate was to happen. Sure the engine supplier maybe "more" accountable, but the airframe manufacturer has a duty of care to ensure that all components of the finished product, work as they are meant to and from what has been discussed so far here, if it is as it appears to be, then the finished product has not performed as designed.
 
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zeke
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 23, 2015 1:01 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 247):

I think you are misguided somewhat on who holds the airworthiness responsibility for an engine.

To give a broader example, if a hyperthetical issue was found with the CFM56, it could potentially effect 737/A320/A340/KC135, DC8s etc, it is the engine TCDS holder that is responsible for the airworthiness aspects, raising SB, mods etc.

Airbus could hang any engine off the A400 (exclusive supply contacts aside), as we saw this week they had the first flight of another new engine type on the A320.

If on the other hand Airbus made a production error outside of the engine, then they would have the responsibility to rectify it.
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AngMoh
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RE: Airbus A400 Crashes In Spain

Sat May 23, 2015 11:15 am

Quoting jupiter2 (Reply 247):
Nothing to do with amounts of dollars, all to do with who will be held responsible. Zeke is giving the impression that Airbus will not be held accountable for this accident and that it will be all held on the engine manufacturer and their software supplier. As soon as that engine gets hung off any manufacturers airframe, they are going to be held accountable if something unfortunate was to happen. Sure the engine supplier maybe "more" accountable, but the airframe manufacturer has a duty of care to ensure that all components of the finished product, work as they are meant to and from what has been discussed so far here, if it is as it appears to be, then the finished product has not performed as designed.

There is not going to be a law suit. The accident happened in Europe, not the US. First, you are not going to get a huge payout in Europe, because the concept of "punitive damages" does not exist. If you go to court it will be to maximise the insurance payment for direct losses. Why incur a huge legal fee to get 200k Euro more in payout? The frequent legal cases in the US are driven by a scheme where the family makes deal with a law firm that there is no up front payment to the law firm but fees are deducted from any payout if successful. If the family wins, most money goes to the law firm, if not the law firm loses income (mainly internal hours). This practice is illegal in most countries.
And then there is the small matter that in the US you don't have to pay the other parties legal fees regardless of outcome, but in many cases (including almost everywhere in Europe) you need to pay the other parties costs if you lose. A simple example was recently here in Singapore a case where a paralysed person lost a law suit against a doctor for negligence and ended up having to pay his own legal fees as well as half a million to the doctor and court in legal fees.

Also, this was a test flight so there is an implied acceptance of certain levels of risk which is different from being normal passenger on a commercial flight. Added to that, in Europe you would have to proof gross negligence which is very difficult. And finally, it will go to arbitration before going to court.

Just look about how few court cases there are in Europe for fatal industrial accidents.

This will be settled behind closed doors between Airbus, the families and insurers.
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